Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

Height of an exempted development shed

  • 16-08-2020 1:50pm
    #1
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,273 ✭✭✭


    From what I've read, a detached shed does not need PP if the height is 4 metres for a pitched roof or 3 metres otherwise.

    1) Is there a stipulation on the height of the walls and eaves.

    2) Is there a stipulation on the pitch angle of the roof.

    3) Can the walls and eaves of the shed be higher than those of the house.

    4) Does a "pitched roof" mean a double pitch or could it be a single pitch.

    Reason I ask is, interior height of the shed would be critical for the intended usage.

    Thanks


Comments

  • #2
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/si/600/made/en/print#sched2


  • #3
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,008 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    As far as I could tell...

    1. No.
    2. No.
    3. Yes.
    4. Either.

    However, the "tiled or slated" wording puts a practical limit on the shallowness of the pitch of around 15 degrees, and obviously the wider it is the lower the possible eaves for any given pitch angle.


  • #4
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,273 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Lumen wrote: »
    However, the "tiled or slated" wording puts a practical limit on the shallowness of the pitch of around 15 degrees, and obviously the wider it is the lower the possible eaves for any given pitch angle.
    Yes, that seems to be the crux of the issue. As regards the angle, I have read in some places that 10 degrees plus is regarded as a pitched roof while others say 20 degrees plus. Even if it was practical to have a 10 degree slated roof, could a planning officer decide that the slope didn't fit the common definition of a pitched roof.

    Is there such a thing as lightweight "decorative slates" with a waterproof low slope roof underneath that would a) serve as an effective roof b) comply with the "tiled or slated" requirement in the planning regs.


  • #5
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,008 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    Yes, that seems to be the crux of the issue. As regards the angle, I have read in some places that 10 degrees plus is regarded as a pitched roof while others say 20 degrees plus. Even if it was practical to have a 10 degree slated roof, could a planning officer decide that the slope didn't fit the common definition of a pitched roof.

    Is there such a thing as lightweight "decorative slates" with a waterproof low slope roof underneath that would a) serve as an effective roof b) comply with the "tiled or slated" requirement in the planning regs.

    There's tile-effect roofing from the likes of Gusclad which they claim is fine down to 4 degrees, but I think it's essentially corrugated sheet so can't see that working.

    SIG roofing (to pick a random example) do actual tiles for 12.5 degree pitch (https://www.sigroofing.ie/products/low-pitch-solutions/redland/regent-tiles/).

    The ridgeline difference between 12.5 and 15 degrees is only 47mm per metre either side of the ridgeline, so I'm not sure it's really worth overoptimising - you'd be better off working on the other elements to maximize internal space.

    The other option is to go a little below ground, which might work if there's a bit of a slope nearby to drain to. Since it's exempted development and a shed you don't need a flat threshold for accessibililty.

    But you haven't stated your intended use so it's a bit difficult to say...


  • #6
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,273 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Lumen wrote: »
    But you haven't stated your intended use so it's a bit difficult to say...
    I'm thinking of a golf studio :)


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,424 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    I'm thinking of a golf studio :)

    What’s that?


  • #8
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,273 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Gumbo wrote: »
    What’s that?
    A room where you hit golf balls into a net/screen. They can be basic or very fancy with a projector, launch monitor and simulated golf course etc.. They are becoming increasingly common, Donald Trump has one in the White House.

    No matter how basic or fancy they are, the fundamental requirement is enough space to comfortably swing a club

    ET4Wv4rXQAAQFWB?format=jpg


  • #9
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,424 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    A room where you hit golf balls into a net/screen. They can be basic or very fancy with a projector, launch monitor and simulated golf course etc.. They are becoming increasingly common, Donald Trump has one in the White House.

    No matter how basic or fancy they are, the fundamental requirement is enough space to comfortably swing a club

    ET4Wv4rXQAAQFWB?format=jpg

    No paying customers. Personal use so ancillary to the main dwelling. Shed rules and exemptions should apply then.

    Just remember, this shed (man cave) and any other sheds in your garden cannot breach the 25 Sq. M total when all added together so just be mindful of you ah e another shed for storage etc


  • #10
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,273 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Just remember, this shed (man cave) and any other sheds in your garden cannot breach the 25 Sq. M total when all added together so just be mindful of you ah e another shed for storage etc
    Thanks, I already have a garage which is just under 25 square metres so was wondering if that had already used up most of the exemption. Asked the Council for the planning file (from the 1980s), most of it was "lost", they did find some plans which showed the garage so I am assuming that it did have PP but can't prove it.


  • #11
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,424 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    Thanks, I already have a garage which is just under 25 square metres so was wondering if that had already used up most of the exemption. Asked the Council for the planning file (from the 1980s), most of it was "lost", they did find some plans which showed the garage so I am assuming that it did have PP but can't prove it.

    In the absence of proof then assume no Planning.
    You need to work out if the garage was original.

    Even if the garage got planning, then your exemptions limits will be used up.

    You may actually need planning permission for the shed.


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,273 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Even if the garage got planning, then your exemptions limits will be used up.
    That wasn't my interpretation, are you 100% on this.

    Schedule 2 part 1 class 3 talks about "such structures" needing to have a max aggregate area of <25 sq metres. I took this as meaning such exempt structures as it is the exempt development part of the regs.

    if "such structures" includes all garages, sheds etc., even those that have PP then this entire thread has been a waste as I have about 2 square metres of the 25 remaining for additional sheds.


  • #13
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,424 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    That wasn't my interpretation, are you 100% on this.

    Schedule 2 part 1 class 3 talks about "such structures" needing to have a max aggregate area of <25 sq metres. I took this as meaning such exempt structures as it is the exempt development part of the regs.

    if "such structures" includes all garages, sheds etc., even those that have PP then this entire thread has been a waste as I have about 2 square metres of the 25 remaining for additional sheds.

    Extensions, in 100% sure of. You cannot get permission for a 30 Sq. M extension then add on your 40 exemption.

    Sheds May be different as the wording is slightly different.
    My interpretation comes from :

    2. The total area of such structures constructed, erected or placed within the curtilage of a house shall not, taken together with any other such structures previously constructed, erected or placed within the said curtilage, exceed 25 square metres


  • #14
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,273 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    OK thanks, just looking at the regs for extensions it is very clear
    Where the house has been extended previously, the floor area of any such extension, taken together with the floor area of any previous extension or extensions constructed or erected after 1 October 1964, including those for which planning permission has been obtained, shall not exceed 40 square metres.

    The fact that the line I put in bold is not present in the regs for sheds makes me think that things might be different.

    For sheds, it appears that the exact definition of the term "such structures" is critical.

    I know some people working in a planning dept, i will ask them informally.


  • #15
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,008 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    OK thanks, just looking at the regs for extensions it is very clear
    I think one reason for this is that a planning application for development of the dwelling may trigger a requirement to upgrade water treatment based on an increase in capacity for occupancy of the dwelling.

    So if I was canny mccanny, I would apply for permission to build an extension with plans for purely recreational space but no extra bedrooms/toilets/showers/kitchen, and then subsequently develop those things under exempted development, without triggering the waste treatment upgrade.

    That loophole is closed by the requirement to go back for planning for any subsequent development.

    Please post the results of your informal queries :)


  • #16
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,273 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Going back to the roof angle, I used a triangle calculator and it looks like a double pitch is better for a golf studio than a mono pitch which surprised me.

    If the angle of the roof is required to be 15 degrees and the building is 3 metres wide:

    Mono pitch:
    High wall is 4 metres high
    Low wall is 3.2 metres high
    Mid point of roof is 3.6 metres high

    Double pitch:
    Mid point (ridge) of roof is 4 metres high
    Both walls are 3.6 metres high

    Does this sound correct?


  • #17
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,273 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    The more I think about this, the less feasible it sounds. A 4 metre high, 25 sq metre shed would be quite a monstrosity in my garden. it would be higher than the boundary walls and hedges by ~1.5 metres. There could well be complaints from the neighbours so I'd likely be getting a visit from the planning authority. Everything would have to be perfect.

    The best and least obtrusive place for it would actually be at the side of the house which introduces another condition i.e. the finish of the shed must match that of the house.

    A 3 metre high shed with a near flat roof might work but would require digging out the floor to get the necessary internal height as suggested by Lumen earlier.

    I might have other options for the golf simulator though. Attic in the house is approx 3.5 metres high but a fair amount of structural work and moving of beams would be needed. I tried to engage a structural engineer for an assessment (pre Covid) and nobody seemed interested, may be different now.

    Is raising a ceiling in a single story house a massive and messy job - I presume it is and I have rarely heard of it being done in an existing house. My house is also an unusual design, I don't recall seeing another like it - large hip roof but sides are almost vertical. A triangular prism - like a Toberlone bar.


  • #18
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,424 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Just run with the shed. Keep within the exemptions and leave it at that.

    Trying to adjust floor heights or squeeze this into an attic space will be a nightmare for you long term. It will never be right.


  • #19
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,273 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Just run with the shed. Keep within the exemptions and leave it at that.

    Trying to adjust floor heights or squeeze this into an attic space will be a nightmare for you long term. It will never be right.
    The attic woudn't be that much of a squeeze IF two struts and a few collar ties can be moved or removed. The attic is cavernous, far more headroom than in the house itself. I was kind of thinking of getting the attic floored for storage anyway. Structural engineer required.

    The shed would need to have a sunken floor. That might work. Shed to the side of the house with similar finish to the house would look good.


  • #20
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,424 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    The attic woudn't be that much of a squeeze IF two struts and a few collar ties can be moved or removed. The attic is cavernous, far more headroom than in the house itself. I was kind of thinking of getting the attic floored for storage anyway. Structural engineer required.

    The shed would need to have a sunken floor. That might work. Shed to the side of the house with similar finish to the house would look good.

    Engineer for new beams, new floor joists, now creating an additional floor, so fire safety, escape etc

    Works will be required that effect the whole house. Self closers to downstairs doors etc


  • #21
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,008 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Engineer for new beams, new floor joists, now creating an additional floor, so fire safety, escape etc

    Works will be required that effect the whole house. Self closers to downstairs doors etc

    Self-closers on a two-storey house? It's currently single storey.


  • Advertisement
  • #22
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,008 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    @BrianD3 I get the sense that you're walking yourself into unnecessary expense and complexity.

    I have a gabled roofed 15sqm shed with 3.6m internal height (4m external) and it's fupping massive inside. I deliberately designed it with enough internal head height for a mezzanine floor (usable for a short person), and the eaves are high, but I still have a conventional pitch (with wooden shingles for aesthetics, but it could be slated).

    I'm currently using it as a workshop, but I can't believe you need more room to swing a golf bat than I need to swing around 8x4 sheets of plywood.


  • #23
    3d4life
    Registered Users Posts: 805 ✭✭✭3d4life


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    The more I think about this, the less feasible it sounds. A 4 metre high, 25 sq metre shed would be quite a monstrosity in my garden. it would be higher than the boundary walls and hedges by ~1.5 metres........

    Exactly so.

    There is a new ( last 5 years ) up market ( €1M / unit ) estate up the road from me where someone has done exactly this. Great way to fall out with your neighbours. :(


  • #24
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,424 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    3d4life wrote: »
    Exactly so.

    There is a new ( last 5 years ) up market ( €1M / unit ) estate up the road from me where someone has done exactly this. Great way to fall out with your neighbours. :(

    The exemptions are there for all to enjoy.
    Should the OP not so his shed, then his Neighbor does one in a year What happens.


  • #25
    3d4life
    Registered Users Posts: 805 ✭✭✭3d4life


    Yes indeed Gumbo, so true !


  • #26
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,273 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    I as looking at some steel sheds online, I would probably want a nap finish on the walls and a slated roof.

    Was looking at the Abtech website (as they were one of the few suppliers that mention nap finish on their site) and also saw some info about a height issue that I had been wondering about

    https://www.abtechsteelbuildings.co.uk/frequently-asked-questions-abtech/
    Will I have plenty of headroom?
    Unlike light box-section sheds, the Abtech Steel Building uses deep, cold rolled, C-Sections.

    The added strength these provide mean that we do not need a truss to support the roof so the full height of the room extends to the underside of the ridge.


  • #27
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,273 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    I'm veering towards a block built insulated shed at the side of the house. I could put a plain steel shed directly behind the house but it would be a monstrosity and look sh*t.

    Block shed at side will need to match the finish of the house which means smooth plaster. House has asbestos/cement slates so something that looks like those, not sure if these are technically slates or tiles.

    Approx 4 x 6 metre interior floor area and a 4 metre high double pitch gable roof with a ridge beam? The pitch angle probably isn't as important as I thought it was when I started this thread, I think 20-25 degrees would work although if I could get less than that it would be better again.

    What ballpark would this be in the Midlands - 20k?

    Thanks to all for the posts in the thread


  • #28
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,008 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    I'd go block on flat with external insulation, if the budget stretches. It can then be used for anything, year round.

    Don't have any suggestion around tiles, just make sure you find a product apppropriate for the pitch.

    Re: slates or tiles, IMO they're slates if they're made of slate, and otherwise tiles. There are load of slate-effect tiles (e.g. Tegral "slates") but that's just marketing as far as I can see, and opinions on the longevity of their surface coatings vary.

    The 80s cement tiles on my house look a bit sh!te, but at least they've degraded gracefully and are honest.


Advertisement