Property Market 2020

caviardreams · 09-02-2020 6:28pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

I suspect it would be prudent to procure a copy of SF Eoin O'Broin's book 'Home: Why Public Housing is the Answer' to better familiarise ourselves with what might be coming down the tracks.........

65 copies available through the public libraries - can order in from any branch online and collect in your local library if you're a member:
https://librariesireland.iii.com/iii/encore/record/C__Rb4983783

Assetbacked · 09-02-2020 7:20pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

I suspect it would be prudent to procure a copy of SF Eoin O'Broin's book 'Home: Why Public Housing is the Answer' to better familiarise ourselves with what might be coming down the tracks.........

IT review;

"His mindset is of classic social democracy, respectful of markets, insistent on the need for State intervention, and willing to trawl through and weigh up the often uncertain lessons of policy experiment and academic analysis to work out what shape the market-State combination should take in Ireland’s housing system today. The result is a sober, thoughtful and complex read, justifiably so since no simple formula for success jumps out of history or current international experience."

5.99 on kindle, I just bought it there to give it a read (FG voter 1 and 2 myself but no strong party allegiances).

Mic 1972 · 09-02-2020 8:36pm

I have a feeling the coronavirus will take its toll on global economy in the middle/long run, the property market may stall if fear start to spread in Europe and Ireland that way it has in Eastern Asia

The_Conductor · 09-02-2020 8:41pm

Mic 1972 wrote: »

I have a feeling the coronavirus will take its toll on global economy in the middle/long run, the property market may stall if fear start to spread in Europe and Ireland that way it has in Eastern Asia

Fiat/Chrysler are closing down a factory tomorrow due to lack of parts- and Peugeot (incl. Opel) are going on short hours to preserve supplies of some parts which are beginning to become constrained.

The defacto shutdown of China- is already affecting European communities- and its effects are only going to be magnified, the longer the shutdown continues.

We have had 15 negative test results and 3 that the HSE haven't announced, here in Ireland. There is a degree of inevitability that it is going to make an appearance here- its a matter of when, not if. When it makes an appearance- it is far more communicable than SARS or other viruses- even if its pathology is not as dangerous (it has a mortality rate of approx. 3%).

We're very much in the calm before the storm.

09-02-2020 8:45pm

Offering people Grant's or the ability to borrow more is not the answer. More houses need to be built in high demand areas. Whether they are built by private or public sector doesn't really matter to me.

I would favour compulsory purchase orders of land to get those houses built.

The_Conductor · 09-02-2020 8:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Offering people Grant's or the ability to borrow more is not the answer. More houses need to be built in high demand areas. Whether they are built by private or public sector doesn't really matter to me.

I would favour compulsory purchase orders of land to get those houses built.

I'd just rephrase this- its dwellings that are needed not 'houses'.
In particular we need high density high rise developments in our city centres- and we need to get over the hangups we have about building heights- we are deliberately hamstringing ourselves.

Yes- the SDZs have a part to play- providing they are equipped with necessary facilities, services and amenities (not least of which should be decent public transport)- but the elephant in the corner is the lack of high density developments in our city centres- the absence of which is inexcusable.

JamesMason · 09-02-2020 8:53pm

Mic 1972 wrote: »

I have a feeling the coronavirus will take its toll on global economy in the middle/long run, the property market may stall if fear start to spread in Europe and Ireland that way it has in Eastern Asia

To be fair the property market has already stalled. But I agree with you, the coronavirus health issue will have a major ripple effect on the global economy.

Summer2020 · 09-02-2020 9:03pm

I think people are clutching at straws here in thinking the Coronavirus is going to have an affect on the Irish property market. The threat of Brexit has been looming for the past 3 years and this has only had a negligible affect. The Coronavirus will be yesterdays news once it stabilizes and a vaccine has been developed.

Mic 1972 · 09-02-2020 9:18pm

Summer2020 wrote: »

I think people are clutching at straws here in thinking the Coronavirus is going to have an affect on the Irish property market. The threat of Brexit has been looming for the past 3 years and this has only had a negligible affect. The Coronavirus will be yesterdays news once it stabilizes and a vaccine has been developed.

You make it sound like a vaccine is on its way any time now. Remember that as of today there is no vaccine for SARS, it was never developed. Eventually the SARS virus burnt its self off by killing people too quickly to spread

JamesMason · 09-02-2020 9:20pm

Summer2020 wrote: »

I think people are clutching at straws here in thinking the Coronavirus is going to have an affect on the Irish property market. The threat of Brexit has been looming for the past 3 years and this has only had a negligible affect. The Coronavirus will be yesterdays news once it stabilizes and a vaccine has been developed.

It is clutching at straws to think Brexit is done and dusted. The effects of GDPR, fishing and cross border trade are yet to take effect here. But they will and it won't be pretty. As for the corona virus...any slowdown in the Chinese economy will have a knock on effect for everyone.

garhjw · 09-02-2020 9:21pm

pearcider wrote: »

If SF had put up enough candidates I think it’s clear they would’ve formed the government and Mary Lou would be Taoiseach elect. FG and FF are incredibly out of touch and aloof. Unsurprisingly since most of them are landlord millionaires. They come across as sneering and arrogant and they have no will to tackle the housing crisis as that would impact their bottom line. People are fed up with their elitism. I think. SF cabinet is now just a matter of time.

They didn’t put up more candidates because they couldn’t find more suitable to run within their party. The idea they have the answers to housing and health is laughable. FG policy took too long to come together but it is on the right track. It has nothing to do with landlords or elitism, it is simple economics, supply is impacted by the ability to build house, public or private. There haven’t been enough workers in the past years to ramp up construction at a faster rate. To think the likes of the OPW could build significant volumes of stock......:D

pearcider · 09-02-2020 11:02pm

garhjw wrote: »

They didn’t put up more candidates because they couldn’t find more suitable to run within their party. The idea they have the answers to housing and health is laughable. FG policy took too long to come together but it is on the right track. It has nothing to do with landlords or elitism, it is simple economics, supply is impacted by the ability to build house, public or private. There haven’t been enough workers in the past years to ramp up construction at a faster rate. To think the likes of the OPW could build significant volumes of stock......:D

Absolute rubbish. Irish property market is a cartel run by the very rich and it has been since the Brits set it up that way. It was not always so see the huge house building in the 1960s when we made huge inroads with Sean Lemas at the helm - another IRA man. Or look what they did in Vienna post world war 2. That’s the model we should be following not crony capitalism. Read up on the Kenny report which was buried for and sidelined for 40 years as there was no billions to be made by the crony capitalists in sensible housing policy for the working family. FFG know only one policy and that is the policy of the banker elite in London ie to strap working families into paying huge rent forever or paying off a 35 year mortgage with associated huge interest. Crony capitalism and nothing else. Finally the Irish are waking up to the scam of tweedle dum and tweedle dee. Tiocfaidh ar la.

garhjw · 10-02-2020 12:25am

pearcider wrote: »

Absolute rubbish. Irish property market is a cartel run by the very rich and it has been since the Brits set it up that way. It was not always so see the huge house building in the 1960s when we made huge inroads with Sean Lemas at the helm - another IRA man. Or look what they did in Vienna post world war 2. That’s the model we should be following not crony capitalism. Read up on the Kenny report which was buried for and sidelined for 40 years as there was no billions to be made by the crony capitalists in sensible housing policy for the working family. FFG know only one policy and that is the policy of the banker elite in London ie to strap working families into paying huge rent forever or paying off a 35 year mortgage with associated huge interest. Crony capitalism and nothing else. Finally the Irish are waking up to the scam of tweedle dum and tweedle dee. Tiocfaidh ar la.

What exactly is your point? Where will they magic up all the workers to build the houses? You really think they can make a difference?

Padre_Pio · 10-02-2020 1:40am

garhjw wrote: »

They didn’t put up more candidates because they couldn’t find more suitable to run within their party. The idea they have the answers to housing and health is laughable. FG policy took too long to come together but it is on the right track. It has nothing to do with landlords or elitism, it is simple economics, supply is impacted by the ability to build house, public or private. There haven’t been enough workers in the past years to ramp up construction at a faster rate. To think the likes of the OPW could build significant volumes of stock......:D

That's not true. They have plenty of candidates. There's a big risk of splitting the vote if a constituency can't support the number of candidates you run. Plus the cost in cash and manpower to promote a candidate.

SF never imagined they'd make the gains they made today. If it goes to a second election this Summer, you'll be guaranteed they'll have plenty more candidates on the ballot sheets.

garhjw wrote: »

What exactly is your point? Where will they magic up all the workers to build the houses? You really think they can make a difference?

I do agree with this.
There's only so much land, material and builders available at any one time. We're pretty much maxxed out building at the moment.

It's the same situation in the health service. You can't simply hire more doctors and nurses. The HSE has hundreds of open healthcare professional jobs, but they're in competition with every other western country who are all frantically hiring.

OwlsZat · 10-02-2020 10:03am

garhjw wrote: »

What exactly is your point? Where will they magic up all the workers to build the houses? You really think they can make a difference?

How do you know if you don't try. FG's attempts at increasing building output has been pitiful. Along with the health fiasco the very reason they will find themselves out of Government.

MayoSalmon · 10-02-2020 10:06am

OwlsZat wrote: »

How do you know if you don't try. FG's attempts at increasing building output has been pitiful. Along with the health fiasco the very reason they will find themselves out of Government.

They will try and they will fail and then the harsh realities of expecting the government to provide all or at least highly subsidize your life will soon be revealed to be a Utopian fairytale it always was.

AlmightyCushion · 10-02-2020 10:15am

OwlsZat wrote: »

How do you know if you don't try. FG's attempts at increasing building output has been pitiful. Along with the health fiasco the very reason they will find themselves out of Government.

Property completions have been increasing at double digit percentage rates over the past couple of years. That's not pitiful.

10-02-2020 10:16am

OwlsZat wrote: »

How do you know if you don't try. FG's attempts at increasing building output has been pitiful. Along with the health fiasco the very reason they will find themselves out of Government.

we had 20k+ completions last year, the problem is that the vast vast majority of these were build to lets by institiuational investors and very few went for sale on the open market despite the worst housing shortage in modern history in ireland.

FG had no appetite to change this. This is something that could be rectified very fast

10-02-2020 10:19am

Does anyone know where to find exact figures of how many of the 20k completions last year went directly to let and not sold on the open market?

10-02-2020 10:23am

19233974 wrote: »

we had 20k+ completions last year, the problem is that the vast vast majority of these were build to lets by institiuational investors and very few went for sale on the open market despite the worst housing shortage in modern history in ireland.

Does anyone know where to find exact figures of how many of the 20k completions last year went directly to let and not sold on the open market?

1. What difference does that make? It's sill an increase in supply, they're still places for people to live.

2. Is it even true? It doesn't appear if you know or not.

car_radio19834 · 10-02-2020 10:42am

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Property completions have been increasing at double digit percentage rates over the past couple of years. That's not pitiful.

Construction is slowing down already...

car_radio19834 · 10-02-2020 10:47am

Alexander Wrong Shortchange wrote: »

1. What difference does that make? It's sill an increase in supply, they're still places for people to live.

2. Is it even true? It doesn't appear if you know or not.

Oh dear.

There's thousands of people out there who want to buy, but can't because the supply is not there.

For example, me. So obviously, that's one point.

Second, when cuckoo funds own so much property, they set the rates, not the market.

The funds have massive finance, so they set the market rate.

So they can leave their 2k a month asking price there for months without anyone because they're not relying on the monthly income as they care about the capital gain first and foremost.

Whereas the landlord with 3 or 4 properties needs cashflow. If they're not getting 2k a month, they'll drop to 1500 a month to get some money,

People need to wake up to this. but I think the people who are defending them own their own houses so they don't give two ****s about renters.

10-02-2020 10:48am

Alexander Wrong Shortchange wrote: »

1. What difference does that make? It's sill an increase in supply, they're still places for people to live.

2. Is it even true? It doesn't appear if you know or not.

because there is hardly any new build housing stock for sale - forcing people to rent at exorbitant rental prices. The current system is essentially trapping people in the rental system. Im trying to find the figures i seen previously which proves this.

Its an increase in supply, but being used in a way to maximise profits and not solve the housing crisis.

J_1980 · 10-02-2020 10:53am

car_radio19834 wrote: »

Oh dear.

There's thousands of people out there who want to buy, but can't because the supply is not there.

For example, me. So obviously, that's one point.

Second, when cuckoo funds own so much property, they set the rates, not the market.

The funds have massive finance, so they set the market rate.

So they can leave their 2k a month asking price there for months without anyone because they're not relying on the monthly income as they care about the capital gain first and foremost.

Whereas the landlord with 3 or 4 properties needs cashflow. If they're not getting 2k a month, they'll drop to 1500 a month to get some money,

People need to wake up to this. but I think the people who are defending them own their own houses so they don't give two ****s about renters.

Good point.
But Ireland is massively dependent on foreign cash inflows to balance the current accounts. The Irish banking system has negative money supply creation (ie more debt gets repaid than taken out).

AlmightyCushion · 10-02-2020 10:56am

car_radio19834 wrote: »

Construction is slowing down already...

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/housing-construction-jumps-40-in-december-with-activity-concentrated-on-dublin-and-cork-977345.html

In December, new residential units under construction were 40% higher than the December before it.

car_radio19834 · 10-02-2020 11:05am

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/housing-construction-jumps-40-in-december-with-activity-concentrated-on-dublin-and-cork-977345.html

In December, new residential units under construction were 40% higher than the December before it.

And how many sold to the open market.

Marcusm · 10-02-2020 11:36am

car_radio19834 wrote: »

And how many sold to the open market.

Your posts smack of a home ownership crisi not an accommodation crisis. Fact is, the funds are supplying finance which would othrwsie not be available and the rate of pick up of housing supply would not have happened without them irrrespective of individual interests/politics.

THe logical corrollary of your argument is that everytime a tenanted house is sold to an owner-occupier there is loss of housing supply to tenants, i.e. a one-sided analysis.

10-02-2020 11:54am

Marcusm wrote: »

Your posts smack of a home ownership crisi not an accommodation crisis. Fact is, the funds are supplying finance which would othrwsie not be available and the rate of pick up of housing supply would not have happened without them irrrespective of individual interests/politics.

THe logical corrollary of your argument is that everytime a tenanted house is sold to an owner-occupier there is loss of housing supply to tenants, i.e. a one-sided analysis.

well it dosent have to 100% one or the other - why not create a balance where these funds still get to build-to-let, make their very healthy returns but a certain % should be sold therefore creating some supply.

but this will never happen unless govt. policy forces this - nothing would have ever changed under FG and an entire generation would have been trapped in the rental trap

Assetbacked · 10-02-2020 3:09pm

The State can borrow on the international markets at zero cost. This can be used in lieu of "foreign money" to build social housing and would be better than handing over millions to an investment fund in the form of rental assistance.

Mad_maxx · 10-02-2020 3:24pm

Assetbacked wrote: »

The State can borrow on the international markets at zero cost. This can be used in lieu of "foreign money" to build social housing and would be better than handing over millions to an investment fund in the form of rental assistance.

The state won't borrow at near zero if the next government swings sharply left, bond yields will rise

Why not try and entice some of the hundred billion plus sitting in deposit accounts

Assetbacked · 10-02-2020 3:40pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The state won't borrow at near zero if the next government swings sharply left, bond yields will rise

Why not try and entice some of the hundred billion plus sitting in deposit accounts

SF are centre left so there is no "sharp swinging left" and they won't even be in government by themselves or with the actual left-wing headbangers.

10-02-2020 3:53pm

ive been trying to buy for the last year and havent been able to, im lucky in that my rent isnt too insane so think ill definitely hold off and see how this pans out following the election result. Whatever way you cut it, supply is going to be ramped up and there will be a move away from institutional investors controlling the market

The_Conductor · 10-02-2020 3:57pm

I don't understand why people imagine that supply is going to be ramped up.
We built almost 21k units last year- which is roughly the supply that Sinn Féin suggested they would construct- they are not undertaking to do anything that hasn't been done...…… (other than move construction out of the private sector and back into the public sector).

I just don't see any massive change happening.

AlmightyCushion · 10-02-2020 4:15pm

Assetbacked wrote: »

The State can borrow on the international markets at zero cost. This can be used in lieu of "foreign money" to build social housing and would be better than handing over millions to an investment fund in the form of rental assistance.

That money still has to be paid back even if it is borrowed at low rates. Plus if we borrow a lot that will likely be seen as riskier and push our rates up.

l5auim2pjnt8qx · 10-02-2020 4:20pm

If there is a Will there is a way is the olde saying,much public housing is much needed in this country which as been largely ignored BY FG/FF in the last 20 years.Neither of these parties have or had the creative Will for this change.

At the moment in Dublin West I see blocks of Social Charity blocks/developments going up and equally for Corporations,this in itself is a total mess and goes against the plannning agreements of this country where a certain percentage should be distributed approximately, what we are seeing are the ghetto's of the future as Dublin West is seen somewhat of a dumping ground for Social Housing by FG & Councils and Wealthier areas in ,South Dublin and Wicklow are still using loopholes to avoid/discriminate against Social Housing.

Whatever government does get in I hope for the sake of the country that is more left wing than the extreme dangerous right wing we have seen for the last 20 years.China was able to build a Hospital in 10 days and bed 1,000 people, fast tracking is needed to build social housing distributed in WEALTHIER AREA'S
to avoid inequality & discrimination which is still endemic particularly by the wealthy in our society.
Millions should be extracted from the corporations with immediate effect as they are just a parasite in our society and should be used for the large scale public housing operation,there won't be a flight of Corporations leaving the country as these Corporations are locked for at least another 5 years and it should put the breaks on any new ones looking to come into the country as they are not needed.

We also need to import builder/developers/from other countries namely China
and encourage these new developers to take on 50 percent young Irish Citizens as apprenticeships.....The country needs Radical Change and without a Radical New Government these changes won't happen.....what this means for property prices and rental figures in the future has yet to be played out but it is starting to look POSITIVE for the young.

dubrov · 10-02-2020 4:20pm

The_Conductor wrote:

I just don't see any massive change happening.

I guess it all comes down to whether you believe the government can build houses cheaper than the private sector plus their profit.

Recent history suggests no by a long way

Assetbacked · 10-02-2020 4:21pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

That money still has to be paid back even if it is borrowed at low rates. Plus if we borrow a lot that will likely be seen as riskier and push our rates up.

The alternative is for the State to assist with the payment of rents which will end up costing more in the long run but the State won't even own the asset.

OwlsZat · 10-02-2020 4:51pm

Assetbacked wrote: »

The alternative is for the State to assist with the payment of rents which will end up costing more in the long run but the State won't even own the asset.

The state has capital and land. It must build homes. Deciding the state would stop building housing at a time when labor was cheapest was a monumental mistake, one that partly cost the Government their position.

OwlsZat · 10-02-2020 4:59pm

dubrov wrote: »

I guess it all comes down to whether you believe the government can build houses cheaper than the private sector plus their profit.

Recent history suggests no by a long way

The land cost is often free so the state should have no problem. Contract out the work just as the funds do their building. Then setup the contracts so the state doesn't pickup the bill for overruns. That ought to stop the practice of people pricing unrealistically to get the contract and then adding all overruns to the final price.

dubrov · 10-02-2020 5:57pm

OwlsZat wrote: »

The land cost is often free so the state should have no problem. Contract out the work just as the funds do their building. Then setup the contracts so the state doesn't pickup the bill for overruns. That ought to stop the practice of people pricing unrealistically to get the contract and then adding all overruns to the final price.

Giving away public land is certainly not free. You can only do it once and are cashing in the possible use by future generations for a quick fix now.

The government would certainly tender out the work but it will just be taken up from the existing builder pool. Capacity is growing in the Irish market, but slowly.
Fixed priced contracts sound good but will end up costing more.
Would you prefer to pay 400k fixed price or 300k which doesn't cover unexpected risks? There is no right answer but I suspect any costings have been done at the lower price while the tenders issued will be for a fixed price.

Government requirements tend to be overly onerous as well which bumps up the overall cost even more.

Here are a few examples from Google for a government built scheme There are many other examples out there.

awec · 10-02-2020 5:59pm

OwlsZat wrote: »

The land cost is often free so the state should have no problem. Contract out the work just as the funds do their building. Then setup the contracts so the state doesn't pickup the bill for overruns. That ought to stop the practice of people pricing unrealistically to get the contract and then adding all overruns to the final price.

Nobody would ever agree to this.

dubrov · 10-02-2020 6:05pm

Just to summarise the above article on Dublin social housing schemes, the below gives the initial estimates vs current estimates/actual cost excluding council costs
Ballyfermot: 220k Vs 362k
North Inner-City: 233k Vs 420k
Cherry Orchard: 220k Vs 222k

The last project shows it is possible but unlikely

The_Conductor · 10-02-2020 6:07pm

awec wrote: »

Nobody would ever agree to this.

Lots of contractors agree- its called a fixed price contract- where the price doesn't differ, regardless of the resources or time overruns that occur. This is as opposed to the cost-plus contracts that most of us are familiar with in the Irish public sector- where project delivery balloons beyond any comprehension.

The Irish Times did a good write up on it a while back: https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi1lbHiu8fnAhWzuXEKHTMjBxsQFjALegQIBBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fwith-a-little-care-public-projects-can-cost-much-less-1.442219&usg=AOvVaw12mZLwtwtKLcL5YPNxqtEZ

awec · 10-02-2020 6:10pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Lots of contractors agree- its called a fixed price contract- where the price doesn't differ, regardless of the resources or time overruns that occur. This is as opposed to the cost-plus contracts that most of us are familiar with in the Irish public sector- where project delivery balloons beyond any comprehension.

The Irish Times did a good write up on it a while back: https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi1lbHiu8fnAhWzuXEKHTMjBxsQFjALegQIBBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fwith-a-little-care-public-projects-can-cost-much-less-1.442219&usg=AOvVaw12mZLwtwtKLcL5YPNxqtEZ

For large scale property development?

If so, I stand corrected.

Seems like a very risky contract clause for a business to take when dealing with a notoriously inefficient, bureaucratic public sector that pretty much never does anything on time or on budget.

The_Conductor · 10-02-2020 6:12pm

awec wrote: »

For large scale property development?

If so, I stand corrected.

Most of the contracts that they've trialled this on have been related to road construction and the schools building programme- as opposed to residential property development- but they do have a working model, there is no reason it shouldn't be applied to property construction.

OwlsZat · 10-02-2020 6:17pm

awec wrote: »

Nobody would ever agree to this.

The private sector runs almost exclusively on these contracts. Sometimes there is a % breakdown or an excess but they are very common.

awec · 10-02-2020 6:18pm

OwlsZat wrote: »

The private sector runs almost exclusively on these contracts. Sometimes there is a % breakdown or an excess but they are very common.

Big difference doing business with a private business and doing business with the public sector.

Mad_maxx · 10-02-2020 6:32pm

Assetbacked wrote: »

SF are centre left so there is no "sharp swinging left" and they won't even be in government by themselves or with the actual left-wing headbangers.

FF are centre left

SF are far left

SozBbz · 10-02-2020 6:37pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

FF are centre left

SF are far left

Its a scale of leftness.

FF like to lean slightly left, SF are much more to the left, but not as far left as the SolPBP brigade.

Wildly Boaring · 10-02-2020 7:08pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Lots of contractors agree- its called a fixed price contract- where the price doesn't differ, regardless of the resources or time overruns that occur. This is as opposed to the cost-plus contracts that most of us are familiar with in the Irish public sector- where project delivery balloons beyond any comprehension.

The Irish Times did a good write up on it a while back: https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi1lbHiu8fnAhWzuXEKHTMjBxsQFjALegQIBBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fwith-a-little-care-public-projects-can-cost-much-less-1.442219&usg=AOvVaw12mZLwtwtKLcL5YPNxqtEZ

Yep happens all the time.
But the client isn't allowed change their mind and add to scope. All Gov departments seem incapable of this.

CAN also be dearer as contractors must "price the risk"

Property Market 2020

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