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EV batteries

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  • 08-03-2019 5:27pm
    #1
    skinthegoat
    Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭


    Forgive me if this has been covered before, but how do you make a judgement on the state of a battery when buying a second-hand EV? Following on from that, how much does it cost to replace the batteries, should that become necessary? There's no way I could afford a new one, but I'm looking at replacing my 21-year-old Corsa from GB - before Brexit cuts me off! I'd probably be looking at a 4 or 5 year old Leaf or Zoe.


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    #2
    AhHaor
    Registered Users Posts: 296 ✭✭AhHaor


    From a leaf point of view:

    Get an OBD dongle and connect using Leafspy app. You'll need to look at the SOH (state of health) 4 to 5 years old will ideally be above 90%. Below 85% and you'll lose a bar, there's a big physiological barrier here. The other number you can check is the amount of QC, quick charges, there's no guide here, but if it's above the number of Q1Q2 charges I'd be a bit worried. Unless there's an explanation.

    I wouldn't worry about battery replacement, you don't worry about engine replacement costs buying a car, so I wouldn't worry with an EV.


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    #3
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    AhHaor wrote: »
    The other number you can check is the amount of QC, quick charges, there's no guide here, but if it's above the number of Q1Q2 charges I'd be a bit worried. Unless there's an explanation.
    .

    Why is that?


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    #4
    AhHaor
    Registered Users Posts: 296 ✭✭AhHaor


    kceire wrote: »
    Why is that?

    I did say there's no guide here, but I'd just be a bit concerned that the excess heating could have an affect on the batteries. I'm not saying it's definitive. But if you offered me equivalent leafs with one having say 500 QC and 120 Q1/Q2 and one 120 QC and 500 Q1/Q2 and no other differences I'd go the lower QC number leaf.


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    #5
    skinthegoat
    Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭skinthegoat


    That's great information, many thanks.


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    #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Leaf counts L2 charges twice.

    Just go with the leaf that offers you the most Kwh and get a leaf from 2014 as it had a better battery and get a 30 Kwh if you can , more range the better. 30 Kwh came about early 2016.

    Leaf 24 Kwh had about 21-22 Kwh max usable so leaf spy can tell you how much is available now. Average efficiency would be about 18-19 Kwh/100 Km which is exactly 5.55 - 5.26 Km per Kwh.

    Faster driving on the motorway can be 22-23 Kwh/100 Km

    Older batteries will have lost some Kwh.


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    #7
    bilbot79
    Registered Users Posts: 1,979 ✭✭✭bilbot79


    How much would it cost to fully replace an old battery on a leaf and can you put a new 30kwh battery into an older model?


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    #8
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,835 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    bilbot79 wrote: »
    How much would it cost to fully replace an old battery on a leaf and can you put a new 30kwh battery into an older model?

    It would make no economic sense to do so. Instead of paying €6k for a 2012 Leaf with a degraded battery and having it replaced for €6k (making the car worth no more than €7k), you are far better off buying a 2014 Leaf with the better battery from about €9k


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    #9
    samih
    Registered Users Posts: 2,795 ✭✭✭samih


    There is also no official method to upgrade 24->30 kWh but anything is possible.


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    #10
    slave1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,718 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    There is at least one 2011 (first gen) Leaf out there running on 60kWh pack but this is not official Nissan.
    In time unofficial battery replacement suppliers will pop up that will either directly replace or upgrade depleted batteries, all unofficial of course but then it's your car so you can do what you like with it.

    My stuff for sale on Adverts inc. outdoor furniture, roof box and EDDI

    My Active Ads (adverts.ie)



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    #11
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,835 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Stick a 60kWh pack in a 2011 Leaf and re-progam the controller to output 300kW to the motor. Great times we live in. I'm doing similar stuff to my eBike at the mo :p


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    #12
    Silent Running
    Registered Users Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭Silent Running


    unkel wrote: »
    Stick a 60kWh pack in a 2011 Leaf and re-progam the controller to output 300kW to the motor. Great times we live in. I'm doing similar stuff to my eBike at the mo :p

    An e-bike with a 60kWh battery and 0-100km times of sub 2 seconds? Where do I sign. :p:D


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    #13
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,835 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    No need to sign, just start building it :p

    If you're interested, check out my eBike thread :)

    Linky


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    #14
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    Battery degradation is a big issue not being discussed and will impact the longevity and economic value of these cars moving forwards.


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    #15
    bilbot79
    Registered Users Posts: 1,979 ✭✭✭bilbot79


    Replacement batteries instead of replacement cars has to be more environmentally friendly. Engine degradation is the main reason to change your ICE car not appearance. Classic cars of the future could be driving perfectly with brand new batteries.


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    #16
    slave1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,718 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    Lantus wrote: »
    Battery degradation is a big issue not being discussed and will impact the longevity and economic value of these cars moving forwards.

    You're having a laugh, right?
    Battery degradation is part and parcel of EV ownership, there are explicit warranties given by manufacturers and this is a constant topic of conversation on this forum.
    To date - and please correct me fellow long termers - we have no battery warranty failures reported with some cars e.g. Ioniq and I3 proving extremely resilient

    My stuff for sale on Adverts inc. outdoor furniture, roof box and EDDI

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    #17
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    slave1 wrote: »
    You're having a laugh, right?
    Battery degradation is part and parcel of EV ownership, there are explicit warranties given by manufacturers and this is a constant topic of conversation on this forum.
    To date - and please correct me fellow long termers - we have no battery warranty failures reported with some cars e.g. Ioniq and I3 proving extremely resilient

    I don’t think we even have battery failure from the 2011 Leaf so that poster may have just touched both poles of his battery pack and is a little disoriented:)


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    #18
    Orebro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭Orebro


    I saw a Nissan presentation recently and they said they had something like 3 battery failures in the wild out of the 100's of thousands of Leafs they've made!


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    #19
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Some inventor says he has a new battery that'll do 1,500miiles in one go.
    Essentially (any) metal, dipped into a (secret formula) electrolyte can be used, triggers a reaction between the metal and air to produce a huge amount of electricity.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7592485/Father-eight-invents-electric-car-battery-drivers-1-500-miles-without-charging-it.html#comments
    an independent evaluation by the Government agency UK Trade and Investment said in 2017 that it was a ‘very attractive battery’ based on ‘well established’ technology, and that it produced much more energy per kilogram than standard electric vehicle types.

    Also classed as fuel cell, rather than battery.
    Could be a game changer, if it works.


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    #20
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,013 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Mae Hallowed Liquor wrote: »
    Some inventor says he has a new battery that'll do 1,500miiles in one go.
    Essentially (any) metal, dipped into a (secret formula) electrolyte can be used, triggers a reaction between the metal and air to produce a huge amount of electricity.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7592485/Father-eight-invents-electric-car-battery-drivers-1-500-miles-without-charging-it.html#comments


    Also classed as fuel cell, rather than battery.
    Could be a game changer, if it works.

    Eh, the minor drawback of aluminium-air cells are that they are non-rechargeable. :D


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    #21
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Lumen wrote: »
    Eh, the minor drawback of aluminium-air cells are that they are non-rechargeable. :D
    Indeed as stated already and in the article it's a small fuel cell, that behaves a bit like a battery, well in terms of convenience, quick re-supply and so on.

    Even if it works, can't see it getting past the big car co's and oil producers.


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    #22
    BKtje
    Registered Users Posts: 8,035 ✭✭✭BKtje


    I have a question regarding batteries in winter.

    Range decreases in winter for various reasons:
    - Use of heating elements to heat the cabin.
    - Generally wetter weather which increases energy required to move the car.
    - Batteries don't like the cold.

    Now obviously the first two the energy is being used but for the third I'm wondering what happens to the energy. Is it still there and just not available? The reason I'm asking is that I'm trying to calculate charging costs and if the energy is still there but not available then I don't have to pay for it however if it is used due to increased resistance or whatever I would need to factor that in in my calculations.

    Thanks!


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    #23
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,149 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    BKtje wrote: »
    I have a question regarding batteries in winter.

    Range decreases in winter for various reasons:
    - Use of heating elements to heat the cabin.
    - Generally wetter weather which increases energy required to move the car.
    - Batteries don't like the cold.

    Now obviously the first two the energy is being used but for the third I'm wondering what happens to the energy. Is it still there and just not available? The reason I'm asking is that I'm trying to calculate charging costs and if the energy is still there but not available then I don't have to pay for it however if it is used due to increased resistance or whatever I would need to factor that in in my calculations.

    Thanks!

    Consumption goes up in winter so you use more energy to do less. I've already had to start charging the car every two nights as opposed to three in the last couple of weeks.


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    #24
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,072 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    BKtje wrote: »
    I have a question regarding batteries in winter.

    Range decreases in winter for various reasons:
    - Use of heating elements to heat the cabin.
    - Generally wetter weather which increases energy required to move the car.
    - Batteries don't like the cold.

    Now obviously the first two the energy is being used but for the third I'm wondering what happens to the energy. Is it still there and just not available? The reason I'm asking is that I'm trying to calculate charging costs and if the energy is still there but not available then I don't have to pay for it however if it is used due to increased resistance or whatever I would need to factor that in in my calculations.

    Thanks!

    The fuel cost difference between ICE and EV is so large that that 3rd element wont change your calculations much, if any.

    Dont bother with it in your calculations as the variability in your personal driving style and the car you pick will play a much much bigger part than cold weather.

    For calculating just pick a kWh/100km figure for good and bad weather and that will be as accurate as you need and dont forget the charging losses... 8% is about right.


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    #25
    BKtje
    Registered Users Posts: 8,035 ✭✭✭BKtje


    So basically as I suspected, the energy is used to overcome the increased internal resistance in the battery and therefore used. Thank you :)

    While I agree that ev is going to be cheaper in any case, an increase in around 25-40% during the winter months will have an impact for me here where the winters are longer and colder than in Ireland. I also don't have the possibility to charge at home so am reliant on more expensive public infrastructure where a 40% increase in usage could push the price, in certain cases, towards petrol levels.

    Thanks for the replies folks :)


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    #26
    samih
    Registered Users Posts: 2,795 ✭✭✭samih


    BKtje wrote: »
    So basically as I suspected, the energy is used to overcome the increased internal resistance in the battery and therefore used. Thank you :)

    While I agree that ev is going to be cheaper in any case, an increase in around 25-40% during the winter months will have an impact for me here where the winters are longer and colder than in Ireland. I also don't have the possibility to charge at home so am reliant on more expensive public infrastructure where a 40% increase in usage could push the price, in certain cases, towards petrol levels.

    Thanks for the replies folks :)

    The ICE fuel consumption also increases a lot in proper cold winter especially when driven short distances.


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    #27
    BKtje
    Registered Users Posts: 8,035 ✭✭✭BKtje


    samih wrote: »
    The ICE fuel consumption also increases a lot in proper cold winter especially when driven short distances.

    Very true but my commute is 95% motorway and 110km round trip which are all negatives against an electric car. That said i'm just deciding which one and when :)


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