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Mountbatten's Death

  • 25-08-2011 1:32pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 26


    Hi guys.I know this sounds a bit weird but does anyone remember or know where roughly where Mountbattens boat was blown up?i know it was in Mullaghmore,but does anyone know anything more about the location?
    And if anyone has any pictures of Mullaghmore back then I'd love to see them.just because i spend most of my summer up there.

    Thanks :)


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭HellsAngel


    CMod EDIT:

    If anyone has anything USEFUL or RELEVANT to help out the OP, please post.

    Dades


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Not useful but I'd like to see the thread renamed Mountbatten's Murder.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭HellsAngel


    Hi guys.I know this sounds a bit weird but does anyone remember or know where roughly where Mountbattens boat was blown up?i know it was in Mullaghmore,but does anyone know anything more about the location?

    Thanks :)
    Mullaghmore is in a tiny village in Co. Sligo. There is no pub in it but there is a bar in the hotel. Don't know if Mountabtten ever drank in it though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,451 ✭✭✭Delancey


    To my knowledge Mountbatten's boat ( Shadow V ) was 200 - 300 metres from the entrance to the harbour when it was blown up.

    I'm told that after the criminal proceedings the wreckage was destroyed at the request of the British Government ( cannot verify this though ).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Where his boat was exactly seems a peculiar interest. His death seems to have been against the communities spirit in the Mullaghmore area. Most accounts I have seen suggest that the family kept to themselves in the area and were liked by anyone who dealt with them. Here is a small piece from Sligo heritage:
    Little snippets of casual gossip circulated. The Irish Boy Scouts who often camped in the woods on Classiebawn castle grounds flew the Tricolour over their camp:

    “Did ye hear Mountbatten and the wife were driving out the road in their car? Lady Mountbatten saw the tricolour and was complaining that it shouldn’t be flown on their property?”

    “Go on!”

    “Aye, the chauffeur heard her, but Mountbatten said to her, ‘why shouldn’t they fly it, it might be our property, but it’s their country’”

    http://www.sligoheritage.com/archmbatten.htm

    There was a program on this week about the killing and his Garda bodyguard and local boatkeepers were interviewed at length. They were favourable towards him. The Garda description of how he could not believe his eyes as the boat blew up as it went out was very interesting. There were also interviews with the father of a local teenager who was also killed. The boys father is involved in cross border peace initiatives recently. His description of how when his sons body was on the shore that he kept trying to resucitate him even though he new he was dead was quite moving.
    John Maxwell, Paul Maxwell’s father, said he has tried to meet Thomas McMahon, the only man convicted of bombing the boat, since he was released from prison in August 1998 as part of the Good Friday Agreement. He was jailed for life in November 1979.

    “I like to think that there’s no such thing as a completely evil person and that there’s good in everybody,” he said. “If I could see enough in Thomas McMahon if I did meet him it would, in some strange way, make it a bit easier for me. But he doesn’t want to meet me so that will probably never arise.”

    Speaking to The Sunday Times, Maxwell said his “door is still open” to McMahon. “I have tried to meet him on two occasions through intermediaries but you never know — it’s still a possibility,” he said.

    Maxwell said that when his son originally took the summer job on Mountbatten’s boat he had some concerns about his safety. “But Paul was so keen I thought if someone wanted to take Mountbatten they could do it without taking small kids or anybody else with him. I thought the risk didn’t seem all that serious.”

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6797845.ece


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    I worked with a lady, 20 or so years ago, that did a bit of interior decor work for the Mountbattens. She loved them and was devastated when they were killed.

    When the man convicted had the same name as her, she couldn't handle the shame and moved to England, where I met her later.

    Such a pointless killing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I have always thought Mountbatten's killing was senseless and even his title was makey upey and wasn't he really Prince Louis of Battenberg relocated German princeling and uncle to the Duke of Edinburgh.It is not like the British monarchy has any real power.

    I saw the pictures of the teenagers killed with him in the media at the time and they made an impression on me. They were kids and I was a kid when it happened.

    He had been a senior British officer as First Sea Lord and Viceroy of India and he was an old man when he was killed. He had a substantive role in the partition of India.

    In 1974 you also had the murder of Senator Billy Fox , former TD for Monaghan and a protestant by the Provisional IRA. That was highly significant as he was a member of the Oireachtas. The kidnapping of Tiede Herrema a Dutch Businessman was also significant.



    http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/7/newsid_2539000/2539461.stm

    In 1981 Ben Dunne junior was kidnapped by the IRA and in 1984 another supermarket executive Don Tidey kidnapped and 2 young members of the security forces killed in a shootout when the kidnappers hideout was found.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/250000-award-for-garda-in-don-tidey-shootout-48866.html

    It was hard to distinguish those from Jennifer Guinesses kidnapping by a criminal gang led by a career criminal.

    http://www.sbpost.ie/newsfeatures/drug-lords-paying-the-price-49553.html

    Armed bank robberies etc by the Provisionals in the South were also commonplace.Art robberies too, Ireland was not safe.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2001/0626/paintings2.html

    So in that way, Mountbatten knew there was a risk to him and would have been stupid not to. I have often wondered what his connection was to Sligo and how come he has a holiday home there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Here is a pic of the boat

    article-1300980-0AB35B54000005DC-363_468x286.jpg

    Tne surviving twin of Mountbattens twin grandsons has written a book on it From a Clear Blue Sky

    Earl Mountbatten's grandson finally tells his story of survival and loss

    Timothy Knatchbull, who was 14 when an IRA bomb exploded in the boat on which he was travelling with his grandfather Earl Mountbatten, is to tell his story for the first time.



    Tim Walker. Edited by Richard Eden

    10:00PM BST 01 May 2009


    Knatchbull was seriously injured in the 1979 atrocity in Mullaghmore, Co Sligo, in which his twin brother, Nicholas, was killed along with Lord Mountbatten, Baroness Brabourne and Paul Maxwell, a 15-year-old boy who was working as a crew member.

    He has now written a memoir, From a Clear Blue Sky, which will be published on Aug 27, the 30th anniversary of the attack.

    "Tim's motivation for writing it was a personal journey of healing and reconciliation, and also of finding out what happened," says Caroline Gascoigne, the publishing director of Hutchinson, which has bought the rights to the book for an undisclosed sum.

    "Part of the book is an anatomy of an assassination and it's almost like a detective story as he assembles who was doing what and where. It's also a story about twinhood, and about losing someone whom you have barely spent a day apart from in your life."

    She adds: "It's a gripping read from a factual and a psychological point of view, and it's a redemptive book, not a grim one

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mandrake/5259162/Earl-Mountbattens-grandson-finally-tells-his-story-of-survival-and-loss.html

    Here is a more detailed summary of events in a book review and as it was on a boat locations will never be that precise.

    'On the morning of Monday, August 27, 1979, Paul Maxwell asked me the time. He laughed when I told him it was eleven thirty-nine and forty seconds.'

    Thus begins Timothy Knatchbull’s painstakingly researched, personal and often moving account of an event which made headlines around the world.

    Less than ten minutes later, at 11.46, Shadow V, the pleasure boat carrying Earl Mountbatten, twins Timothy and Nicolas Knatchbull, their parents John and Patricia Brabourne, their grandmother the Dowager Lady Brabourne and Paul Maxwell, the boat boy from Enniskillen, was blown to smithereens just off Mullaghmore Head by a bomb planted by the IRA.

    Timothy’s grandfather, Earl Mountbatten died instantly, as did Timothy’s identical twin brother Nicolas (aged 14) and Paul Maxwell (aged 15). The Dowager Lady Brabourne died of her injuries the following day.

    FromAClearBlue150x.jpgAt the same time, Francis McGirl, driver of a red Ford Escort had been flagged down at a checkpoint in Granard, County Offaly. He and his passenger, Thomas McMahon, were held in the local police station. When questioned by Garda James Lohan, McGirl became nervous and gave the false name Patrick Rehill.

    Knatchbull has pieced together, in meticulous detail, the Shadow V rescue operation in Mullaghmore. Brian Best and Richard Wallace, doctors from Northern Ireland, oversaw the operation and organised transportation for the survivors and the dead back to Mullaghmore harbour and on to Sligo General hospital.

    Lord Mountbatten’s body was taken to shore on Edward Dawson’s fourteen-foot rubber Zodiac. Charlie Pearce’s dinghy relayed Timothy Knatchbull’s seriously injured parents and grandmother. Knatchbull himself was aboard Dick and Elizabeth Wood-Martin’s boat which, with its engine spluttering, made slow progress back to harbour.

    Paul Maxwell’s body arrived on Gus Mulligan’s boat, where it was discovered by Paul’s distraught father, John Maxwell. Patricia Brabourne’s dog Twiga also perished and was recovered. But at this point in the book there is no mention of what became of Knatchbull’s twin brother Nicolas, still missing.

    At Sligo general hospital Dr Tony Heenan led a small team of doctors and nurses, handling the emergency efficiently and sympathetically. When they were well enough, Timothy and Patricia Brabourne were told that Nicolas had died. Patricia later described it as 'the worst moment of my life'. She decided she did not have the strength even to think about it and that she would deal with it once she had a bit more life in her.

    A family friend, Sylvia Crathorne, who came to Classiebawn to support the wounded while family members attended the funeral of Lord Mountbatten, Lady Brabourne and Nicholas Knatchbull in England wrote to her sister:

    'I can’t tell you how devastating, how moving, how heartrending this nightmare is. It’s impossible really to describe what a bomb victim looks like – not so as to let the other person feel the full sickening horror.'

    Dr Heenan went beyond the call of duty to comfort Norton Knatchbull, the Brabourne’s eldest son who had arrived from England to be with his brothers and sisters. He grabbed a bottle of whiskey and took Norton into one of the drawing rooms at Classiebawn castle, emerging later to warn that 'there should be no more stiff upper lips here'.

    As well as detailed accounts of the trial of McMahon and McGirl, the author analyses the inadequate security surrounding Mountbatten and his family. He assesses the IRA’s motives in targeting Mountbatten and describes the complex nature of support for the Republican movement among the population of Ireland in 1979, quoting both Gerry Adams and John Hume.

    http://www.culturenorthernireland.org/article/2775/book-review-from-a-clear-blue-sky


    So for a factual account from one of the victims that would be what to read, though, I imagine the Queen will pop up every so often.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    HellsAngel wrote: »
    Since you mentioned Mountbatten's cousin the Queen, does anyone know if his death had anything to do with his cousin giving the commanding officer of the para's on Bloody Sunday Derry an OBE

    Those awards are chosen by politicians. and more than likely the Cabinet of Jim Callaghan who was suceeded by Margaret Thatcher in May of 1979.

    Hardly a reason to kill two 14 year old boys who were as much of a target.

    As the Maxwell boys father said
    Maxwell said that when his son originally took the summer job on Mountbatten’s boat he had some concerns about his safety. “But Paul was so keen I thought if someone wanted to take Mountbatten they could do it without taking small kids or anybody else with him. I thought the risk didn’t seem all that serious.”

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6797845.ece

    Thats Dad talk and as a Dad it resounds with me


    Though I can see how it might have caused Warrenpoint
    and the Provos killing 19 Para's in Warrenpoint also that day ?

    And Warrenpoint isn't in the OP.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭HellsAngel


    CDfm wrote: »
    Those awards are chosen by politicians. and more than likely the Cabinet of Jim Callaghan who was suceeded by Margaret Thatcher in May of 1979.

    Hardly a reason to kill two 14 year old boys who were as much of a target.

    As the Maxwell boys father said



    Thats Dad talk and as a Dad it resounds with me


    Though I can see how it might have caused Warrenpoint



    And Warrenpoint isn't in the OP.
    Agreed, the murder of the two young boys was unacceptable, no excuses of "collatoral damage" etc are good enough. It was triggered by a line of sight device, a remote control for a toy plane by a guy from Monaghan called Tommy McMahon.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Forgive my obvious statement but the OP asked for the location of the boat when it blew up, not opinions and random other events of the last 30 odd years!

    It was just outside the mouth of the harbour OP, from what the documentaries say.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Forgive my obvious statement but the OP asked for the location of the boat when it blew up, not opinions and random other events of the last 30 odd years!

    It was just outside the mouth of the harbour OP, from what the documentaries say.


    The OP query is in relation to the death of Mountbatten. This forum is for the discussion of history, not just clarifying exact details. Discussion of the event in historical terms as has taken place in the forum is entirely valid. If you wish to engage in this discussion then you are welcome to do so. If you think the discussion should be restricted to one point only then this will not be the case.

    Moderator.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭HellsAngel


    CDfm wrote: »
    He had been a senior British officer as First Sea Lord and Viceroy of India and he was an old man when he was killed. He had a substantive role in the partition of India.
    I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about the partition of India, but many in India took schadenfreude* at his death as they blamed him as one of the leading figures in the British engineering of the partition of the country and the subsequent deaths of at least a million people and vastly more refugees.

    * enjoying someone’s misfortune


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    HellsAngel wrote: »
    Agreed, the murder of the two young boys was unacceptable, no excuses of "collatoral damage" etc are good enough. It was triggered by a line of sight device, a remote control for a toy plane by a guy from Monaghan called Tommy McMahon.

    +1

    It was a bit more than 1 guy.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/mountbatten-murder-suspects-on-leaked-list-475940.html


    And I did know veterans of the War of Independence who were not impressed and it did have an impact on the political scene -though that is almost current affairs.

    It should not overshadow the boys deaths.



    EDIT - An Indian thread might make good reading


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭HellsAngel


    CDfm wrote: »
    +1

    It was a bit more than 1 guy.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/mountbatten-murder-suspects-on-leaked-list-475940.html

    EDIT - An Indian thread might make good reading

    And I did know veterans of the War of Independence who were not impressed and it did have an impact on the political scene -though that is almost current affairs.

    It should not overshadow the boys deaths.
    Maybe you knew veterans of the War of Independence but according to leading authority Tim Pat Coogan in his book The IRA, it stirred the biggest demands privately among some senior British army and civil servants for British withdrawal from the six counties since Harold Wilson was PM around 1974. As an IRA man described it, a Hiroshima operation at the British establishment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    HellsAngel wrote: »
    I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about the partition of India, but many in India took schadenfreude* at his death as they blamed him as one of the leading figures in the British engineering of the partition of the country and the subsequent deaths of at least a million people and vastly more refugees.

    * enjoying someone’s misfortune

    And you know this how?

    In India and Pakistan, Mountbatten's role in the partition of India is hardly talked about.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭HellsAngel


    And you know this how?

    In India and Pakistan, Mountbatten's role in the partition of India is hardly talked about.
    As the British appointed mouthpiece or Viceroy or whatever you prefer, he is seen as one of the main protagantists of the partition of India.

    " Mountbatten concluded that a united India was an unachievable goal and he resigned himself to accept a plan that called for the partitioning of an independent India and Pakistan. " Scroll down to Last Viceroy: http://www.mangaloreanrecipes.com/recipes/mangaloregoa/146-evolution-of-indian-subcontinent/2181-india-after-the-1857-revolt.html

    The majority of the natives had a different view but that didn't count of course.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Not wanting to dis TPC and his job as a writer is to sell books.

    It does not justify the killing of children.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,451 ✭✭✭Delancey


    CDfm wrote: »
    I have often wondered what his connection was to Sligo and how come he has a holiday home there.

    Classiebawn Castle in Mullaghmore had long been in the family of his late wife who had holidayed there since she was a child.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    read the book after a trip to Sligo. Thought it was very bitter towards Ireland and Irish people at the end.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    read the book after a trip to Sligo. Thought it was very bitter towards Ireland and Irish people at the end.

    I haven't read the book but it is hardly surprising and totally understandable that he feels that way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭indioblack


    HellsAngel wrote: »
    I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about the partition of India, but many in India took schadenfreude* at his death as they blamed him as one of the leading figures in the British engineering of the partition of the country and the subsequent deaths of at least a million people and vastly more refugees.

    * enjoying someone’s misfortune
    That is an interesting viewpoint - is there anything more regarding Indian public opinion with regard to Mountbattens death?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,451 ✭✭✭Delancey


    indioblack wrote: »
    That is an interesting viewpoint - is there anything more regarding Indian public opinion with regard to Mountbattens death?

    I recall at the time that India declared a week of mourning . Having said that I am unsure if such tributes are not the norm for India ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭end a eknny


    CDfm wrote: »
    I haven't read the book but it is hardly surprising and totally understandable that he feels that way.
    well i think the irish as a rule have an understandable bitternes towards the british given are history


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    CDfm wrote: »
    I haven't read the book but it is hardly surprising and totally understandable that he feels that way.
    Yes, to an extent and of course to the killers, but not all Irish people surely?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    well i think the irish as a rule have an understandable bitternes towards the british given are history

    His grandparents, twin and friend were killed by a bomb on sunny day and that was a lot for a 14 year old to carry.

    So this is not political issue , it is a personal bereavement.

    John Maxwell , father of Paul, the 15 year old deckhand has a tolerance and forgiveness that I do not have.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭end a eknny


    CDfm wrote: »
    His grandparents, twin and friend were killed by a bomb on sunny day and that was a lot for a 14 year old to carry.

    So this is not political issue , it is a personal bereavement.

    John Maxwell , father of Paul, the 15 year old deckhand has a tolerance and forgiveness that I do not have.
    most irish people have a tolerance for forgiveness that i dont or at the very least a bad memory


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Yes, to an extent and of course to the killers, but not all Irish people surely?

    He was 14 years old and going thru puberty etc. I am not a psychiatrist but I imagine what he feels is based on what he felt then. He will also have a view on Irish justice from the subsequent trial.

    How is he expected to feel.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    MOD -EDIT.

    Comment deleted.
    I have a sense of humour but now is not the time and this thread is not the place.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Ruairí O'Brodagh stated in the interview he gave in the documentary that Montbatten should have voiced his grá and respect for Ireland. Apparently there was calls for Montbatten's assassination while O'Brodagh was Chief of staff of the IRA but O'Brodagh declined due to the fact it would be on the soil of the 26 counties.

    Though I do not condone the loss of any innocent life I have to say that I think that the Montbattens were nigh on insane to holiday in a area so close to what was internationally recognised as an active war zone of which he was from the opposing country. ,


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭indioblack


    Delancey wrote: »
    I recall at the time that India declared a week of mourning . Having said that I am unsure if such tributes are not the norm for India ?
    I think it unlikely - in a country the size of India there could well be diverse opinions about Mountbatten, the British and, in the whole sub-continent, partition and the way it was carried out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    HellsAngel wrote: »
    As the British appointed mouthpiece or Viceroy or whatever you prefer, he is seen as one of the main protagantists of the partition of India.

    " Mountbatten concluded that a united India was an unachievable goal and he resigned himself to accept a plan that called for the partitioning of an independent India and Pakistan. " Scroll down to Last Viceroy: http://www.mangaloreanrecipes.com/recipes/mangaloregoa/146-evolution-of-indian-subcontinent/2181-india-after-the-1857-revolt.html

    The majority of the natives had a different view but that didn't count of course.

    That link highlights nicely the issues raised in the discussion thread. You have taken one small paragraph, used it to back up your own point and added your own conjecture.

    Mountbatten chaired the meetings where partition was agreed but there were other parties that played a much bigger role, Mohammad Ali Jinnah for example.

    from what I can gather from reading up on the subject and subsequent discussions with quite a few knowledgeable Indians, Mountbatten's role in the partitions largely ignored compared to that of Jinnah and Nehru.

    the only time Mountbatten seems to get the blame for partition is when someone is trying to justify the cold blooded murder of two old people and a couple of kids.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    the only time Mountbatten seems to get the blame for partition is when someone is trying to justify the cold blooded murder of two old people and a couple of kids.

    I place blame on him for the partition, but I do not justify the killing any innocent person!

    Montbatten will always be remembered for how he died, not for what he "achieved" in his lifetime. Many people who were killed during the Troubles will not be remembered for what they did in life, only the horrible deaths they had!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    He does get held responsible for partition but his job was to get the British out of India by 1948 and avoid civil war. Gandhi, Nehru, Jinnah etc were noted politicians and there are religious and caste issues in India and they could not reach an agreement with the Muslims either. There was the added complication that Nehru appears to have been "banging Mountbatten's missus". He had also the task of protecting Britains trade interests. It was his decision to recommend partition but ultimately such a decision rested with the British Government and the Indian politicians.

    http://www.hindu.com/2008/11/14/stories/2008111456461100.htm

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6884697.ece

    And yes, I am with wolfpawnat here, the issue has nothing to do with the assassination of the Mountbatten family.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭HellsAngel


    Delancey wrote: »
    I recall at the time that India declared a week of mourning . Having said that I am unsure if such tributes are not the norm for India ?
    The Indian govt probably did, that's the face govt's show for the expediency of buisness and commerce etc. However what Joe Bloggs on the street thinks can sometimes be quite different.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭HellsAngel


    That link highlights nicely the issues raised in the discussion thread. You have taken one small paragraph, used it to back up your own point and added your own conjecture.
    He asks me on post #17 regarding Mountbatten's role in the Partition of India "And you know this how? " and then criticises me when I provide the link !!!!!! i guess their just ain't pleaseing some people :D
    Mountbatten chaired the meetings where partition was agreed but there were other parties that played a much bigger role, Mohammad Ali Jinnah for example.

    from what I can gather from reading up on the subject and subsequent discussions with quite a few knowledgeable Indians, Mountbatten's role in the partitions largely ignored compared to that of Jinnah and Nehru.

    the only time Mountbatten seems to get the blame for partition is when someone is trying to justify the cold blooded murder of two old people and a couple of kids.
    Yeah sure, he was just like a secetary taking down notes and no invovlement :rolleyes: He had as little to do with the partition of India as Llyod George and Churchill had to do with the partitioning of Ireland :rolleyes:

    " Mountbatten concluded that a united India was an unachievable goal and he resigned himself to accept a plan that called for the partitioning of an independent India and Pakistan. " Scroll down to Last Viceroy: http://www.mangaloreanrecipes.com/re...57-revolt.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    HellsAngel wrote: »
    He asks me on post #17 regarding Mountbatten's role in the Partition of India "And you know this how? " and then criticises me when I provide the link !!!!!! i guess their just ain't pleaseing some people :D


    Yeah sure, he was just like a secetary taking down notes and no invovlement :rolleyes: He had as little to do with the partition of India as Llyod George and Churchill had to do with the partitioning of Ireland :rolleyes:

    " Mountbatten concluded that a united India was an unachievable goal and he resigned himself to accept a plan that called for the partitioning of an independent India and Pakistan. " Scroll down to Last Viceroy: http://www.mangaloreanrecipes.com/re...57-revolt.html

    He concluded that a united India was an achievable goal, because the main parties would not agree. How ****ing difficult is that to understand?

    And next time find a decent link, not one that claims the UK wanted a divided so it could have a puppet state (pakistan ffs,) in the sub continent.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    He concluded that a united India was an achievable goal, because the main parties would not agree. How ****ing difficult is that to understand?

    You seem to know a lot more about India than us and haven't posted any links -but - on the ." ****ing " issue as you have raised it.

    As recent as 2009 the Indian government wouldn't allow a movie about Edwina Mountbatten and Nehru's affair so we can see facts but cannot see how significant they were.

    It is a very sensitive subject.

    From The Times

    October 22, 2009

    Film about Nehru and Edwina Mountbatten stalls after India decries love scenes

    Chris Ayres in Los Angeles and Jeremy Page in Delhi

    A controversial film about the “intimate” relationship between Lord Mountbatten’s wife and India’s first prime minister has been put on hold by a Hollywood studio after the Indian Government demanded that the love scenes should be deleted.
    The film — an adaptation of the Alex von Tunzelmann book Indian Summer — was to star Hugh Grant as the last Viceroy to India and Cate Blanchett as Edwina, his allegedly unfaithful wife.
    Lady Mountbatten was an “It girl” of the 1920s — one biographer said that she had “embarked on two decades of frivolity” after her marriage to Lord Mountbatten in 1922 — and is believed to have had an affair with Jawaharlal Nehru, who led India from its independence in 1947 until his death from a heart attack in 1964.


    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6884697.ece

    One might reasonably speculate that after 1936's abdication crisis the King, Mountbatten's cousin and entre into the establishment may have been concerned and wanted the Mountbattens out of there.

    What was the deal, Mountbatten may very well have been bothered to the point that he was not able to conclude negotiations on a united India.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article2115350.ece


    And next time find a decent link, not one that claims the UK wanted a divided so it could have a puppet state (pakistan ffs,) in the sub continent.

    Britain was still a superpower and an Empire and, as this preceeded the Suez Crisis by some 8 years , it is a reasonable point that Britain would have considered militarily backing a friendly regime.

    It does seem a reasonable point and Mountbatten was a military man.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    CDfm wrote: »
    You seem to know a lot more about India than us and haven't posted any links -but - on the ." ****ing " issue as you have raised it.

    As recent as 2009 the Indian government wouldn't allow a movie about Edwina Mountbatten and Nehru's affair so we can see facts but cannot see how significant they were.

    It is a very sensitive subject.



    One might reasonably speculate that after 1936's abdication crisis the King, Mountbatten's cousin and entre into the establishment may have been concerned and wanted the Mountbattens out of there.

    What was the deal, Mountbatten may very well have been bothered to the point that he was not able to conclude negotiations on a united India.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article2115350.ece





    Britain was still a superpower and an Empire and, as this preceeded the Suez Crisis by some 8 years , it is a reasonable point that Britain would have considered militarily backing a friendly regime.

    It does seem a reasonable point and Mountbatten was a military man.

    India is a fascinating country with fascinating cultures and history.

    Indian independence only happened 60 years ago, there are a million and one books, articles and sites dedicated to the subject.

    The only pitfalls are those that have been written with an agenda, but those are usually easy to spot as they will ultimately end up having a rant about Muslims/Hindus/Sikhs.

    You overlook two main things regarding Britain in 1948. Firstly it was exhausted from 6 years of total war and wanted all its troops home. Secondly, the Attlee government was a Labour government and wanted to resolve the "Indian Problem" as quickly as possible (Clement Attlee could arguably be accused of being responsible for the partition of India long before Mountbatten). Attlee's main push was for nationalisation of Britain's industry and the creation of the NHS.

    As far as Mountbatten is concerned, Nehru sleeping with his wife could well have been a contributing factor to bringing forward independence, but the escalating civil war in India is the generally accepted reason.

    http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/india_1900_to_1947.htm


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    India is a fascinating country with fascinating cultures and history.

    Indian independence only happened 60 years ago, there are a million and one books, articles and sites dedicated to the subject.

    The only pitfalls are those that have been written with an agenda, but those are usually easy to spot as they will ultimately end up having a rant about Muslims/Hindus/Sikhs.

    You overlook two main things regarding Britain in 1948. Firstly it was exhausted from 6 years of total war and wanted all its troops home. Secondly, the Attlee government was a Labour government and wanted to resolve the "Indian Problem" as quickly as possible (Clement Attlee could arguably be accused of being responsible for the partition of India long before Mountbatten). Attlee's main push was for nationalisation of Britain's industry and the creation of the NHS.

    As far as Mountbatten is concerned, Nehru sleeping with his wife could well have been a contributing factor to bringing forward independence, but the escalating civil war in India is the generally accepted reason.

    http://wwwmhistorylearningsite.co.uk/india_1900_to_1947.htm

    Mountbatten could not have stopped the civil war but was still representing Britains interests.

    I think it is wrong to attribute anything like a key decision making role to Mountbatten.He had nothing like the influence of Nehru, Jinnah or Gandhi.Gandhi is remembered more like a prophet than a politician and his sleeping arrangements caused a bit of controvercy too and I cant imagine they impressed the Muslims.

    At a personal level, Nehru's relationship with his wife hurt him and there does seem to be a bit of denial going around about it.

    I can't imagine it (the affair) was insignificant to Mountbatten and was probably the elephant in the room in all negotiations. It cant have not influenced the situation as it was so massive.

    Partition was the easy option and it got in the way of taking the more difficult route.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    CDfm wrote: »
    Mountbatten could not have stopped the civil war but was still representing Britains interests.

    I think it is wrong to attribute anything like a key decision making role to Mountbatten.He had nothing like the influence of Nehru, Jinnah or Gandhi.Gandhi is remembered more like a prophet than a politician and his sleeping arrangements caused a bit of controvercy too and I cant imagine they impressed the Muslims.

    At a personal level, Nehru's relationship with his wife hurt him and there does seem to be a bit of denial going around about it.

    I can't imagine it (the affair) was insignificant to Mountbatten and was probably the elephant in the room in all negotiations. It cant have not influenced the situation as it was so massive.

    Partition was the easy option and it got in the way of taking the more difficult route.

    Jinna's day of action had already resulted in the deaths of over 5000 people, so that would have been weighing heavily on the minds of all those in the room.

    It is worth noting as well that Gandhi was murdered because of his "Liberal" views regarding Muslims.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    On the local history in Mullaghmore

    Here is a link to the Estate on the Landed Estates database

    http://www.landedestates.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=247

    Here is a picture of the Castle built in 1874 for Lord Palmerstown - Mountbatten had married into money.

    539.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭HellsAngel


    He concluded that a united India was an achievable goal, because the main parties would not agree. How ****ing difficult is that to understand?

    And next time find a decent link, not one that claims the UK wanted a divided so it could have a puppet state (pakistan ffs,) in the sub continent.
    It's not too ****ing difficult is that to understand unless who happen to be a typical jingoistic Brit who clings onto Britain the well intentioned, benevolent 'peacemaker' :rolleyes:
    CDfm wrote: »
    You seem to know a lot more about India than us and haven't posted any links -but - on the ." ****ing " issue as you have raised it.
    Yes indeed CDfm.
    it is a reasonable point that Britain would have considered militarily backing a friendly regime.

    It does seem a reasonable point and Mountbatten was a military man.
    Yes, colonial powers don't do benevolence to the natives. Jinnah was but a puppet for the British, an oppurtunist puppet who willingly played the role of a political agent provocateur in Britian's attempts to stall Indian independence by divide and rule.


    Agent provocateur - is a person employed by the police or other entity to act undercover to entice others to act rashly often against their own interests.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭HellsAngel


    Here's what the Louth TD Gerry Adams had to say regarding Mountbatten's death - " The IRA gave clear reasons for the execution. I think it is unfortunate that anyone has to be killed, but the furore created by Mountbatten's death showed up the hypocritical attitude of the media establishment. As a member of the House of Lords, Mountbatten was an emotional figure in both British and Irish politics. What the IRA did to him is what Mountbatten had been doing all his life to other people "


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    HellsAngel wrote: »
    Here's what the Louth TD Gerry Adams had to say regarding Mountbatten's death - " The IRA gave clear reasons for the execution. I think it is unfortunate that anyone has to be killed, but the furore created by Mountbatten's death showed up the hypocritical attitude of the media establishment. As a member of the House of Lords, Mountbatten was an emotional figure in both British and Irish politics. What the IRA did to him is what Mountbatten had been doing all his life to other people "

    Hopefully we will soon be able to say the same about Gerry.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    HellsAngel wrote: »
    It's not too ****ing difficult is that to understand unless who happen to be a typical jingoistic Brit who clings onto Britain the well intentioned, benevolent 'peacemaker' :rolleyes:

    Yes indeed CDfm.

    Yes, colonial powers don't do benevolence to the natives. Jinnah was but a puppet for the British, an oppurtunist puppet who willingly played the role of a political agent provocateur in Britian's attempts to stall Indian independence by divide and rule.


    Agent provocateur - is a person employed by the police or other entity to act undercover to entice others to act rashly often against their own interests.

    You should really read the link I posted. Then google Indian Partition, there is plenty there to read.

    If anything, Britain rushed the independence of India, not stalled it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭HellsAngel


    You should really read the link I posted. Then google Indian Partition, there is plenty there to read.

    If anything, Britain rushed the independence of India, not stalled it.
    In 1937 provincial elections the Congress won a clear majority winning 716 out of 1161 caputuring a clear majority in six out of the 11 provinces. Jinnah's Muslim league failed to win a single province. But still the Brits maintained Jinnah and his organisation as a deciding entity in India's future. - Obviously, like Ireland, the people of India did not know what was best for them, Mountbatten and the gang did :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    http://www.indianetzone.com/35/provincial_elections_1936-1937_british_india.htm


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    Leonard Woolf, the English political theorist, wrote an interesting summing up in 1967 of British intransigence and procrastination as regards Indian independence:

    I have no doubt that if the British Governments had been prepared to grant in 1900 what they refused to grant in 1900 but granted in 1920; or to grant in 1920 what they refused in 1920 but granted in 1940; or to grant in 1940 what they refused in 1940 but granted in 1947 - then nine-tenths of the misery , hated, and violence, the imprisonings and terrorism, the murders, floggings, shootings, assassinations, even the racial massacres would have been avoided; the transference of power might well have been accomplished peacefully, even possibly without Partition.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,113 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    MarchDub wrote: »
    Leonard Woolf, the English political theorist, wrote an interesting summing up in 1967 of British intransigence and procrastination as regards Indian independence:

    I think that it was all down to lack of experience in handing things back in general.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    MarchDub wrote: »
    Leonard Woolf, the English political theorist, wrote an interesting summing up in 1967 of British intransigence and procrastination as regards Indian independence:

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing.


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