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Will the betting shops close permanently after this?

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    #182
    PokeHerKing
    Registered Users Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Except, if you actually read the OP you would see no suggestion of banning gambling. In fact it's written bold letters.

    So whats with the crusade against the brick and mortar, is it the architecture you have issue with?


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    #183
    The Tetrarch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    Augeo wrote: »
    I'd say 99.99% of punters lose. It's a recreational passtime for most and the overround makes winning impossible for most.


    You can decide where to bet.
    Bookmakers charge about 17% average on the big flat meetings, and between 17% and 34% each race on Cheltenham Gold Cup day.
    You can bet on an exchange and pay 5% commission, saving yourself about 15%/20%. With 5% commission you are close to break even.
    My best win was at 75s on the exchange (=70.3/1). The bookies paid 33/1.



    You have no research to prove or support your 99.99% figure.
    I won about 3k last year. Does that mean 9,999 other people lost?
    Again, the internet will not refuse imaginary statistics ... 99.99%.


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    #184
    Hulk Hands
    Registered Users Posts: 6,014 ✭✭✭Hulk Hands


    Augeo wrote: »
    I'd say 99.99% of punters lose. It's a recreational passtime for most and the overround makes winning impossible for most.

    It's long been debated and it's very hard guage as a winning punter, once closed, will open accounts in their sister, wife's, 3rd cousins name and they'll be classed as a winning punter also. There's an active betting community on Twitter and the most common estimate is 3% winners out of the total.

    Those 3% will tend to stake far far higher than a regular punter as they know they have an edge and increase accordingly. So they eat into profit margins far more than 3% which explains why they get so heavily restricted. There's a further group of maybe 5-10% who are break even or close to it. These types have been getting restricted in recent years which gets the ire of many as they really shouldn't . Some firms go safety first if in doubt however

    *That's Sports bettors. All Casino players will lose long term. However it's still a relatively cheap passtime with very small margins (97-99% return to player)


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    #185
    robbiezero
    Registered Users Posts: 4,395 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    The Tetrarch wrote: »
    You can decide where to bet.
    Bookmakers charge about 17% average on the big flat meetings, and between 17% and 34% each race on Cheltenham Gold Cup day.
    You can bet on an exchange and pay 5% commission, saving yourself about 15%/20%. With 5% commission you are close to break even.
    My best win was at 75s on the exchange (=70.3/1). The bookies paid 33/1.



    You have no research to prove or support your 99.99% figure.
    I won about 3k last year. Does that mean 9,999 other people lost?
    Again, the internet will not refuse imaginary statistics ... 99.99%.

    You can select to pay 2% commission now on betfair and forego any of the reward/promotions. Or at least you could a few months ago.


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    #186
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The Tetrarch wrote: »
    You can decide where to bet.
    Bookmakers charge about 17% average on the big flat meetings, and between 17% and 34% each race on Cheltenham Gold Cup day.
    You can bet on an exchange and pay 5% commission, saving yourself about 15%/20%. With 5% commission you are close to break even.
    My best win was at 75s on the exchange (=70.3/1). The bookies paid 33/1.



    You have no research to prove or support your 99.99% figure.
    I won about 3k last year. Does that mean 9,999 other people lost?
    Again, the internet will not refuse imaginary statistics ... 99.99%.


    Lovely spiel but the high street betting offices are full of losing punters.

    What were your total stakes to win 3k? What was your turnover? What did you make in each of the previous 10 years?

    What % of punters are losing in your view?

    It's my opinion by the way not an imaginary stat.


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    #187
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,631 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    loyatemu wrote: »
    I've been reading this book recently; guy gambled €10 million over a few years, towards the end he was lumping tens of thousands of euro on outlandish accumulators based on eastern European football and obscure tennis matches, all while stealing the money from his job as a post office manager. Paddy Power knew he was just an ordinary Joe Soap, they did nothing, they even invited him to the Curragh to hang out with JP McManus etc. (interestingly, and unfortunately for him, he was actually a pretty good gambler, made back about 90% of his bets. If he'd been worse he'd have run out of cash much earlier and probably lost interest; and if he'd been a bit better PP would have closed his account).

    I've gambled a bit in the past, I'm not trying to get on some high horse, but the big gambling companies are morally bankrupt - their disingenuous TV ads make me very angry.

    That case of the postman gambling 10 million with Paddy Power was something else. They knew he was earning 30k per year yet they allowed him bet multiples of that sum. At one point towards the end they allowed him to bet 40,000 euro on a Norwegian Womens Football League game.
    Augeo wrote: »
    Indeed, it was increased from 1% to 2% last year iirc and bookmakers continue to pay it rather than pass it on to the consumer but many offers were cut to compensate (treble odd on one winner in a L15 etc etc etc)

    And tax on gambling was 10% for years until Charlie McCreevy came in and gave the industry a golden ticket by slashing it to 1%. Even when the govt. put it up to 2% last year the bookies were hopping up and down with the 'jobs, jobs, jobs' mantra :rolleyes: They get a complete free ride in comparison to alcohol and cigarettes which are taxed at 60-80% levels. Aside from that theres questions about corporation tax- they're not happy even paying the bargain 12.5%, instead PP and all the main bookies are HQ'd in the Isle of Man with just a handful of employees there.
    robbiezero wrote: »
    That would certainly not be my experience anyway. I think it is rife, particularly on soccer. Any time I watch a match in the pub, lots of people are doing bets on it on their phone.

    Online gambling is huge, no doubt about it. You only have to look at Paddy Powers share price history to see how their business has exploded from it. In 2010 a share in PP was circa 4 euro, by 2014 it was knocking almost 12 euro and was one of the best performing Irish companies on the markets. Then the Betfair merger came and since then they've grown even further. Now they're trying to crack the US markets by partnering with casino operations in Vegas and trying to get state gambling laws overturned. If they crack that the business will easily double in size yet again.


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    #188
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The Tetrarch wrote: »
    You can decide where to bet.
    Bookmakers charge about 17% average on the big flat meetings, and between 17% and 34% each race on Cheltenham Gold Cup day.
    .....


    ......

    I'd say your stats are well out there.

    Throw up a goldcup day race with prices reflecting what you suggest....


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    #189
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The Tetrarch wrote: »
    .....
    You can bet on an exchange and pay 5% commission, saving yourself about 15%/20%. With 5% commission you are close to break even.
    .......
    I won about 3k last year. .....



    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109759587

    Over 200 bets on a close to break even commission rate (your words) you lost 20%..... That 3k winning year is a nice stat alright :D
    Lol :)


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    #190
    Hulk Hands
    Registered Users Posts: 6,014 ✭✭✭Hulk Hands


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    And tax on gambling was 10% for years until Charlie McCreevy came in and gave the industry a golden ticket by slashing it to 1%. Even when the govt. put it up to 2% last year the bookies were hopping up and down with the 'jobs, jobs, jobs' mantra :rolleyes: They get a complete free ride in comparison to alcohol and cigarettes which are taxed at 60-80% levels. Aside from that theres questions about corporation tax- they're not happy even paying the bargain 12.5%, instead PP and all the main bookies are HQ'd in the Isle of Man with just a handful of employees there.

    You don't understand the tax situation too well if you're comparing it to Alcohol or cigarettes. The vast majority of countries tax on revenue. The Irish, probably because they don't understand it, tax turnover. A bookie operates on circa 5% margin. You apply a 5% tax to that then it can't possibly make money. How would it apply a 60% tax like alcohol?

    The 10% tax back in the day is different as that was passed onto the customer. From what I've read, it would be against EU law to apply that these days. In any case, it resulted in customers being charged completely unfairly, with margins over 15% against them. This meant only degenerate gamblers bet. If applied now it would worsen the problem gambling situation, as problem gamblers would lose more, quicker. Recreational gamblers who bet safely would stop betting, stopping that tax intake.

    Secondly, gamblers would simply go online and bet tax free there. We're good enough at the moment to have a few companies paying for licenses, paying tax and giving punters a degree of protection. All that disappears with a punters and it's impossible to police.

    I don't think any major bookmaker operators outta the Isle of man anymore. PP info is a bit off also. The biggest brand there has long been Aus Sportsbet and they've recently merged with Pokerstars and Skybet. PP is a tiny part of that company


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    #191
    The Tetrarch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    Augeo wrote: »
    What were your total stakes to win 3k? What was your turnover? What did you make in each of the previous 10 years?
    What % of punters are losing in your view?
    It's my opinion by the way not an imaginary stat.
    My best year was 20.5k profit. From memory my second best year was 10.6k.
    The most I have lost in a single bet was 715 pounds. The most I won was 12,800 Euro. My biggest bets were 1,100 and 1,000. Both won.
    I got a download from Betfair and Paddy Power of my transacations from when I opened accounts with them and both were in profit.
    Do I keep an annual profit and loss for each of the last ten years? No. That is old school. My accounts are online and if I want info I ask for a download.
    What did I make in each of the last ten years? I don't know or care. I am ahead. It is a hobby, and I have bet on horses since 1969, and have not gone broke yet, despite all the internet wailing about compulsive gamblers.
    I have no idea or opinion about the percentage of losing betters. My own betting is enough to manage.

    I also read the Tony 10 book about 1.75 million Euro stolen from An Post to gamble. A person mentioned earlier in the thread that Tony O'Reilly was a good gambler. He was a clueless, reckless plunger, using free money. He was betting 20k or more on odds-on accumulators on Indonesian soccer, Norwegian ladies soccer, boxing, tennis, and any event that was starting in the next few minutes.
    He had no knowledge of the sports he bet on, and did no research.
    And the An Post internal audit department must not be up to much use either.

    My stakes to win the 3k last year? No idea.
    I had very few bets in 2019. The 3k was mostly from bets on Watch Me at Royal Ascot at 24s and 36s. The rest of the year was uninteresting.
    I don't bet on jumps racing, only flat, and only on Group races.
    Turnover does not concern me. Why would anyone be interested in turnover? You can't bank turnover. I never heard any better talking about their turnover. Profit and Loss is where it's at.


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    #192
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The Tetrarch wrote: »
    ..............
    What did I make in each of the last ten years? I don't know or care. I am ahead. It is a hobby, and I have bet on ........

    Lol.... Every punter is ahead according to themselves..... Up overall.... Yup :pac:

    Your memory seems good on the good years... For someone who doesn't care
    The Tetrarch wrote: »
    My best year was 20.5k profit. From memory my second best year was 10.6k.
    .......


    Your 200 bet log at exchange prices must have been an unusually bad run for such a successfull punter.


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    #193
    The Tetrarch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    Augeo wrote: »
    I'd say your stats are well out there.
    Throw up a goldcup day race with prices reflecting what you suggest....
    It is tough dealing with the clueless.
    I said "Bookmakers charge about 17% average on the big flat meetings, and between 17% and 34% each race on Cheltenham Gold Cup day."
    I looked up the Racing Post Cheltenham Cup day race reports 13th March 2020.
    The over-round is listed at the bottom of each race. They were 122%; 132%; 125%; 117%; 129%; 129%; 134%.

    You would say my stats were well out? :rolleyes:


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    #194
    The Tetrarch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    Augeo wrote: »
    Your 200 bet log at exchange prices must have been an unusually bad run for such a successfull punter.
    If you like I can give you the links to successful bets that I recommended the on Betfair forum, and on the boards.ie forum.

    Does anyone understand his/her above post?
    What is 200 log bet?
    And what is this unusually bad run?


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    #195
    The Tetrarch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    Augeo wrote: »
    Your memory seems good on the good years... For someone who doesn't care
    I have four horses at stud. My hobby is pedigree research. Betting is occasional, and not very important.
    What is much more important is the success of the horses.


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    #196
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The Tetrarch wrote: »
    It is tough dealing with the clueless.
    I said "Bookmakers charge about 17% average on the big flat meetings, and between 17% and 34% each race on Cheltenham Gold Cup day."
    I looked up the Racing Post Cheltenham Cup day race reports 13th March 2020.
    The over-round is listed at the bottom of each race. They were 122%; 132%; 125%; 117%; 129%; 129%; 134%.

    You would say my stats were well out? :rolleyes:


    To be fair you probably checked that before posting initially.


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    #197
    The Tetrarch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    Augeo wrote: »
    To be fair you probably checked that before posting initially.
    I called you out on your post where you said I was wrong.
    You were wrong. You are a clueless guesser.

    Are you going to apologise for your false claims?


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    #198
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The Tetrarch wrote: »
    If you like I can give you the links to successful bets that I recommended the on Betfair forum, and on the boards.ie forum.

    Does anyone understand his/her above post?
    What is 200 log bet?
    And what is this unusually bad run?

    142 losers, 46 winners..... That's 188 bets.....i referred to it as a 200 bet log.... You lost 20% at what you call breakeven odds as they were exchange odds.

    Doesn't tally with thousands of profit annually claims.
    The Tetrarch wrote: »
    I had a thread on the 2015 flat season Group races. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057328262
    142 losers cost €568.00. 46 winners returned €455.79. Loss for year was €112.21 (19.8%)
    In 2019 it is any race, probably maidens, or races with little form.


    Every punter has successful bets..... Much more losing ones though.... As illustrated in your log.


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    #199
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The Tetrarch wrote: »
    I called you out on your post where you said I was wrong.
    You were wrong. You are a clueless guesser.

    Are you going to apologise for your false claims?

    You are a docket flasher / hindsight merchant :)
    As most punters who claim they are up overall are.


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    #200
    The Tetrarch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    First of all the "you must just have looked that up" about the over-round of 17% to 34%.

    I posted on 15th March 2020 on the horse racing forum
    "It shows it at the end of the race reports on the Racing Post website:
    Cheltenham Gold Cup 1990: Total SP: 113%
    Cheltenham Gold Cup 2019: Total SP: 117%" <
    ........................................................................................

    I think you will find that 2014 thread was Euro 4 bets on every Group race on the flat in England, a tiny amount.
    It was an experiment, not serious betting. 146 losers, 46 winners, Loss for year was €112.21 (19.8%). That was not my only betting.

    ........................................................................................

    Here are a few winning bets which I think show my usual bet is not Euro 4

    2012 Betfair forum
    https://community.betfair.com/horse_antepost/go/thread/view/94098/29061313/larc-de-triomphe-2012?pg=27

    07 Oct 12 02:18

    Solemia

    Draw: good
    Stamina: good
    Form: bad
    Ground: suits
    Stamina: good
    Jockey: good
    Odds: 75

    07 Oct 12 15:17
    FRA / Long (FRA) 7th Oct / 15:25
    2400m Grp1 Solemia Back 22599765694 07-Oct-12 01:54 C 75 112.68 75 8,338.32
    2400m Grp1 Solemia Back 22598756804 07-Oct-12 00:32 C 75 70.00 75 5,180.00

    I woke at 16:05 and missed the race.

    Profit Euro 12,842.59 (5% commission)
    .........................................................................................
    2000 Guineas 2016 -30th April 2016

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=113531248

    I am backing Galileo Gold €100 at 12/1.
    Never be afraid of one horse and all that.

    I backed Galileo Gold at 12/1. Euro 100 bet
    His price went out massively. I backed him again at 16.5/1. Euro 100 bet
    That might be the road to the poorhouse.

    Profit Euro 2,707.50
    .........................................................................................
    Royal Ascot - Queen's Vase
    17th June 2016 17:35

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057608074&page=21

    17th June 2016 17:35
    Weld's horse Ebediyin looks a good thing but I like nice odds.
    €20 at 70s Sword Fighter, hammered by Ebediyin last time out when apprentice ridden.

    post#304
    Thanks. Even a blind squirrel can find an acorn. smile.png
    Sword Fighter 67.11 €50.00 €3,305.25

    Profit Euro 3,139.99
    .........................................................................................
    25/05/2019
    Irish 2000 Guineas, The Curragh 15:35
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110270765

    Phoenix Of Spain.... 22.00
    First run this year. Consistent last year.
    Beaten a head by Magna Grecia over 8f in the Group 1 "Racing Post" Trophy at Doncaster "bumped inside final 50yds".
    Previous race 2nd by 1 3/4l to Too Darn Hot over 7f.

    Emaraaty Ana ... 180.03
    18th of 19 in the English Guineas.
    Will do better today as there are only 14 runners. rolleyes.png
    Led for a while by 3 lengths on his own "isolated" in the English 2000 Guineas so has pace.
    Ridden by David Egan in the English Guineas, Andrea Artzeni today.
    Won a Group 2 last year.

    My bet was Euro 50 on Phoenix of Spain at 22s
    Profit Euro 1,995.00
    .........................................................................................
    Royal Ascot 2019
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057990004&page=10

    I had one winner and plenty of seconds this week.
    Today I am going to watch and enjoy
    15:40 Hello Youmzain 10.00
    16:20 Watch Me 24.00

    If Hello Youmzain wins I might put the lot on Watch Me.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057990233&page=6

    I posted that on the end of the day 3 thread

    Watch Me 50.00 36 1,750.00
    Watch Me 50.00 36 1,750.00
    Hello Youmzain 10 20.00
    Watch Me 20.00 24 460.00

    What also helps is Watch Me is by Olympic Glory, the sire of my yearling filly, and that is his first Group 1 winner.

    Profit Euro 3,762.00
    .........................................................................................


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    #201
    Mysterypunter
    Registered Users Posts: 2,812 ✭✭✭Mysterypunter


    Augeo wrote: »
    You are a docket flasher / hindsight merchant :)
    As most punters who claim they are up overall are.
    There is an aftertiming thread for that, I had 500 quid on Bayern Munich to win 5-2, and a score double, Munich 5-2 with a 25-1 winner, but I can't remember what it was. But seriously, over rounds have increased due to price cuts across the board, and new prices like 17-20, 20-23, and the like, I saw a bookmaker match bet the other day, 1.4 vs 2.35. That's 2-5 v 11-8 in old money. Also golf tournaments, 80 players 5 places a fifth the odds, top of the market. 9-2 5-1 6-1 8-1 8-1 14 bar. The top 10 players are 100-105%, and the bookie has 70 players. Only one or none of the top 10 can win, so very limited liability. Everything is a fifth of the odds now as well, no value in ew trebles and accums any more. Bookmakers will kill themselves in the end with greed, but will never die out because of the Addicts. Barney Curley had it spot on when we called them dole recycling shops.


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    #202
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The Tetrarch wrote: »
    First of all the "you must just have looked that up" about the over-round of 17% to 34%.

    I posted on 15th March 2020 on the horse racing forum
    "It shows it at the end of the race reports on the Racing Post website:
    Cheltenham Gold Cup 1990: Total SP: 113%
    Cheltenham Gold Cup 2019: Total SP: 117%" <
    ........................................................................................

    I think you will find that 2014 thread was Euro 4 bets on every Group race on the flat in England, a tiny amount.
    It was an experiment, not serious betting. 146 losers, 46 winners, Loss for year was €112.21 (19.8%). That was not my only betting.

    ........................................................................................

    Here are a few winning bets which I think show my usual bet is not Euro 4

    2012 Betfair forum
    https://community.betfair.com/horse_antepost/go/thread/view/94098/29061313/larc-de-triomphe-2012?pg=27

    07 Oct 12 02:18

    Solemia

    Draw: good
    Stamina: good
    Form: bad
    Ground: suits
    Stamina: good
    Jockey: good
    Odds: 75

    07 Oct 12 15:17
    FRA / Long (FRA) 7th Oct / 15:25
    2400m Grp1 Solemia Back 22599765694 07-Oct-12 01:54 C 75 112.68 75 8,338.32
    2400m Grp1 Solemia Back 22598756804 07-Oct-12 00:32 C 75 70.00 75 5,180.00

    I woke at 16:05 and missed the race.

    Profit Euro 12,842.59 (5% commission)
    .........................................................................................
    2000 Guineas 2016 -30th April 2016

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=113531248

    I am backing Galileo Gold €100 at 12/1.
    Never be afraid of one horse and all that.

    I backed Galileo Gold at 12/1. Euro 100 bet
    His price went out massively. I backed him again at 16.5/1. Euro 100 bet
    That might be the road to the poorhouse.

    Profit Euro 2,707.50
    .........................................................................................
    Royal Ascot - Queen's Vase
    17th June 2016 17:35

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057608074&page=21

    17th June 2016 17:35
    Weld's horse Ebediyin looks a good thing but I like nice odds.
    €20 at 70s Sword Fighter, hammered by Ebediyin last time out when apprentice ridden.

    post#304
    Thanks. Even a blind squirrel can find an acorn. smile.png
    Sword Fighter 67.11 €50.00 €3,305.25

    Profit Euro 3,139.99
    .........................................................................................
    25/05/2019
    Irish 2000 Guineas, The Curragh 15:35
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110270765

    Phoenix Of Spain.... 22.00
    First run this year. Consistent last year.
    Beaten a head by Magna Grecia over 8f in the Group 1 "Racing Post" Trophy at Doncaster "bumped inside final 50yds".
    Previous race 2nd by 1 3/4l to Too Darn Hot over 7f.

    Emaraaty Ana ... 180.03
    18th of 19 in the English Guineas.
    Will do better today as there are only 14 runners. rolleyes.png
    Led for a while by 3 lengths on his own "isolated" in the English 2000 Guineas so has pace.
    Ridden by David Egan in the English Guineas, Andrea Artzeni today.
    Won a Group 2 last year.

    My bet was Euro 50 on Phoenix of Spain at 22s
    Profit Euro 1,995.00
    .........................................................................................
    Royal Ascot 2019
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057990004&page=10

    I had one winner and plenty of seconds this week.
    Today I am going to watch and enjoy
    15:40 Hello Youmzain 10.00
    16:20 Watch Me 24.00

    If Hello Youmzain wins I might put the lot on Watch Me.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057990233&page=6

    I posted that on the end of the day 3 thread

    Watch Me 50.00 36 1,750.00
    Watch Me 50.00 36 1,750.00
    Hello Youmzain 10 20.00
    Watch Me 20.00 24 460.00

    What also helps is Watch Me is by Olympic Glory, the sire of my yearling filly, and that is his first Group 1 winner.

    Profit Euro 3,762.00
    .........................................................................................


    What about losers?
    Stereotypical punter... You can only tell about your winners.
    Your betting log shows losers and a 20% loss at prices you describe as break even over nearly 190 bets :pac:

    You likely had hundreds on all the yokes in your log too but you won't be telling us that.

    Like you didn't detail stakes until after the races. Pre race it was watch & enjoy.... Keep going

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110493932&postcount=78


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    #203
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,631 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Hulk Hands wrote: »
    You don't understand the tax situation too well if you're comparing it to Alcohol or cigarettes. The vast majority of countries tax on revenue. The Irish, probably because they don't understand it, tax turnover. A bookie operates on circa 5% margin. You apply a 5% tax to that then it can't possibly make money. How would it apply a 60% tax like alcohol?

    The 10% tax back in the day is different as that was passed onto the customer. From what I've read, it would be against EU law to apply that these days. In any case, it resulted in customers being charged completely unfairly, with margins over 15% against them. This meant only degenerate gamblers bet. If applied now it would worsen the problem gambling situation, as problem gamblers would lose more, quicker. Recreational gamblers who bet safely would stop betting, stopping that tax intake.

    Secondly, gamblers would simply go online and bet tax free there. We're good enough at the moment to have a few companies paying for licenses, paying tax and giving punters a degree of protection. All that disappears with a punters and it's impossible to police.

    I don't think any major bookmaker operators outta the Isle of man anymore. PP info is a bit off also. The biggest brand there has long been Aus Sportsbet and they've recently merged with Pokerstars and Skybet. PP is a tiny part of that company

    Im not suggesting that the tax on it should be like alcohol and cigarettes, just pointing out that the bookies are getting a free ride paying 2% tax when they used to be paying 10% before Champagne Charlie McCreevy came in and gave them a golden ticket. And on that they werent put out of business when it was 10% and managed perfectly fine so I dont see why it would be any different now, they would just adjust their odds to reflect what is a fair tax. The costs of problem gambling are mainly borne by society so we should at least be making sure they wash their face in this regard, the lip service to 'Gamble Responsibly' isnt enough. That postman cost An Post 10 million quid in stolen money, ultimately its the taxpayer on the hook for that as An Post are a semi state company.

    Paddy Power were at least based on the Isle of Man and paying next to nothing in corporation tax three years ago- Phoenix did a big write up about it at the time. Not sure what their status is now, they might be moved to Gibraltar. Whereever they are they are paying feck all in tax. Its a Europe wide problem with bookies that eventually the EU will catch up with.


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    #204
    The Tetrarch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    Augeo wrote: »
    What about losers?
    Stereotypical punter... You cab only tell about your winners.
    Your betting log shows losers and a 20% loss at prices you describe as break even over nearly 190 bets :pac:

    You likely had hundreds on all the yokes in your log too but you won't be telling us that.
    I know it must be severely disppointing to the troll that I listed winning bets advised to this form and the Betfair forum that returned a profit of Euro 24,407.08.
    Your point that I lost Euro 112.21 in an experiment betting Euro 4 on all the Group races in England is interesting to you (1/217th of those winnings).

    I think the people on the forum that followed my advice and backed winners at 70/1, 14/1; 66/1; 21/1; 33/1 would not be too bothered with your flaming.

    I called you out on your statement in post #188 that "you are well out there" on over-rounds. I was 100% accurate.
    You have not apologised for your false comment.

    "You likely had hundreds on all the yokes in your log too but you won't be telling us that"
    Again, you are flaming. But, hey, that is a life you have chosen.


  • Options
    #205
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The Tetrarch wrote: »
    I know it must be severely disppointing to the troll that I listed winning bets advised to this form and the Betfair forum that returned a profit of Euro 24,407.08.
    Your point that I lost Euro 112.21 in an experiment betting Euro 4 on all the Group races in England is interesting to you (1/217th of those winnings).

    I think the people on the forum that followed my advice and backed winners at 70/1, 14/1; 66/1; 21/1; 33/1 would not be too bothered with your flaming.

    I called you out on your statement in post #188 that "you are well out there" on over-rounds. I was 100% accurate.
    You have not apologised for your false comment.

    "You likely had hundreds on all the yokes in your log too but you won't be telling us that"
    Again, you are flaming. But, hey, that is a life you have chosen.


    Watch & enjoy and aftertime the following.

    .....
    I posted that on the end of the day 3 thread

    Watch Me 50.00 36 1,750.00
    Watch Me 50.00 36 1,750.00
    Hello Youmzain 10 20.00
    Watch Me 20.00 24 460.00

    What also helps is Watch Me is by Olympic Glory, the sire of my yearling filly, and that is his first Group 1 winner.

    Profit Euro 3,762.00

    A docketflasher ..... Nothing more. There's a few in every betting shop :D

    I hope no one followed your betting log.


  • Options
    #206
    The Tetrarch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    Augeo wrote: »
    I hope no one followed your betting log.
    What is worrying is my username was diomed when I kept the thread on the Euro 4 bets on the 2015 English Group races.
    My username now is The Tetrarch, but Augeo must have followed me around just to troll me.
    How did you know I was diomed, and now I am The Tetrarch? Do you work for boards.ie?

    All the winning bets I posted were advised on this forum and the Betfair forum before the race, with the amounts I had bet at the time of the original post.
    In the case of Galileo Gold in the English 2000 Guineas I bet 100, and later bet another 100 before the off when the price increased from 12s to 18.5.
    In the case of Watch Me, I advised a 20 bet at 24s. The price increased to 36s just before the off, and I bet 100 at 36s.

    Augeo has obviously followed all the links I posted to check the times of the posts.
    I decided to bet 100 at 36s on Watch Me just before the off, and mentioned it after the race.
    Should I have logged onto the boards.ie thread, reported the 100 bet, then found the race was running, and missed the bet?

    Augeo is a stalker, a troll, and a flamer. A very sad person.


  • Options
    #207
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The Tetrarch wrote: »
    What is worrying is my username was diomed when I kept the thread on the Euro 4 bets on the 2015 English Group races.
    My username now is The Tetrarch, but Augeo must have followed me around just to troll me.
    How did you know I was diomed, and now I am The Tetrarch? Do you work for boards.ie?

    .......

    Augeo is a stalker, a troll, and a flamer. A very sad person.
    Mmmmm .... The below post should explain it..... One doesn't need to work for boards.ie

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109759587

    You're an aftertiming docket flasher.

    Watch & enjoy.... No stakes mentioned.

    No need to get abusive old boy...... Chill....


  • Options
    #208
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,347 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Im not suggesting that the tax on it should be like alcohol and cigarettes, just pointing out that the bookies are getting a free ride paying 2% tax when they used to be paying 10% before Champagne Charlie McCreevy came in and gave them a golden ticket. And on that they werent put out of business when it was 10% and managed perfectly fine so I dont see why it would be any different now, they would just adjust their odds to reflect what is a fair tax.

    The maths of betting continues to evade you and most non-punters.

    If I go into the pub on a Saturday morning with €100 and drink all day, then the most I'll spend is €100.
    If I go into Arnotts on a Saturday morning with €100 and buy clothes all day, then the most I'll spend is €100.

    However, if I go into the bookies on a Saturday morning with €100 and bet all day, then it would be perfectly normal for my total bets to be over €1K. I may never have been up or down much more than a few percent of my initial €100 but I can turnover a multiple of it and stand still.

    A 10% tax on my €1K of betting would be €100. But hey, I only started with €100 anyway, so the government would get everything and the bookie get nothing. That doesn't make any sense (why should the bookie even stay in business on those terms). Hence the compromise of a turnover tax at what seems a low rate of 2%.
    But ultimately it means the government gets around €20 of initial €100 if I turnover €1K of bets. 20% is pretty much in line with what the government would get if I spent it on alcohol or clothes instead.


  • Options
    #209
    The Tetrarch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    Augeo wrote: »
    Mmmmm .... The below post should explain it..... One doesn't need to work for boards.ie

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109759587

    You're an aftertiming docket flasher.
    Watch & enjoy.... No stakes mentioned.
    No need to get abusive old boy...... Chill....
    Yes, I am an old person. I am 69 years old.
    I started that thread in 2019, but did not continue it.
    I had four bets on that thread, and did mention the stake each time.
    It was Euro 10, and I lost four bets.


  • Options
    #210
    peddlelies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 840 ✭✭✭peddlelies


    Play poker and compete against other players, it's easily as strategic as chess with some short term luck ( i.e. variance in a single hand ) but none long term. Most other forms of gambling imo are a fools game


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  • Options
    #211
    raheny red
    Registered Users Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭raheny red


    Dr. Bre wrote: »
    So when are they expected to reopen ? Same time as pubs?

    June 29th. PP bringing staff back on the 22nd for training on social distancing etc.


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