Poll: If the Greens resign from the government now and force an election, can they...

hatrickpatrick · 09-10-2009 11:09am #1

...restore their admittedly shattered credibility?

A lot of people seem to be very fed up with the Greens in particular for continuing to back FF even after all the failures and scandals of recent times. I've seen and heard almost as much rubbishing of the Greens as I have for FF themselves, mostly to do with them "selling out" (or some similar phrase) in this current government.

So my question is, to those who bash the Greens over all this and want them to pull out of government, if they do so today (over the new programme for government) will they restore their credibility and reputation, or is it just too late for that?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1009/politics.html

Cuffe has said today may be the deadline for their participation. What do ye voters think?

ei.sdraob · 09-10-2009 11:21am

It will somewhat

but personally i would not vote for them ever again me thinks

The fact that they care more about secondary issues than people and jobs, and the retarded carbon tax (even tho we already pay them indirectly!) means they would never get a vote from me

Sizzler · 09-10-2009 11:25am

I will be AMAZED if this happens today tbh.

If there are still disagreements ten mins before their deadline (if there even is one) Biffo will drop his pants and Gormley will get anything he wants and that will be that.....till the next crisis, due in about a fortnight at the current run rate :rolleyes:

spadder · 09-10-2009 11:29am

Shh, tell them they can restore their credibility by bringing down this shambolic government and we will all be so impressed that we will certainly vote them in again……………………….not

spadder · 09-10-2009 11:32am

Sizzler wrote: »

I will be AMAZED if this happens today tbh.

If there are still disagreements ten mins before their deadline (if there even is one) Biffo will drop his pants and Gormley will get anything he wants and that will be that.....till the next crisis, due in about a fortnight at the current run rate :rolleyes:

The Greens are being very quiet on the whole expense fiasco, could there be some bodies in the boot of the Prius?

brianthebard · 09-10-2009 11:36am

Firstly, would the government no longer have a majority if the greens pulled out? I thought that with the pds and independents they still had the voting numbers, has that changed?

Secondly, (more on topic) the greens have been damaged, that is clear. I would have a hard time voting for them because even though I agree with environmentalism I don't feel their policies have matched their ideology.

Sizzler · 09-10-2009 11:39am

spadder wrote: »

The Greens are being very quiet on the whole expense fiasco, could there be some bodies in the boot of the Prius?

Well Gormley was quick to say there would always be some "anomalies"....woops!

Will be interesting to see what his & Ryan's are like when published...

Max Power1 · 09-10-2009 11:40am

brianthebard wrote: »

Firstly, would the government no longer have a majority if the greens pulled out? I thought that with the pds and independents they still had the voting numbers, has that changed?

Secondly, (more on topic) the greens have been damaged, that is clear. I would have a hard time voting for them because even though I agree with environmentalism I don't feel their policies have matched their ideology.

There is no more PDs. AFAIK the government is relying on a majority of 1, with the Ceann Comhairles casting vote also.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

It will somewhat

but personally i would not vote for them ever again me thinks

The fact that they care more about secondary issues than people and jobs, and the retarded carbon tax (even tho we already pay them indirectly!) means they would never get a vote from me

a major +1 from me. I used to give the greens a preference vote (2 or 3) in most elections, not anymore. At least if they force FF out of government they may be able to keep some of their followers on side. Which ius more than FF will have in the next GE

brianthebard · 09-10-2009 11:49am

Max Power1 wrote: »

There is no more PDs. AFAIK the government is relying on a majority of 1, with the Ceann Comhairles casting vote also.

a major +1 from me. I used to give the greens a preference vote (2 or 3) in most elections, not anymore. At least if they force FF out of government they may be able to keep some of their followers on side. Which ius more than FF will have in the next GE

The ex-pd's are still part of the government though aren't they? Funny you should mention keeping the green followers on side, if the story about the fur activists green members in another thread is true then I would hope that section of their support left quite quickly.

Euro_Kraut · 09-10-2009 11:52am

The Greens may lose all their TDs in the GE, but they will not go the way of the PDs. They will step back about 10-15 years and become once more a fringe party in Irish politics. They will rebuild and it may take a generation before they have a worthwhile number of TDs again.

They have made their impact in Irish politics though. Every party now has strong environmental polices in their manifestos. If you were to compare the Greening of Irish Politics with say the impact Sinn Fien have had since they re emerged 10 years ago I think you will find the Greens have been far more impactive. I can't think of one policy area where SF despite have made an impact. I can't think of any area that other parties have adopted to woo their base.

10 years ago the notion of a FF/PD Govt signing of on carbon tax was laughable. The notion that FF might even consider a ban on hare coursing even more so.

I think the Greens are essentially a well organised lobby group. They have done well over the past 20 years. Its now time for a long period of introspection in the party. I think some in the party might welcome that opportunity.

Ciarain Cuffes blog from last night appears to be verymuch in 'legacy mode'. Its like the battle is already over. (Its well worth a read by the way. We often forget that politicans are real people with same emotions as the rest of us)

Bucklesman · 09-10-2009 12:03pm

Ciarain Cuffes blog from last night appears to be more much in 'legacy mode'. Its like the battle is already over. (Its well worth a read by the way. We often forget that politicans are real people with same emotions as the rest of us)

+1 on worth a read. From the honesty of his post, it's clear that everyone who says the Greens lost their integrity in government is dead wrong.

Darragh29 · 09-10-2009 12:16pm

Bucklesman wrote: »

+1 on worth a read. From the honesty of his post, it's clear that everyone who says the Greens lost their integrity in government is dead wrong.

I'm all for more efficient light bulbs and green policies but it's hard to see the importance of these kind of things to people who have no job. Same goes for the two big issues in the negotiations, government reform and educational spending, very important issues no doubt, but will either of these issues help create employment???

jank · 09-10-2009 12:23pm

As I said, if Ryan & Gormley step out of the Dail at around 2 PM today and announce that they cannot back the government any longer because of x,y,z then I think they can save themselves as a party. All they need are transfers and they will get that in the next election. However if they are run out of power like the PD's than the electorate will not forgive.

It is up to them.....the next 3-4 hours will be interesting

Euro_Kraut · 09-10-2009 12:25pm

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'm all for more efficient light bulbs and green policies but it's hard to see the importance of these kind of things to people who have no job. Same goes for the two big issues in the negotiations, government reform and educational spending, very important issues no doubt, but will either of these issues help create employment???

I'm not sure that the rest of Government should stop until one policy objective has been achieved. Its like saying we shouldn't built motorways until we have a good health care system. Policy goals are not necessary mutually exclusive.

Its a false choice. We cannot put every single reform on hold until unemployment goes down to a certain level. It is possible for Govt to do more than one thing at a time. Good ideas (such electoral reform) should be implemented regardless of the prevailing economic conditions, imo.

Macha · 09-10-2009 12:31pm

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'm all for more efficient light bulbs and green policies but it's hard to see the importance of these kind of things to people who have no job.

Yes. Green Policies create employment. And the widespread use of more efficient light bulbs has been highlighted in McKinsey's marginal abatement cost study for Ireland as being the most cost-effective measure for reducing carbon emissions.

Ireland has had to set aside €millions in penalties under Kyoto.

Euro_Kraut, I think it's unfair to dismiss the Greens as a well-organised lobby group. I believe Gormley and especially Ryan are the two most competent ministers in government at the moment. In particular, Ryan's background in business seems to be helping him see things more practically.

There are plenty of environmental NGOs out there for those who want to pressure government from the sidelines. The Greens are there for those who believe being in power is how you actually get things done. And the Greens have good policies in other non-environmental issues. For example, at the last GE campaign, their projections for growth in the economy were by far the most realistic.

I would also disagree that all other political parties have strong environmental policies. FF and FG's are not even worth mentioning and Labour's policies are OK but seriously lacking in many areas.

nollaig · 09-10-2009 12:32pm

I'm all for more efficient light bulbs and green policies but it's hard to see the importance of these kind of things to people who have no job. Same goes for the two big issues in the negotiations, government reform and educational spending, very important issues no doubt, but will either of these issues help create employment???

Very True. I think the Greens biggest failure in their 2.5 years in government is their failure to signifcantly create any jobs in the renewable energy sector. This is something they have talked about a lot. But still, I see no evidence of it in practice

Macha · 09-10-2009 12:34pm

nollaig wrote: »

Very True. I think the Greens biggest failure in their 2.5 years in government is their failure to signifcantly create any jobs in the renewable energy sector. This is something they have talked about a lot. But still, I see no evidence of it in practice

This is incorrect. Over 10,000 green jobs have been created in 2009 alone. The green economy was valued at €2.6n in 2007 (not including construction - a huge part) with over 6,000 direct green jobs (not including indirect jobs).

helpwanted1 · 09-10-2009 12:34pm

I am doubtful of the likelihood that the Green Party T.D's will resign today, simply due to the lack of media coverage of the talks. Surely RTE News would be covering the possibility of the imminent collapse in the current Government. Yet very little coverge sends a clear signal that this is the Greens making a point to the electorate they have integrity left and wont be pushed around when most of us know they are puppets with Fine Fail pulling the strings.

Bucklesman · 09-10-2009 12:40pm

Sustainability goes far beyond lightbulbs and electric cars. From Cuffe's blog:

I really believe that green ideas are crucial to getting us through the current economic and environmental challenges. We've got to move Ireland from the boom-bust buildings and big cars fixation into an Ireland that's better planned with a more diversified economy. It'll involve green jobs - in the digital economy, agriculture, renewable energy, sustainable construction and smarter travel. It will be based on confidence in the political system, investment in education and proper planning.

I suppose I am one of the deluded souls who actually believes there is a better way of doing things than the riding the rollercoaster of unbridled economic growth.

Euro_Kraut · 09-10-2009 12:42pm

taconnol wrote: »

Euro_Kraut, I think it's unfair to dismiss the Greens as a well-organised lobby group.

What’s wrong with being a well organised lobby group? It depends on whether you regard politics as being about influence or power. For me influence is long term and subsequently more importantly. The Greens are certainly very influential in Irish politics.

What’s wrong with being a well organised lobby group? It depends on whether you regard politics as being about influence or power. For me influence is long term and subsequently more importantly. The Greens are certainly very influential in Irish politics.

I am not having a dig at the Green and am certainly not 'dismissing' them. Apologies if it came across like that. But I think at a time like this when some are question the existence of the Greens, it is worth remembering that they are part political party, part movement. That is why I believe they will not 'go the way of the PDs'. In fact the Greens are the only mainstream Irish party set up after 1927 that are still going.

turgon · 09-10-2009 12:47pm

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

They have made their impact in Irish politics though. Every party now has strong environmental polices in their manifestos.

In that respect they are slightly similar to the PD's, who turned every main party in the Dail slightly towards smaller government/lower tax.

The PD's may be gone but they achieved more than Sinn Fein will achieve in the next 50 years.

bijapos · 09-10-2009 12:50pm

Yes it will restore some of their credibility but they will still take a huge hit at the next elections. It was not only their decision to go in with FF in June 07, it was also their failure to act as a watchdog on the Oct 08 budget that will hurt them.

I cannot blame anyone who voted for them in 02 or 07 for turning their backs on them, I think a lot of people voted for them because they are not FF,FG, PD or Labour and were looking for a new form of honesty in politics. I still believe they are the most honest and credible politicians in the Dail but they have been strangely naive.

I think it was Fintan O'Toole who wrote around the last local elections that history will be kind to the Greens and I agree with this. They have recieved a relentless bashing from elements of the media, mostly based on personal hatred rather than any form of well informed journalism and this carries over to the public. Ironically enough the Greens critiscised several years go the boom-bust nature of our economy but were mocked and laughed at, they were the only ones who pleaded for a form of sustainability at a time when it was practically treasonous to do so and ironically enough ended in power at the start of the collapse of this economic pyramid scheme.

What the Irish electorate do not want to accept is that FG (and Labour)voted on councils across the country relentlessly along with FF for wild rezonings that contributed in many ways to the boom-bust that we are going through. They are, in my personal viewpoint as corrupt, self-serving and malicous as FF but they will be voted in next time and on the whole nothing will change.

I think the Greens have introduced some far ranging legislation, for example, renewable energy and the ESB will prove to be a wise decision in the future and they have not tried to bring in policies which short term will "buy" the next election but long term prove damaging, unlike the other bigger parties (Lab included). But I do not think that the public will see beyond this, FG will get in next time for the simple fact that they are not FF, will buy the election after that with short term policies, FF will be in after that and so the carousel will continue.

A previous poster is right in saying that they have been a sucess in that other parties have been forced de facto to introduce environmental policies, but the Greens are more than just an environmental party. I have been deeply disappointed with some of their actions over the past few years, notably joining FF and supporting last years budget but as they are in my opinion the best (by some distance) of those in there I will still give them a 1 vote next time out.

Biggins · 09-10-2009 1:04pm

A lot of points have been covered on both sides so I won't regurgitate them.
I'll simply say this; The Greens are going to take a hit at the next elections to some good degree - there can be no denying that.

They have to decide however if
(a) They stay in government and and die a slow lingering death and be remembered as a party that dragged their own death out.
or
(b) a party that might be seen as one that tried to regain its dignity more so back and possibly with a few additional regained votes.

Time will tell...

magicbastarder · 09-10-2009 1:14pm

bijapos wrote: »

I have been deeply disappointed with some of their actions over the past few years, notably joining FF and supporting last years budget but as they are in my opinion the best (by some distance) of those in there I will still give them a 1 vote next time out.

i know joining FF as a junior partner earned them a lot of ire, but since the greens are only ever going to be a minority party with a more focused agenda than most other irish parties, i would have been more disappointed at them had they not take the poisoned chalice. being a minority party in opposition does little to help you advance your policies. they got far more done in coalition than they would have achieved in opposition, and it's on that that i would choose to judge them.

Macha · 09-10-2009 1:20pm

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

What’s wrong with being a well organised lobby group? It depends on whether you regard politics as being about influence or power. For me influence is long term and subsequently more importantly. The Greens are certainly very influential in Irish politics.

The Greens are very influential in Irish politics because they have been in power for the last 2 years! The foundations for Ireland's disastrous history of flouting EU environmental legislation, dreadful low-density planning, inefficient built environment, incredible dependency on the car and highest per capita carbon emissions in Europe were all laid when the Greens were around, but not in power. It is only the last 2 years that some real progress has been made in reversing the immeasurable damage.

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

I am not having a dig at the Green and am certainly not 'dismissing' them. Apologies if it came across like that. But I think at a time like this when some are question the existence of the Greens, it is worth remembering that they are part political party, part movement. That is why I believe they will not 'go the way of the PDs'. In fact the Greens are the only mainstream Irish party set up after 1927 that are still going.

Ah no need to apologise - I'm a little bit in bunker-mode at the moment!

The principles of the Green Party are universally accepted in most modern forward-thinking democracies. But the fact remains that many other parties in Ireland pay lip-service to environmental issues. And other countries would consider our Greens to be rather weak in the area of environmental policies.

SeanW · 09-10-2009 1:41pm

If the Greens were to pull this shambolic government down before they have a chance to bail out every banker and politically connected property developer, I would consider that an act of courage and integrity.

In short, I would see fit to vote for a Green candidate very soon, if not in the election they cause, then perhaps the one after that.

If they choose to stay in government and allow the wealth of generations to be stolen to pay for developer payoffs, all so that they can vaccinate badger, ban fur trading and sabotage the roads programme ... they can forget about getting a vote from me EVER!

hobochris · 09-10-2009 1:50pm

I thought an agreement had to be made by lunchtime?
Anyone got any news on this? I've checked rte and breaking news and cant find anything.

I hope the greens force a GE.

BOHSBOHS · 09-10-2009 1:55pm

we can all hope! but we all know the greens wont be going anywhere . its all huff and puff .. no backbone:(

spadder · 09-10-2009 2:00pm

taconnol wrote: »

This is incorrect. Over 10,000 green jobs have been created in 2009 alone. The green economy was valued at €2.6n in 2007 (not including construction - a huge part) with over 6,000 direct green jobs (not including indirect jobs).

Could you give us a breakdown of this? If your talking about the SEI insulation grant scheme, talk to any contractor, he will tell you it's a joke

paconnors · 09-10-2009 2:31pm

according to rte the talks will continue untill the afternoon. just proves the green party is all guff but no action.

magicbastarder · 09-10-2009 2:34pm

are you suggesting that the deadline is more important than making progress?

Poll: If the Greens resign from the government now and force an election, can they...

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