Its Rabbitt!

mike65 · 25-10-2002 7:03pm #1

Pat Rabbitt, has won the Labour leadership contest, with Liz McManus looking good for deputy (both ex-DL).

While I have never voted Labour I like the cut of both thier jibs.

Mike.

Cork · 25-10-2002 7:38pm

I think that Labour must be in serious trouble. Could you imagine say the PDs merging with FF & Mary Harney becoming Leader & Michael Mcdowell becoming Deputy Leader?

What was the reson that DL existed?
Was Pat Rabitt a member of the workers party?

While - I think that Mr. Rabbitt will be good for Lbaour. I think that - he will have a hard battle up aganist SF.

daveirl · 25-10-2002 8:02pm

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DiscoStu · 25-10-2002 9:26pm

Rabbittes are'nt they those things in secret of mana/seiken densetsu 3?

Cork · 25-10-2002 9:41pm

I think Labour would be better off with Bear Rabbit or Peter Rabbt?

But in seriousness - Where has the labour party gone?

gandalf · 25-10-2002 9:58pm

Originally posted by Cork
I think that Labour must be in serious trouble. Could you imagine say the PDs merging with FF & Mary Harney becoming Leader & Michael Mcdowell becoming Deputy Leader?

Yes Cork I could see that happening because the current leadership of FF have shown themselves to be inept and pathetic in recent months. Then again FF leadership elections probably involve votes been taken with brown envelopes.

As regards Pat Rabbitte as leader of the Labour party I think its excellent news and I fully expect them to make great progress under his leadership.

Sinn Fein will only be a threat to other parties if they can fully detatch themselves from the IRA which is not going to happen soon.

Gandalf.

sceptre · 25-10-2002 10:28pm

I'm really pleased. Obviously (given that I don't blindly follow any shower of politicians just because of what ticket they run on) I'm not a Labour voter but I think it's a step forward both for the Labour party and Irish politics in general.

The Labour party have suffered from a lack of direction in the past 10-15 years (and perhaps before). Recently they've been trying to stand on top of the fence appealing to working class and middle class voters in an attempt to grab more seats at any cost. Rabbitte isn't the kind of chap who'll sacrifice his beliefs in order to screw a few more ministerial cars out of a bigger party. I don't necessarily agree with many of his views but tbh I'm sick and tired of Irish parties changing their core values merely for Dail seats at the expense of what they're supposed to represent. Rabbitte's always nailed his political colours to the mast - especially during the leadership campaign. Even if you wouldn't vote for the guy, you have to appreciate that. if this is the "new" labour party (as opposed to the Conservative-Lite UK Labour or the Irish one of late) I certainly look forward to what the guy has to say.

daveirl · 26-10-2002 12:47am

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dahamsta · 26-10-2002 1:00am

I was hoping it would be Rabbitte. I remember watching him at the CIE hearings and having to stop myself shouting "YOU GO GIRLFRIEND!" at the screen every time he ticked someone off. And watching him tell Vincent Braaaawn to shut up the other night on RTE was just class.

God I'm a nerd.

adam

sceptre · 26-10-2002 2:11am

Originally posted by daveirl
sceptre Do you really think all that. Remember the man has been a minister and he didn't exactly shine at that job. But I suppose only time will tell.

I do really. Being Minister of State with responsibility for Commerce, Science and tech (in the dept of enterprise) isn't exactly a measure of ability even at the best of times. Irish politics is littered with people who have become great Ministers despite the lacklustre performance of departments in which they held a junior ministry. When it comes down to it, a junior minister acts as something of a twin liaison between the real Minister and the civil servants and something of a political permanent secretary. No policy creation or guidance, merely policy enforcement. A junior ministry has in the past been used far more as a bargaining chip towards forming a coalition rather than anything useful.

As you say, time will tell.

He's gonna actually have to do something now instead of whining about everything.

Too right. Mind you, being in opposition, if he doesn't whinge and complain we'll all be doing that about him. He'll need to actually propose things rather than just complain about the status quo - it's the difference between a useless opposition and a useful one. FG are also suffering from PR problems (and more importantly a complete lack of awareness of who they are and who they represent - it's why they're having semi-secret meetings trying to figure that out) so Labour could actually take the opportunity to represent the people they've always claimed to represent and make their mark as opposition proper if they put their minds to it. The big question then is whether sufficient numbers of people will actually vote for a socialist party.

Fianna Fail are a slowly moving target at ther moment yet neither of the main opposition parties (FG/Lab) have managed to highlight the fact that they don't seem to understand basic economic theory. I'd give my eye teeth to the politician who can stand up in the Dail and ask McCreevy if he knows what an assymetric economic shock is (in case anyone from the Dept of Finance is reading: this is, relative to our EU partners, what we're experiencing at the moment. Put the books Friedman wrote in the 70s down for a moment and look it up)

Personally if I was starting a political party in the morning I'd have clear aims that could be refined over time, still focussing on the people I purported to represent rather than what most Irish political parties are still doing - running with whatever issue is popular in the latest poll and making that a temporary party policy. (this is OT really - it does my nut in when parties (and all the large ones have been doing it in the last decade) will just try a grab-all approach to vote-getting. There's one major culprit and I don't even feel the need to mention them).

To an extent, it doesn't bother me - there isn't a single political party in this country I've come across (even the crazies) that I'd currently be interested in joining - none of them seem to have any vision grounded on reality. However, given that a political party is, at least in theory, supposed to represent the views of its actual members (as opposed to influencing floating voters to vote for them by coming up with policies that they've no intention of actually putting into practice), if Rabbitte manages to turn Labour into a socialist party I'll be pleased. If he doesn't (keeping in mind that he promised he would), I'll be the first to admit I was wrong and say he was crap.

Planet Potato · 26-10-2002 8:31am

So Mr Rabbitte is the new leader of the party formally run by Mr Angry of Sandymount (as Willie O'Dea once famously called Ruairi Quinn). I think Pat seems like an honest chap, and intellectually is probably one of the brightest out there. He does have a tendancy to adopt a hectoring tone however which grates enormously with me. He has been an effective performer on the committees that I've seen him perform on.

Labour cannot really afford to tackle FF/FG at the moment, as their real challenge is to cope with the creeping Sinn Fein and Green support, which is having a disproportionate effect on their voter base. I know that SF have shot up to close to 10% support, but to my mind the real challenge is going to come from the Greens. Labour have always given the appearance of a Trinity college socialist party meeting - a bunch of rich kids who read the cheat sheets to Marx once, but their protestations of representing the "working class" have been a bit pretentious. The Greens are the party most likely to radicalise that particular part of the electorate.

Biffa Bacon · 26-10-2002 11:13am

I'm glad he's won. I'm not a fan of his politics but at least he has a bit of passion unlike the rest of the career politicians in the Dáil.

Cork · 26-10-2002 12:22pm

He has come along way since - his Workers Party & Democratic Left Days. I think that comments like:

current leadership of FF have shown themselves to be inept and pathetic in recent months

Mr. Ahern is Taoiseach. Where are Michael Noonan and Mr Quinn. FF will be in power for the next 5 years.

Did DL oppose an EU referendum here? Where did DL/Workers Party differ from the Labour party? I really do not much about the Workers Party?

I think that there were differant times - before the fall of the iron curtain.

m1ke · 27-10-2002 12:06am

When sinn fein split into the officials and provisionals in the 70s the workers party evolved out of official sinn fein, the workers party split about 10 years ago or so and the larger wing formed DL.

Labour are centre-left in their politics and DL was never far off even in the early days - mostly on things like europe. DL had real working class support whereas Labours has always been questionable. The workers party was more far left then both. DL did oppose close relations with the EU along with the WP/SF/Greens.

Cork · 27-10-2002 12:16am

How Left were DL or the Workers Party?

Were they marxist?

Did they ever travel to the USSR when the Iron Curtain was up?

sceptre · 27-10-2002 3:28am

Originally posted by Cork
How Left were DL or the Workers Party?

Were they marxist?

Did they ever travel to the USSR when the Iron Curtain was up?

Bloody hell, with due respect, did you even read what m1ke posted in answer to you?

In case not, I'll explain it. The provos and officials split in 1970. In 1970 they were both marxist. Therefore both parties after the split ("Sinn Fein The Workers Party" and "Sinn Fein") both had a marxist philosophy. The split was motivated by the issue of abstentionism, not political philosophy. It also marked the moment when leadership of the IRA passed from the Cork brigade (where leadership had been based for obvious historical reasons) to the Northern Command.

The Officials declared a ceasefire in the early 70s. They've had no armed involvement or intentions since. Putting them in the same boat as Fianna Fail when they split with SF in the twenties (incidentally, over exactly the same issue) if it makes you feel all fuzzy inside. Hence, by definition and inclusion, the Workers Party had a marxist philosophy. Ruairi O'Bradaigh split from Provisional Sinn Fein in 1983 to form SF of the Republican variety (the first and only time in Irish history that a split has come about because the main SF movement wanted to abandon abstentionism). There is one TD currently in the Dail representing Labour that was a member at the time of the 1970 split. Just for fun, I'll leave it as an exercise for you yourself to figure out who.

Get any book on Northern Ireland, the IRA or modern Irish politics published in the last thirty years and it'll spell it out. I could explain it all in detail but, frankly, I doubt you're that interested in what actually happened.

Cork · 27-10-2002 1:46pm

Originally posted by Cork
How Left were DL or the Workers Party?

Were they marxist?

Did they ever travel to the USSR when the Iron Curtain was up?

I accept the History - Did they ever travel to the USSR when the Iron Curtain was up?

bonkey · 27-10-2002 3:10pm

Originally posted by Cork
I accept the History - Did they ever travel to the USSR when the Iron Curtain was up?

I fail to see the relevance.

Are you trying to imply that such a trip (or lack thereof) would dictate what a party's leanings can or cannot be?

Maybe if you explained why this is relevant, people might be more inclined to stop just telling you that you're missing the point.

jc

dahamsta · 27-10-2002 4:16pm

Did they ever travel to the USSR when the Iron Curtain was up?

I did. I also still have the SU flag that I bought over there hanging on my wall, and a militia greatcoat and pocket watch. Does this make me a communist militant?

adam

aine · 27-10-2002 6:44pm

all I have to say on the issue is that although both the major opposition parties have recently acquired new leaders...I cant see anybody on the opposition benches that could handle the post of taoiseach...thats a sad state of affairs considering you could find a couple of choice candidates from within FF....

Planet Potato · 29-10-2002 11:41pm

Originally posted by aine
all I have to say on the issue is that although both the major opposition parties have recently acquired new leaders...I cant see anybody on the opposition benches that could handle the post of taoiseach...thats a sad state of affairs considering you could find a couple of choice candidates from within FF....

True - even when John Brutal was around, I could just about see him as Taoiseach. The other candidates tend to be a sorry bunch.

Enda Kenny? No way (sorry :P). After 'that joke' I could never trust his judgement, and he doesn't have huge political experience (though you could say the same about Tony Blair). Comes across as smarmy.

Pat Rabbitte - will make a much more effective opposition than Government I expect. I don't know if he'd have the global view that a Taoiseach is required to have, is very good with individual discrete issues.

Other candidates?
- FG to beg Ivan Yates to return
- John Brutal to return?

who else?

Cork · 30-10-2002 10:33am

I think FG needs a new leader. I think they might be able to coax Ian Duncan Smith over from the UK. William Hague is another possibility. Mick McCarthy maybe?

sceptre · 30-10-2002 2:56pm

Originally posted by Planet Potato

- FG to beg Ivan Yates to return

Actually I've always had great respect for Ivan yates - sincere bloke and all that. His reasons for leaving were pretty obvious, being tied into opposition for another five years. Another guy I'd like to see in the Dail, leading his party, whether I voted for them or not.

Mysterio · 30-10-2002 5:54pm

I like Rabbitte. He's more lefty than Quinn and for once in probably the whole of Labours leaders history, he's got no facial hair

mike65 · 30-10-2002 7:38pm

Intersting to note posts which assume Rabbitte will be taking Labour further left, when the opposite is more likely, While he's ex-DL therefore ex-Workers party, he always struck me as not very socialist, indeed I think he is at heart a centerist with anti-FF genes. Expect him to somehow talk labour into closer links with FG,
then to start to programme to "merge" the two on Labours terms.

The hard left socialist vote will be given up to the Greens, SF, SWP WP and various independents to fight over.

Mike.

Cork · 02-11-2002 6:16pm

Do ye think a FG/Labour Merger is likely? I think FG is in serious trouble & is fast becoming a rural/country party. I think a merger would be a good thing in the interests of forming an alternative grouping to FF.

aine · 02-11-2002 7:43pm

Do ye think a FG/Labour Merger is likely? I think FG is in serious trouble & is fast becoming a rural/country party. I think a merger would be a good thing in the interests of forming an alternative grouping to FF.

I seriously doubt it....I mean that would be the final blow to the pretence that there was any sort of left/right divide to Irish politics! a merger would actually probably do more to damage their respective reputations with what few solid supporters each party has left!

Cork · 02-11-2002 8:48pm

But as an alternative government - you are talking about SF+Green+Independents+FG+Labour (with voting pacts)

I think we need strong government as our country economic fortunes are going down the tubes.

What hope has a potential rag bag of government to stand up aganist say the Unions?

Labour would be in control of the new merged party.

mike65 · 02-11-2002 9:19pm

Aine, if you think about it, the logic of a FG-Labour merger is strong, if Rabbitte wont go into government with FF, who else is there?

Labour is too big to spend countless years on the opposition benches waiting for FG to get lucky again, and then going into coalition as (likely) junior partner, nope a "new" party of FG/Labour makes good stratigic sense to me.

Mike.

Its Rabbitt!

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