New calf with broken leg

Dozer1 · 22-02-2018 1:45pm #1

Long story short I had a calf born this morning and the old lad broke its leg with ah old jack he was using.

Anyway vet came and got the calf out and set it in plaster said leave it 6 weeks.

calf is standing from what I can see on the camera,
has anyone had this before and what are the chances he'll be ok or should I cut my losses and put the calf down humanely or will he recover as I don't like seeing any animal suffer.

I'm raging but nothing I can do part time farming
if she was left alone she'd have calved herself...man has no patience

Mooooo · 22-02-2018 2:06pm

If the vet cast it calf should do fine. Had a calf here years ago that had a break as cow stood on her while fussing over her and she went on to milk away fine. If it's below the knee should heal ok. I'm dairy so calf was hand reared but if it's a suckler would it be able to manage around the cow?

Doctors room ghost · 22-02-2018 2:15pm

Some old lads should be put down humanely.know one lad and if a cow p1ssed sideways he’d be in handling her and going for the jack.
Should be fine if the vet did cast.day or 2 they be used to it.keep eye on it though and make sure it doesn’t get too tight as they can lose the crubeen if it loses bloodflow.id handle the crube whenever you look at calf make sure it’s warm and feel cast make sure it’s not too tight.make sure it’s taken off on time as well.vet knows best but keep eye on it

Parishlad · 22-02-2018 2:31pm

Dozer1 wrote: »

Long story short I had a calf born this morning and the old lad broke its leg with ah old jack he was using.

Anyway vet came and got the calf out and set it in plaster said leave it 6 weeks.

calf is standing from what I can see on the camera,
has anyone had this before and what are the chances he'll be ok or should I cut my losses and put the calf down humanely or will he recover as I don't like seeing any animal suffer.

I'm raging but nothing I can do part time farming
if she was left alone she'd have calved herself...man has no patience

Happened here a few ago. As long as an infection does not set in it will be fine. We cut the end of a plastic bottle and used silage tape to fasten it around the base of the cast (around the crubeen) to try and keep in dry and stop it from wearing so much.

The calf was fine in the end. The leg was slightly turned out but never had any difficulty walking.

Base price · 22-02-2018 2:45pm

Parishlad wrote: »

Happened here a few ago. As long as an infection does not set in it will be fine. We cut the end of a plastic bottle and used silage tape to fasten it around the base of the cast (around the crubeen) to try and keep in dry and stop it from wearing so much.

The calf was fine in the end. The leg was slightly turned out but never had any difficulty walking.

Using a plastic bottle is a good idea.

Dozer1 · 22-02-2018 3:09pm

thanks all,
feel a bit more hopeful now, as long as I don't think he's suffering I'll keep him going

first job when I go home is get the grinder to that jack, I've my own techall one that I keep hidden as I wouldn't let him near an animal with it.

great idea on the plastic bottle will do it this evening, its just to keep the cast clean and dry I take it?

Parishlad · 22-02-2018 3:17pm

Dozer1 wrote: »

thanks all,
feel a bit more hopeful now, as long as I don't think he's suffering I'll keep him going

first job when I go home is get the grinder to that jack, I've my own techall one that I keep hidden as I wouldn't let him near an animal with it.

great idea on the plastic bottle will do it this evening, its just to keep the cast clean and dry I take it?

Yep exactly...keeps it clean and dry and stops it wearing so much when he is up and walking around on it.

I can't remember exactly when the cast was removed/changed from our lad but I just remember the vet having a good sniff before he took it off to check for infection. I (stupidly I suppose) asked what would be the story if it was infected and he said he would have to be put down. Anyway, as I said, he came fine in teh end with a bit of TLC.

L1985 · 22-02-2018 7:21pm

I'm raging but nothing I can do part time farming
if she was left alone she'd have calved herself...man has no patience[/quote]

Just want to say I have one of them at home as well-I don't even tell dad if a cow is calving now as he wil be wanting the jack out even though he can't even work it anymore!! Only cow he was alone at home for-calved and he called the neighbour to jack it out. Didn't need it but anyway!!
Btw Don't ever tell your dad that cows can be induced-we did it for one of ours and dad wants it the whole time now!!

patsy_mccabe · 22-02-2018 7:48pm

I got abuse the last time I suggested on here that all farmers should be trained to calve cows. I find with the older guys it's because they lost calves in the past and think it's because they didn't go in sooner. The last time my older neighbour asked me to pull a calf from a heifer, I went away and came back 2 hours later. Even then it was too soon.

greysides · 22-02-2018 8:10pm

A magazine article I read recently had guidelines for when to intervene in a calving:

*if the cow has been 'sick to calve' for more than six hours without the water bag or feet showing.

* if the cow hasn't calved two hours after the feet or second water bag appearing (the 'two feet, two hours' rule). Or, three hours for a heifer.

A calving cow exerts about 75 Kg of force; a man pulling about 50 Kg; a mechanical pull about 200 Kg and a hard mechanical pull about 300 Kg.

A calf's leg breaks at about 270 Kg.

L1985 · 22-02-2018 8:10pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I got abuse the last time I suggested on here that all farmers should be trained to calve cows. I find with the older guys it's because they lost calves in the past and think it's because they didn't go in sooner. The last time my older neighbour asked me to pull a calf from a heifer, I went away and came back 2 hours later. Even then it was too soon.

I would love to get trained on calving cows-im never sure of when to intervene and when the cows in trouble. Dads anwser to everything is to get the jack or call the vet!! I'd like to be a lot more confident but you have no way of being trained as you can only go with what your taught and if that's not great...
So I like your idea anyway-don't mind the other

greysides · 22-02-2018 8:59pm

I'm off the opinion you simply can't win them all. Intervening too early or too late can be hazardous to either or both mother and calf. Basically, set yourself good guidelines and hope to win a lot more than you lose.

Too early and the heifer (usually) or cow isn't open. Forced extraction will rip the mother (uterus, cervix, vagina or vulva) and put the calf under pressure as he's the object used to exert the pressure. Ripped uterus is often fatal, ripped cervix and infertility is a major hazard, ripped vagina/vulva and infection is most likely.

Sympathetic handling will go a long way to getting the situation resolved. Pull the calf gently and then relaxing will allow maternal structures the time to stretch. A calving cow does not hold the force continuously so why should you?

A hand can be used to do some of the stretching thus saving the calf from being the instrument of torture.

Lots of lub and always take the time to clean the cow and be clean yourself as you never know which animal will get torn or need a caesarian. Once you contaminate the calf and fluids some of that will end up in the belly cavity if an operation is needed.

Gloves should be worn to protect the cow from your lack of sterility and you from abortion agents whose presence is not signaled.

A head rope is a vital tool to keep the head coming in-step with the feet. But don't exert a heavy pull on it while the calf is alive!

Sometimes with a heifer calving you have to decide which to favour, mother or offspring. To my mind risking the heifer for the calf is crazy. There is no guarantee a calf will survive all the hazards the heifer already has in order to replace her (leaving financial considerations aside). This choice is less of a feature of a cow calving.

Bear in mind you won't win them all and don't be too hard on yourself. When I started I realised that even the most experienced stockmen get caught out. People with a lot more experience than I had myself. If they get caught out, what hope is there for you?
You should try to learn from your experiences but there's no point beating yourself up over things that go wrong when you did your best at the time.

dohc turbo2 · 22-02-2018 9:09pm

I had one last year , he just wasn't coming right and the cow wasn't helping , anyway I heard the snap so the vet came in the morning said it was 50 50 cause it was a bad break , he was at the farm a few weeks later and noticed the cast was tight on his leg over him growing so put on a new one , it was actually healing well so I was positive , that calf turned out very well , it never held it back so from my experience , give him a chance

grassroot1 · 22-02-2018 9:20pm

The biggest problem is people don't know how to use a jack. Its used as a LEVER.
I wouldn't be too hard on the boss sh1t happens to us all. There will come a day when he won,t be around and trust me thats tougher

Dakota Dan · 22-02-2018 9:23pm

Anyone ever hear of a calf putting its head through the womb? I had a cow with the calfs head turned back, not long calving and the vet said the cows womb was ruptured from the calfs head turned back.

greysides · 22-02-2018 9:32pm

Dakota Dan wrote: »

Anyone ever hear of a calf putting its head through the womb? I had a cow with the calfs head turned back, not long calving and the vet said the cows womb was ruptured from the calfs head turned back.

Rupture wouldn't be from the head back (calf putting its head through) but the cows futile efforts to try to calve weakening the uterus during a protracted first stage. I had one for a client recently. Cervix wasn't fully open but close to it and I still couldn't grip it enough by hand to pull it through without ropes. I was wondering why I was having such a hard time to snare the small head to bring it forward. The head was very free to move and I couldn't push a rope up the head to snare the whole thing as it moved away from me. Eventually I got the head straight and was able to pull out the calf with the cows help- so not a terribly big calf. Checking the cow afterwards she was well ripped just beyond the cervix.
A disgusting discovery after so much effort.

Anyway I reckon she was ruptured by the time I arrived and a long time of straining and getting no where was to blame.

Dakota Dan · 22-02-2018 9:38pm

greysides wrote: »

Rupture wouldn't be from the head back (calf putting its head through) but the cows futile efforts to try to calve weakening the uterus during a protracted first stage. I had one for a client recently. Cervix wasn't fully open but close to it and I still couldn't grip it enough by hand to pull it through without ropes. I was wondering why I was having such a hard time to snare the small head to bring it forward. The head was very free to move and I couldn't push a rope up the head to snare the whole thing as it moved away from me. Eventually I got the head straight and was able to pull out the calf with the cows help- so not a terribly big calf. Checking the cow afterwards she was well ripped just beyond the cervix.
A disgusting discovery after so much effort.

Anyway I reckon she was ruptured by the time I arrived and a long time of straining and getting no where was to blame.

How long did the cow last after?

Zr105 · 22-02-2018 9:39pm

Had one here broke a front leg, got it cast and it came grand after. The guy that cast it put a bandage, then a strip of hard board about the size of a ruler front and back of the leg then plastered over it, told us to take it off in 5 weeks or if it started to look really tight. The idea of the board was it gave a safe place to cut the cast a couple of runs down the centre of each board and it was easy to split off!

Just give it time and try to keep it as clean as possible!

patsy_mccabe · 22-02-2018 9:50pm

This is a video from the calving demonstration at Ennis Mart a while back. Worth a look.

greysides · 22-02-2018 10:24pm

Dakota Dan wrote: »

How long did the cow last after?

Still alive five days in. She was a young cow and hadn't gone into shock after the calving. I was able to get the cleaning out immediately afterwards (another sign of a prolonged calving) and I reckoned it was worth giving her a chance. She's not out of the woods yet and if she needs it she can always be euthanised but she's' eating and walking, though lying a lot.

charolais0153 · 22-02-2018 10:29pm

greysides wrote: »

Still alive five days in. She was a young cow and hadn't gone into shock after the calving. I was able to get the cleaning out immediately afterwards (another sign of a prolonged calving) and I reckoned it was worth giving her a chance. She's not out of the woods yet and if she needs it she can always be euthanised but she's' eating and walking, though lying a lot.

Could you kill her in factory as long as she walked up and recieved no drugs with withdrawals?

greysides · 22-02-2018 10:40pm

charolais0153 wrote: »

Could you kill her in factory as long as she walked up and recieved no drugs with withdrawals?

I'm not sure what they'd make of her. Might end up condemned. In this case it was at the start of a weekend too.

Bleating Lamb · 22-02-2018 10:42pm

I think a big thing which helps as Greysides said is to give the cow a chance every now and again to progress the calving herself for 30 seconds or a minute or two ,if a cow was calving naturally before the day of jacks the majority of cows didn’t spit calves out in minutes.
Some people keep jacking away to get the head out or shoulders or backend with a tough calving and wonder afterwards why the cow can’t rise or the calf is all stressed or hurt when he arrives.A bit of manipulation with a clean hand can do wonders.Admittedly it can be a hard job calving a cow on your own and if at all possible get a neighbour to help.

Aravo · 22-02-2018 10:56pm

Happened here years ago. Brute of a Charolais. Vet put a cast on. Turned out grand. Hardest bit was lifting him up for the first few days. Now if using a jack I try and after first bit out move the ropes to above the knee.

Bellview · 22-02-2018 11:51pm

We had one years back cast on and he worked out super. Funny thing was every now and again you would see him shake his front leg as if cast was still on.

charolais0153 · 22-02-2018 11:56pm

Did the leg break just from a straight pulling action or did he try and lever him before knees were out?
Would calf not just dislocate shoulder if straight pull?

whelan2 · 23-02-2018 10:31am

Bleating Lamb wrote: »

I think a big thing which helps as Greysides said is to give the cow a chance every now and again to progress the calving herself for 30 seconds or a minute or two ,if a cow was calving naturally before the day of jacks the majority of cows didn’t spit calves out in minutes.
Some people keep jacking away to get the head out or shoulders or backend with a tough calving and wonder afterwards why the cow can’t rise or the calf is all stressed or hurt when he arrives.A bit of manipulation with a clean hand can do wonders.Admittedly it can be a hard job calving a cow on your own and if at all possible get a neighbour to help.

Agree, some lads shouldnt be let near a jack, you work with the cow. Calved one during the night, I susppected the calf was dead as there was no reaction when I tickled the calf's nose. Put ropes on and got jack- back is fecked so I let the jack do the work- took about 10 minutes to get the calf out . It was dead. Cow stayed standing the whole time. She has cleaned and all since. Vet ripped a cows womb here a few years ago when she was straightening a calf's leg, massive tear in it, cow had been done with zanil a few days earlier and senior vet said knackery best option :mad:

Dozer1 · 23-02-2018 5:00pm

thanks all for the replies,
Calf is lively drinking well and was well impressed with the way the vet had left him.

Vet said skin wasn't broken and was happy with how he set the bone, it was embarrassing having to ring him for the summary but such is life.

Keeping him in a small pen and letting him to the cow twice a day in the hopes of not causing further damage.
Put on the plastic bottle too.

As for the auld lad....this all happened in a shed that cost me big bucks like us all to have calving pen, open pen right next to the chute and all setup for these situations, I could ring the vet and she would have been properly restrained in seconds in the pen or the chute.

Not by a running knot around her neck and onto the bars of the pen...enough said and time to build a bridge I guess, lets just say at his age he's retired from cows calving.

Angus2018 · 24-02-2018 12:22am

L1985 wrote: »

I would love to get trained on calving cows-im never sure of when to intervene and when the cows in trouble. Dads anwser to everything is to get the jack or call the vet!! I'd like to be a lot more confident but you have no way of being trained as you can only go with what your taught and if that's not great...
So I like your idea anyway-don't mind the other

It all comes with experience and the number one thing I've learned is patience. Every cow is different and you need to give them time to calve. Last week a cow went from no water bag to calf on the ground in 15 mins. Other times no water bag in 2-3 hours which I knew meant a full breach(backwards calf). Other times you know they aren't going to push it out themselves and you need to intervene.

I've had the luck or bad luck of some tough situations. Multiple types of bad presentations, twins, abortions, prolapses, cesarean sections, heifers with calves way to big, cows not pushing or fighting their contractions. Its because of all these complications that I've learned how to recognise these situations, what to do and to keep my cool(as best as I can!).

Its all from hands on experience and taking a big interest when a vet is helping. There is very little information about calving on the internet unfortunately. This forum being one of the best places I've found when googling for solutions. The Journal's video posted earlier is very good and they should release a whole DVD or book.

charolais0153 · 24-02-2018 12:26am

Angus2018 wrote: »

It all comes with experience and the number one thing I've learned is patience. Every cow is different and you need to give them time to calve. Last week a cow went from no water bag to calf on the ground in 15 mins. Other times no water bag in 2-3 hours which I knew meant a full breach(backwards calf). Other times you know they aren't going to push it out themselves and you need to intervene.

I've had the luck or bad luck of some tough situations. Multiple types of bad presentations, twins, abortions, prolapses, cesarean sections, heifers with calves way to big, cows not pushing or fighting their contractions. Its because of all these complications that I've learned how to recognise these situations, what to do and to keep my cool(as best as I can!).

Its all from hands on experience and taking a big interest when a vet is helping. There is very little information about calving on the internet unfortunately. This forum being one of the best places I've found when googling for solutions. The Journal's video posted earlier is very good and they should release a whole DVD or book.

Idk. There are some good videos on youtube.
TIME is the most important thing. Have to wait until fully dilated before doing anything, do everything slowly and dont panic no matter what.

whelan2 · 24-02-2018 11:07am

I remember a lad in ag college saying his dad pulled a calf out of the cow with a tractor!

whelan2 · 24-02-2018 4:21pm

Waiting on vet here. Angus cow calving. When I handled her there's a head and one front leg and 2 back legs. Can't find the other front leg. Twins.

Dozer1 · 24-02-2018 4:39pm

Best of luck Whelan had a 2 calver here this morning old lad was beside himself when i left her for an hour and a half she couldn't manage though, took my time and jacked a big heifer calf out using plenty of the tips from here.

whelan2 · 24-02-2018 7:04pm

whelan2 wrote: »

Waiting on vet here. Angus cow calving. When I handled her there's a head and one front leg and 2 back legs. Can't find the other front leg. Twins.

Twin bulls dead a while

L1985 · 24-02-2018 8:14pm

whelan2 wrote: »

Twin bulls dead a while

Sorry whelan-that's a kick in the gut!!

whelan2 · 24-02-2018 8:17pm

L1985 wrote: »

Sorry whelan-that's a kick in the gut!!

Bummer. She's my dad's cow. He's been away the last few days at a funeral. Had 5 cows calve myself today too. So on top of my head

L1985 · 24-02-2018 9:24pm

whelan2 wrote: »

Bummer. She's my dad's cow. He's been away the last few days at a funeral. Had 5 cows calve myself today too. So on top of my head

We have all been there- sometimes it's the slightest margins that makes the difference either way... harder when it's not your own animal thou.

dohc turbo2 · 25-02-2018 11:18am

whelan2 wrote: »

Twin bulls dead a while

I know how u feel , lost a set earlier off a first calver, vet said she ran out of room , he hates to see twins in a heiffer ,

squinn2912 · 25-02-2018 1:44pm

Twins are a disaster. I got one out, other dead and not fully formed either. The lad I got was a jack job I was worried I went in a bit early but I'm happy now it was time. It helped a bit that he wasn't a big calf. Easy enough steady pull with no problems. I think she stood on him or nipped a leg but he's still not standing right. I moved his leg and it seems to be stiff which is expected but not broken. Gonna get the vet to look at him I'm just not happy with his ability to suck her

greysides · 25-02-2018 2:17pm

L1985 wrote: »

We have all been there- sometimes it's the slightest margins that makes the difference either way...

Sometimes the difference between success and failure is very slight. The right man present. A cow that co-operates. A cow that doesn't strain at just the wrong moment. A proper handling facility. One last 'unnecessary' check.

Gives me a shiver at times.

I 'own' a small herd of cattle spread out around the country. They are the ones I get when I say to the farmer, after getting a good-sized calf out, that I must check for another. His response being that they're won't be another with the size of that one'. My response being that if there is will he give it to me...

Angus2018 · 25-02-2018 2:49pm

dohc turbo2 wrote: »

I know how u feel , lost a set earlier off a first calver, vet said she ran out of room , he hates to see twins in a heiffer ,

Its a very good practice to scan your new heifers every year so you are prepared for twins and know who is and isn't in calf too.

greysides · 25-02-2018 2:51pm

Angus2018 wrote: »

Its a very good practice to scan your new heifers every year so you are prepared for twins and know who is and isn't in calf too.

You see, there's a thing! Many people don't realise how often heifers can have twin calves.

L1985 · 25-02-2018 4:03pm

greysides wrote: »

You see, there's a thing! Many people don't realise how often heifers can have calves.

Hmmm I'm v dubious now as to how reliable scanning is... have had 2guys scanning. 1 said a cow was 5months in calf...she called full term 3days later. The other missed a heifer and missed a twin so.....it's good to have it done but I wouldn't be fully relying on it either.

dohc turbo2 · 25-02-2018 7:14pm

Angus2018 wrote: »

Its a very good practice to scan your new heifers every year so you are prepared for twins and know who is and isn't in calf too.

They were , it wasn't picked up , I scan the lot here so not to carry emptys over winter .

Who2 · 25-02-2018 8:32pm

L1985 wrote: »

Hmmm I'm v dubious now as to how reliable scanning is... have had 2guys scanning. 1 said a cow was 5months in calf...she called full term 3days later. The other missed a heifer and missed a twin so.....it's good to have it done but I wouldn't be fully relying on it either.

Scanners can’t give accurate info after four months in calf and are really only guessing after seven months. Too many lads blame scanners and won’t accept if you want accurate info it needs to be between 1-4 months in calf.

squinn2912 · 25-02-2018 11:18pm

Calf working out ok he's getting up and down himself and the legs are straightening. Vet was happy enough with everything just gave him a couple of shots to ease lungs and get him going. He should be sucking tomorrow I reckon. Edging close to halfway point of calvings thankfully

Dozer1 · 05-04-2018 2:25pm

My calf was flying it for the last few weeks in the plaster.

Vet came yesterday, sedated the calf and cut off the cast with a grinder...smell rose instantly, somehow the skin had broke and all I'll say is it was a mess.. bone hadn't healed either.

Put him down straight away - raging, fine bull calf gone due to stupidity

whelan2 · 05-04-2018 2:36pm

Dozer1 wrote: »

My calf was flying it for the last few weeks in the plaster.

Vet came yesterday, sedated the calf and cut off the cast with a grinder...smell rose instantly, somehow the skin had broke and all I'll say is it was a mess.. bone hadn't healed either.

Put him down straight away - raging, fine bull calf gone due to stupidity

FECK, we cut our one off yesterday, used a vice grips , a stanley knife and long screwdriver. Calf seems well improved here.

Parishlad · 05-04-2018 2:40pm

Dozer1 wrote: »

My calf was flying it for the last few weeks in the plaster.

Vet came yesterday, sedated the calf and cut off the cast with a grinder...smell rose instantly, somehow the skin had broke and all I'll say is it was a mess.. bone hadn't healed either.

Put him down straight away - raging, fine bull calf gone due to stupidity

That's a disaster! After all the extra effort he would have required to get him this far. Hard luck is all I can say!!

Dozer1 · 05-04-2018 4:30pm

Cheers lads, totally sickened, at least all the autumn calvers were incalf so onwards and upwards

squinn2912 · 05-04-2018 4:36pm

Dozer1 wrote: »

Cheers lads, totally sickened, at least all the autumn calvers were incalf so onwards and upwards

Rank luck that. What was the problem leaving it too long?

New calf with broken leg

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