Tenant alleging discrimination as evicting

Justme82 · 12-08-2018 8:56pm #1

I gave notice to my tenants to leave my property, as my brother is moving in, last week. My brothers circumstances have changed so I’m getting a lot of pressure from my parents to let him move in. I got a text from my tenants saying that I gave the wrong number of days notice (I did, I got confused with how long they were living there) but they also said that I’m evicting as I’m discriminating against them as I refused to take HAP. This is completely untrue! I have never received forms etc from them about HAP. They have been in touch with Threshold and they are sending a complaint to the RTB. I’m really worried about them saying that I’m discriminating and what will happen with the RTB. I’m going to resend the notice with the correct number of days tomorrow. I’m really worried about this. There is no other reason to evict only that my brother is moving in. Has this happened to anyone or has anyone any advice?

whiskeyman · 12-08-2018 9:20pm

Do you own the property?
If so, they are not tenants, but licencees.
They have no where near the same rights.
I'm pretty sure you'll be fine.

Edit - I assumed you're living in it too?
See below if not!

Time · 12-08-2018 9:21pm

whiskeyman wrote: »

Do you own the property?
If so, they are not tenants, but licencees.
They have no where near the same rights.
I'm pretty sure you'll be fine.

That’s only if you live in the property.

OP have a solicitor draft up the notification and once it’s all done correctly you’ll be fine.

The Student · 12-08-2018 9:26pm

Justme82 wrote: »

I gave notice to my tenants to leave my property, as my brother is moving in, last week. My brothers circumstances have changed so I’m getting a lot of pressure from my parents to let him move in. I got a text from my tenants saying that I gave the wrong number of days notice (I did, I got confused with how long they were living there) but they also said that I’m evicting as I’m discriminating against them as I refused to take HAP. This is completely untrue! I have never received forms etc from them about HAP. They have been in touch with Threshold and they are sending a complaint to the RTB. I’m really worried about them saying that I’m discriminating and what will happen with the RTB. I’m going to resend the notice with the correct number of days tomorrow. I’m really worried about this. There is no other reason to evict only that my brother is moving in. Has this happened to anyone or has anyone any advice?

Once you give correct notice and have the statutory declaration you will be ok. They are just trying to intimidate you. Issue the correct notice and statutory dec and you will be ok.

Eric Cartman · 12-08-2018 9:27pm

sounds like threshold told them to pull some tricks, get legal advice.

myshirt · 12-08-2018 9:35pm

This is sabre rattling. Noise. Nuisance.

Stand firm against these f#ckers.

Justme82 · 12-08-2018 9:54pm

Time wrote: »

That’s only if you live in the property.

OP have a solicitor draft up the notification and once it’s all done correctly you’ll be fine.

I don’t live in the property, I moved in with my other half so I rented it out. I had a commissioner of oaths sign the declaration for me. I will redo it tomorrow with the correct number of days and send it again. Thank you!

Justme82 · 12-08-2018 10:01pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

sounds like threshold told them to pull some tricks, get legal advice.

I think so too. I haven’t received any forms etc about HAP

Eric Cartman · 12-08-2018 10:05pm

Justme82 wrote: »

I think so too. I haven’t received any forms etc about HAP

very easy to fill out forms with an old date or something, in the eyes of the 'tenants always right' prtb you are the all powerful mr. burns landlord and they are but a weak tenant who would never lie.

Justme82 · 12-08-2018 10:17pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

very easy to fill out forms with an old date or something, in the eyes of the 'tenants always right' prtb you are the all powerful mr. burns landlord and they are but a weak tenant who would never lie.

Ha ha I wish I was Mr Burns! They are lying through their teeth

Time · 12-08-2018 10:24pm

Justme82 wrote: »

I don’t live in the property, I moved in with my other half so I rented it out. I had a commissioner of oaths sign the declaration for me. I will redo it tomorrow with the correct number of days and send it again. Thank you!

That’s just as good, you’ll be fine once there’s no other mistake. The accusation around HAP is nonsense, even if you were refusing HAP, that’s a separate issue and the statutory declaration would be sufficient.

utmbuilder · 13-08-2018 1:59am

prepare to have them drag this out for 18 months

also brace yourself in case they stop rental payments if so you just have to wait foe the rtb hearings and court enforcement takes a long time. very common and then you have to go the long process of the rtb to get them out. if hap was passing you it would of covered the dispute period.

they will be desperate with no where to go on hap so if this doesn't end up screwing you badly I would be very suprised

If you get financially ruined on this I would be blaming the parents and brother for pushing you into it.

solicitors can be an expensive waste of time, best read up and know the act inside out yourself, your next step will be a rtb fine if your not registered, then waiting 3 months for their hearing

if they appeal or delay that then There's a tribunal takes another 4 months, then if they still don't leave you can push the rtb to go to the courts takes more time and sheriff's take time and cost about 2k now

If tax affairs are in order good. if they are not and they contact collector general be ready for 50% of the rent back monthly in tax to revenue who live putting leans on houses these days.

The_Conductor · 13-08-2018 7:56am

Unfortunately UTMBuilder is spelling out the cold hard facts of the situation.
The tenants have now gone to Threshold- who will advise them of any possible device they can use to frustrate your attempts to retrieve your property.
Get good advice on absolutely everything you do from hereon out- you can't afford to make mistakes- such as the silly one with the wrong dates on the notice.
Be prepared for this to get drawn out and messy........

davo10 · 13-08-2018 8:36am

When serving your notice, get your solicitor to add a note stating that you have no record of ever receiving application for HAP and that you reject the accusation of discrimination on this basis.

Act quickly, do not delay one day, if they send you a registered letter with HAP forms, it makes their case stronger. Hand deliver it today, take a newspaper with today's date and record delivery on your phone.

Del2005 · 13-08-2018 8:48am

davo10 wrote: »

When serving your notice, get your solicitor to add a note stating that you have no record of ever receiving application for HAP and that you reject the accusation of discrimination on this basis.

Act quickly, do not delay one day, if they send you a registered letter with HAP forms, it makes their case stronger. Hand deliver it today, take a newspaper with today's date and record delivery on your phone.

Then the tenants will accuse the OP of not allowing them quiet enjoyment of their home. Better send it registered and if not accepted then do a hand delivery.

davo10 · 13-08-2018 8:57am

Del2005 wrote: »

Then the tenants will accuse the OP of not allowing them quiet enjoyment of their home. Better send it registered and if not accepted then do a hand delivery.

Hand delivery is an accepted form of service. Op has to get the notice to the tenant before the tenant gets the HAP forms to him/her.

garhjw · 13-08-2018 2:33pm

OP if the tenants have gotten threshold involved, like otherwise said expect this to be drawn out. All threshold do in many cases is waste the already stretched resources of the RTB. I am dealing with them at present and their behaviour is a disgrace.
I suggest getting a solicitor to assist to ensure all is in order.
Good luck

Del2005 · 13-08-2018 6:07pm

garhjw wrote: »

OP if the tenants have gotten threshold involved, like otherwise said expect this to be drawn out. All threshold do in many cases is waste the already stretched resources of the RTB. I am dealing with them at present and their behaviour is a disgrace.
I suggest getting a solicitor to assist to ensure all is in order.
Good luck

Or just pay them to leave. Unfortunately it's the cheapest and quickest way to get your property back.

crkcvnirl · 13-08-2018 6:26pm

Justme82 wrote: »

I gave notice to my tenants to leave my property, as my brother is moving in, last week. My brothers circumstances have changed so I’m getting a lot of pressure from my parents to let him move in. I got a text from my tenants saying that I gave the wrong number of days notice (I did, I got confused with how long they were living there) but they also said that I’m evicting as I’m discriminating against them as I refused to take HAP. This is completely untrue! I have never received forms etc from them about HAP. They have been in touch with Threshold and they are sending a complaint to the RTB. I’m really worried about them saying that I’m discriminating and what will happen with the RTB. I’m going to resend the notice with the correct number of days tomorrow. I’m really worried about this. There is no other reason to evict only that my brother is moving in. Has this happened to anyone or has anyone any advice?

On a slightly different angle. It's good of your mum and brother to cause you this hassle, but when your brother finally moves in will he be on near market rent? Will his payment cover the bills generated eg property tax, insurances, maintenance etc

To facilitate his moving in, who'll foot the potential bill for any legal expense you'll incur dealing with the current tenants? If they damage the place pre-moving out their deposits may not cover that, so who'll help you foot that bill?

Just something for you to think about.

Best of luck.

tvjunki · 13-08-2018 8:06pm

Justme82 wrote: »

I gave notice to my tenants to leave my property, as my brother is moving in, last week. My brothers circumstances have changed so I’m getting a lot of pressure from my parents to let him move in. I got a text from my tenants saying that I gave the wrong number of days notice (I did, I got confused with how long they were living there) but they also said that I’m evicting as I’m discriminating against them as I refused to take HAP. This is completely untrue! I have never received forms etc from them about HAP. They have been in touch with Threshold and they are sending a complaint to the RTB. I’m really worried about them saying that I’m discriminating and what will happen with the RTB. I’m going to resend the notice with the correct number of days tomorrow. I’m really worried about this. There is no other reason to evict only that my brother is moving in. Has this happened to anyone or has anyone any advice?

Make sure you have the correct notice given. Send by Swift post with no signature required. Get that out as soon as possible. Use the format on rtb site to the letter of the law. Do not mention the text on discrimination as they then have ammunition. Just send with the statutory declaration and give then one day above what is required.

Forget about the discrimination statement. They are clutching at straws. Rtb do not look at discrimination it is another body that looks at that. You are not discriminating against them..your brother needs the house. The discrimination may work in your favour as they are making a false accusation. Keep this as ammo if required. Next thing get a solicitor that has experience with rtb cases well worth every penny speaking from experience. If you go to rtb on your own they will find against you even if you are right. Also you can write your legal costs against your tax bill. Think before you speak or text as they can be held against you.

By the way get all the texts and calls and right up a log to give to your solicitor. Very helpful if rtb see you had a good relationship with them until you gave notice. These people forget they need a reference when they leave and when they move to a second property they will see what they are really like.
Best of luck.

Visconti · 13-08-2018 8:09pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

very easy to fill out forms with an old date or something, in the eyes of the 'tenants always right' prtb you are the all powerful mr. burns landlord and they are but a weak tenant who would never lie.

Totally disagree I found prtb to be impartial and professional.

tvjunki · 13-08-2018 9:06pm

Keep copies of everything as well.

Rtb is the same as court. Don't assume it is just a chat. Hopefully it will not come to it.
I think rtb is fair only when you have a solicitor defending your case or when you are appealing.

Turnipman · 13-08-2018 9:11pm

Visconti wrote: »

Totally disagree I found prtb to be impartial and professional.

Which side of the dispute were you on?

Visconti · 14-08-2018 9:26am

Turnipman wrote: »

Which side of the dispute were you on?

Landlord. Tennant trashed my house, didnt pay the rent for 3 months.

GGTrek · 14-08-2018 11:20am

Visconti wrote: »

Turnipman wrote: »

Which side of the dispute were you on?

Landlord. Tennant trashed my house, didnt pay the rent for 3 months.

You had an easy extreme case. Normally RTB adjudicators will provide free legal advice to the tenants during the hearing. This is NOT the job they are paid for.

I do think that the extreme case of OP's tenant taking the case all the way to the RTB Tribunal is quite unlikely.

Lux23 · 14-08-2018 12:12pm

Justme82 wrote: »

Ha ha I wish I was Mr Burns! They are lying through their teeth

Plenty of landlords are using the relatives' excuse to get tenants out too though. It happened to me twice, so it is far from an uncommon occurrence.

Del2005 · 14-08-2018 12:50pm

Visconti wrote: »

Landlord. Tennant trashed my house, didnt pay the rent for 3 months.

Did you get your 3 months rent and how much compensation did you get for the damage?

Visconti · 14-08-2018 8:18pm

Del2005 wrote: »

Did you get your 3 months rent and how much compensation did you get for the damage?

I got a court judgement and then handed it over to the sherrif. The sherrif calling to them got me an agreement per week which is being paid.
Prtb did everything they could within their remit.
I won the case and in the end caused the scum tenant almost as much stress as they caused me.
Prtb wont hand it to you on a plate but will be fair and can only work with what you give them.

Visconti · 14-08-2018 8:20pm

GGTrek wrote: »

You had an easy extreme case. Normally RTB adjudicators will provide free legal advice to the tenants during the hearing. This is NOT the job they are paid for.

I do think that the extreme case of OP's tenant taking the case all the way to the RTB Tribunal is quite unlikely.

Easy case ? Did I ?

tvjunki · 14-08-2018 9:01pm

Visconti wrote: »

I got a court judgement and then handed it over to the sherrif. The sherrif calling to them got me an agreement per week which is being paid.
Prtb did everything they could within their remit.
I won the case and in the end caused the scum tenant almost as much stress as they caused me.
Prtb wont hand it to you on a plate but will be fair and can only work with what you give them.

Just out of interest did you go through rtb, and then have to go to court and then the sherriff? What did it cost you to go to rtb, the court and sherriff? Did you charge to tenant for your time and the solicitor or barrister? Also was the person working or on social?

Many solicitors will say you are wasting your time if they are on social. ..that is why landlords are not interested in schemes like rent allowance or the new HAP that sides with the council.

Visconti · 14-08-2018 9:36pm

tvjunki wrote: »

Just out of interest did you go through rtb, and then have to go to court and then the sherriff? What did it cost you to go to rtb, the court and sherriff? Did you charge to tenant for your time and the solicitor or barrister? Also was the person working or on social?

Many solicitors will say you are wasting your time if they are on social. ..that is why landlords are not interested in schemes like rent allowance or the new HAP that sides with the council.

Prtb held the hearing in their office near oconnell street.
I won the hearing and prtb gave a judgement for almost everything I had claimed for.
Prtb at my request brought it to circuit court and the judge then sided with me also. (Tenant never turned up)
I then got the official judgement and brought it to the sherrif and asked them to enforce the judgement and take goods etc to the value of my judgement.
The tenant buckled and made an offer to pay all the money with a weekly payment it will take 10 years.
I have been receiving the money every week by direct debit.
I have the file put away but could get it out for technical terms if people need clarification.
Prtb are impartial in my experience.

CollyFlower · 15-08-2018 12:05am

I can't see why anyone would become a independent LL, from what I've seen, read and heard it's a gamble for the sole landlord., the independent LL will can pay over 50% tax on the rental income, yet Reit and their ilk are paying only 12% tax on their income... So unfair.

utmbuilder · 15-08-2018 2:02am

how did you find the tennant did the rtb help with their new rtb registration or did you have to investigate yourself?

your one of the lucky few to get the 10 year judgement.

is that judgement untaxed now or do you have to declare it ?

Del2005 · 15-08-2018 10:10am

Visconti wrote: »

Prtb held the hearing in their office near oconnell street.
I won the hearing and prtb gave a judgement for almost everything I had claimed for.
Prtb at my request brought it to circuit court and the judge then sided with me also. (Tenant never turned up)
I then got the official judgement and brought it to the sherrif and asked them to enforce the judgement and take goods etc to the value of my judgement.
The tenant buckled and made an offer to pay all the money with a weekly payment it will take 10 years.
I have been receiving the money every week by direct debit.
I have the file put away but could get it out for technical terms if people need clarification.
Prtb are impartial in my experience.

Thanks for replying. You are the 1st landlord that I have heard having a good outcome from the RTB, that's why I asked you the question.

LuckyLloyd · 15-08-2018 11:27am

That's really good to hear. I definitely think that entire process you have laid out should be expedited but it's good to hear that it can be followed successfully and justice done.

The_Conductor · 15-08-2018 11:57am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

followed successfully and justice done.

Success and Justice- are subjective though.

If someone owed you 5,000- would you be happy to collect a tenner a week for ten years? I know I wouldn't. The hassle and paperwork- would be a freaking nightmare. It sounds like the poster was satisfied that he caused the tenant who deliberately set out to destroy his property- as much grief as possible. Extracting an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth though- while it may be biblical- isn't fair or reasonable in my books- even if it does seem to suit some people?

There has to be a better way of doing things.

LuckyLloyd · 15-08-2018 12:05pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Success and Justice- are subjective though.

If someone owed you 5,000- would you be happy to collect a tenner a week for ten years? I know I wouldn't. The hassle and paperwork- would be a freaking nightmare. It sounds like the poster was satisfied that he caused the tenant who deliberately set out to destroy his property- as much grief as possible. Extracting an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth though- while it may be biblical- isn't fair or reasonable in my books- even if it does seem to suit some people?

There has to be a better way of doing things.

Presumably the sheriff came back with the offer from the tenant and the aggrieved party chose to accept that as opposed to other options (goods to value of).

The more this type of process was followed to a conclusion and became a normal consequence of ****ing things up the better it would be. The only problem we have here is the time it takes to move through the stages. Ideally we would invest to clear down backlogs at each stage of the process. But this is justice off the back of due process.

What else would you suggest? I'm not close minded to other suggestions once they can be considered fair and transparent.

pc7 · 15-08-2018 12:06pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

There has to be a better way of doing things.

Absolutely and a government willing to back a new way, there just doesn't seem to be the stomach for it. Landords = bad, is working for the narrative of the current housing issues.

Xterminator · 15-08-2018 1:52pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Success and Justice- are subjective though.

If someone owed you 5,000- would you be happy to collect a tenner a week for ten years? I know I wouldn't. .

you cannot get money they dont have either. You have to be practical too.

what's your suggestion - take their 1st born child?

davo10 · 15-08-2018 1:55pm

Xterminator wrote: »

you cannot get money they dont have either. You have to be practical too.

what's your suggestion - take their 1st born child?

If it was me, I'd write off the €3k to get her out at the end of notice period. If she overholds and stops paying rent, it could take 3 times that in legal fees/lost rent and a miserable year to evict her.

goat2 · 15-08-2018 1:57pm

How long have they been tenants,
Are there children in the house.
When is the contract up,
Are they keeping up payments.
Have you had any issues with them since they moved in.

Lux23 · 15-08-2018 3:25pm

CollyFlower wrote: »

I can't see why anyone would become a independent LL, from what I've seen, read and heard it's a gamble for the sole landlord., the independent LL will can pay over 50% tax on the rental income, yet Reit and their ilk are paying only 12% tax on their income... So unfair.

How many actually really pay 50%? My landlord certainly doesn't.

Visconti · 15-08-2018 9:35pm

utmbuilder wrote: »

how did you find the tennant did the rtb help with their new rtb registration or did you have to investigate yourself?

your one of the lucky few to get the 10 year judgement.

is that judgement untaxed now or do you have to declare it ?

Prtb found them. Social welfare had to pass on the tenants details to them from what I can remember but I cant be 100% sure. I was not furnished with this till either the court judgement or the file I brought to the sheriff but I knew their address only in the very end, all paperwork had their details blacked out.
I also had them blacklisted as part of the procedure.
My judgement is over 5k and will take years to clear but I got the best result I possibly could I recon.
99% of the time these types of people walk away scott free but they did it too dirty for me to walk away.
I have a few properties and have had bits of damage done and lost the odd months rent here and there it goes with the territory, I never once went to prtb just got on with it.
This time it was different the way it was done was too filthy to let go. I couldn't look at myself in the mirror if I did not at least try.
I get the points people are making here and I suppose if its a 50/50 and the landlord is whingeing about a stain on the carpet and the tenant says it was there when they moved in etc etc prtb might side with the tenant.
I would like to point out the day my case came up the solicitor representing prtb did great and I witnessed the lady win several cases for prtb.
My experience with prtb was fair they did what they could with the parameters they have to deal with. I would have liked the money in a lump sum but that was never going to happen. A few people much more intelligent than me recon my case would have approx 10k ! I am out well over 5k and I have to write the final bit in capital letters.
AFTER ALL THIS THE FAMILY WERE GIVEN A NICE FREE HOUSE FROM TUATH HOUSING.
Makes me wonder how the system works.........
I offered my story to several politicians and housing campaigners but nobody wanted to know.

Visconti · 15-08-2018 9:39pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Presumably the sheriff came back with the offer from the tenant and the aggrieved party chose to accept that as opposed to other options (goods to value of).

The more this type of process was followed to a conclusion and became a normal consequence of ****ing things up the better it would be. The only problem we have here is the time it takes to move through the stages. Ideally we would invest to clear down backlogs at each stage of the process. But this is justice off the back of due process.

What else would you suggest? I'm not close minded to other suggestions once they can be considered fair and transparent.

Totally agree. A neighbour had a house trashed and told me the prtb were no use so we compared stories and he thought they should have just handed him a cheque lol
He was left his house in a will I worked for everything I have maybe thats where my tenacity came from.

Visconti · 15-08-2018 9:48pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Success and Justice- are subjective though.

If someone owed you 5,000- would you be happy to collect a tenner a week for ten years? I know I wouldn't. The hassle and paperwork- would be a freaking nightmare. It sounds like the poster was satisfied that he caused the tenant who deliberately set out to destroy his property- as much grief as possible. Extracting an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth though- while it may be biblical- isn't fair or reasonable in my books- even if it does seem to suit some people?

There has to be a better way of doing things.

I take your point its not for everyone. But any man or woman can only say what they will do after it happens.
To do nothing would have been more stress for me than going through the process if I remember it took over two years.
I have closure now. I think the system is a disgrace and there is very little justice for lanlords but thats down to the law not prtb.
I have nothing but good luck since it happened, I have wonderful tenants who never bother me . It even spurred me on to get another little property as many would have sold up after my experience but it drove me to do the opposite. Strange but true.

dotsman · 15-08-2018 9:50pm

CollyFlower wrote: »

I can't see why anyone would become a independent LL, from what I've seen, read and heard it's a gamble for the sole landlord., the independent LL will can pay over 50% tax on the rental income, yet Reit and their ilk are paying only 12% tax on their income... So unfair.

So they pay 12% more tax on the rental income than a private landlord? And as Lux inferred to, there are plenty of Private Landlords who don't pay what they should be. What exactly are you complaining about?

Corb_lund · 16-08-2018 12:18pm

Lux23 wrote: »

How many actually really pay 50%? My landlord certainly doesn't.

I looked at renting my house before. I'm on higher tax band at around 60k so not like I'm making 150k a year and my estimated tax bill was far in excess of 50% it was farcically high.

ondafly · 16-08-2018 2:23pm

Lux23 wrote: »

How many actually really pay 50%? My landlord certainly doesn't.

If more crazy - if the Landlord doesn't live in Ireland ; the tennant is supposed to pay.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/tenants-paying-rent-to-the-revenue-1.3149410

The_Conductor · 16-08-2018 5:22pm

ondafly wrote: »

If more crazy - if the Landlord doesn't live in Ireland ; the tennant is supposed to pay.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/tenants-paying-rent-to-the-revenue-1.3149410

Its always been this way- and its not unique to the residential sector- anyone who buys a good or service from another person or company not located in Ireland- once it goes over a certain threshold- is supposed to deduct witholding tax and forward it to the Revenue Commissioners.

The 20% that a tenant is supposed to deduct from their rent for the Revenue Commissioners- is a deduction from their gross rent- and not in addition to it.

Renting a property in the private sector- is a business transaction- and really should be treated as such by everyone- half the problems in the sector are because landlords and tenants are not being professional towards one another.

utmbuilder · 17-08-2018 3:16am

there's no way of dodging the tax, revenue go to electric gas company's everything now when your caught so you end up with a bill for tens of thousands , a lean on your house cos you don't have 30grand in cash, credit ****ed

rent a room is 12500 tax free build an extension with a door

or invest in an reit, the amount of marketing telling tennents their rights they are ****en geniuses at screwing a land Lord

I heard of one case tennant went to collector general landlord got done for 10 years tax as gas company gave 2 previous tennents

landlord can't sell now, a bill for 78k along with the outstanding mortgage

Caranica · 17-08-2018 7:32am

utmbuilder wrote: »

rent a room is 12500 tax free build an extension with a door

€14,000 for several years now

Tenant alleging discrimination as evicting

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