Can't Find a Marriage?

clashburke · 04-08-2015 3:36pm #1

I've hit a wall, in a place there should be loads of information available!

I'm looking for the marriage of Martin Murphy to Johanna ? (maybe Doyle) in about 1892.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wexford/Bolaboy/Ballynamonabeg/1791604/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wexford/Bolaboy/Ballynamonabeg/682529/

I think Johanna's maiden name maybe Doyle from looking at the maiden name of the mother given on irishgeneology.ie for the post 1900 births of the children in Enniscourty. I've checked FMP.ie and nothings showing. Any ideas?

Thomas from Presence · 07-08-2015 11:58am

They were very late in life having kids for the time so that marriage could have a range of 1880 to 1890. It looks like you'll need to subscribe to RootsIreland.ie to see if there's anything happening there.

pinkypinky · 07-08-2015 12:39pm

Have you ruled out this marriage?

First name(s) Martin
Last name Murphy
Registration year 1878
Registered Quarter/Year Jan - Mar 1878
Registration district Gorey
Volume 2
Page 914
County -
MarriageFinder™ Martin Murphy married one of these people
Margaret Sunderland, Johanna Doyle, Mary Ann Evans, Anne Donnelly

clashburke · 07-08-2015 2:45pm

Thomas from Presence wrote: »

They were very late in life having kids for the time so that marriage could have a range of 1880 to 1890. It looks like you'll need to subscribe to RootsIreland.ie to see if there's anything happening there.

Unfortunately The parish that there from isn't on roots as of yet.

pinkypinky wrote: »

Have you ruled out this marriage?

First name(s) Martin
Last name Murphy
Registration year 1878
Registered Quarter/Year Jan - Mar 1878
Registration district Gorey
Volume 2
Page 914
County -
MarriageFinder™ Martin Murphy married one of these people
Margaret Sunderland, Johanna Doyle, Mary Ann Evans, Anne Donnelly

Thanks for that pinky, that marriage hasn't came up in my searches for some reason? It could well be it, although the year from the census would be 1892 so quite a big difference, especially considering all the other years in the two census are within 1/2 years of proper date!

clashburke · 07-08-2015 3:07pm

I'm pretty sure its not that marriage as from the Gorey parish register in Feb 1878

James Murphy married Johanna Doyle
Martin Murphy married Anne Donally

http://137.191.249.36/registers/vtls000634071#page/35/mode/1up

Looks like a blank again!!

KildareFan · 08-08-2015 12:52pm

Maybe Martin and James were brothers and Johanna teamed up with Martin when both James and Anne died? A man could not marry his dead brother's widow legally in those days, so maybe they just got together?

You would need to get the marriage certs for James and Martin to see if they were brothers - pity the parish registers don't record the parents.

CeannRua · 08-08-2015 9:02pm

KildareFan wrote: »

Maybe Martin and James were brothers and Johanna teamed up with Martin when both James and Anne died? A man could not marry his dead brother's widow legally in those days, so maybe they just got together?

You would need to get the marriage certs for James and Martin to see if they were brothers - pity the parish registers don't record the parents.

Which law applies here?

Maybe the marriage just wasn't registered.

KildareFan · 08-08-2015 9:42pm

"The Deceased Wife’s Sister Act 1907 and the Deceased Husband’s Widow’s Marriage Act 1921 allow a man to marry his deceased wife’s sister and a woman to marry her deceased husband’s brother." http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/getting_married/legal_prerequisites_for_marriage.html

So before 1921 it was illegal under civil law for a man to marry the wife of his deceased brother. I would speculate that our Martin and Johanna had some sort of blessing on their union but the 'marriage' was never registered as it was illegal. One way of finding out if this speculation is correct is to find out if Martin and James were brothers.

CeannRua · 08-08-2015 10:16pm

KildareFan wrote: »

"The Deceased Wife’s Sister Act 1907 and the Deceased Husband’s Widow’s Marriage Act 1921 allow a man to marry his deceased wife’s sister and a woman to marry her deceased husband’s brother." http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/getting_married/legal_prerequisites_for_marriage.html

So before 1921 it was illegal under civil law for a man to marry the wife of his deceased brother. I would speculate that our Martin and Johanna had some sort of blessing on their union but the 'marriage' was never registered as it was illegal. One way of finding out if this speculation is correct is to find out if Martin and James were brothers.

The 1907 Act begins:
No marriage heretofore or hereafter contracted between a man and his deceased wife’s sister, within the realm or without, shall be deemed to have been or shall be void or voidable, as a civil contract, by reason only of such affinity: Provided always that no clergyman in holy orders of the Church of England shall be liable to any suit, penalty, or censure, whether civil or ecclesiastical, for anything done or omitted to be done by him in the performance of the duties of his office to which suit, penalty, or censure he would not have been liable if this Act had not been passed.

Looking at the first first three words, I wonder if these marriages weren't already taking place and this legislation was just providing for them. The 1921 Act is just a carbon copy of the 1907 Act. Also, this refers to Church of England. Wonder if the RC Church was granting dispensations to get over the affinity issue.

pinkypinky · 09-08-2015 12:41am

CeannRua wrote: »

The 1907 Act begins:
No marriage heretofore or hereafter contracted between a man and his deceased wife’s sister, within the realm or without, shall be deemed to have been or shall be void or voidable, as a civil contract, by reason only of such affinity: Provided always that no clergyman in holy orders of the Church of England shall be liable to any suit, penalty, or censure, whether civil or ecclesiastical, for anything done or omitted to be done by him in the performance of the duties of his office to which suit, penalty, or censure he would not have been liable if this Act had not been passed.

Looking at the first first three words, I wonder if these marriages weren't already taking place and this legislation was just providing for them. The 1921 Act is just a carbon copy of the 1907 Act. Also, this refers to Church of England. Wonder if the RC Church was granting dispensations to get over the affinity issue.

There is proof in my family tree it was happening. The priest was hardly asking each couple if he/she happened to be marrying their deceased spouse's sibling.

dido2 · 09-08-2015 1:36am

Maybe get the birth certs for one or two of the oldest children and see what the mothers maiden name is??

clashburke · 09-08-2015 1:07pm

thanks folks.

I'll order a birth cert and get the mothers name for sure and go from there. I might try and see if Martin and James were brothers as well, if the birth cert doesn't give a new clue

CeannRua · 09-08-2015 6:57pm

clashburke wrote: »

thanks folks.

I'll order a birth cert and get the mothers name for sure and go from there. I might try and see if Martin and James were brothers as well, if the birth cert doesn't give a new clue

Have you tried the parish to see if they have a record?

This tree claims the James Murphy/Johanna Doyle combination who married in Gorey in Feb 1878. Still married in 1911 http://www.shamrockspider.com/genealogy/familygroup.php?familyID=F158&tree=MWTNG7

Can't Find a Marriage?

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