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11-09-2010, 06:35   #31
Princess Consuela Bananahammock
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Part of the problem is that you are trying to reason all the time with them. There seems to be this idea that we must treat children like little adults, and through talk & logic/reasoning then they will understand right from wrong. And that they will care. The problem though is that for small children they're still learning the boundaries in the world, and frankly they don't understand enough to care (as would an adult). Adults have learned that there are consequences (often rather harsh ones) to actions of stupidity or aggression. Children haven't, and to constantly shelter them from that sets them up for the fall.

A small smack for attacking (and i do mean attacking) their sister is a rather good introduction to those boundaries. An explanation & telling them how disappointed you are in them only goes so far. Basically it rests on how much they value your opinion of them. And yet you have to also remember that for small children time is relative. They fully expect others to forget if they have done something wrong ten minutes ago, simply because they do themselves. Therefore, the odd time, something more than a harsh word is needed.



There are good ways to use corporal punishment and bad ways. If done immediately after a child does something wrong, then it creates a buffer against it happening again. However if it is left for 5 minutes or later that evening when Dad gets home, the lesson loses meaning. Then its "just" a beating with no real relationship to the action. The child will already have lost the real memory of the incident and can attribute the punishment to just about anything under the sun.

As I said earlier there are times when corporal punishment are useful. Its a tool. A very effective tool if used correctly. But anyone can take the most perfect tool or device and screw it up if they don't think before using it. Corporal punishment should never be done in anger and always with a firm reason made clear to everyone involved.

Let me draw an example. I worked in a private school in China, and was farmed (hired) out to government public schools at different stages for extra money. The private school was where parents with money sent their kids in the evening after public school to get extra tuition in English. Public schools are free and can be attended by anyone. The private school students were treated like kings both by parents and teachers alike. We sucked up to them, because that was how their parents wanted it, and it showed in the behavior of most of the students. Some were lovely, but most were little ****s. The public school students on the other hand weren't allowed any amount of leeway in behavior. I've seen a female teacher hit open palm across the face of two students looking at their phones in class. The school supported the teacher as did the parents. The students were perfect in their behavior for the most part, and extremely respectful after school.

I'm not saying either way is better. A mix of the two would be a better set up. Children should be encouraged to grow, but as adults we should be there to step in when they're doing something foolish, or dangerous. And sometimes a slap is what is needed.
How do you difine "trying to reason with them all of the time"? I'm not a parent of a 2 year old, but as I said, I know plenty of them who are well able to communicate and reason with their two year old and two year old know EXACTLY where the boundaries are and what is and is not expecte of them. Consequently, I know some very confused two year olds who get smacked and have no idea whay hlaf of the time.

Also, as I said earlier, you seem to think non-corporal punishment means a quck no and moving on. Kid is smacking other kids? Weredid he learn that i wonder? Remove kid from situation and isolate. Simple. And yes you can explain to them why and tell them what you expect from them. A slap is never "needed" - as I have pointed out, it is possible to raise kids without slapping. In Scandanavia yo u can be fined for it, and yet... they don't have confused kids! I winder why?
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11-09-2010, 14:27   #32
Mary Hairy
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When you were growing up in this country young girls were being given into what was basically a life of slavery in places like the Magdalene Laundries. Young boys were being raped and beaten to within an inch of their lives in Christian Brothers schools and industrial schools while adults the country over turned a blind eye. The kids took what was done to them and never complained because adults were always in the right and children were always in the wrong and if they disagreed or objected they were beaten with canes purchased in the local post office.

Forgive us if we don't all look back on the good old days that you grew up in with smiles on our faces and a twinkle in our eyes and pray every day that things could go back to the way they once were.






Honestly, I just can't even tell if people are being serious or not on this website anymore.
Young and not so young women went into Magdalene Homes voluntarily. They knew their prescence would not be tolerated in society. Not one resident of a Magdalene home ever brought a habeus corpus application. They went into the Magdalene home for sanctuary, discipline and rehabilitation.
As for the Industrial Schools, they are an early example of how light touch regulation failed. Most of the inmates were there had committed crimes and the fact that children could be sent away acted as a deterrent to others. The fact that some crimes were allegedly commited by persons in charge does not justify the proposition that children should not be subject to proper discipline and control.
parents knwe that if they didn't discipline their children properly they would be sent to the nuns and brothers who would do it instead. parents knew that giving a few strokes of the cane at home would save the child from a much more severe regime in an industrial school.
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11-09-2010, 15:49   #33
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Young and not so young women went into Magdalene Homes voluntarily. They knew their prescence would not be tolerated in society. Not one resident of a Magdalene home ever brought a habeus corpus application. They went into the Magdalene home for sanctuary, discipline and rehabilitation.
As for the Industrial Schools, they are an early example of how light touch regulation failed. Most of the inmates were there had committed crimes and the fact that children could be sent away acted as a deterrent to others. The fact that some crimes were allegedly commited by persons in charge does not justify the proposition that children should not be subject to proper discipline and control.
parents knwe that if they didn't discipline their children properly they would be sent to the nuns and brothers who would do it instead. parents knew that giving a few strokes of the cane at home would save the child from a much more severe regime in an industrial school.
I'm speechless. So bring back the laundries in your opinion? I've no interest in discussing this with you any further so. In my opinion society is in a constant state of progression. I believe that things were better 100 years ago than they were 400 years ago, and were better 50 years ago than they were 100 years ago. If you disagree with that then in my opinion you are so completely divorced from reality I would be wasting my time. Have fun treating your children like they are your property.

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11-09-2010, 15:58   #34
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Great... go back 30-40 years, and talk about the worst offenses? Why not go back 100 years to compare?
Yes, why not go back 100 years to compare? Or 400 years. Mary was longing for the good old days. Are you really one of these people as well that believes things were so much better back 33 years ago or 100 years ago or 400 years ago? Or did you completely miss the point of both Mary's post and mine?
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11-09-2010, 17:18   #35
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To be honest, I think taconnal has won me over. I was on the fence on this issue, thinking that a few smacks here and there weren't that bad, but his/her arguments about children not being in receipt of the same respect adults are, really rang true for me. Corporal punishment doesn't send the best message to a child. If, for example, they are caught fighting with other children, how can you legitimately discipline them by basically repeating what they have been at?

The best course of action, it would seem, is to be such a parent that physical discipline will never be needed.

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In my opinion society is in a constant state of progression. I believe that things were better 100 years ago than they were 400 years ago, and were better 50 years ago than they were 100 years ago.
Well, that isn't universally true: things were better in Greece during the classical era than the dark ages that followed. In places like Africa it's questionable to talk of progress. But in terms of Europe now, that would seem to be the case, if you take certain criteria. (Liberty for the individual is something you can't really say is improving, for example.) It will be interesting, a thousand years down the line, to see if this holds.

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11-09-2010, 17:35   #36
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Well, that isn't universally true: things were better in Greece during the classical era than the dark ages that followed. In places like Africa it's questionable to talk of progress. But in terms of Europe now, that would seem to be the case, if you take certain criteria. (Liberty for the individual is something you can't really say is improving, for example.) It will be interesting, a thousand years down the line, to see if this holds.
I agree, human society changes all the time but I don't necessarily think it is progressive. For all the knoweldge and understanding we gain we lose or forget just as much. I think we follow a more cyclical pattern really.
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11-09-2010, 18:27   #37
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You're missing the point. Its about discipline. I made the point that this is not just about corporal punishment. Its about parental supervision, and a host of other factors.

on the suject of parental supervsion. what kind of parents let their 12 year old daughter go out by herself at midnight?
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11-09-2010, 18:37   #38
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Corporal punishment was abolished in state (free education) schools in 1982. If you are 33 years old canes were not allowed when you were at school. Even raps on the head, clutching of the ear was not allowed. I know two former lay teachers in a Marist school who were charged with assault.

in the eighties some kids lived in fear and clips were still given. these days teachers live in fear. in some schools it would not be unusual for little johnny to take a swipe at the teacher. he has little to fear, maybe a one day suspension. many teachers would rather get a broken nose than fend off a blow as by trying to defend yourself would be deemed as an assault on the pupil.

at the moment the worst possible jobs to have must be a tecaher or priest. phyisacl contact of any kind is taboo.a gratulatory pat on the back is a sexual assault, a handsake physical assault, rasing your voice a verbal assault.
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11-09-2010, 18:41   #39
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[.
As for the Industrial Schools, they are an early example of how light touch regulation failed. Most of the inmates were there had committed crimes and the fact that children could be sent away acted as a deterrent to others. The fact that some crimes were allegedly commited by persons in charge does not justify the proposition that children should not be subject to proper discipline and control.
parents knwe that if they didn't discipline their children properly they would be sent to the nuns and brothers who would do it instead. parents knew that giving a few strokes of the cane at home would save the child from a much more severe regime in an industrial school.[/QUOTE]

in the eighties parents threatened their children with Letterfrack en lieu of hitting them. it may not be PC to say it, but many of those in such schools were gurriers. the difference between then and now is that the gurrier today gets away with a lot more.
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11-09-2010, 19:00   #40
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in the eighties some kids lived in fear and clips were still given. these days teachers live in fear. in some schools it would not be unusual for little johnny to take a swipe at the teacher. he has little to fear, maybe a one day suspension. many teachers would rather get a broken nose than fend off a blow as by trying to defend yourself would be deemed as an assault on the pupil.

at the moment the worst possible jobs to have must be a tecaher or priest. phyisacl contact of any kind is taboo.a gratulatory pat on the back is a sexual assault, a handsake physical assault, rasing your voice a verbal assault.
While true, this is nthing to do with the debate at hand as it's more a reult of media overreaction. Also, if you're a teacher and you hit a kid, guarantee you'll be facing a civil case even if the kid is used to phzsical discipline at home.

If little Johnny takes a swipe at his teacher, I'm willing to guess he learnt it at home.


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in the eighties parents threatened their children with Letterfrack en lieu of hitting them. it may not be PC to say it, but many of those in such schools were gurriers. the difference between then and now is that the gurrier today gets away with a lot more.
It might not be PC to say this either, but many of these guerriers are probably used to being struck at home.

I'm sorry, but your arguement only holds up if you can prove that these kids were NOT subjected to corporal punishment at home and completly collapses if they were.
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12-09-2010, 11:12   #41
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Corporal punishment was abolished in state (free education) schools in 1982. If you are 33 years old canes were not allowed when you were at school. Even raps on the head, clutching of the ear was not allowed. I know two former lay teachers in a Marist school who were charged with assault.
There's a big difference between what is made law and what is enforced. As with anything that has gone on for so long, it continued past the point of the law being introduced. As I said, the beatings were gone, it was lesser forms of corporal punishment (which didn't leave marks).

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I'm speechless. So bring back the laundries in your opinion? I've no interest in discussing this with you any further so. In my opinion society is in a constant state of progression. I believe that things were better 100 years ago than they were 400 years ago, and were better 50 years ago than they were 100 years ago. If you disagree with that then in my opinion you are so completely divorced from reality I would be wasting my time. Have fun treating your children like they are your property.
That's not what she said and you know it. She said that just because it was taken to extremes in some schools/organisations that the whole method should not be removed. She also said that parents sent their children to these schools because they expected their children to receive a discipline & education that went beyond that of the state schools, not that they expected them to be abused... And the reputation of many of these schools reinforced such a belief. My Mother went to a convent boarding school in Carlow and told me the type of life they had. Harsh, but as she said it, very common to the time. Parents sent their children to school environments similar to what they themselves had received, and believed the discipline received was worth it.

I never want to go back to those days. I wouldn't have liked to gone to such schools, and neither would I want any children to go to them.

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Yes, why not go back 100 years to compare? Or 400 years. Mary was longing for the good old days. Are you really one of these people as well that believes things were so much better back 33 years ago or 100 years ago or 400 years ago? Or did you completely miss the point of both Mary's post and mine?
You've obviously misread what I wrote. I said I would prefer things to go back to when I was in school. The limited form of corporal punishment which we received was enough. I haven't said anything about going back to using canes or such.

And I did get what you both wrote, but I don't see why the extreme must be used.

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on the suject of parental supervsion. what kind of parents let their 12 year old daughter go out by herself at midnight?
Bad ones? I certainly would think so. And I would apply that to any child (male or female) under 16 to be allowed past 10pm.

Interesting that the age has dropped between postings....
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12-09-2010, 21:31   #42
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Whilst I would agree that there is an increase in social delinquency amongst children and teenagers, I am against smacking / corporeal punishment. I believe it causes more harm than good. When smacking or beating your kids was socially acceptable it was a bad thing but equally the pendulum has swung too far the other way which is equally bad for children, they now have no boundaries.

Hitting children in my opinion makes them either aggressive, overly passive and fearful, lose their confidence and the pattern repeats itself.

Children who receive little or no punishment eg: grounding, removal of privileges etc feel unloved, abandoned and insignificant, as well causing anti social behaviour and aggressiveness.

The key to disciplining children is balance and it has to be age appropriate. It is true you cannot reason with a 2 year old but you don't need to resort to smacking. A parent has to be firm and consistent, their no must mean no. Clear boundaries have to be established, for example if a 2 year old won't eat their food, then remove the plate and give them nothing else until the next meal time.

If a ten year old gives cheek a parent needs to challenge it and tell them its not acceptable. For instance I would remove privileges such as game time playing or write lines or do chores. What I have learned is consistency, now I wasn't always consistent but when I realised that it worked I became a better parent and my child felt both safer and happier.

Children will always try to push the boundaries to test if they are safe, it is part of being a kid, it is essential for parents to maintain them. I agree it is wrong for young children to out late at night, I don't allow it. A parent does not need to physically assault their child to get them to behave and to me it should be a crime to do hit or smack your child.

I think sometimes people get confused with smacking and discipline, they are not the same thing. One is assault, the other is ensuring the safety of the child and society in general.
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14-09-2010, 05:59   #43
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I thinks my parents were too soft on me. After I left home I was in a houseshare. I kept going as I had at home, being messy and so on. One day my flatmates held me down on my bed and beat my bum with a hairbrush for being such a slob. I soon got my act together. My mother always went around picking up after me. When I got mediocre results at school she would say I was great and wasn't school very hard nowadays. If my mother had given me a few spankings for being lazy at school I am sure I would have done much better.
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14-09-2010, 13:35   #44
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Thats the problem with this topic. Anyone who believes in corporal punishment is albelled asa deviant. I had to buy a new cane recently as my eldest daughter will be 14 shortly, and the only place I could buy one was in a sex shop. If anybody who knew me saw me copming or going from the sex shop they would have assumed I was going in for the DVDs or so called "sex toys".
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14-09-2010, 15:27   #45
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To be honest, I think taconnal has won me over. I was on the fence on this issue, thinking that a few smacks here and there weren't that bad, but his/her arguments about children not being in receipt of the same respect adults are, really rang true for me. Corporal punishment doesn't send the best message to a child. If, for example, they are caught fighting with other children, how can you legitimately discipline them by basically repeating what they have been at?

The best course of action, it would seem, is to be such a parent that physical discipline will never be needed.



Well, that isn't universally true: things were better in Greece during the classical era than the dark ages that followed. In places like Africa it's questionable to talk of progress. But in terms of Europe now, that would seem to be the case, if you take certain criteria. (Liberty for the individual is something you can't really say is improving, for example.) It will be interesting, a thousand years down the line, to see if this holds.
I've been on the NYC subway where I've seen kids getting a good wollopping from their mother. I've seen it on meath street too. I don't think violence actually raises polite, kind, decent people. I think if they do end up decent and kind, its despite the beatings, not because of them.

My father went to a very reputable Irish boarding school. He often said the molestations were better than the beatings. Interesting eh?

What I have noticed with my own son is this. That if I scold him too hard, ive lost. People like to backseat parent and say why don't you just tell him sternly to "___________' or "___________" when he does x or y, and its usually from people who don't have kids or know nothing about them. He is only three now, but it is the same now as it was at two. If my reaction causes him to cry, whether through severity or tone, he cant hear me. He cant actually hear why what he did was wrong or dangerous and then what was the point? How will he learn.

As for school - they teachers have no recourse because nothing has been subsituted for the corporal punishment. I had no corporal punishment but there was no fear of students or anything like that.

And if a teacher ever hit my child, I would quite gladly give him or her a belt right back.
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