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Judges against new appointments process - great!!

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    #2
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    There have been some real puzzlers in recent years, and some terrible appointments. It should be de-politicised, but it's ridiculous having lay people appointing Judges, as ridiculous as say lay people deciding which Consultant should perform which operation. And bad Judges can have very serious consequences for all. We should want justice administered by those best able to do so, and no one knows the abilities of their colleagues as well as those in the Law Library.


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    #3
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There have been some real puzzlers in recent years, and some terrible appointments. It should be de-politicised, but it's ridiculous having lay people appointing Judges, as ridiculous as say lay people deciding which Consultant should perform which operation. And bad Judges can have very serious consequences for all. We should want justice administered by those best able to do so, and no one knows the abilities of their colleagues as well as those in the Law Library.

    Ted: obviously we should involve the lay community, but keep them at a distance....

    Bishop: how much of a distance??

    Ted: Couple of miles??


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    #4
    ...And Justice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭...And Justice


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/bill-would-have-serious-implications-for-irish-justice-judges-say-1.3133906

    Great to see the judges coming out against this proposed new system for appointing them

    If they are against it, then I'm all for it.

    Veradker is a tyrant, the sooner FF pull the plug on this inflated Donald trump wannabe the better. Yeah I spelled his name wrong, I don't care....


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    #5
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There have been some real puzzlers in recent years, and some terrible appointments. It should be de-politicised, but it's ridiculous having lay people appointing Judges, as ridiculous as say lay people deciding which Consultant should perform which operation. And bad Judges can have very serious consequences for all. We should want justice administered by those best able to do so, and no one knows the abilities of their colleagues as well as those in the Law Library.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubIpoPjBUds


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    #6
    Kristopherus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,907 ✭✭✭✭Kristopherus


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There have been some real puzzlers in recent years, and some terrible appointments. It should be de-politicised, but it's ridiculous having lay people appointing Judges, as ridiculous as say lay people deciding which Consultant should perform which operation. And bad Judges can have very serious consequences for all. We should want justice administered by those best able to do so, and no one knows the abilities of their colleagues as well as those in the Law Library.

    And who serves on juries????..............


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    #7
    McCrack
    Registered Users Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭McCrack


    The unemployed, OAPs, housewifes and cranks


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    #8
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Kristopherus wrote: »
    And who serves on juries????..............

    Anyone that can't come up with a reason not to be there


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    #9
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Kristopherus wrote: »
    And who serves on juries????..............

    Actually criminal trials with juries are the epitome of why good judges are needed, jury direction is a very specialised area with Counsel ready to pounce on any wrong word as grounds for an appeal, Judges have to take meticulous notes of the evidence and have seen great battles between good Judges like Carroll Moran challenging a barristers quote of a witness who may have given evidence weeks before in a lengthy case. There is no way a lay person would have the foggiest idea of who might be well qualified to do that.


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    #10
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There have been some real puzzlers in recent years, and some terrible appointments. It should be de-politicised, but it's ridiculous having lay people appointing Judges, as ridiculous as say lay people deciding which Consultant should perform which operation. And bad Judges can have very serious consequences for all. We should want justice administered by those best able to do so, and no one knows the abilities of their colleagues as well as those in the Law Library.

    There have been numerous instances of poor judgments so perhaps it's time that the old boys club be told that appointments have to be made by people who live in the real world.


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    #11
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    There have been numerous instances of poor judgments so perhaps it's time that the old boys club be told that appointments have to be made by people who live in the real world.

    The Judge who is the target of most threads and criticism here was a former Garda. Is that living in the real world?


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    #12
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    Most members of the public don't tend to have regular contact with the judiciary so they only know about their own personal experiences. Because of their limited contact, they don't tend to have an accurate appreciation of the damage that can be done by even one awful judge.

    If people did, they wouldn't be applauding this decision that will have serious consequences for those members of the public that end up at the mercy of merciless or incompetent judges. Such judges are few but their impact is widespread.

    Bringing in a law where laymen will select judges makes no sense. They will have no way of knowing who is good, bad or dangerous. Some people are compete nutters who shouldn't be allowed in charge of a goldfish, not to mind a courtroom. Now we could make judges of such individuals.

    It is makes no sense to expect that laymen could choose judges competently. Giving them the power to choose judges is a serious error in judgement.

    Reminds me of a joke. When I die I want to go like grandad: peacefully, in my sleep. Not screaming like everyone else in his bus.


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    #13
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    Pat Mustard wrote: »
    Most members of the public don't tend to have regular contact with the judiciary so they only know about their own personal experiences. Because of their limited contact, they don't tend to have an accurate appreciation of the damage that can be done by even one awful judge.

    If people did, they wouldn't be applauding this decision that will have serious consequences for those members of the public that end up at the mercy of merciless or incompetent judges. Such judges are few but their impact is widespread.

    Bringing in a law where laymen will select judges makes no sense. They will have no way of knowing who is good, bad or dangerous. Some people are compete nutters who shouldn't be allowed in charge of a goldfish, not to mind a courtroom. Now we could make judges of such individuals.

    It is makes no sense to expect that laymen could choose judges competently. Giving them the power to choose judges is a serious error in judgement.

    Reminds me of a joke. When I die I want to go like grandad: peacefully, in my sleep. Not screaming like everyone else in his bus.
    laymen basically means non legal people, doesn't it? people from business? education? law research?
    they'll independently assess the applicant judges' credentials and experience
    doesn't mean they are going to be a bunch of lads on the dole sitting around deciding on the judges
    wait, judges might actually have to interview for their job!!!
    Imagine that!!!

    no more 'old boys legal eagles club'.
    "I know him from my Kings Hospital days, as did my dad knew his dad" etc


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    #14
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    they'll independently assess the applicant judges' credentials and experience

    All of the candidates are lawyers.

    How will they assess the experience and competence of one lawyer candidate over another?


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    #15
    Jim Bob Scratcher
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,231 ✭✭✭Jim Bob Scratcher


    I'm not paying a euro to look at that ****e


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    #16
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    laymen basically means non legal people, doesn't it? people from business? education? law research?
    they'll independently assess the applicant judges' credentials and experience
    doesn't mean they are going to be a bunch of lads on the dole sitting around deciding on the judges
    wait, judges might actually have to interview for their job!!!
    Imagine that!!!

    no more 'old boys legal eagles club'.
    "I know him from my Kings Hospital days, as did my dad knew his dad" etc

    No more?

    Have you seen the slew of Judges appointed in recent years to the District and Circuit Courts based, not on some old boys club, but on political affiliations? He was involved in so and so's election campaign, he was the Solicitor for this TD or that? I wish there was an old boys club, instead of some of the shockers on the bench these days, every time I visit a a bar room now they seem to be talking about some latest gaffe in hushed tones. Of course they'll be appealed, clogging up the system even more, ironically resulting in higher fees for lawyers and more expense for litigants, because bad judges are a boon to the profession. But not the individual seeking redress.


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    #17
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    Deleted User wrote: »
    No more?

    Have you seen the slew of Judges appointed in recent years to the District and Circuit Courts based, not on some old boys club, but on political affiliations? He was involved in so and so's election campaign, he was the Solicitor for this TD or that? I wish there was an old boys club, instead of some of the shockers on the bench these days, every time I visit a a bar room now they seem to be talking about some latest gaffe in hushed tones. Of course they'll be appealed, clogging up the system even more, ironically resulting in higher fees for lawyers and more expense for litigants, because bad judges are a boon to the profession. But not the individual seeking redress.

    the whole legal professsion in Ireland is a self regulated closed shop with the Kings Inn, Law Society, Bar Council etc
    they set their own fees!!
    its a cartel

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/legal-profession-waged-four-year-battle-against-reform-bill-1.2532389

    The power of the legal professions is made clear in Government records detailing the force and extent of their four-year lobbying offensive against measures to overhaul the sector.
    Files from the Department of Justice show how the Bar Council, the professional body for barristers, received and rejected draft amendments to legislation before they had been presented to Cabinet.


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    #18
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    the whole legal professsion in Ireland is a self regulated closed shop with the Kings Inn, Law Society, Bar Council etc
    they set their own fees!!
    its a cartel

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/legal-profession-waged-four-year-battle-against-reform-bill-1.2532389

    The power of the legal professions is made clear in Government records detailing the force and extent of their four-year lobbying offensive against measures to overhaul the sector.
    Files from the Department of Justice show how the Bar Council, the professional body for barristers, received and rejected draft amendments to legislation before they had been presented to Cabinet.

    What has that to do with the appointment of Judges?

    It seems like this is a "I hate the legal profession, oh goodie, this annoys Judges" thread.

    Do you think, for example, that the children in a family law case deserve a bad Judge who had no experience whatsoever in family law?


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    #19
    F34
    Registered Users Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭F34


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    What has that to do with the appointment of Judges?

    It seems like this is a "I hate the legal profession, oh goodie, this annoys Judges" thread.

    Do you think, for example, that the children in a family law case deserve a bad Judge who had no experience whatsoever in family law?

    It has everything to do with it, any change to the legal profession or system is met with disdain from the profession. One of our bailout conditions was reform of the legal sector and the fees they charge guess which condition was brushed under the carpet.

    There will be representatives from the legal profession on the panel so there will still be input from the legal profession as to who will be selected.

    I see you have defaulted to won't somebody think of the children rather than address the points made.


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    #20
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    Deleted User wrote: »
    What has that to do with the appointment of Judges?

    It seems like this is a "I hate the legal profession, oh goodie, this annoys Judges" thread.

    Do you think, for example, that the children in a family law case deserve a bad Judge who had no experience whatsoever in family law?

    the children will still be in front of a competent judge
    selected by an almost independent panel
    whats the issue

    I've no problem with judges or the legal profession
    they just shouldn't be appointing themselves


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    #21
    Ballstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 93 ✭✭Ballstein


    Deleted User wrote: »
    What has that to do with the appointment of Judges?

    It seems like this is a "I hate the legal profession, oh goodie, this annoys Judges" thread.

    Do you think, for example, that the children in a family law case deserve a bad Judge who had no experience whatsoever in family law?

    The way your talking it would appear that there has never been an incompetent judge in the country. Once again the Law library is circling the wagons to prevent any modernisation in the profession, doing their best to avoid any scrutiny from the outside. How could a mere engineer or professor possibly sit in judgement of our learned friends and assess their qualifications. It would appear that the act of sitting on a bench for the day making extensive notes is now akin to self levitating such is its complexity. It's a difficult job, requires a good intellect, the ability to process large amounts of information and an ability to remain detached, however, all of these qualities can be measured and a good selection board could be relied upon to make proper appointments. They may make the odd bad one, but no more so than the current system does.


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    #22
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,202 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Ballstein wrote: »
    The way your talking it would appear that there has never been an incompetent judge in the country. Once again the Law library is circling the wagons to prevent any modernisation in the profession, doing their best to avoid any scrutiny from the outside. How could a mere engineer or professor possibly sit in judgement of our learned friends and assess their qualifications. It would appear that the act of sitting on a bench for the day making extensive notes is now akin to self levitating such is its complexity. It's a difficult job, requires a good intellect, the ability to process large amounts of information and an ability to remain detached, however, all of these qualities can be measured and a good selection board could be relied upon to make proper appointments. They may make the odd bad one, but no more so than the current system does.

    If it is so straightforward then please tell us how a lay person can assess a persons legal qualifications? what criteria would they use? It would be like asking me to assess a doctors medical qualifications.


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    #23
    Yourself isit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Yourself isit


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    What has that to do with the appointment of Judges?

    It seems like this is a "I hate the legal profession, oh goodie, this annoys Judges" thread.

    Do you think, for example, that the children in a family law case deserve a bad Judge who had no experience whatsoever in family law?

    Why would this new system cause that? You say the situation is politicised already.


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    #24
    Yourself isit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Yourself isit


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    If it is so straightforward then please tell us how a lay person can assess a persons legal qualifications? what criteria would they use? It would be like asking me to assess a doctors medical qualifications.

    Democracy couldnt run if we believed that lay people couldn't judge professions.


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    #25
    Nabber
    Registered Users Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    I thought sentences in Oreland were lenient? Every time I read a thread about some guy committed a crime and had 30 previous convictions, the most 'thanked' post is the one criticising the judges any their lenient sentences.

    Can any system self regulate itself? I don't think it can.

    I am all for lay people involved. Where I work at the moment, each team developing a product has a minimum of one person on the team wholes sole function is to ask WHY.

    Group think is a powerful thing. Always include a non group member in the process.


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    #26
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,202 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Yourself isit wrote: »
    Democracy couldnt run if we believed that lay people couldn't judge professions.


    how about answering the question i asked?


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    #27
    Ballstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 93 ✭✭Ballstein


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    If it is so straightforward then please tell us how a lay person can assess a persons legal qualifications? what criteria would they use? It would be like asking me to assess a doctors medical qualifications.

    As far as I'm aware, there will be solicitors and barristers on the board, it just has to be a lay person majority. They can assess the qualifications of any candidates and then the whole group can make an appointment. Once again it's deliberate distraction tactics to try and derail change.


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    #28
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,202 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Ballstein wrote: »
    As far as I'm aware, there will be solicitors and barristers on the board, it just has to be a lay person majority. They can assess the qualifications of any candidates and then the whole group can make an appointment. Once again it's deliberate distraction tactics to try and derail change.


    so if it will be the legal people assessing the qualifications of candidates what are the lay people adding to the process?


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    #29
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    the children will still be in front of a competent judge
    selected by an almost independent panel
    whats the issue

    Again:
    Pat Mustard wrote: »
    All of the candidates are lawyers.

    How will they assess the experience and competence of one lawyer candidate over another?


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    #30
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    Pat Mustard wrote: »
    Again:

    So presumably you think that the laypersons on the Policing Authority are unable to adequately assess candidates for senior Garda positions and other Gardaí should select them?


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    #31
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,202 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    CrankyHaus wrote: »
    So presumably you think that the laypersons on the Policing Authority are unable to adequately assess candidates for senior Garda positions and other Gardaí should select them?


    Yeah the last two garda commissioners have done a fantastic job


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