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The future of the Bray-Greystones line

124

Comments

  • #152
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Yeah that third lane on the M50 solved it alright

    Is there a designated public transport lane at peak times on the m50? This scheme needed 3 lanes years ago.

    If there was a plan for proper rail based public transport that would actually be delivered in the short to medium term , 3 lanes might be ok, with one designated as bus lane at peak times. But there isn’t


  • #153
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Is there a designated public transport lane at peak times on the m50? This scheme needed 3 lanes years ago.

    If there was a plan for proper rail based public transport that would actually be delivered in the short to medium term , 3 lanes might be ok, with one designated as bus lane at peak times. But there isn’t

    But I don't see what the 3rd lane does to the N11? Why add two more when you could add one, call it a bus lane, and improve capacity?


  • #154
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    a poster on skyscrapercity has outlined the schemes with pp or applying for pp in the greystones area, the amount of development planned is huge! think its a page back from the link I posted (Im having issues accessing the exact page on a desktop)

    https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1895989&page=118


  • #155
    patrickbrophy18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,310 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    I came up with the following alignment on Google Earth (very hypothetical) and would indicate how the Bray to Greystones route could've looked if it had been aligned west of Bray Head instead of east:

    Bray Greystones Western Rail Loop

    I'm not too sure about elevation gradients. However, the section of side track between Convent Avenue and Putland Road would descend into a tunnel beneath the vicinity of New Court.

    It would then travel in the direction of Boghall Road with a new station underground to serve ALDI and Power City.

    Another station at ground level would be located at Bray Business Park on the Southern Cross Road and would serve the population on the Southern Cross Road who (in my opinion) have been completely side-lined from a public transport provision perspective.

    Another ground level station would * eventually be provided behind Kilruddery House and Gardens which would be there to serve Bray Golf Club as well as Rathdown.

    *:Pending any potential future growth in the population.

    Again, this is purely hypothetical.


  • #156
    MrAbyss
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 426 ✭✭MrAbyss


    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    I came up with the following alignment on Google Earth (very hypothetical) and would indicate how the Bray to Greystones route could've looked if it had been aligned west of Bray Head instead of east:

    Bray Greystones Western Rail Loop




    It is a great idea and along with solving the tunnel problem also highlights the catchment issues with most of the DART: that it only serves commuters on one side and fish and seagulls on the other. I like this, but it would cost more than anyone in Ireland would dare to spend. Also elevating the line would be easier.


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  • #157
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,867 ✭✭✭SeanW


    If we assume that nothing radical is going to be done with the current Bray-Greystones line (like a whole new tunnel), then is there anything to be gained by double-tracking the parts of the line immediately South of Bray and immediately North of Greystones. By that I mean, excluding the tunnels and the short sections between them


  • #158
    loyatemu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,104 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    SeanW wrote: »
    If we assume that nothing radical is going to be done with the current Bray-Greystones line (like a whole new tunnel), then is there anything to be gained by double-tracking the parts of the line immediately South of Bray and immediately North of Greystones. By that I mean, excluding the tunnels and the short sections between them

    that option is examined in this report: http://derekmitchell.ie/wp-content/up/Jacobs_NTA-Greystones-Improvements19.pdf

    though I assume that report is now sitting on a shelf as I haven't heard of the works being included in the Dart Upgrade.


  • #159
    loyatemu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,104 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    I came up with the following alignment on Google Earth (very hypothetical) and would indicate how the Bray to Greystones route could've looked if it had been aligned west of Bray Head instead of east:

    Bray Greystones Western Rail Loop

    I'm not too sure about elevation gradients. However, the section of side track between Convent Avenue and Putland Road would descend into a tunnel beneath the vicinity of New Court.

    It would then travel in the direction of Boghall Road with a new station underground to serve ALDI and Power City.

    Another station at ground level would be located at Bray Business Park on the Southern Cross Road and would serve the population on the Southern Cross Road who (in my opinion) have been completely side-lined from a public transport provision perspective. If they had been permitted to go inland at the time, it's likely it would have passed through the area marked "Templecarrig" as that's the flattest route, though it would still have required some deep cuttings.

    Another ground level station would * eventually be provided behind Kilruddery House and Gardens which would be there to serve Bray Golf Club as well as Rathdown.

    *:Pending any potential future growth in the population.

    Again, this is purely hypothetical.

    A line via Windgates would have to be in a tunnel as it's very steep. Also bear in mind the station in Greystones is only where it is because they chose the coastal in route in the C19th. It probably would have been further inland otherwise.


  • #160
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    loyatemu wrote: »
    that option is examined in this report: http://derekmitchell.ie/wp-content/up/Jacobs_NTA-Greystones-Improvements19.pdf

    though I assume that report is now sitting on a shelf as I haven't heard of the works being included in the Dart Upgrade.

    It was only submitted to the NTA in April, and has many questions yet to be answered by IR (I assume that they've answered them by now, IR can't be that bad, can they?). It's probably not far enough along to include in the Dart Expansion.

    There's also a CBA aspect to it as well. If IR say that the line speed can be 40 kph, then they can increase from 2 to 3 trains per hour per direction. If the line speed is 30 kph, then only one direction per hour gets an extra train. At that point, is it worth it? There's plenty of other projects that'll have more benefit for a lot more people.


  • #161
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    CatInABox wrote: »
    It was only submitted to the NTA in April, and has many questions yet to be answered by IR (I assume that they've answered them by now, IR can't be that bad, can they?). It's probably not far enough along to include in the Dart Expansion.

    There's also a CBA aspect to it as well. If IR say that the line speed can be 40 kph, then they can increase from 2 to 3 trains per hour per direction. If the line speed is 30 kph, then only one direction per hour gets an extra train. At that point, is it worth it? There's plenty of other projects that'll have more benefit for a lot more people.
    One of the issues is that someone needs to take a long term approach to this line. If the coastal line becomes unviable in 10 years, then it's time to start the planning and design for the replacement tunnel inland now.

    There is no feasible way that the line south of Bray can be just left to collapse into the sea. There is simply no way to cater for the passengers from Greystones and surroundings, and that's before the current ongoing expansion of the area is taken into account.


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  • #162
    MrAbyss
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 426 ✭✭MrAbyss


    marno21 wrote: »
    One of the issues is that someone needs to take a long term approach to this line. If the coastal line becomes unviable in 10 years, then it's time to start the planning and design for the replacement tunnel inland now.


    They will working on a slick video and a PDF in about 80 years time.


  • #163
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Coastal erosion along the cliff section is greatly exaggerated and the new housing development at the harbour in Greystones will be in trouble long before the rail line.

    ****



  • #164
    prunudo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,626 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Coastal erosion along the cliff section is greatly exaggerated and the new housing development at the harbour in Greystones will be in trouble long before the rail line.

    Have you walked along the north beach in recent months? The erosion is real and far from an exaggeration. Maybe not endangering houses yet but the sandy cliffs are getting a battering with every north easterly or easterly storm.


  • #165
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    prunudo wrote: »
    Have you walked along the north beach in recent months? The erosion is real and far from an exaggeration. Maybe not endangering houses yet but the sandy cliffs are getting a battering with every north easterly or easterly storm.


    I was referring to the actual Bray Head section as I know the north beach is eroding fast hence my comment regarding the new housing north of the harbour.

    ****



  • #166
    prunudo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,626 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    I was referring to the actual Bray Head section as I know the north beach is eroding fast hence my comment regarding the new housing north of the harbour.

    Yeah, I certainly wouldn't be spending €1m on a house down there anytime soon.

    Edit. Not that I'd be spending a €1m on a house anywhere anytime soon either.


  • #167
    loyatemu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,104 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Bray Head is surrounded by rock armour, as is the marina development and attached houses. The bit in between is only protected by a beach that is practically non-existent at high tide.

    Having said that if you look at the aerial photos on OSI.ie and the maps from the 19th century there, there doesn't seem to have been that much change in the line of the cliffs (though I know from local knowledge that it is eroding - the old railway bridge from before the line was moved inland was washed away only quite recently).


  • #168
    MrAbyss
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 426 ✭✭MrAbyss


    prunudo wrote: »
    Have you walked along the north beach in recent months? The erosion is real and far from an exaggeration. Maybe not endangering houses yet but the sandy cliffs are getting a battering with every north easterly or easterly storm.


    Not the same geology as the rail line though.


  • #169
    prunudo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,626 ✭✭✭prunudo


    MrAbyss wrote: »
    Not the same geology as the rail line though.

    Hope not, the cutting that runs along the field with the cliff walk through it is less than 100m from the cliff edge.


  • #170
    prunudo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,626 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Some photos of the coastal defence works IR are doing this weekend on the Bray/Greystones section.
    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10157632057388805&id=200055098804&sfnsn=mo


  • #171
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    in a money no problem within reason scenario, what would be done here? take a route in land, leave existing line operational. Create this new line with multiple huge park and rides? Replace Dublin metro with DART and go all the way from south of greystones to link with the northern line?


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  • #172
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    in a money no problem within reason scenario, what would be done here? take a route in land, leave existing line operational. Create this new line with multiple huge park and rides? Replace Dublin metro with DART and go all the way from south of greystones to link with the northern line?

    Dart Underground as currently envisaged, followed by a tunnel through Bray Head. The tunnel would probably be the simplest and quickest way of unlocking the potential of the existing lines south of there. Then two track the line all the way out past Wicklow, preferably all the way to Rosslare if I'm dreaming.

    That'd really improve the links with Europe through the ferry port.


  • #173
    prunudo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,626 ✭✭✭prunudo


    I suppose given our fondness for half assed projects we only need a single bore for northbound trains. Should reduce the costs too.


  • #174
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    It would be 5 km of tunnel with no stations. What would that cost?


  • #175
    prunudo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,626 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    It would be 5 km of tunnel with no stations. What would that cost?

    Not sure on costs of tunnelling but if there every is an investment in the line there should be a study into providing a Greystones north station and possibly even moving the current station further south to link up with the park and ride and creating a bus terminus too in the one location.


  • #176
    loyatemu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,104 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    It would be 5 km of tunnel with no stations. What would that cost?

    this was discussed earlier in the thread: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111326592&postcount=114

    IMO it would be mad to just build a single line tunnel and continue to use the existing line - you can see from the photos posted above how much work they have to do to keep it secure. Double-line tunnel wouldn't cost much more, they could convert the existing route into greenway.


  • #177
    prunudo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,626 ✭✭✭prunudo


    loyatemu wrote: »
    this was discussed earlier in the thread: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111326592&postcount=114

    IMO it would be mad to just build a single line tunnel and continue to use the existing line - you can see from the photos posted above how much work they have to do to keep it secure. Double-line tunnel wouldn't cost much more, they could convert the existing route into greenway.

    Good idea with the greenway, I was being flippant with the single bore idea but nothing would surprise me either.


  • #178
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    prunudo wrote: »
    Good idea with the greenway, I was being flippant with the single bore idea but nothing would surprise me either.


    Greenway would be a disaster for the seabird colonies and is not needed as the cliff walk is already there.

    ****



  • #179
    prunudo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,626 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Greenway would be a disaster for the seabird colonies and is not needed as the cliff walk is already there.

    How would a greenway effect the colonies any more than the existing trainline or the parallel cliff walk which isn't really suitable for cycling.
    At some point as a nation we're going to have to face some hard questions. We don't want private cars yet there's no public transport, we don't want urban sprawl yet we're not allowed high rise, we want underground but not under my neighbourhood, we want more cycle lanes or bus lanes but not at the expense of gardens, we want to green energy but not if I can see the wind turbines from my house.
    Either we start seriously tackling these issues or we face a future of gridlock and a very broken society sitting for hours in their cars driving from an ever increasing commuter belt, existing rather than living.


  • #180
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    It's hardly worth arguing about anyway as it's not going to happen - the new tunnel or the greenway.

    ****



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  • #181
    prunudo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,626 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    It's hardly worth arguing about anyway as it's not going to happen - the new tunnel or the greenway.

    Unfortunately you're probably right, but whats the alternative. They can't keep granting planning permission and expecting everyone to drive on the n11.


  • #182
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    prunudo wrote: »
    Unfortunately you're probably right, but whats the alternative. They can't keep granting planning permission and expecting everyone to drive on the n11.

    Planning authorities: Hold my beer...


  • #183
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    prunudo wrote: »
    Sam Russell wrote: »
    It would be 5 km of tunnel with no stations. What would that cost?

    Not sure on costs of tunnelling but if there every is an investment in the line there should be a study into providing a Greystones north station and possibly even moving the current station further south to link up with the park and ride and creating a bus terminus too in the one location.

    I would never suggest a single line tunnel, either the tunnel would take both directions or it would be twin tunnels.

    The real question is whether to take a new route south of the tunnel on a new alignment or connect at Greystones. A massive P&R south of Greystones makes a lot of sense.


  • #184
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    How long before the n11 road upgrade is done ? It will be unbearable there traffic with all the new development!


  • #185
    prunudo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,626 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    How long before the n11 road upgrade is done ? It will be unbearable there traffic with all the new development!

    4 or 5 years minimum I'd say, was talking to someone last week who was doing an ecology survey along the route last week. So not sure how that fits in the current time frame. I believe they were planning on having another public consultation before the end of the year.


  • #186
    ohographite
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    I would support a greenway on the current alignment if there was a double track line running from Bray to Greystones on an alternative route, but would the greenway last on that alignment if the sea is eroding it?


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  • #187
    loyatemu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,104 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    How long before the n11 road upgrade is done ? It will be unbearable there traffic with all the new development!

    only a short section is actually due to be widened (J5 to J7) - the rest of the upgrade is likely to be junction improvements and possibly some parallel service roads to remove local traffic.


  • #188
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    It's hardly worth arguing about anyway as it's not going to happen - the new tunnel or the greenway.

    It won't happen. But don't worry there will be a billion euro a year available for new roads


  • #189
    u140acro3xs7dm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭u140acro3xs7dm


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    It won't happen. But don't worry there will be a billion euro a year available for new roads

    Even if we get double track to Bray, the rest of the Dart line is incredibly slow with constant stopping between stops. Bray to town should take 25-30 mins, maximum. There needs to be at very least an overtaking track for commuter trains.


  • #190
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Rafael Flat Numerical wrote: »
    Even if we get double track to Bray, the rest of the Dart line is incredibly slow with constant stopping between stops. Bray to town should take 25-30 mins, maximum. There needs to be at very least an overtaking track for commuter trains.


    Just where do you think that this 'overtaking' track could be fitted in?

    ****



  • #191
    u140acro3xs7dm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭u140acro3xs7dm


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Just where do you think that this 'overtaking' track could be fitted in?

    We will need to start buying houses and land using cp. If we are talking about new tunnels through bray head, then buying up gardens can't be too hard - that's the plan for bus connect. The dart as is, is far too slow.


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  • #192
    loyatemu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,104 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Rafael Flat Numerical wrote: »
    We will need to start buying houses and land using cp. If we are talking about new tunnels through bray head, then buying up gardens can't be too hard - that's the plan for bus connect. The dart as is, is far too slow.

    the Dart is too slow, it has a lot of slack built into the timetable and some sections have very low speed limits. Bray->Pearse was around 30 minutes when the Dart started, it's now 40 mins (with one extra stop). They should be able to increase the speed limits between Killiney and Dun Laoghaire with some track work.

    The case for building passing loops on that line is weak though - the numbers using the train south of Wicklow Town are very low, the cost/benefit of building loops would be poor.


  • #193
    AAAAAAAAA
    Registered Users Posts: 255 ✭✭AAAAAAAAA


    loyatemu wrote: »
    The case for building passing loops on that line is weak though - the numbers using the train south of Wicklow Town are very low

    This isn't because demand for the line is low, it's because the service is so infrequent and at such useless times that people either drive or take the bus.

    There are only 5 services in each direction and the final train back from Dublin is at 18.30

    Of course no one is going to use the train to Dublin when you have four times the frequency of service and all-day availability with the bus, in addition to the obvious time saving.

    Additionally, commuting between towns in Wicklow by train (with the exception of Bray-Greystones) is functionally impossible. The first train southbound from Bray is at 10.20 - You essentially have to drive to get to Wicklow Town or Arklow (and yeah, people do make those commutes). You then have a four hour gap between trains during home-time heading northbound between 14.xx and 18.xx, useless for commuters [edit: and you're outta luck if you want to head home after 18.xx, even though you only got to work some time around 11]


  • #194
    Macy0161
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,483 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    Without knowing the zoning other issues, I've always felt it was a bit of miss not considering a single line loop rather than double tracking - Greystones, effectively up the Farrankelly Road (serving Charlesland/ Kilcoole etc), aligned to the N11* (offering Park and Ride Options) and back to the existing line (not necessarily to Bray Daly.

    *N11 makes more sense than every widening the road anyway, especially as segregated bus lanes/ increased bus capacity don't seem to be on the agenda.


  • #195
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Rafael Flat Numerical wrote: »
    We will need to start buying houses and land using cp. If we are talking about new tunnels through bray head, then buying up gardens can't be too hard - that's the plan for bus connect. The dart as is, is far too slow.

    You are talking about spending billions for a line that carries just 600 people a day!

    Neither a new tunnel or triple tracking will happen in our life times.


  • #196
    u140acro3xs7dm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭u140acro3xs7dm


    bk wrote: »
    You are talking about spending billions for a line that carries just 600 people a day!

    Neither a new tunnel or triple tracking will happen in our life times.

    As people have mentioned, it is due to lack of supply, not lack of demand. There could also be a demand for express Darts - stopping at Bray, Dun Laoghaire, Blackrock then town. If you want any of the stops in between, you wait for every 2nd or 3rd Dart. There are thousands of houses getting built south of Bray, most new residents work in Dublin - something has to happen.


  • #197
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Rafael Flat Numerical wrote: »
    As people have mentioned, it is due to lack of supply, not lack of demand. There could also be a demand for express Darts - stopping at Bray, Dun Laoghaire, Blackrock then town. If you want any of the stops in between, you wait for every 2nd or 3rd Dart. There are thousands of houses getting built south of Bray, most new residents work in Dublin - something has to happen.

    It simply won't happen. Even with the increased numbers in Bray, etc. they still wouldn't add up to enough to justify spending billions.

    With DARTs every 10 minutes, you can't have express DARTs as they would just end up running into the back of the next DART. And this is likely to just get worse in future as we are likely to see 5 minute DARTs, etc. eventually.

    Folks who move into these areas need to be realistic. This isn't going to change in our lifetime. If you want to live in a nice seaside town, great, but you are going to have a long commute. Want a short commute, move closer to the city.


  • #198
    AAAAAAAAA
    Registered Users Posts: 255 ✭✭AAAAAAAAA


    bk wrote: »
    You are talking about spending billions for a line that carries just 600 people a day!

    A hundred million, at worst. It's a 2-3km railway tunnel with no frills


  • #199
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,304 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    bk wrote: »
    You are talking about spending billions for a line that carries just 600 people a day!

    Neither a new tunnel or triple tracking will happen in our life times.


    It is interesting to see threads about Greystones and Naas, when there are far bigger public transport issues in larger suburbs much closer to the city centre such as Blanchardstown, Finglas, Coolock, Tallaght etc.


  • #200
    AAAAAAAAA
    Registered Users Posts: 255 ✭✭AAAAAAAAA


    blanch152 wrote: »
    It is interesting to see threads about Greystones and Naas, when there are far bigger public transport issues in larger suburbs much closer to the city centre such as Blanchardstown, Finglas, Coolock, Tallaght etc.

    Go ahead and make those threads, you'll surely have a significant enough audience.

    As it stands, Finglas is to have a metro built through it and the rail to Blanchardstown is being electrified and upgraded to DART service. All four are to have significant improvements through Busconnects. They, and Kildare, aren't being forgotten when compared to the dearth of investment into Wicklow


  • #201
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    AAAAAAAAA wrote: »
    A hundred million, at worst. It's a 2-3km railway tunnel with no frills

    Rafael Flat Numerical was talking about triple or quad tracking the line from Bray into the city center, so that you could have express trains running beside the DARTS, which would cost billions.

    A new tunnel between Bray and Greystones is a separate (though connected) issue.

    Having said that, even about a new tunnel, people need to be realistic. No such project has ever even been mentioned in any Dublin Region development plans and it isn't on the radar in any shape or form.

    There is some plans about extra track length either side of the hill and thus perhaps being able to increase frequency of DART to Greystones by one train an hour. But even that plan seems to be long fingered for now, though I expect it will happen over the next decade.

    Again folks thinking to move to Greystones and beyond need to take this into account. Not much is likely to change over the next few decades.


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