Hyundai Ioniq 38kWh

bk · 05-05-2019 1:07pm #1

So Hyundai have announced that they will be upgrading the Ioniq to have a 38kWh battery. Nice.

They are also upgrading the motor from 118hp to 134hp

Charger increased from 6.6kW to 7.2kW

Slightly redesigned grill, looks nicer IMO and other tech upgrades, app to allow remote control of AC, battery charging, etc.

294km range in WLTP, which obviously would be a bit on the optimistic side.

Sounds great, I'd be very interested. Does any of the existing Ioniq drivers think you could do Dublin to Cork at 120km/h or would it just fall short?

jusmeig · 05-05-2019 1:23pm

bk wrote: »

Does any of the existing Ioniq drivers think you could do Dublin to Cork at 120km/h or would it just fall short?

This refresh should do it. I did Dublin to Kerry last week in my Ioniq. Plan was to make Cashel, only made it to Urlingford!!!

September1 · 05-05-2019 6:03pm

bk wrote: »

Sounds great, I'd be very interested. Does any of the existing Ioniq drivers think you could do Dublin to Cork at 120km/h or would it just fall short?

Nope at this speed, but on nice day and a bit slower should be possible.

Shefwedfan · 05-05-2019 10:03pm

What does the current Ioniq have in terms of range on WLTP

September1 · 05-05-2019 11:04pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What does the current Ioniq have in terms of range on WLTP

204 km which is quite close to realistic range.

TOLLOT · 06-05-2019 12:10am

It won’t make Cork Dublin IMO, I get about 160 in current weather at motorway speed .At motorway speed I’d expect about 220km, so you’ll still have to stop . You’ll be able to stop at ionity going either way though once Junction 14 is built. So no waiting .
Seems like that stop will be slower charging rate with the updated version , though you won’t need to top up by as much .
That chap Bjorn Nyland on YouTube often does long races over 800-900 km. he’ll probably race the 28 vs the 38 kWh .
I’d say the faster charging current Ioniq will give tte new one a run for its money over several hundred km , assuming fast chargers are plentiful.

Mike9832 · 06-05-2019 12:22am

TOLLOT wrote: »

It won’t make Cork Dublin IMO, I get about 160 in current weather at motorway speed .At motorway speed I’d expect about 220km, so you’ll still have to stop . You’ll be able to stop at ionity going either way though once Junction 14 is built. So no waiting .
Seems like that stop will be slower charging rate with the updated version , though you won’t need to top up by as much .
That chap Bjorn Nyland on YouTube often does long races over 800-900 km. he’ll probably race the 28 vs the 38 kWh .
I’d say the faster charging current Ioniq will give tte new one a run for its money over several hundred km , assuming fast chargers are plentiful.

Interesting

Pity they can't/won't shove the 64kWh Kona battery into Ioniq

That's a real 500km motorway range machine with that battery

unkel · 06-05-2019 1:01am

Realistic 120km/h GPS speed range of Ioniq 28kWh is about 185km in perfect circumstances (no rain, no wind, no hills, no cruise control, about 20C ambient temp)

Multiplying this by 38kWh/28kWh gives you 251km, so yes it can do Cork to Dublin

Or in other words, no, not really in real life. Grand though at 110km/h or in bad weather in winter at 100km/h.

Shefwedfan · 06-05-2019 8:35am

Mike9832 wrote: »

Interesting

Pity they can't/won't shove the 64kWh Kona battery into Ioniq

That's a real 500km motorway range machine with that battery

They had no problem selling a 28kWh one so the new one will sell as well

The 64kWh might require a redesign so no point

06-05-2019 6:36pm

Ioniq is limited by physical space for the battery so 2S battery packs only. That's why it won't join the 200 bhp club either. Actually somewhat surprised that Hyundai didn't trump the L40 powerwise either and the charging speed has slowed down also compared to I28 which is another surprise. Just goes to show how good compromise the older model was.

This will be a great upgrade to all current 20-30 kWh class car owners.

Shefwedfan · 06-05-2019 7:01pm

samih wrote: »

Ioniq is limited by physical space for the battery so 2S battery packs only. That's why it won't join the 200 bhp club either. Actually somewhat surprised that Hyundai didn't trump the L40 powerwise either and the charging speed has slowed down also compared to I28 which is another surprise. Just goes to show how good compromise the older model was.

This will be a great upgrade to all current 20-30 kWh class car owners.

Ioniq came out in 2017, this will be out in 2020. Anyone coming off PCP will be given this an option to continue on PCP....

Old diesel · 06-05-2019 8:12pm

I suspect that the charging time will be quicker then claimed in many real world situations.

But it's down as 54 mins to allow for things like coldgate or some mild Rapidgating built into the set up to handle extra heat from bigger battery.

54 minutes is a tad poor otherwise

Edit unless it's like the 35 kwh eGolf and runs a lower voltage battery then normal.

liamog · 06-05-2019 8:20pm

The new model has a 36% bigger battery. For ourselves, I have to decide if it's worth rolling over the PCP into the newer model or spending 8k to buy the current car.

I currently plan to charge at 160km to ensure we don't have any uncomfortable moments, the new model should take us up to 220km. Our most regular long return journey is Dublin - Banbridge which is 140km, or 280km return. The extra range still makes a charge necessary to do the return trip, though it will buy us breathing room for times when the rapid at Banbridge is down.

I'll be placing an order for the Id.3 to replace the e-Up! so will likely use that for longer journeys instead.
The Ioniq is mainly driven by wifey, so I guess it comes down to what Hyundai puts on the table. If they strip the tech out of the car for the Irish market they'll lose the sale. They'll have to do a good offer on the finance to justify selling us a new car versus the relatively low GMFV payment on the current car.

liamog · 06-05-2019 8:20pm

Old diesel wrote: »

I suspect that the charging time will be quicker then claimed in many real world situations.

But it's down as 54 mins to allow for things like coldgate or some mild Rapidgating built into the set up to handle extra heat from bigger battery.

54 minutes is a tad poor otherwise

Edit unless it's like the 35 kwh eGolf and runs a lower voltage battery then normal.

It's a 320V battery versus the 360V in the current model. That's a 5kW difference on our current 125A chargers.

Mike9832 · 06-05-2019 8:22pm

Old diesel wrote: »

I suspect that the charging time will be quicker then claimed in many real world situations.

But it's down as 54 mins to allow for things like coldgate or some mild Rapidgating built into the set up to handle extra heat from bigger battery.

54 minutes is a tad poor otherwise

Seems to be the reality

Around 1c charge rate for both 39kWh and 64kWh Kona, eg Kona bigger battery charges over 50% quicker

30mins to get 100km of range from Ioniq 39kWh is desperately poor alright, pity as seemed perfect besides that

liamog · 06-05-2019 9:27pm

The current model already has a 32A 230V charger, its just 90% efficient to get that 6.6kW figure. Have they figured out how to make a 97.5% efficient onboard charger?

ELM327 · 07-05-2019 11:54am

TOLLOT wrote: »

It won’t make Cork Dublin IMO, I get about 160 in current weather at motorway speed .At motorway speed I’d expect about 220km, so you’ll still have to stop . You’ll be able to stop at ionity going either way though once Junction 14 is built. So no waiting .
Seems like that stop will be slower charging rate with the updated version , though you won’t need to top up by as much .
That chap Bjorn Nyland on YouTube often does long races over 800-900 km. he’ll probably race the 28 vs the 38 kWh .
I’d say the faster charging current Ioniq will give tte new one a run for its money over several hundred km , assuming fast chargers are plentiful.

That would be interesting to see.
The 28kWh charges super fast, and (as I expected) they are using the smaller Kona battery that has lower voltage, the new one will charge slower.
There will be comparisons with the L30 v L40 where the L30 is quicker for longer journeys

The only use case for buying the 38 vs 28 is if your usual range requirement was not met without charging by the 28 but is met by the 38

07-05-2019 12:05pm

ELM327 wrote: »

That would be interesting to see.
The 28kWh charges super fast, and (as I expected) they are using the smaller Kona battery that has lower voltage, the new one will charge slower.
There will be comparisons with the L30 v L40 where the L30 is quicker for longer journeys

The only use case for buying the 38 vs 28 is if your usual range requirement was not met without charging by the 28 but is met by the 38

Maybe Hyundai has also started to use Tesco value batteries in this?

I agree with your analysis. Just goes to show that there are no simple answers to what first appears to be a simple solution to a simple problem where everybody are a winner when you just go and add more battery in the car. Sometimes the owners of smaller battery cars can be the winners, i.e. when there are plentiful of public chargers available to use.

air · 07-05-2019 12:13pm

The batteries are just packed tighter within the same volume so it stands to reason that they will find it more difficult to dissipate heat generated by fast charging than the more loosely spaced cells in the 28kWh variant.

KCross · 07-05-2019 12:21pm

samih wrote: »

I agree with your analysis. Just goes to show that there are no simple answers to what first appears to be a simple solution to a simple problem where everybody are a winner when you just go and add more battery in the car.

+1

With Li-ion there are always compromises between charge rate, heat, degradation, cost of cooling etc.

It is disapointing they were not able to maintain a 60kW average on 100kW chargers like the 28kWh was able to do.... it does seem a big step backwards to only manage an average of ~34kW.... thats Leaf territory. :eek:

Or maybe it is a typo.... first Bjorn test will be interesting.

Old diesel · 07-05-2019 12:33pm

Assuming it's still the same basic cooling (ie like Nissan eNV200 24 and 40) - then we can expect the battery to run hotter in the Ioniq 38 compared to the 28.

Slower charging is possibly a measure to alleviate this - reducing heat built up.

The eNV200 active cooling is dire on the 40 kwh and I'd expect/hope the Hyundai cooling is better.

I still think increased heat build up is on the cards and that the BMS is set up to curtail charge rate.

Yes a lower voltage battery but car should still allow 60 kw and thus faster then 54 mins

Old diesel · 07-05-2019 12:36pm

Apologies - I mention the eNV200 merely because Nissan dont appear to have changed the cooling system in the 40 kwh.

The actual cooling on Ioniq is of course better then eNV200

liamog · 07-05-2019 1:11pm

The new battery likely uses the same 60Ah cells as the Kona 39kWh but with only 88 cell pairs instead of 90.
Should give the battery

88 x 3.63V x 120Ah (2x60Ah cells are in a pair) = 38.3kWh.

Charging performance should be just a little slower (around 0.8kW) than the current Kona 39kWh.
Previous pack had 96 3.75V cell pairs.

KCross · 07-05-2019 1:40pm

liamog wrote: »

Charging performance should be just a little slower (around 0.8kW) than the current Kona 39kWh.

That's pretty shocking though, isnt it, for both 39kWh Kona and Ioniq?

Going by the graph shown in the Kona video it didnt even manage to max out a 50kW charger not to mind a 100kW charger. Its hard to fathom how it can be so far back from what the 28kWh was able to do.

I get the "more dense pack vs more heat" thing but still.... 34kW!... go to 9:33 here...

I wonder, as suggested, is the 39kWh pack from a different supplier because you'd expect even more heat from the 64kWh pack. Or maybe they just scrimped on the cooling on the 39kWh and did a "Nissan" on it and throttled the speed to compensate for lack of cooling.

Old diesel · 07-05-2019 3:46pm

KCross wrote: »

liamog wrote: »

Charging performance should be just a little slower (around 0.8kW) than the current Kona 39kWh.

That's pretty shocking though, isnt it, for both 39kWh Kona and Ioniq?

Going by the graph shown in the Kona video it didnt even manage to max out a 50kW charger not to mind a 100kW charger. Its hard to fathom how it can be so far back from what the 28kWh was able to do.

I get the "more dense pack vs more heat" thing but still.... 34kW!... go to 9:33 here...

I wonder, as suggested, is the 39kWh pack from a different supplier because you'd expect even more heat from the 64kWh pack. Or maybe they just scrimped on the cooling on the 39kWh and did a "Nissan" on it and throttled the speed to compensate for lack of cooling.

64 is liquid cooled.

Recharges less often*.

More cells helps the heat?????.

Where running hotter in the 38 kwh comes into it is where it's still using the same cooling set up as the 28 kwh. I dont know if it is or not.

But if its reliant on exact same cooling as the 28 kwh then the 38 will find it harder to stay cool.

Presumably if the 54 minutes is correct - then Hyundai have decided to aim for more consistent but slower speeds.

So no Leaf 40 style 45 kw at 1st rapid in 40 mins but then you have 1 hr 10 mins charging at 22 kw at next stop (pre software update).

It's a headscratcher.

*this might be factored into the BMS calculations/software.

KCross · 07-05-2019 3:54pm

Old diesel wrote: »

So no Leaf 40 style 45 kw at 1st rapid in 40 mins but then you have 1 hr 10 mins charging at 22 kw at next stop (pre software update).

It's a headscratcher.

Not sure what you meant by above but I agree it is a headscratcher.

Based on that video the 39kWh Kona is actually worse than the Leaf 40kWh and if its the same battery going into the Ioniq 38kWh (reasonable assumption based on the times they've given) then its not good for the network to have another slow charging EV hitting the market.

CCS users might have thought they would be avoiding L40's on the Ionity network but they'll be hitting Ioniq and Kona owners instead. The need for 4-6 chargers per site is going to be critical by the looks of it.

liamog · 07-05-2019 4:01pm

The slow charging on the Kona 39kWh is the opposite problem from the Leaf 40kWh. It was nicknamed #Coldgate, the battery is supposedly not warm enough to allow a sufficient rate of charge.

KCross · 07-05-2019 4:04pm

liamog wrote: »

The slow charging on the Kona 39kWh is the opposite problem from the Leaf 40kWh. It was nicknamed #Coldgate, the battery is supposedly not warm enough to allow a sufficient rate of charge.

Didnt he do a cold and warm test though with similar enough results?
And its from the UK so not exactly Norway cold!

Old diesel · 07-05-2019 4:07pm

KCross wrote: »

Old diesel wrote: »

So no Leaf 40 style 45 kw at 1st rapid in 40 mins but then you have 1 hr 10 mins charging at 22 kw at next stop (pre software update).

It's a headscratcher.

Not sure what you meant by above but I agree it is a headscratcher.

Based on that video the 39kWh Kona is actually worse than the Leaf 40kWh and if its the same battery going into the Ioniq 38kWh (reasonable assumption based on the times they've given) then its not good for the network to have another slow charging EV hitting the market.

CCS users might have thought they would be avoiding L40's on the Ionity network but they'll be hitting Ioniq and Kona owners instead. The need for 4-6 chargers per site is going to be critical by the looks of it.

I made the point clumsily but what I mean is Hyundai engineers may have decided that 54 mins that's reliable is better then having a nice first charge but then it starts going a bit wrong as battery getting too hot.

It's also less bad to have 54 mins charging IF that avoids the turtle mode L40s* have kick in at 56 degrees battery temp (Leafspy).

*On the old software - I havent seen any reports of how the new software responds to hitting 56 degrees battery temp

liamog · 07-05-2019 4:17pm

In his graph you can see the green line is the "#coldgate" test, the red line is the standard charge (but lower rate due to the 327V vs 355V battery pack.
I'd prefer to see a more scientific test with a plot of charge rate vs state of charge.

Not trying to suggest it's good, but it's a little hard to figure out exactly what it is.

KCross · 07-05-2019 4:24pm

A Bjorn test in the Ioniq 38kWh definitely needed.

Indications are not good though.

liamog · 07-05-2019 4:30pm

I would not be surprised to see an Ioniq 28 beating an Ioniq 38 in a 1000km test.

07-05-2019 4:40pm

It's like the L30->L40. You'd be mad to upgrade from the I28 but at the same time you'd be mad to buy a I28 instead of I38 if buying new. Although in case you L40 the car does charge at the same same speed as the L30 for the first charge of the day at least.

Best to wait until the car is actually avaialble before condemning it. The 33 percent or so of extra range using home charging only is very appealing. How often would you drive outside the range is the question and the answer for most drivers, I suspect, is never or hardly ever. 38 kWh would give you more flexibiity for those busy days where you need to squeeze in that last extra errand.

KCross · 07-05-2019 4:53pm

samih wrote: »

How often would you drive outside the range is the question and the answer for most drivers, I suspect, is never or hardly ever. 38 kWh would give you more flexibiity for those busy days where you need to squeeze in that last extra errand.

That is true, of course, but its not how the public will view it.

The expectation for everyone is that the tech gets better, not worse, and they will focus on the individual stats and not just the range. They will see 1hr charge times and say "nah, its not ready for me yet".

You know only too well how rapidgate was received on your L40!

Kramer · 07-05-2019 4:58pm

KCross wrote: »

A Bjorn test in the Ioniq 38kWh definitely needed

Or a Kramer test, or ELM27 test, or Unkel even

.

Agree, new I38 seemed perfect & I actually thought the 54/57 minutes quoted 0-80% times were a typo/mistake.
Looks like they are correct based on the Kona 39 & will be a big negative on the new Ioniq. I also have reservations about the efficiency if they transplant the rest of the transmission; motor, inverter etc.
2016 Ioniq charging almost twice as quickly as a 2020 "upgraded" Ioniq is not good.

Old diesel · 07-05-2019 5:01pm

What's not clear yet is whether the Hyundai 38/39 kwh BMS settings/software is still the same as on EV Puzzles test Kona 39.

We have already seen Nissan update the L40 software (without telling anyone for a good while).

With the Hyundais running active cooling the leeway to adjust/improve software settings should be more.

So I think Samihs point about waiting for the actual cars to come along and see exactly what the deal is - has merit.

Signs not looking the best though.

Is eNiro running same battery in its 39 kwh?????.

That might give an indication of latest software

KCross · 07-05-2019 5:09pm

Old diesel wrote: »

Is eNiro running same battery in its 39 kwh?????.

That might give an indication of latest software

AFAIK Kia use SKI batteries... Hyundai use LG Chem so would not be a like for like comparison.

07-05-2019 5:15pm

KCross wrote: »

That is true, of course, but its not how the public will view it.

The expectation for everyone is that the tech gets better, not worse, and they will focus on the individual stats and not just the range. They will see 1hr charge times and say "nah, its not ready for me yet".

You know only too well how rapidgate was received on your L40!

True, perception if everything. Just saying that in practice 200-300 km of guaranteed range means you hardly ever need to think of charging for most of the drivers as long as you can charge at home at night.

If you are already driving the likes of original LEAF or some other 2X kWh car, Ioniq's 38 kWh will feel like a massive bump where you change your thinking from "where is the next charger" to "forgot how to use a public charger". But it's a totally pointless exercise for the drivers of the current Ioniq unless you currently occasionally struggle on your usual daily routes. In which case this car can also be the answer to your prayers. Just means that those occasional properly long trips might take a bit longer. But even then you have more flexibility than the 28 kWh drivers to recover from dead or occupied chargers.

Hyundai Ioniq 38kWh

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