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17-05-2010, 10:40   #16
reilig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostCovey View Post
There's not much point in getting into this science versus magic argument. I doubt we'll agree.

However, let's keep this factual. The normal course of orf in any animal is ONE WEEK in the vast majority of cases. This is well known, and well established by trials, and in field outbreaks. For centuries. If your sheep had a similar skin condition that lasted three weeks, it was something else. An outbreak can go on for whatever length, as animals pick up infections, but each individual clears up in a week, unless they get something else.

If you believe in magic and it works for you, good luck. In fairness, science doesn't offer much in the treatment of orf. Neither does magic.

If anyone could really cure it, they would be on the road to wealth.


LostCovey

Your argument appears unresearched. Do you keep lambs or are you just giving your opinion?

Before chemicals were available, farmers used people with cures for to treat most illnesses in animals. Just because you don't know anyone who uses these does not mean that they are "Black magic" or anything to be made a joke of like you did above. In reality you are making the joke of your own ignorance to cures.

Secondly, Blue Stone and washing soda are not harsh chemicals. Blue Stone has been used for hundreds of years to dose cattle and sheep for fluke, to treat foot rot and to treat orf. It is an organic treatment and does not have a meat withdrawal period. Washing soda kills germs - its anti-bacterial and has been used for this purpose for many years before dettol or savlon were produced.

Also, there has been some extensve research done on orf in lambs in the uk. They claim that the normal course of Orf in Lambs is SEVEN to TEN WEEKS. Maybe our lambs are more immune than theirs, but I really doubt it.

References are here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orf_(disease)
http://www.moredun.org.uk/feature-article.asp?ref=194
http://www.apd.reading.ac.uk/AgEcon/.../sheep/orf.htm

Last edited by reilig; 17-05-2010 at 10:59.
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18-05-2010, 01:06   #17
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Hi Reilig,

You don't give up, i'll give you that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reilig View Post
Your argument appears unresearched.
Better researched than the witchdoctor and carving knife approach you suggest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reilig View Post
Do you keep lambs or are you just giving your opinion?
Both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reilig View Post
Before chemicals were available, farmers used people with cures for to treat most illnesses in animals. Just because you don't know anyone who uses these does not mean that they are "Black magic" or anything to be made a joke of like you did above. In reality you are making the joke of your own ignorance to cures.
A joke? You are the one who suggested this was a treatment for contagious ecthyma (orf) in lambs:

I know someone with a cure for orf. Its a spiritual thing, but it does work. She has done it several times for our sheep and it always works. Don't know how she does it, but her husband says that she leaves the house with a large kitchen knife and climes a hill close to their house - he doesn't dare follow her.

That is beyond parody.

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Originally Posted by reilig View Post
Secondly, Blue Stone and washing soda are not harsh chemicals. Blue Stone has been used for hundreds of years to dose cattle and sheep for fluke, to treat foot rot and to treat orf. It is an organic treatment and does not have a meat withdrawal period. Washing soda kills germs - its anti-bacterial and has been used for this purpose for many years before dettol or savlon were produced.
Nonsense. You referred to Wikipedia - this is what it says about bluestone/copper sulphate:

Copper sulfate is a strong irritant [16]. The usual routes by which humans can receive toxic exposure to copper sulfate are through eye or skin contact, as well as by inhaling powders and dusts [17]. Skin contact may result in itching or eczema [18]. Eye contact with copper sulfate can cause conjunctivitis, inflammation of the eyelid lining, ulceration, and clouding of the cornea [19] Upon acute oral exposure, copper sulfate turns to be only moderately toxic [20]. According to studies, the lowest dose of copper sulfate that had a toxic impact on humans is 11 mg/kg.[21]. Because of its irritating effect on the gastrointestinal tract, vomiting is automatically triggered in case of the ingestion of copper sulfate. However, if copper sulfate is retained in the stomach, the symptoms can be severe. After 1-12 grams of copper sulfate are swallowed, such poisoning signs may occur as a metallic taste in the mouth, burning pain in the chest, nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, headache, discontinued urination, which leads to yellowing of the skin. In case of copper sulfate poisoning, injury to the brain, stomach, liver, kidneys may also occur [19]


The Material Data sheet for a VERY dilute combination of washing soda and bluestone is here:
http://www.chemhazsolutions.com/TP%20R%20English.pdf

Not harsh? Read it again.

Quote:
It is an organic treatment and does not have a meat withdrawal period.
If copper sulphate (or Blue Stone as you call it) is acceptable as a non-chemical on organic farms that says more about the organic movement than about copper sulphate

Quote:
Blue Stone has been used for hundreds of years to dose cattle and sheep for fluke, to treat foot rot and to treat orf.
Asbestos was used everywhere for a long time too.

Quote:
Also, there has been some extensve research done on orf in lambs in the uk. They claim that the normal course of Orf in Lambs is SEVEN to TEN WEEKS. Maybe our lambs are more immune than theirs, but I really doubt it.
Your first reference (Wikipedia) says one week, but I accept it may be longer in individual lambs.

I don't believe in magic, or the tooth fairy, we will have to agree to differ.

The other poster should stop scalding his unfortunate lambs with chemical burns, and stop advising others to inflict it on theirs. If they have orf they are suffering enough.


LostCovey

Last edited by LostCovey; 18-05-2010 at 02:07.
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18-05-2010, 10:11   #18
reilig
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I love your reference from Wikipedia that couldn't even spell copper sulphate. Problem with Wikipedia is that anyone can type anything into it. Yours looks like it was typed by a 10 year old.

You should take up your cause with the Irish Organic Association if you have such a serious problem with Bluestone. They recommend it for nearly everything

Its the only organic treatment for potato blight. They have published leaflets in the past on how it can be used to treat for fluke in both cattle and sheep as well as treating foot rot and orf. I will have a look for one of the leaflets this evening and scan it in if I can find it.
Bluestone / CUS04 solution has been used on our farm and millions of farms across the world for generations. Obviously if you do not make it into a diluted solution you are sure to kill the animal that you are treating - as your wikipedia article suggests. But I would suggest that you could learn a lot about the use of bluestone for animal treatments if you googled it.

As for the way that I treat orf in my lambs, well that's my own business. My way works for me and a lot of other sheep farmers that I know. I didn't offer a cure to anyone here nor do I intend to. I simply told people what I do. I didn't expect a barrage of criticism and sarcism that you gave me through your "witch doctor" and "parody" spiels.

Last edited by reilig; 18-05-2010 at 10:17.
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18-05-2010, 10:50   #19
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Guys- if you disagree with each other- refute each others posts factually- without resorting to personalising your posts.

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18-05-2010, 19:07   #20
LostCovey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reilig View Post
I love your reference from Wikipedia that couldn't even spell copper sulphate. Problem with Wikipedia is that anyone can type anything into it. Yours looks like it was typed by a 10 year old.
Reilig, you were the one who decided Wikipedia was credible two or three posts back, I was just using your own source.

By the way 'sulfate' is an American (rather than a juvenile) rendering of 'sulphate'.

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Originally Posted by reilig View Post
You should take up your cause with the Irish Organic Association if you have such a serious problem with Bluestone. They recommend it for nearly everything
Now you needn't be quoting the Orgasmic crowd and criticising Wikipedia. I think Wikipedia has more credibility actually, so don't be wearing out your scanner on their literature.

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Originally Posted by reilig View Post
Its the only organic treatment for potato blight. They have published leaflets in the past on how it can be used to treat for fluke in both cattle and sheep as well as treating foot rot and orf. I will have a look for one of the leaflets this evening and scan it in if I can find it.
I won't get drawn into the nonsense and fiction of the organic movement (more magic). Copper sulphate is a corrosive, toxic and poisonous chemical. Get over it.

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Originally Posted by reilig View Post
As for the way that I treat orf in my lambs, well that's my own business. My way works for me and a lot of other sheep farmers that I know. I didn't offer a cure to anyone here nor do I intend to. I simply told people what I do. I didn't expect a barrage of criticism and sarcism that you gave me through your "witch doctor" and "parody" spiels.
Well, it was hard to resist.

You weren't giving advice? My impression that some genuine person with a genuine problem was getting offers from Chemical Ali who was going to scald the lips off his lambs with bluestone and washing soda, or your friend's wife Jihad Jane going up the hill to do something unspeakable with her carving knife - a spiritual thing apparently.

I was trying to do what Jennifer Aniston called 'the science bit', but I totally accept your assurances that you won't be listening to any of that stuff.

You can do whatever you want with your own sheep as long as you don't get caught - this country has some animal welfare legislation

LostCovey.
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18-05-2010, 21:40   #21
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I'm not even going to rise to your comments because all you seem to want is an argument and an opportunity to be derogative and label people and systems that you do not believe in. Thanks for your information!! Goodbye

Quote:
Originally Posted by LostCovey View Post
Reilig, you were the one who decided Wikipedia was credible two or three posts back, I was just using your own source.

By the way 'sulfate' is an American (rather than a juvenile) rendering of 'sulphate'.



Now you needn't be quoting the Orgasmic crowd and criticising Wikipedia. I think Wikipedia has more credibility actually, so don't be wearing out your scanner on their literature.



I won't get drawn into the nonsense and fiction of the organic movement (more magic). Copper sulphate is a corrosive, toxic and poisonous chemical. Get over it.



Well, it was hard to resist.

You weren't giving advice? My impression that some genuine person with a genuine problem was getting offers from Chemical Ali who was going to scald the lips off his lambs with bluestone and washing soda, or your friend's wife Jihad Jane going up the hill to do something unspeakable with her carving knife - a spiritual thing apparently.

I was trying to do what Jennifer Aniston called 'the science bit', but I totally accept your assurances that you won't be listening to any of that stuff.

You can do whatever you want with your own sheep as long as you don't get caught - this country has some animal welfare legislation

LostCovey.

Last edited by reilig; 18-05-2010 at 21:54.
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18-05-2010, 22:39   #22
LostCovey
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Originally Posted by reilig View Post
I'm not even going to rise to your comments because all you seem to want is an argument and an opportunity to be derogative and label people and systems that you do not believe in. Thanks for your information!! Goodbye
Grand.

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19-05-2010, 09:08   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostCovey View Post
Reilig, you were the one who decided Wikipedia was credible two or three posts back, I was just using your own source.

By the way 'sulfate' is an American (rather than a juvenile) rendering of 'sulphate'.



Now you needn't be quoting the Orgasmic crowd and criticising Wikipedia. I think Wikipedia has more credibility actually, so don't be wearing out your scanner on their literature.



I won't get drawn into the nonsense and fiction of the organic movement (more magic). Copper sulphate is a corrosive, toxic and poisonous chemical. Get over it.



Well, it was hard to resist.

You weren't giving advice? My impression that some genuine person with a genuine problem was getting offers from Chemical Ali who was going to scald the lips off his lambs with bluestone and washing soda, or your friend's wife Jihad Jane going up the hill to do something unspeakable with her carving knife - a spiritual thing apparently.

I was trying to do what Jennifer Aniston called 'the science bit', but I totally accept your assurances that you won't be listening to any of that stuff.

You can do whatever you want with your own sheep as long as you don't get caught - this country has some animal welfare legislation

LostCovey.
thanks for that, how many more personal attacks are you going to get away with on here
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19-05-2010, 11:57   #24
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