Are english aristocratic landlords still here?

Kaiser_Sma wrote: »

Well thats rather semantic, you could say though that the intention was to eliminate or reduce irish culture and national identity. Often these were instituted as severe punishments for various rebellions alliegences and spurned by the contempt amidst the anglican and presbitarian elite for irish catholics.

OK so , you admit the ruling elite hated the Irish . You admit the ruling elite introduced laws to eliminate the practice and existence of national life and the human rights of the Irish people . And like Hitler who wanted to punish the jews and the communists for the home front rebellion during world war one you claim it was done out of both bigotry and revenge . Jews and communists were reduced to slaves before hand just as Irish people were reduced to slaves . British historian Arthur Young was among many who remarked on their vistis to Ireland that tenant farmers were in effect slaves
"A landlord in Ireland can scarcely invent an order which a laborer, servant, or cottier dares to refuse .... He may punish with his cane or his horsewhip with the most perfect security. A poor man would have his bones broken if he offered to lift a hand in his own defense."

This was your legal status under British policy , a genocidal policy

We have now established both motive and methodology

Though some people may have wanted irish catholics to be wiped off the face of the earth, and there is no doubht that it was british policy in ireland that caused the famine, it was not an intentional event.

there was no famine in Ireland , there was no shortage of food being produced and exported , please stop referring to something that simply did not exist . And as Lord Clarendon who in 1847 became the sole voice of protest left at the closure of all relief efforts on governemnt instruction in the summer of 1847 stated "What is to be done with these hordes? Improve them off the face of the earth, you will say, let them die. But there is a certain responsibility attaching to it...."I don't think there is another legislature in Europe [other than the British] that would coldly persist in this policy of extermination."
At the highest level of the British aministration the intent of British policy was clear . It was a policy of extermination . They wanted the population reduced drastically .As Nassau Senior pointed out he feared the artifically induced starvation brought on by British policy would not kill more than a million people, which would scarcely be enough to eliminate the mass unemployment in a country of 3 million unemployed . Attempts to find employment for these people were deliberatly stopped , attempts to grow food to feed them were deliberately stopped , attempts to boost the infrastructure of the country to supply both food and employment were deliberately stopped . All attempts to provide relief were deliberately stopped by policy at the height of the starvation .They were unemployed and illiterate in the first place as a result of British policy deliberately destroying their national life .

The reasons for exporting masses amount of food, limitning irish diets and owner ship was not to make them more suceptable to the famine, but selfishly economic and predjudaced.

People were not made susceptible to a famine because there was no famine to be susceptible to in the first place . Just as the support for nazism by its funders like Krupp , IG Farben , Wall street etc was not done out of prejudice alone but predominantly for economic greed . The nazis dispossesed jews of their possessions out of greed . They created slave labour camps out of greed , selfishly economic and prejudiced reasons . Industrialists and financiers supported the enslavement of large sectors of the German population and others out of greed . They supported the internment , jailing and killing of trade unionists and left wingers out of greed . They supported the well ordered socities which nazism promised out of greed as there would be nothing to interfere with their persuit of profit .

British policy in Ireland very delibertaely left Irish people with 3 choices

starve to death on their farms whilst handing over their food to pay their rent

report to the workhouse to be simultanously worked and starved to death like the inmates of Auschwitz

Get out of the country by a taking a chance on an ocean journey with a 50% survival rate , accompanied by a stone age life expectancy for you and your family when you arrived on foreign shores in disease and starvation ridden refugee camps .

Your claim that it was just an accident that British polciy left people with these choices is ridiculous . That was the intent of the policies .

Certainly evil protastants never sprinkled the spores of the blight onto irish crops. If the intent was to eliminate the irish then why bother trying in vain to feed and employ them after the famine was in effect ?

why bother indeed ? Can you point out to us instances of the British adminsitration stepping in to do this ? All their intervention was directed towards preventing either feeding or employment to take place , at preventing much needed infrastructure projects and alleviation of mass starvation . At preventing social progress in order to ensure mass starvation happened . They stepped in to prevent every real attempt to alleviate starvation

You like to compare it to the holocaust enacted on the jews, but the german government had clear intents and horribly grand designs, they certainly never tried to draw out their elimination with food aid, soup kitchens and the like.

neither did the British governemnt . They even turned ships carrying food away . They offered soup kitchens in 1847 as a pretext for having the economically useless old and infirm ejected from the workhouses , only to close them down within a few months at the very height of the holocaust . Even at that a bowl of soup is not going to sustain you while you are breaking stones all day building roads to nowhere in a country with plenty of roads . You will very simply and very predictably be worked to death and that is very definitely what happened . This country is full of the mass graves from the workhouses
What little food aid there was was in the form of Indian corn which was bought from abraod and kept in governemnt storage . As food supplies dried up they released it to be sold on the market , not handed out to people for free . If youd already sold your belongings to survive that was tough . This was discontinued anyway by 1846 .
And the nazi governemnts grand aims and designs did not become clear untill after their defeat - people were told jews were being relocated to other parts of europe and resettled .Propaganda films were made showing the alleged resettlements . Of course though youll argue that people must have known , while simultaneously arguing that British policy makers did not know their policies would have such an effect . Or that people were blind to the fact British policywas creating a holocaust in Ireland .
The Wannsee conference did not take place until 1942 and even that was closely guarded secret only known to a handful which would not have been known to anyone had not the documents of a defeated Germany been discovered .

These policies weren't effective, especially later on, but that doesn't make it a genocide. There certianly were genocides in english history, not that long ago, in the scottish highlands for example. There are also examples of genocides by famine, such as the 'harrying of the north' after the norman invasions.

what policies ? there was no food aid to speak of and soup kitchens lasted only a few months . The soup was only given to people they were simultaneously working to death in governemnt workhouses . Your argument is akin to claiming because inmates of auschwitz were given food rations the germans obviously hadnt planned to kill them.

The british empire was a largely economic entitiy at the time, it was ideological as well but this was a secondary motivator. When they oppertunity comes to exploit a people, for a profit, it is taken, indeed ever since the 1600's parliment noted the value of irish and scots as soilders and their continued existance was important to them, however limited.[

the Third reich was intended to be an economic and cultural empire just like the British . It didnt get off the ground so we are left with its ideological legacy as opposed to its cultural and economic. The nazis also employed soldiers from territories thay had conquered and intended colonising also . They even praised muslims in particular and gave them their own SS division in the Balkans . In short so what ?
Profit is as good a motive to kill someone as ideology , even moreso . The fact is the Irish population was a threat to British profits , a large portion of that population openly regarded as surplus to requirements . That large portion of the population was removed by mass starvation brought about by deliberate policy decisions in a country full to the brim of food .