Testing your PMP

misty floyd · 18-02-2010 9:47pm #1

You think you can hold a PMP for your marathon but you aren't 100% sure. The doubt enters your head because you just don't know what will happen after 20m.

This is the issue so many people seem to have (I know I do). I think about it too much if I'm honest. Would you or have you ever ran a PMP long run in training to see if you could hold that PMP? I'm talking PMP from the start and going for 18-20 miles or so.

You'd know how things would feel come marathon time. I'd imagine you'd have to have two very easy days before hand and because your in the middle of a 12 or 18 wk training plan your legs aren't rested properly. Many of us do up to, say 22m with PMP miles thrown in but it doesn't mirror the marathon.

I realise this could be stupid. I'd love to hear opinions all the same.

shels4ever · 18-02-2010 10:11pm

misty floyd wrote: »

You think you can hold a PMP for your marathon but you aren't 100% sure. The doubt enters your head because you just don't know what will happen after 20m.

This is the issue so many people seem to have (I know I do). I think about it too much if I'm honest. Would you or have you ever ran a PMP long run in training to see if you could hold that PMP? I'm talking PMP from the start and going for 18-20 miles or so.

You'd know how things would feel come marathon time. I'd imagine you'd have to have two very easy days before hand and because your in the middle of a 12 or 18 wk training plan your legs aren't rested properly. Many of us do up to, say 22m with PMP miles thrown in but it doesn't mirror the marathon.

I realise this could be stupid. I'd love to hear opinions all the same.

I would say that 16 miles would be about right, 20 mile pmp run would prob take too much out of you and take from your week training. if you can do 16 mile pmp and feel but strong at the end 9in a normal training week) then with taper etc you should be capable of doing another ten. but doesnt mean its easy

asimonov · 18-02-2010 10:18pm

misty floyd wrote: »

You think you can hold a PMP for your marathon but you aren't 100% sure. The doubt enters your head because you just don't know what will happen after 20m.

This is the issue so many people seem to have (I know I do). I think about it too much if I'm honest. Would you or have you ever ran a PMP long run in training to see if you could hold that PMP? I'm talking PMP from the start and going for 18-20 miles or so.

You'd know how things would feel come marathon time. I'd imagine you'd have to have two very easy days before hand and because your in the middle of a 12 or 18 wk training plan your legs aren't rested properly. Many of us do up to, say 22m with PMP miles thrown in but it doesn't mirror the marathon.

I realise this could be stupid. I'd love to hear opinions all the same.

I imagine you are going to get a huge array of answers on this one.

I know VR will swear by having a big MP workout 4 or 5 weeks out, and when he did one before his sub3 in Berlin people posted to say he shouldn't do it.

For my sub3 i had a lot of doubt because of missed training so my only real MP workout in the 12 weeks before the marathon was one midweek run Tergat recommended which was 5/4/3/2/1 miles at MP with short recovery between each, it was done 3 weeks out and it felt tough. it was a good session though and gave me enough confidence to know i could at least try it - and all without risking injury or losing recovery days.

Going by your training, i wouldn't risk doing a major workout all at PMP, you're on track for a quick one, just keep going as you are.

Sosa · 18-02-2010 10:23pm

Im doing Cork, Misty and i am already doing 10/12 @ pmp every week.
I plan to bring that up to at least 16 with 3 weeks to go.
That was my big mistake for Dubloin,that and not racing enough.

--amadeus-- · 18-02-2010 10:47pm

Personally I wouldn't go further than 16 @ PMP as anything longer will take too long to recover from.

And if it doesn't then your PMP is too slow

Sosa · 18-02-2010 11:30pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't go further than 16 @ PMP as anything longer will take too long to recover from.

And if it doesn't then your PMP is too slow

I would agree,i will keep going with the 10's and 12's...
I will do a 14 the week before the wexford half and then hopefully 16 with 3 weeks to go.

misty floyd · 18-02-2010 11:31pm

16m PMP is jumping out at me. Asimonov, there are some people around these parts that could do that kind of thing but maybe it is a bit much for the likes of me. I do take a while to recover after a race but I was thinking a 20 mile at PMP isn't exactly a race. Ok it would be tough, very tough. I saw Tergats 5/4/3/2/1 session alright with the important disclaimer: Be realistic. I think I'll do that.

Amadeus, can of worms there. I think I'll look up that old thread...bump....bump

cheers folks

Oisin11178 · 18-02-2010 11:46pm

misty floyd wrote: »

You think you can hold a PMP for your marathon but you aren't 100% sure. The doubt enters your head because you just don't know what will happen after 20m.

This is the issue so many people seem to have (I know I do). I think about it too much if I'm honest. Would you or have you ever ran a PMP long run in training to see if you could hold that PMP? I'm talking PMP from the start and going for 18-20 miles or so.

You'd know how things would feel come marathon time. I'd imagine you'd have to have two very easy days before hand and because your in the middle of a 12 or 18 wk training plan your legs aren't rested properly. Many of us do up to, say 22m with PMP miles thrown in but it doesn't mirror the marathon.

I realise this could be stupid. I'd love to hear opinions all the same.

Im not as fast as some of you guys but ill give you me input misty. I ran a 20 mile pace run when i was training for sub 3h30m. It was actually 3 mins or so under pace and although hard it gave me a huge confidence boost. The extra confidence i got from it allowed me to go even harder and shave another 3 mins of that pace to be 6 mins under. Im at 7.27 pace for Edinburgh and have already done an 11 mile pace run and plan on going upto 18 miles before the day. Fingers crossed:D

village runner · 19-02-2010 1:07am

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't go further than 16 @ PMP as anything longer will take too long to recover from.

And if it doesn't then your PMP is too slow

I ran a 21 at pmp 26 days before a marathon. Ran a 10km race 7 days later and i had nothing in my legs. Even Asimonov took me. But i will do it again for London 4 weeks before the race. I would rather do it 5 weeks but Ballycotton is that date.

Abhainn · 19-02-2010 11:46am

IMO if you are incorporating all the right components into your plan (some intervals, tempos, hills and long runs and a few races) then anything over 11 or 12 at PMP is too much. As everyone should know all those elements put together and with proper taper should add up to you peaking on the big day.

Some runners may seem to try and get confidence from PMP workouts but my recommendation is not to get too hung up about doing too many miles at PMP. Up to 20 miles at PMP seems recipe for disaster to me.
I refer back to my training diary last autumn for DM.
I did just 5 pace runs and ranged from 5 to 11 miles. I remember doing 6 at PMP pace (06:30) 8 days before DM and I did question my ability to run 26.2 of these back to back. On the day I averaged 06:24.

Have faith in your preparation. Don’t overdo it.

Krusty_Clown · 19-02-2010 12:10pm

+1. All my PMP runs in preparation for Berlin were at 7:03+. On the day I ran at 6:52.

tergat · 19-02-2010 12:37pm

Abhainn and Crusty_Clown have hit the nail on the head. Their comments are spot on. If you have prepared right, stayed injury/illness free, been patient and consistant and got in the long runs/long workouts then on race day the pace should feel easier (once it is REALISTIC).

PMP runs of 10-13 miles are plenty. Doing a 18 mile run with half easy and half a PMP is better than doing a 12 mile run straight at PMP. Remember what ever you do in training will feel harder than the pace on race day (up until 18-20 miles anyway, after that mental tenacity is very important).

I ran 2.45 a few years back and remember trying to do 6-8 mile runs straight at that pace in middle of 12-14 mile run and it felt so hard. On race day I cruised until 18 miles where I battled the mental demons to finish on pace.

POINT is if the work is done then it will come through on race day. Build a strong base and get in the long runs/long workouts which are SPECIFIC to the Marathon.

I came across this before. Ron Gun, who used to coach in Michigan said this: "You can't shoot a cannon out of canoe." He meant, all the speedwork (the cannon's explosive power) in the world won't matter; if you are weak (like a canoe).

Lesson: build a battleship, and then add cannons.

Have faith in your training plan, be confident and positive on race day. Go out very controlled and your race starts at 16-18 miles.

Tergat

asimonov · 19-02-2010 1:22pm

village runner wrote: »

I ran a 21 at pmp 26 days before a marathon. Ran a 10km race 7 days later and i had nothing in my legs. Even Asimonov took me. But i will do it again for London 4 weeks before the race. I would rather do it 5 weeks but Ballycotton is that date.

Just because your marathon pace in berlin was .34 seconds per mile slower than mine, there's no need to be bitter.

tisnotover · 19-02-2010 2:04pm

nice thread misty, some interesting reading here!

misty floyd · 19-02-2010 2:40pm

tergat wrote: »

Abhainn and Crusty_Clown have hit the nail on the head. Their comments are spot on. If you have prepared right, stayed injury/illness free, been patient and consistant and got in the long runs/long workouts then on race day the pace should feel easier (once it is REALISTIC).

PMP runs of 10-13 miles are plenty. Doing a 18 mile run with half easy and half a PMP is better than doing a 12 mile run straight at PMP. Remember what ever you do in training will feel harder than the pace on race day (up until 18-20 miles anyway, after that mental tenacity is very important).

I ran 2.45 a few years back and remember trying to do 6-8 mile runs straight at that pace in middle of 12-14 mile run and it felt so hard. On race day I cruised until 18 miles where I battled the mental demons to finish on pace.

POINT is if the work is done then it will come through on race day. Build a strong base and get in the long runs/long workouts which are SPECIFIC to the Marathon.

I came across this before. Ron Gun, who used to coach in Michigan said this: "You can't shoot a cannon out of canoe." He meant, all the speedwork (the cannon's explosive power) in the world won't matter; if you are weak (like a canoe).

Lesson: build a battleship, and then add cannons.

Have faith in your training plan, be confident and positive on race day. Go out very controlled and your race starts at 16-18 miles.
Tergat

Thats brilliant thanks. Lots of interesting and useful comments from all. Good to know that PMP was a lot easier to run over the full distance than for some people over shorter distances in training. You tend to forget that running 50-60 mile weeks takes a lot out of the legs and on LSR's with PMP, you sometimes just expect your legs to respond and feel comfy.

I must be more positive and have faith in my training and stop being negative. I should have put that in the lent thread.

Testing your PMP

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