40 Euro GOVERNMENT TAX on Mastercard

DUX · 18-04-2004 2:27pm #1

I have just been charged for this on my Mastercard:

16 APR 2004 GOVERNMENT TAX 40.00

Is this normal? Any way I can claim back this 40 Euro??

flogen · 18-04-2004 2:29pm

are you posting in the wrong place? are you a troll? are you a muppet?

Flogen

DUX · 18-04-2004 2:31pm

sorry i just realised i posted in the wrong place (although this is a small personal issue

). Is there any way to have this thread moved?

sorry

Gordon · 18-04-2004 2:31pm

silent · 18-04-2004 2:34pm

Originally posted by DUX
I have just been charged for this on my Mastercard:
Is this normal?

Sadly yes, it was charged last year too, before that it was an acceptable 15E IIRC

Any way I can claim back this 40 Euro??

Move abroad

, open an account elsewhere and get a CC that way, get an amex blue and get those 40E back using it and getting 1% cashback.
Basically you cant do anything just pay it, it an absurd double tax and extremely expensive at that too. 15E is ok, but 40 PER CARD? c'mon
someone shoot the goverment in charge of this

DUX · 18-04-2004 3:10pm

I have got charged the same amount on my AMEX, but my company refund me the money for it......but this Mastercard is my personal one, I hate throwing away money this way. The problem is that AMEX is not accepted everywhere so I have to keep this Mastercard too :mad:

voxpop · 18-04-2004 3:14pm

I dont see that much of a problem with it - its a bit steep but basically its a tax on ppl who have enough money to own a credit card

The problem is taxing atm cards

Johnny Versace · 18-04-2004 3:18pm

Originally posted by Angry_Penguin
I dont see that much of a problem with it - its a bit steep but basically its a tax on ppl who have enough money to own a credit card

The problem is taxing atm cards

Well... I disagree here. Lots of people have credit cards, but it doesn't mean they have lots of money. Some people just have them to do online purchases (me), but I would in no way call myself rich!

It's just another stealth tax...

silent · 18-04-2004 3:24pm

if want to tax rich people who have money then introduce third tax bracket after 50K/y with 50-55% and voila
but no, they make loads of other hidden taxes which only anger most people and has much more overhead than larger income taxes

DUX · 18-04-2004 3:26pm

Originally posted by Johnny Versace
Well... I disagree here. Lots of people have credit cards, but it doesn't mean they have lots of money. Some people just have them to do online purchases (me), but I would in no way call myself rich!

It's just another stealth tax...

I agree with Johnny. I am another one of those owning a credit card and using it mainly for online purchases...and nowadays I believe the 90% of the people out there own a credit card anyway. No need to be rich for having a credit card....

jongore · 18-04-2004 3:28pm

Yeah it's on all CCs, it's a pain in the A$$ as I use mine for online purchases and I also would not consider myself well off.

BTW AMEX is a crap card, very few places take it in Ireland and a lot of online stores don't accept it either.

voxpop · 18-04-2004 3:33pm

I didnt say it was a tax on rich ppl - "its a tax on ppl who have enough money to own a credit card" - obviously you have enough money to afford the tax or you would cancel you credit card

alleepally · 18-04-2004 3:42pm

This tax is WRONG WRONG WRONG no matter how you slice it. Having a credit card or an ATM card is entirely a PRIVATE matter between you and your bank but we put these muppets in power and unfortunately the vast majority will just shrug when they see it on their bill. I wouldn't mind if the government ring fenced the money gained by this to go to something tangible, like increasing foreign aid to developing countries. As it stands, any extra funds the government gets is going to be spent on the ever increasing public service payroll bill/tribunals/yada yada

capistrano · 18-04-2004 3:59pm

My main problem with the €40 charge is that it stifles competition. I know people in the UK who have many credit cards and move their debt around to the one offering the best rates. This competition keeps the banks on their toes. No one in Ireland will now want more than one credit card because each card will have the unjust tax on it. So the state gains at the expense losses to the consumer and creating a protected environment for banks/credit card companies.

It's just ludicrous. Does anyone know of another country where there is a government tax on having credit cards and ATM cards? I don't mean bank charges - just state charges.

alleepally · 18-04-2004 4:18pm

I gleaned some stats from the Irish Bankers Federation. They cover the main clearing banks, so this gives a good indication of what a money spinner it is.

Raw figurs

Number of issued credit cards in ROI - 1.8m
Total Government charge to the cards without your giving consent - €72 MILLION

Number of issued atm cards in ROI - 2.9m
Total Government charge to the cards without your giving consent - €29 MILLION

Number of issued laser cards in ROI -1,092,000
Total government charge to the cards without your giving consent - €21.8 million

GRAND TOTAL = €122.8 MILLION

I have a BIG problem with this robbery. Take the ATM cards for example. With 2.9m issued cards, that's basically everyone in the country who can hold a bank account.

If the government wants to be fair about this, why not send out a tax demand to EVERYONE in the state for €10? How would they word it

"Hello there, we are taking €10 from you. Please have your wallet/purse ready for the revenue collector when he/she calls. Thanks and regards, your friendly shower of muppets c/o Dail Eireann. PS - Yeah, we know there are super wealthy people (e.g. Denis O'Brien) and so on who can pay feck all tax in comparison to their wealth by living in another country, but we have you by the balls coz we know you're not going to complain like the super rich"

I also understand that many people on social welfare can get their entitlements into a bank account. For the 'privelege' of being able to receive their entitlements in a dignified manner by withdrawing money from an ATM like anyone else, they are charged €10 also...

seamus · 18-04-2004 4:30pm

Remember that if you cancel it before April next year, you'll get charged anopth €40 for this year.

It's a rip off. €40 can be a lot of money when things are tight.

capistrano · 18-04-2004 4:45pm

It's the attitude that they tax it because so many people can't live without bank crads. It's easy money.

Beware of what's next: tax on mobile phones? Boradband access?

Why not, it fits the pattern of easy money.

alleepally · 18-04-2004 5:15pm

Re: my figures above. I should qualify the credit card one by saying that the tax is per account and not per card so the take from the credit card tax is going to be less. From my reading of the situation, no one seems to have an accurate figure of the actual number of accounts. I believe the banks have until July 1st to pass over all the money to the government.

Regardless, it's still a huge chunk of money and despite searching I cannot find any other country in the world that imposes a credit card or atm card tax.

Tom Dunne · 18-04-2004 7:11pm

Originally posted by capistrano

Beware of what's next: tax on mobile phones? Boradband access?

Don't laugh, but aren't they proposing a tax on company provided mobile phones, laptops and broadband access (being taxed as BIK)?

I work in IT support and we provide 24x7 out of hours support. So a laptop, mobile and broadband access (for those who can get it) are required for my job. Any yet the government want to tax me BIK on it?

Tom Dunne · 18-04-2004 7:14pm

Originally posted by jongore

BTW AMEX is a crap card, very few places take it in Ireland and a lot of online stores don't accept it either.

Thats rubbish, I have one for the past number of years and they are accepted everywhere Visa/Mastercard are accepted. I can't remember the last time I was told an establishment didn't accept AA.

HelterSkelter · 18-04-2004 7:14pm

Originally posted by Angry_Penguin
I dont see that much of a problem with it - its a bit steep but basically its a tax on ppl who have enough money to own a credit card

Hahaha, that's the funniest thing I've heard in a long time!! You don't need to have a large income to get a credit card. Sure they even give them to students.

Johnny Versace · 18-04-2004 7:14pm

Yes, the tax on credit cards is per account, whereas the tax on laser/cheque cards/atm cards is per card AND per functionalty!

So if you have a combined laser + atm card, that's tax x 2.

...

Scumbags.

Victor · 18-04-2004 7:53pm

Oh, get a life people. This is one tax that Denis O'Brien does get stuck for (assuming he has an Irish CC).

If the government didn't have stamp duty, they would simply tax something else.

naitkris · 18-04-2004 8:06pm

i really don't like getting taxed 40 Euro every year on something as small as a credit card (i am on a student credit card, so it is kindof small in terms of max credit) especially since it was doubled a year or two ago... maybe they should tax people different amounts based on how much they spend on it or even better, their max limit on the card. if they did it this way, it'd be a whole lot fairer in my view.

it kindof sucks to forget the 40 Euro is going to be charged and then see it on ones bill and then having to adjust ones finances for the month as a student to pay it off...

in Sweden as far as i am aware, there is no tax on credit cards every year, but then again there's huge income and corporate tax which is where the Government makes up for it, in Ireland they seem to make revenue off credit cards and other things instead to make up for the low corporate tax and relatively low income tax (in comparison to Sweden)

chump · 18-04-2004 8:13pm

I'm a student and I have a CC.
I don't have a part-time job at the moment.
I got it during a summer when I had a job and use it rarely at the moment if getting say something online (concert tickets etc...) and if i'm every stuck out one nite with no money and need a emergency withdrawal...

so now the government take 40euro for CC + 10 for atm card + 10 for another atm card (was basically given in 1st year of college) ... so that's 60euro just like that?...

and I simply can't afford to pay for it at the minute...

l3rian · 18-04-2004 9:24pm

anyone know of any other ways to avoid this tax? get a card from abroad?

voxpop · 18-04-2004 9:59pm

jesus, if you dont want to pay the 40 quid cancel you credit card, otherwise stop moaning and get up off your ass and vote this government out.

I have not once said that the €40 is aimed at rich ppl, its at ppl who can afford a cc, if your a student /otherwise and cant afford it, drop he credit card - simple as that!

I agree with capistrano that it stifles competition, but as for the idiots who seem to think im going on about ppl with huge incomes... read what ive posted - if you cant afford/dont want to pay the tax - get rid of your credit card. These card make alot for the company issuing them , if enough ppl drop their card because of the €40 tax then the cc companies will take note and lobbie the government to stop the tax!

alleepally · 18-04-2004 9:59pm

"Oh, get a life people. This is one tax that Denis O'Brien does get stuck for (assuming he has an Irish CC).

If the government didn't have stamp duty, they would simply tax something else."

What do you mean get a life people? Are you above all this? You're OK with stealth taxes? You're ok with the fact that this tax isn't based on ability to pay? You're OK that money is taken from your account without you agreeing to it and at a time that may be inconvenient to you (i.e. your stone broke/lost a job and can't pay and then interest is added to your account) ? You're ok that a guy getting a disability payment has to pay the government for the privilege of being able to withdraw his entitlements by ATM?

If you got a letter through the post from revenue demanding €10,€20 or €40 for nothing you'd just give it without question?

The argument of "if they didn't tax this they'd tax something else". fine, bend over and just take everything you're given. I say NO to that and have made my feelings known to TD's in my area.

I wonder would your attitude be the same if the government decided to raise income taxes? At least that would be a fairer way of doing things than this underhanded method.

Meh · 18-04-2004 10:24pm

Originally posted by tom dunne
Don't laugh, but aren't they proposing a tax on company provided mobile phones, laptops and broadband access (being taxed as BIK)?

I work in IT support and we provide 24x7 out of hours support. So a laptop, mobile and broadband access (for those who can get it) are required for my job. Any yet the government want to tax me BIK on it?

No, it's the other way round. McCreevy did tighten up the BiK rules in this year's budget, but he explicitly excluded these things from tax.

http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2003/11/18/story121932.asp
Mr McCreevy also stated that a new BIK exemption will be made for mobile phones, home-based computer equipment and high speed internet connections for business use and where private use is incidental.

"It is not the intention to apply BIK to something that is for business use," the Minister concluded.

seamus · 18-04-2004 10:28pm

Originally posted by alleepally
You're OK with stealth taxes? You're ok with the fact that this tax isn't based on ability to pay?

I know I'm just fine with stealth, or more correctly, indirect taxes. Almost everything is subject to indirect taxation, in the form of VAT. I have a problem with this one in that there's essentially two taxations taking place - on the goods you buy with the card, and then on the card itself. The notion of taxing credits cards is ok, but a blanket €40 is a bit ridiculous. That's a bit like just slapping a blanket €2000 tax cost on every vehicle - regardless of size, cost, or amount of use.
I had a student credit card last year, and got stung with the €40. It had a €350 limit. That was 11.5% of my limit. Someone with a €10,000 limit would only be paying 0.4% of their limit. Where's the rationale in that? If they used this tax against your limit, so you pay say 1% of your limit, that would be fine. When you buy a cheaper product, it's an indication of your ability to afford it, and the nature of VAT means that it's lower too. The limit of your credit card is *primarily based* on your ability to afford it. Why shouldn't this tax also be based upon that limit?

You're ok that a guy getting a disability payment has to pay the government for the privilege of being able to withdraw his entitlements by ATM?

There's no tax on ATM cards. I'm not sure, but the €40 may be on ATM cards that are upgraded to laser cards. This is a whole different ballgame, and like credits cards, you won't get a laser card unless you can afford it. So the guy on disability probably wouldn't get taxed.

Gummy Panda · 18-04-2004 10:40pm

AFAIK there is a €10 tax on ATM cards and €20 if its a Laser card. Searched a bit on BOI's site and not much info besides the credit card tax.

http://www.budget.gov.ie/ should will have all the info you need.

alleepally · 18-04-2004 10:42pm

Yes, indirect taxes we all know about and we all live with them but at least when you buy something you know there is an element of tax there. There is a difference between a stealth tax (which this is) and indirect taxation.... The essential point with this tax is that you DO NOT have a choice in its payment. If I'm a motorist and want to protest against VRT I can choose NOT to buy a new car, thereby depriving the exchequer of the tax take. Not that 1 person will make a difference in such a case, BUT at least I have made the choice.....

"There's no tax on ATM cards. I'm not sure, but the €40 may be on ATM cards that are upgraded to laser cards. This is a whole different ballgame, and like credits cards, you won't get a laser card unless you can afford it. So the guy on disability probably wouldn't get taxed."

Unfortunately there IS a tax on ATM cards, it's €10. If you have laser on your ATM card as well, it's €20.... See, there's stealth tax in action - you didn't even know!!

Anyone with a bank account can have an ATM card, there's no criteria criteria there like there is for a credit card. So the social welfare/disability allowance recipient is charged the tax as well. Somehow, that just isn't right.

seamus · 18-04-2004 10:47pm

Indeed, I am mistaken. €10 is nothing though, regardless of how wealthy you are.

If I'm a motorist and want to protest against VRT I can choose NOT to buy a new car, thereby depriving the exchequer of the tax take. Not that 1 person will make a difference in such a case, BUT at least I have made the choice.....

You can also choose not to have a credit card or ATM card. The key is getting banks to tell you that these charges exist before you avail of the services.

Unfortunately there IS a tax on ATM cards, it's €10. If you have laser on your ATM card as well, it's €20.... See, there's stealth tax in action - you didn't even know!!

I'd never paid it, cos the bank thinks I'm still a student

Anyone with a bank account can have an ATM card, there's no criteria criteria there like there is for a credit card. So the social welfare/disability allowance recipient is charged the tax as well. Somehow, that just isn't right.

If they're on the dole or disability, they don't need an ATM card - they have plenty of free time during the week to go to the bank and withdraw their cash*

*Nobody take me seriously, please. If you're one of these people and can't poke fun at yourself, you need to lighten up

alleepally · 18-04-2004 11:36pm

Admittedly, €10 isn't a lot but stack 'em all together and you might have enough for a few late lunches for barristers at the Mahon Tribunal :-)

Much as I would like to send back my ATM card and take off the laser facility and give back a credit card, I need such things in running my business.

I'd look well paying for €200 lunches with cash in the Berkely now wouldn't I?... Oh my, the shame of it. dirty cash. **

@ I'm ownlee messin. I'm not rich. Even if I was, I'd always bring a hang sangwich for lunch and let the peasants (my employees) have the crumbs!

GerardKeating · 18-04-2004 11:52pm

Originally posted by capistrano
It's just ludicrous. Does anyone know of another country where there is a government tax on having credit cards and ATM cards? I don't mean bank charges - just state charges.

Other european countries also have some form of tax on plastic.

In fact, Italy is proposing a per transaction charge on credit cards, initially it will be 4 cent per transaction.

GerardKeating · 18-04-2004 11:58pm

Originally posted by tom dunne
Thats rubbish, I have one for the past number of years and they are accepted everywhere Visa/Mastercard are accepted. I can't remember the last time I was told an establishment didn't accept AA.

Try booking a flight with RyanAir with your Amex Card, they stopped doing taking them last year after having a spat with them over merchant charges.

American Express is not very attractive for merchants, the charges (from the card issuer) to the merchant are much higher than Visa/Mastercard.

Also Visa/Mastercard tend to settle daily with the merchant. Amex tend to pay the merchant weekly or monthly.

androphobic · 19-04-2004 12:23am

seamus - you have paid it unfortunately:/ even students pay it as its a government tax, not a bank charge (if it was a bank charge we'd get away with it!). easy enough not to notice 10euro being taken though, as opposed to a nasty 40 on your credit card bill.

capistrano · 19-04-2004 9:29am

Originally posted by GerardKeating
Other european countries also have some form of tax on plastic.

In fact, Italy is proposing a per transaction charge on credit cards, initially it will be 4 cent per transaction.

It would take the Italians! Credit Card use is already very low in Italy, and they want to make it even lower by taxing each transaction. I would have thoiught that they would want to see more electronic payments. Right now cash is most definitely king in Italy.

I suppose it's in Berlusconi's interest to keep the black economy going strong!

jesus_thats_gre · 19-04-2004 10:12pm

Originally posted by capistrano
Beware of what's next: tax on mobile phones? Boradband access?

Why not, it fits the pattern of easy money.

Considering the recent introduction of BIK tax and the fact that mobile phone or broadband bills paid for by an employer are not taxable under BIK, I would say you are wrong.

Going Demented · 20-04-2004 2:22pm

Got stuck with the E40 charge on MBNA and AIB visa. Was about to cancel the AIB one (dont use it, owe nothing on it) but they said i would still have to give them E40. So left it open and got charged the first week of april for it.

It's a pile of crap.

capistrano · 20-04-2004 2:34pm

Originally posted by jesus_thats_gre
Considering the recent introduction of BIK tax and the fact that mobile phone or broadband bills paid for by an employer are not taxable under BIK, I would say you are wrong.

I hope you are right. But taxing a mobile phone makes just as much (little) sense as taxing a credit card.

DaithiSurfer · 20-04-2004 2:56pm

so when should i cancel my AIB credit card in order that i get the full year worth of the tax i just paid and don't end up paying another years tax on it.
if that makes any sense

silent · 20-04-2004 3:00pm

if you have a CC now (past april 1st) you will be liable to pay 40E tax next year, it's charged after the year is over (to stop more outcry I guess) - tbh dunno how they want to charge you for that after you don't have your card anymore but I know AIB used to have a 40E cancelation fee which covered this I quess

seamus · 20-04-2004 3:09pm

Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
so when should i cancel my AIB credit card in order that i get the full year worth of the tax i just paid and don't end up paying another years tax on it.
if that makes any sense

As Silent says - Cancel it the last week in March 2005. You'll have to pay the €40 a second time no matter when you cancel it between now and 1st April 2005

NightStrike · 20-04-2004 10:29pm

So how is this 40 euro taken? Is it put on your card's credit card bill or immediately taken out of your account? For talk sake what would happen if you didn't have 40 in your account?

seamus · 21-04-2004 9:26am

Originally posted by NightStrike
So how is this 40 euro taken? Is it put on your card's credit card bill or immediately taken out of your account? For talk sake what would happen if you didn't have 40 in your account?

You wouldn't pay it

It should appear on your bill as "Government Tax"

DaithiSurfer · 21-04-2004 9:32am

The AIB credit card is going in march then. I think the MBNA one wins because better insurance than AIB. I never pay interest on the cards even though i use them all the time.

positron · 22-04-2004 1:09pm

I have an account with Barclays in the UK, and their debit card is Visa. I don't know if they would charge for it, but I am holding on to it hoping that they wont - I generally topup the Barlcays account now and then and use their card for internet shopping.

(I have an MBNA mastercard as well, which I think is worth it - for all those insurance on air travel etc)

ALLGOOD · 23-04-2004 10:27am

I queried this E40 tax pretty fully with my bank and the govt as it felt like I was being robbed. I was told that the govt. would be introducing this tax to "aid the exchequer" as it would yield about 52m in one year. I was also told this tax was "modest" as there hadn't been an increase in credit card tax since 1992.

40 Euro GOVERNMENT TAX on Mastercard

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