Would you work for free?

homes_for_all · 31-07-2020 12:15pm #1

Would you work for free for a company? Like it's pretty common for law graduates to do so, and some design and other fields. Doesn't sit right with me though and I wouldn't do it, nor "hire" someone without paying them. You could argue about getting something from it, but dangling some potential maybes just reeks of awfulness. Like if I asked a photographer to cover my wedding and inso doing he'll get experience.

31-07-2020 12:22pm

As a junior person, getting more experience than the value I put in? Yes, did it when younger and it's a good idea. It's a pretty straightforward calculation.

However, if it's a role where you're already skilled, or for which no special skill is required, then you should of course be paid.

You can't always approach work in an ideological way, sometimes a little flexibi....oh sorry have to go. I'm two minutes late for my third coffee break. I'll just cut it out of my finishing time later.

teednab-el · 31-07-2020 12:27pm

Everyone that works or makes an effort to work in society should be paid in simple terms. Pretty lame by company's to take on someone like students to exploit them fully without payment. I know someone who worked for nothing for 9 months with a company and was over 30 mins away from the place just to get experience with them. They didn't even cover travel expenses. Not on at all IMO.

B.A._Baracus · 31-07-2020 12:36pm

You mean like a boards.ie moderator?

mick087 · 31-07-2020 12:37pm

Working for free can and does tips the scales in favour of a more fruitful career for those who are from a more wealthy background.
Pay a decent living wage as well as getting experience. This will open up the doors for those who are from a lesser wealthy background.

pgj2015 · 31-07-2020 12:50pm

I believe the first thing Trump did when he took over his resort in Clare was to sack a load of employees and replace them with job bridge workers (slaves)

juice1304 · 31-07-2020 12:59pm

I completed a 3.5year apprenticeship being paid E172 a month for a 50hr work week. I guess you could consider that working for free. Yes it was to my advantage as i now have job offers all across the globe as it is a rare profession in high demand. I also had to learn another language to complete it so i would have done it regardless.

31-07-2020 1:10pm

juice1304 wrote: »

I completed a 3.5year apprenticeship being paid E172 a month for a 50hr work week. I guess you could consider that working for free. Yes it was to my advantage as i now have job offers all across the globe as it is a rare profession in high demand. I also had to learn another language to complete it so i would have done it regardless.

They trained you and you got PAID? My daughter just completed a degree and it cost me €3500 a year in fees alone. Why don't people start with that? Thankfully it's also in a field that has lots of jobs. If it's some field where there are thousands chasing a few positions that's a whole other ballgame.

Fair play to you BTW.

EmmetSpiceland · 31-07-2020 1:37pm

No. They’re “buying” my time.

And that is my most valuable “asset” so I’m not going to give it away or sell it cheap.

Leg End Reject · 31-07-2020 1:41pm

I think bad about working when I'm paid, so no.

Work is simply a way of legally accessing money for me.

2smiggy · 31-07-2020 1:44pm

31-07-2020 1:52pm

2smiggy wrote: »

This is the point though. Most people starting off are terrible at "something". I'm against these open ended internships which half the time involve getting coffee for your boss, but if you are learning a valuable skill that can make you a lot of money then I see no issue.

2smiggy · 31-07-2020 2:01pm

Deleted User wrote: »

This is the point though. Most people starting off are terrible at "something". I'm against these open ended internships which half the time involve getting coffee for your boss, but if you are learning a valuable skill that can make you a lot of money then I see no issue.

in my experience those that start out terrible remain terrible. Anyone of any use stand out straight away. Always have paid everyone, even the useless ones. Just keep onto the good ones and pay them more !!

Strumms · 31-07-2020 2:04pm

In my late teens I did some work experience with a car hire multinational out in swords, in their call center. Nice people, very helpful, proactively mentored us and while we didn’t get paid we were guaranteed a reference that they came through with, a very nice glowing reference in fact. You would spend your 6 hour shift observing and taking some calls with a trainer or experienced staff member beside you for feedback or assistance if you got into trouble. Was a good education and learning curve in a nice comfortable and friendly environment.

After my stint there around the same time, I secured work experience elsewhere, in an office environment, during the phone interview it was confirmed that I would be paid and what responsibilities I’d have... it was minimum wage abouts but nice to be getting some cash... or so I thought. ... after about two weeks, nobody had come looking for my bank details, another week passed nada, so I called into the boss to find out what the craic was.... “Strumms, err this is work experience, we hired you on that basis, I can kick this upstairs but I’m err not sure”. If I had been explicitly told from the get go that there was no pay, I’m ok, but the fact the company were talking out both sides of their mouth. Pay wasn’t happening, too rather then observing and helping, I was carrying out the same work as other staff, same responsibilities, my own desk, email etc, meetings, training....I WAS a staff member but not getting compensated, whatsoever.

I had an hour commute there and back too, a busy job, responsibilities equaling my colleagues , one day I didn’t turn up and didn’t answer their calls and two weeks later found a more rewarding gig, financially and every way.

VALUE yourself, your time, efforts and mutual agreements be they over phone or in person or however.

dashoonage · 31-07-2020 2:05pm

juice1304 wrote: »

I completed a 3.5year apprenticeship being paid E172 a month for a 50hr work week. I guess you could consider that working for free. Yes it was to my advantage as i now have job offers all across the globe as it is a rare profession in high demand. I also had to learn another language to complete it so i would have done it regardless.

what was it ? the apprenticeship ?

Dial Hard · 31-07-2020 2:06pm

Not a chance. I was once asked in an interview for a large radio station would I work for free for two weeks to 'prove myself'. I said no and was asked why, my reply was that my time has a value.

They offered me the job and I turned it down. I have no interest in working for an organisation that thinks its doing you some kind of favour by employing you.

the.red.baron · 31-07-2020 2:30pm

dashoonage wrote: »

what was it ? the apprenticeship ?

rent boy

Mister Vain · 31-07-2020 2:32pm

Not unless it was porn.

Dravokivich · 31-07-2020 2:56pm

To be fair, having feck all of a surplus month on month, it kinda feels like you are working for free if you don't really gain anything after it.

homes_for_all wrote: »

Would you work for free for a company? Like it's pretty common for law graduates to do so, and some design and other fields. Doesn't sit right with me though and I wouldn't do it, nor "hire" someone without paying them. You could argue about getting something from it, but dangling some potential maybes just reeks of awfulness. Like if I asked a photographer to cover my wedding and inso doing he'll get experience.

The word you're looking for is exposure.

Oranage2 · 31-07-2020 3:02pm

If it was a specialized field with a high change of employment I would do for a month max, if it was packing shelves at the local supermarket then not a chance.

KaneToad · 31-07-2020 3:04pm

mick087 wrote: »

Working for free can and does tips the scales in favour of a more fruitful career for those who are from a more wealthy background.
Pay a decent living wage as well as getting experience. This will open up the doors for those who are from a lesser wealthy background.

Couldn't agree more. The cards are already stacked in favour of those from wealthy backgrounds:

- private schools (part funded by tax payers)
- access to grinds
- less imperative for part time jobs

leading to better opportunity to access in-demand university places; medicine, dentistry, law, veterinary med..etc..

JimmyVik · 31-07-2020 3:10pm

Years ago I worked for a charity for free.
I started doing about 5 hours per peek and before I knew it they had me doing 10 hours per week, which I was happy enough to do.
One day some head guy from another branch was covering for the head guys holidays.
I walked in about 10 minutes last and he chewed me out of it in from of the other people there.
1 other was doing it for free too.
I just walked out. I heard the door behind me opening and the other guy was walking out to.
We both went to the pub and had a few pints, but decide to go back.
We walked in the door and yer man went off on one again. I dont think anyone told him we were volunteers.
We just turned around and left and never went back. Next day though got a call from the regular boss and he was all apologetic.
Dont ever work for free. People wont appreciate it.

krissovo · 31-07-2020 3:12pm

Its useful for getting experience on a CV when you have none. What are the other options when people are queuing for jobs?

I changed career from a mechanical engineer to IT 20 years ago. No way would I have got a job in IT without some experience and a relevant reference. Its the best investment I ever made, 3 months of real world experience with a well known IT services company and a great 2nd career.

Kylta · 31-07-2020 3:16pm

No. Work for nothing and you'll never be idle

paw patrol · 31-07-2020 4:21pm

Dial Hard wrote: »

Not a chance. I was once asked in an interview for a large radio station would I work for free for two weeks to 'prove myself'. I said no and was asked why, my reply was that my time has a value.

They offered me the job and I turned it down. I have no interest in working for an organisation that thinks its doing you some kind of favour by employing you.

About 2 years ago , I was interviewed by an online gambling crowd in cherrywood. Passed 2 rounds of interview.
Round 3 was to design a solution to a problem, I'd 3 days to draw up a solution to an IT problem they sent me , looked very close to their actual work so i refused. 20years doing what I do and they wanted me to do 3 days work for them for nothing to prove my worth. fcuk that.

I subsequently was told of some guy who spent the day on their site ,unpaid only to be told they selected somebody else

see you next tuesdays.

Man with broke phone · 31-07-2020 4:29pm

Bunch of morons I think adopting moron american culture.

A business needs employees who are trained to work there. If there is a lack of these employees the wages they command can be astronomical. So it benefits the business to train new employees.

The business tells the employees they need to work for free to be trained up because it doesnt benefit them to have employees who arnt trained. A bunch of plebs come in and work for free to get trained up. This benefits the business.

The job pool is full of people with one years experience, now the job pool is diluted. Everybodies wages drop. A bunch of plebs are bragging about working for free because they are good workers. This benefits the business.

People watch some american brain washing film where Will Smth sleeps in a shoe for five years while raising a son and working for free and think thats the way to go. Nobody questions why in the age of milk and honey are people living in shoes and working for free in the supposedly greatest country in the world. Ill tell you why. Plebs that work for free. This benefits the business.

juice1304 · 31-07-2020 5:57pm

Deleted User wrote: »

They trained you and you got PAID? My daughter just completed a degree and it cost me €3500 a year in fees alone. Why don't people start with that? Thankfully it's also in a field that has lots of jobs. If it's some field where there are thousands chasing a few positions that's a whole other ballgame.

Fair play to you BTW.

I also had to pay rent, food bills and travel 600 miles to school 4 months of the year and pay for accomidation there. The 0.86c an hour didnt really cover it. It cost me about 10k a year.
I also had to buy about 5k in tooling.

but ty

juice1304 · 31-07-2020 5:58pm

dashoonage wrote: »

what was it ? the apprenticeship ?

Gunmaker.

Nigel Fairservice · 31-07-2020 9:30pm

I did a graduate work placement thing for a few months back in 2009 when I was signing on. I got €188 a week for full time hours so I was working for next to nothing. I did the post for the office every afternoon on my way home and I'd be stood in the queue in the post office with girls in their pyjamas collecting their €188. That was a bit of a kick in the bollix. It kept me busy for a while I suppose. I worked abroad for a while after the placement ended.

Capt'n Midnight · 31-07-2020 9:57pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

As a junior person, getting more experience than the value I put in? Yes, did it when younger and it's a good idea. It's a pretty straightforward calculation.

If you are guaranteed a life long career it's a good move

For the druids it could take up to 20 years to learn all the ins and outs.

To become a knight you generally had to be a squire for a while.

And apprenticeships were great when the guilds had locked down all the trades.

Today where the beancounters are in a race to the bottom and company loyalty is rare, working for free doesn't usually give the same return on investment.

DM_2092 · 31-07-2020 9:59pm

I'd love to say no. But I feel the reason I never got my dream job in marketing was because I didn't take up an internship in the field when I left college.

That being said, I wasn't let either! My mother wanted me working for $$$.

chrissb8 · 31-07-2020 10:06pm

There's plenty of money going around. Infact it enrages me that they make someone work for free, not covering commuting costs is a big thing in my mind. Paying 100's to come in and work for free. I mean it's different if you are getting paid and coming in, fine that's fair, most do that.

But to know that there are people desperate for experience and to use that to a cynical advantage i.e. treat them poorly. I f*****g hate the whole thing.

Errashareesh · 31-07-2020 11:01pm

Only to do volunteering. Otherwise though, it's repugnant that it's even a thing. Even an internship should pay minimum wage. It's immoral for a business to gain from someone's labour for nothing in return.

That said, I can see why jobseekers would do it when they're desperate for purpose/experience, but it just shouldn't be on the table in the first place.

LuasSimon · 31-07-2020 11:08pm

If anyone here is interested for free Larry Goodman has lots of work for you !

washman3 · 31-07-2020 11:16pm

JimmyVik wrote: »

Years ago I worked for a charity for free.
I started doing about 5 hours per peek and before I knew it they had me doing 10 hours per week, which I was happy enough to do.
One day some head guy from another branch was covering for the head guys holidays.
I walked in about 10 minutes last and he chewed me out of it in from of the other people there.
1 other was doing it for free too.
I just walked out. I heard the door behind me opening and the other guy was walking out to.
We both went to the pub and had a few pints, but decide to go back.
We walked in the door and yer man went off on one again. I dont think anyone told him we were volunteers.
We just turned around and left and never went back. Next day though got a call from the regular boss and he was all apologetic.
Dont ever work for free. People wont appreciate it.

You mean you actually walked away without bursting his jaw....???
That's what cnuts like him deserve..!!

rapul · 31-07-2020 11:20pm

No.

joeguevara · 31-07-2020 11:21pm

As a barrister, once you qualify from kings inns, you have to devil for a year gratis. Most devil for 2. Fully free. No dole. No time for a second job. Luckily I had sold a business so wasn’t an issue but it is a struggle.

Stripes11 · 31-07-2020 11:22pm

No I wouldn't, not even in creative industry where it seems to be very prominent. Unless of course it was charity work that I volunteered to do.

Eire Go Brach · 31-07-2020 11:23pm

krissovo wrote: »

Its useful for getting experience on a CV when you have none. What are the other options when people are queuing for jobs?

I changed career from a mechanical engineer to IT 20 years ago. No way would I have got a job in IT without some experience and a relevant reference. Its the best investment I ever made, 3 months of real world experience with a well known IT services company and a great 2nd career.

I done the same. Got made redundant after being a printer for 18 years. Decided to do something I enjoy again. IT it was. Volunteered in Camara. Great for the CV. Got me a job in IT. It’s experience after all.

Plus it helped doing something the days I was not studying. Better then sitting on your hole at home.

It was fairly relaxed. They did appreciate you to an extent, that you where giving up your time. Lot of wasters from the social sent there as well though.

But charity’s are a bit of a joke though. Your a proper worker lining the actual employees/ ceo pockets. I’d never donate to any of those charity’s.

Man with broke phone · 31-07-2020 11:29pm

joeguevara wrote: »

As a barrister, once you qualify from kings inns, you have to devil for a year gratis. Most devil for 2. Fully free. No dole. No time for a second job. Luckily I had sold a business so wasn’t an issue but it is a struggle.

This is a method to stop poor families getting into law

joeguevara · 31-07-2020 11:35pm

Man with broke phone wrote: »

This is a method to stop poor families getting into law

It was 12k alone to do kings inns. There is definitely a mixture of backgrounds but a large amount from upper echelons. My family wouldn’t have afforded it and I was lucky to sell a business. I’d say 85% of my year have left practicing anyway.

Airyfairy12 · 31-07-2020 11:42pm

Ive seen advertisements recently from volunteer Ireland looking for skilled, educated people to take on volunteer roles that should be paid jobs, ive also seen companies and businesses looking for volunteers to paint the gates and fences surrounding their building or looking for a volunteer to paint a mural on the side of their wall. Its disgraceful really.
As for internships for graduate jobs, if someone has gone to college for 4+ years and likely did work experience in that time, it's a complete joke to expect them to then work for free to gain further experience. Employers are completely ripping the piss, ive recently seen an organisation offering a position for 25K a year, their requirements were an undergrad, a masters, 5+ years experience in a similar role and additional professional development courses.
Employers know that they can exploit workers as there arent enough jobs for graduates so they can offer unpaid positions for 'experience' and get hundreds of applicants. It's similar to the housing crisis, theres not enough homes so landlords can charge what ever they like as they will get plenty of interest. Its very corrupt and only serves the rich.

Errashareesh · 01-08-2020 12:02am

Eire Go Brach wrote: »

I done the same. Got made redundant after being a printer for 18 years. Decided to do something I enjoy again. IT it was. Volunteered in Camara. Great for the CV. Got me a job in IT. It’s experience after all.

Plus it helped doing something the days I was not studying. Better then sitting on your hole at home.

It was fairly relaxed. They did appreciate you to an extent, that you where giving up your time. Lot of wasters from the social sent there as well though.

But charity’s are a bit of a joke though. Your a proper worker lining the actual employees/ ceo pockets. I’d never donate to any of those charity’s.

Surely you're lining the pockets of a business owner when you're doing work for no money in a commercial enterprise. At least with charities, money - whatever percentage of it - is going to a cause. Also there are countless charities of varying size. They're not all Oxfam. A dog and cat charity for instance is not gonna be turning a profit. Since lockdown I've been doing a bit of volunteering for one of the charities for elderly people, and the work they do is incredible - dunno how they spread themselves so thinly. And trying to drum up funds is so so hard.

Is Camara not a charity?

01-08-2020 12:09am

joeguevara wrote: »

As a barrister, once you qualify from kings inns, you have to devil for a year gratis. Most devil for 2. Fully free. No dole. No time for a second job. Luckily I had sold a business so wasn’t an issue but it is a struggle.

They do and can get the Dole for days without work.

But from what I've seen most have a second job?

Greyfox · 01-08-2020 12:13am

No way, companies should be paying minimum wage at the very least instead of taking advantage of people desperate to get experience. Not all graduates are living at home with their parents, I know someone who had to get a loan so they could do an internship, madness.

joeguevara · 01-08-2020 12:15am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

They do and can get the Dole for days without work.

But from what I've seen most have a second job?

Not sure what it’s like now but as you were working every day For your master even during holidays if preparing for trials , you couldn’t get social welfare as you were not available for work. Also it was a breach of the code of conduct. Second jobs were prohibited save some exceptions.

01-08-2020 12:35am

joeguevara wrote: »

Not sure what it’s like now but as you were working every day For your master even during holidays if preparing for trials , you couldn’t get social welfare as you were not available for work. Also it was a breach of the code of conduct. Second jobs were prohibited save some exceptions.

Whatever about the Dole, maybe my flatmate was chancing his arm.

But second jobs are surely commonplace. I have never known a barrister who didn't have another job.

joeguevara · 01-08-2020 12:37am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Whatever about the Dole, maybe my flatmate was changing his arm.

But second jobs are surely commonplace.

Yes. Much more so now. Difficult to do if you have worked a full week and then have research. Depends on how busy your master is though.

01-08-2020 12:50am

joeguevara wrote: »

Yes. Much more so now. Difficult to do if you have worked a full week and then have research. Depends on how busy your master is though.

Sounds like a tough gig alright. Isn't there some rule-of-thumb that it takes (approx) seven years to establish yourself? Might be misremembering that, but the path to becoming an established barrister is surely a daunting one.

joeguevara · 01-08-2020 12:53am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Sounds like a tough gig alright. Isn't there some rule-of-thumb that it takes (approx) seven years to establish yourself? Might be misremembering that, but the path to becoming an established barrister is surely a daunting one.

I don’t really want to derail a good thread but as I said above most leave by year 6. Some in year 10 earning less than 45k. Everything is dependent upon getting briefed by solicitors. Seen some established barristers going back to square one when their briefing solicitor moved or left work etc.

Eire Go Brach · 01-08-2020 8:41pm

Errashareesh wrote: »

Is Camara not a charity?

It’s classed as a charity. I’d see it as a business first charity second. They are now contracting the refurbishment of the PCs out.
But hey it was as good for me as it was for them. That’s the way I look at it.

Would you work for free?

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