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Proper use of brakes when stopped

  • 26-01-2019 9:16pm
    #1
    BarraOG
    Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭


    I had one of my last EDT's yesterday and my instructor threw a spanner in the works for me when he said I shouldn't have my foot on the foot brake for more than a few seconds when stopped.

    So, I need to practice this a good bit before my next lesson and should have asked more questions after the lesson but I was so tired after and forgot to.

    So, is the following correct?:

    1) I am stopped at a stop sign with the clutch and foot brake now fully pressed. The road is very busy and I have to wait. So:

    1a) If I am on an incline, I put on the hand brake and take my foot off the foot brake. I then basically use the hill start technique when its clear to go.

    1b) If there is no incline but not clear to go, I take my foot off the foot brake and not use the hand brake. This seems wrong to me as I would be pushed onto the road in front of me if a car crashed into the back of me. So I think in fact that I should use the hand brake anyway. When its clear to go I release the hand brake and go. Correct?

    2) I stop at a stop sign and it is immediately clear to go.

    2a) If I am on an incline, I should apply the hand brake and use the hill start technique. I have not been doing this before now. Before I just used the foot brake and released it when going. Sometimes I might roll back a tiny amount but I didn't think this was wrong. Anyway, I'm now thinking it is wrong to do this and I will fail if I roll back a little during a test. Correct?

    2b) If I am on a flat road, I don't use the hand brake.

    So, am I right with regards to 1a, 1b, 2a, and 2b above?


Comments

  • #2
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    Your instructor needs to clarify what's 'a few seconds'. For normal stops when you're only stopped for the duration of a red light or so you take out the gear - you probably have done so already approaching the stop - of course release the clutch and leave your foot on the brake until you start going again.

    When stopped you'd only use the hand brake if you were stopped for longer than you'd be comfortable to stand on the brakes. Me personally that'd be more than a couple of minutes or so. I guess thats down to personal preference. But using the handbrake for short stops is totally unnecessary, has no benefit and is just too much hassle. It also slows everything down when you need to get going again. You always notice the handbrake people 'cos it takes them forever to get going at the lights.

    Unless I expect to get going again almost immediately, like a stop sign, I'd never leave the gear in and stay on the clutch either.

    When I'm stopped on an incline I'd only do the handbrake trick as I get going. Again standing on the brake until then.

    Me personally I'm driving an automatic so its' all just standing on the brake.

    Edit: Expect this thread to go wild. People do all sorts of things that make sense and plenty of things that don't and of course everyone is convinced their way is the only way.


  • #3
    dbas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 581 ✭✭✭dbas


    Be in control of the car at all times.
    Dope rolled back into my car once going on to the walkinstown roundabout as he didnt have the handbrake on and didnt notice himself rolling backwards. No damage done but he thought i had rear ended him- the dope.

    If you stop the car for any period of time- pop it into neutral- get the handbrake on- release all pedals. keep your eyes on the road and your mirrors. Be ready to move forward a few seconds before you need to.
    Get more lessons- and experience. If you're not getting it explained correctly in a way you understand- find a new instructor


  • #4
    BarraOG
    Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭BarraOG


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    Your instructor needs to clarify what's 'a few seconds'. For normal stops when you're only stopped for the duration of a red light or so you take out the gear - you probably have done so already approaching the stop - of course release the clutch and leave your foot on the brake until you start going again.

    When stopped you'd only use the hand brake if you were stopped for longer than you'd be comfortable to stand on the brakes. Me personally that'd be more than a couple of minutes or so. I guess thats down to personal preference. But using the handbrake for short stops is totally unnecessary, has no benefit and is just too much hassle. It also slows everything down when you need to get going again. You always notice the handbrake people 'cos it takes them forever to get going at the lights.

    Unless I expect to get going again almost immediately, like a stop sign, I'd never leave the gear in and stay on the clutch either.

    When I'm stopped on an incline I'd only do the handbrake trick as I get going. Again standing on the brake until then.

    Me personally I'm driving an automatic so its' all just standing on the brake.

    Edit: Expect this thread to go wild. People do all sorts of things that make sense and plenty of things that don't and of course everyone is convinced their way is the only way.

    He said 5 seconds. Otherwise it wears out the brakes.


  • #5
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    BarraOG wrote: »
    He said 5 seconds. Otherwise it wears out the breaks.

    Thats nonsense. What would be wearing out, the rubber on the pedal? You're at a standstill already, the load on the brakes is minimal as opposed to the actual process of braking a car from speed. Its simple physics. It barely needs more than tipping the pedal to hold her, that alone should tell him what wear there is. Whatever about standing on a steep hill, but most of the time you're on a flat or the slightest of incline and she wouldn't even roll without brakes.
    Thats an incredibly uninformed thing to say for a driving instructor, stupid really.


  • #6
    khaldrogo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭khaldrogo


    Brakes


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  • #7
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,011 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    dbas wrote: »
    - pop it into neutral- get the handbrake on-...
    School boy error there dbas. Always apply the parking brake before selecting neutral.


  • #8
    dbas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 581 ✭✭✭dbas


    Wishbone Ash wrote: »
    School boy error there dbas. Always apply the parking brake before selecting neutral.

    Dead right. Sorry. That is what I do. Foot still on the brake until hand brake on and in neutral. 12 years since my car test. I'm slipping lol


  • #9
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    Wishbone Ash wrote: »
    School boy error there dbas. Always apply the parking brake before selecting neutral.

    Out of curiosity, assuming all the while you're applying the brakes anyway, so what difference does it make?
    When driving manual I usually have the car in neutral for the last few metres before the stop already. Don't really like hanging on the clutch for any length of time.


  • #10
    Dakota Dan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Dakota Dan


    khaldrogo wrote: »
    Brakes

    It brakes my heart every time I see that :D


  • #11
    Alanstrainor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,157 ✭✭✭✭Alanstrainor


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, assuming all the while you're applying the brakes anyway, so what difference does it make?
    When driving manual I usually have the car in neutral for the last few metres before the stop already. Don't really like hanging on the clutch for any length of time.

    It's just about securing the vehicle really, it seems logical to apply the handbrake first before selecting neutral. Perhaps the possibility of feet slipping, or a unexpected collision which could see the car move when in neutral.

    As for your second point, that's just coasting in it's most obvious form. There is no harm depressing your clutch pedal fully when coming to a stop for the few seconds that are required (there should be no great issue depressing it for any amount of time really). Your method is bad practise, and for a non-issue reason.


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  • #12
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,011 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    ....When driving manual I usually have the car in neutral for the last few metres before the stop already....
    That's a classic poor driving habit. Neutral should never be selected when the vehicle is in motion.


  • #13
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    Ye but other than 'school boy error' or 'bad driving habit' nobody can actually tell me whats bad about it.

    You're coming to a set of lights. There may be other cars stopped already, doesn't matter. It's red I know I gonna stop any moment now, just rolling up to my spot. How does being in second (presumably) and foot on the clutch give me any additional control here? I am way past the point of where I might use the engine to brake the car. I will only ever use the brakes to come to a final standstill no matter what. I have to separate the wheels from the engine or I gonna stall the car any moment now. I can do that by taking the gear out or by continuing to hang on the clutch. I don't see the advantage of the latter.

    Not looking for an argument or peddle my way as the right way. Genuinely want to know why people think there is any advantage here.


  • #14
    Marlay
    Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭Marlay


    BarraOG wrote: »
    I had one of my last EDT's yesterday and my instructor threw a spanner in the works for me when he said I shouldn't have my foot on the foot brake for more than a few seconds when stopped.



    If it looks like you are going to be stopped for more than a few seconds you should use the handbrake, would be my reading.

    BarraOG wrote: »
    So, I need to practice this a good bit before my next lesson and should have asked more questions after the lesson but I was so tired after and forgot to.

    So, is the following correct?:

    1) I am stopped at a stop sign with the clutch and foot brake now fully pressed. The road is very busy and I have to wait. So:

    1a) If I am on an incline, I put on the hand brake and take my foot off the foot brake. I then basically use the hill start technique when its clear to go.



    If the road is very busy, then you will stopped for more than a few seconds, so yes, handbrake.


    BarraOG wrote: »
    1b) If there is no incline but not clear to go, I take my foot off the foot brake and not use the hand brake. This seems wrong to me as I would be pushed onto the road in front of me if a car crashed into the back of me. So I think in fact that I should use the hand brake anyway. When its clear to go I release the hand brake and go. Correct?



    You have to have either foot brake or handbrake. If it is not clear to go and it looks like you will need to be stopped for more than a few seconds apply handbrake.

    BarraOG wrote: »
    2) I stop at a stop sign and it is immediately clear to go.

    In this case you won't be stopped for more than a few seconds, so no need for handbrake.


    BarraOG wrote: »
    2a) If I am on an incline, I should apply the hand brake and use the hill start technique. I have not been doing this before now. Before I just used the foot brake and released it when going. Sometimes I might roll back a tiny amount but I didn't think this was wrong. Anyway, I'm now thinking it is wrong to do this and I will fail if I roll back a little during a test. Correct?
    You should not roll back. But again, if you will be stopped for more than a few seconds you should have the handbrake on anyway.
    BarraOG wrote: »
    2b) If I am on a flat road, I don't use the hand brake.
    You do if you will be stopped for more than few seconds.
    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    You always notice the handbrake people 'cos it takes them forever to get going at the lights.
    There is no reason why having a handbrake on would mean you would be any slower moving away. If you leave your foot on the brake for 'a few minutes' the person behind you also has to look at your brake lights for that time.


  • #15
    traco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,665 ✭✭✭traco


    Its a long long time ago but I was told that never in neutral with foot on the brakes only. Either in gear with clutch depressed and foot on the brakes or in neutral with the handbrake on.

    The logic for this is that if you are rear ended in neutral with foot only on the brakes there is a risk you could slip off pedals and the car can roll freely, if its in gear with the clutch pressed, slipping off the pedals will more than likely stall the car restricting rolling. If its in neutral and handbrake on that prevents a roll in the event of a rear end shunt.

    Handbrake on a hill to prevent the risk of roll back or if stopped for a period of time when you would become uncomfortable keeping the clutch depressed and in gear ready to move away. I'd also agree with handbrake then neutral - never the other way around as for reason above but I do know of one EDT driving instructor that teaches it the other way due to the "natural fall of the hand" but there you go. He won't be getting any more of my daughters business.

    Coasting a car in neutral (clutch out and no gear selected) would be a big no no in my opinion. There should be maximum car control available at all times.

    I think it should be mentioned and I am aware this is the learning to drive section, the sole focus should not be just learning to drive to pass the test it should be to learn to be the best driver possible and after passing continue to learn and improve.


  • #16
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    Thanks that with the rear ending is at least some reason. Although a very marginal and little contrived one IMO. If I was rear ended and if then my foot was slipping then I would be stopped a little by the engine brake effect. Not sure its enough to call standing at the lights with the gear out 'bad practice' tbh.

    In any case, since I'm driving auto myself I won't lose sleep over this one.


  • #17
    traco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,665 ✭✭✭traco


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    Thanks that with the rear ending is at least some reason. Although a very marginal and little contrived one IMO. If I was rear ended and if then my foot was slipping then I would be stopped a little by the engine brake effect. Not sure its enough to call standing at the lights with the gear out 'bad practice' tbh.

    In any case, since I'm driving auto myself I won't lose sleep over this one.


    Try it - sit in a manual in first gear and pop the clutch. I think you'll find a jump followed by a stalled engine and sudden stop. There will be no continuous roll.


  • #18
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,180 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    Thats nonsense. What would be wearing out, the rubber on the pedal? You're at a standstill already, the load on the brakes is minimal as opposed to the actual process of braking a car from speed. Its simple physics. It barely needs more than tipping the pedal to hold her, that alone should tell him what wear there is. Whatever about standing on a steep hill, but most of the time you're on a flat or the slightest of incline and she wouldn't even roll without brakes.
    Thats an incredibly uninformed thing to say for a driving instructor, stupid really.

    He's probably thinking about pad-imprinting - "a little learning... " :pac:


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