Post RWC

Dubinusa · 14-10-2019 3:01pm #1

So J.S is leaving and Farrell assumes the reins. What does this mean for us going forward? Which players get jettisoned? Does ou style of play change?
This upcoming 6nations is the 1st step to 2023. How does our squad look in February?
I think we will see a few new lads in the wider squad.
Rhys Marshall for one. Perhaps a couple of lads returned from the wilderness? McCloskey? Marty Moore?
If it was my squad and I was planning a 4 year cycle, I would purge the squad of guys who will be too old in 2023!
Earl's. POM, Cronin and obviously Toner.
Healy's is 32 and he's still our best lh, so I would hold onto him. But. EOS and James Cronin could soon be in the frame!
Hooker is a problem. Scannell is in polar position and I thought he would have passed Rory by this stage. Hopefully, McBurney and Kelleher can push on.
Our locks look good. A lot of depth, with some young lads coming up too! Wycherly, Jack Dunne and Treadwell.
The back row is also looking strong, JOD, Boyle and Deegan could become regulars?
Scrum half is also fairly strong. Marmion, Cooney and Blade are right there as is JGP.
OH there's Carty, Carberry and RB. A decent group that could really kick on.
The backs also look good, Larmour; Lyttle, Adam Byrne, with other lads coming up too.
I think Farrell has a good hand to start with!
Personally, I would have selected Leocaster as the coaches but Farrell is the new boss.

Sabre0001 · 14-10-2019 3:07pm

Wait for a little dust to settle on the new trophy in our cabinet in a few weeks at least! :P

partyguinness · 14-10-2019 3:10pm

I think Earls has another couple of years in him at least.

Niallof9 · 14-10-2019 3:23pm

If its a bad World cup, i.e a 15 point plus loss on top of Japan game, Farrell needs to hit the ground running. He should look at bolters like Kelleher, Penny and one or two others. It would buy him time. We need to stop with the idea that every international is the be end and end all when we mess it up coming to World Cups. Like four year cycles become a moot point when you can't ever get past the quarters.

We need to change tack in how we approach games as well. Hopefully Mike Catt brings something new to the table, like Lancaster did with Leinster. We look very stale

razorblunt · 14-10-2019 3:28pm

Sort the FB position out, Conway - Larmour - TOH. I hope they all get a proper look in.
Kearney's on a further 1 year contract but I wouldn't let him darken the door of training sessions.

I'd love to see the likes of Deegan - Penney - Dorris get a go too.

Lots of scrum half options around too, I don't think McGrath is ahead of the likes of Cooney, Marmion, Blade and presumably Gibson-Park will be IQ soon too?

Overall though, I just hope there's more to this one many out static take and jog then flop to the floor.

Sanjuro · 14-10-2019 3:33pm

Gibson-Park is already IQ.

Fornevermore · 14-10-2019 3:35pm

The most important thing is a change of tactics. We need to play more attacking rugby. We have the players to do it. Joeball must go.

Henry Ford III · 14-10-2019 3:57pm

Dorris needs a name change. Deegan should be called Max Power.

Fornevermore · 14-10-2019 4:01pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Dorris needs a name change. Deegan should be called Max Power.

Dhún an doras.

Dubinusa · 14-10-2019 9:31pm

I think that Henshaw with his constant injury profile, won't make the next rwc! He's certainly had his share of misfortune. But, I can't see him being the best center available. The likes of Stewart Moore and James Hume look really promising, as does Hawkshaw and Turner.
The prospects certainly do look promising.

jacothelad · 14-10-2019 9:51pm

Full back.........Don't forget Addison.

AbusesToilets · 14-10-2019 10:53pm

So, in short hand, who would you add to the Leinster team for the internationals?

randomname2005 · 14-10-2019 10:58pm

razorblunt wrote: »

Sort the FB position out, Conway - Larmour - TOH. I hope they all get a proper look in.
Kearney's on a further 1 year contract but I wouldn't let him darken the door of training sessions.

I'd love to see the likes of Deegan - Penney - Dorris get a go too.

Lots of scrum half options around too, I don't think McGrath is ahead of the likes of Cooney, Marmion, Blade and presumably Gibson-Park will be IQ soon too?

Overall though, I just hope there's more to this one many out static take and jog then flop to the floor.

While I agree with parts of this, we need Rob Kearney. He is the best full back we have ever had, and we need him to mentor the next generation, guide them with positioning, communication etc. Do we play him all the time, no but don't just discard him.

cson · 15-10-2019 12:02am

Niallof9 wrote: »

If its a bad World cup, i.e a 15 point plus loss on top of Japan game, Farrell needs to hit the ground running. He should look at bolters like Kelleher, Penny and one or two others. It would buy him time. We need to stop with the idea that every international is the be end and end all when we mess it up coming to World Cups. Like four year cycles become a moot point when you can't ever get past the quarters.

We need to change tack in how we approach games as well. Hopefully Mike Catt brings something new to the table, like Lancaster did with Leinster. We look very stale

Isn't the IRFU budget based on finishing minimum 3rd in the Six Nations each year? In which case I don't think Farrell has time to start major experiments with new players.

razorblunt wrote: »

Sort the FB position out, Conway - Larmour - TOH. I hope they all get a proper look in.

Much as it saddens me to say as a Connacht supporter, O'Halloran isn't at the level that test rugby demands (at the level we aspire to). He's also 29 in February.

Dubinusa · 15-10-2019 2:07am

Still think Carberry is our best option at 15. But Larmour is coming along nicely. Addison has great potential and after that there's a couple of young lads who may step up. Jake Flannery? Sylvester from Leinster and possibly switching someone like Ringrose to fb.

Niallof9 · 15-10-2019 8:41am

cson wrote: »

Isn't the IRFU budget based on finishing minimum 3rd in the Six Nations each year? In which case I don't think Farrell has time to start major experiments with new players.

Much as it saddens me to say as a Connacht supporter, O'Halloran isn't at the level that test rugby demands (at the level we aspire to). He's also 29 in February.

Yes i'm aware of that, that's my point in a way, we'll just keep up this cycle of being **** at world cups (so far) if we don't stop with some of this nonsense. The public would give the IRFU and Farrell credit if he finished with a wooden spoon but had blooded guys like Larmour, Deegan, Penny, Tyler, Gibson Park, Thornberry or whoever. I certainly would.

If we do get beaten soundly in quarters, and on top of Japan i think Farrell is under serious pressure. He has been given much more responsibility since the announcement. He's not just a defence coach anymore.

My choice would have been don't announce the next coach and wait till the dust settle for the new appointment.

I think a poor World Cup will damage Irish rugby regardless and finishing third is the least of our concerns. A poor world cup is a defeat to Japan, poor v Russia and 13 plus defeat to the All Blacks (whom we clearly didn't want to face)

Sanjuro · 15-10-2019 9:00am

Dubinusa wrote: »

Still think Carberry is our best option at 15. But Larmour is coming along nicely. Addison has great potential and after that there's a couple of young lads who may step up. Jake Flannery? Sylvester from Leinster and possibly switching someone like Ringrose to fb.

Why would you switch the arguably best 13 in Ireland to full back?

Henry Ford III · 15-10-2019 9:04am

randomname2005 wrote: »

While I agree with parts of this, we need Rob Kearney. He is the best full back we have ever had, and we need him to mentor the next generation, guide them with positioning, communication etc. Do we play him all the time, no but don't just discard him.

He's old and thinks tackling is optional.

Time to move on.

Dravokivich · 15-10-2019 8:08pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

He's old and thinks tackling is optional.

Time to move on.

Last time there was a lot of criticism this happened:

https://punditarena.com/rugby/thepateam/video-rob-kearney-makes-three-tackles-in-nine-seconds/

And more recently

https://mobile.twitter.com/murray_kinsella/status/1121021813843288066

The Lost Sheep · 15-10-2019 8:40pm

randomname2005 wrote: »

While I agree with parts of this, we need Rob Kearney. He is the best full back we have ever had, and we need him to mentor the next generation, guide them with positioning, communication etc. Do we play him all the time, no but don't just discard him.

we dont if we are to look properly at 2023 and long term we dont need Kearney. He will be 34 at end of this season. We shouldn't be using him beyond this season. The next generation will benefit far more from playing with the guys that will be there in 3/4 years not Kearney who has a year or so left. We need to act differently to change behaviour especially if we do lose to New Zealand and doing the same as we've done before sint the right way to go about things

Neil3030 · 15-10-2019 9:03pm

We don't need to start changing the team (outside of retirement or injury) with the RWC in mind until the pools are drawn in two years time. Until then we may see Farrell begin to impose whatever tactical changes he may want on the team, but he'll be picking the strongest players to do this at a given moment, not the players he think will be peaking at the RWC.

The Lost Sheep · 15-10-2019 9:33pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

We don't need to start changing the team (outside of retirement or injury) with the RWC in mind until the pools are drawn in two years time. Until then we may see Farrell begin to impose whatever tactical changes he may want on the team, but he'll be picking the strongest players to do this at a given moment, not the players he think will be peaking at the RWC.

maybe we do need to. Not like we've done it before. Far better chance to really look at others if you start further away from the tournament with dar greater ability to look at players, playing styles etc.

Shefwedfan · 15-10-2019 9:47pm

razorblunt wrote: »

Sort the FB position out, Conway - Larmour - TOH. I hope they all get a proper look in.
Kearney's on a further 1 year contract but I wouldn't let him darken the door of training sessions.

I'd love to see the likes of Deegan - Penney - Dorris get a go too.

Lots of scrum half options around too, I don't think McGrath is ahead of the likes of Cooney, Marmion, Blade and presumably Gibson-Park will be IQ soon too?

Overall though, I just hope there's more to this one many out static take and jog then flop to the floor.

Well FB is fairly easy. Conway is playing on the wing so isn't a FB and TOH is not even in the picture.

Larmour and Addison moving forward. Potentially Haley and Lowry as options.

Scrum Half is bigger issue, Murray for the moment but Cooney, McGrath, Marmion not really up to task for Blade and other options need to be looked at.

ClanofLams · 15-10-2019 10:12pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

maybe we do need to. Not like we've done it before. Far better chance to really look at others if you start further away from the tournament with dar greater ability to look at players, playing styles etc.

I don’t really think so, there isn’t many in Ireland who haven’t gotten a chance over the last four years. Either way only a coach with serious credit in the bank would have the leeway to do that. Farrell can’t sacrifice results with some four year plan in mind because there’s a reasonable chance he wouldn’t be there in ‘23 if he did that.

Squidgy Black · 15-10-2019 10:16pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

maybe we do need to. Not like we've done it before. Far better chance to really look at others if you start further away from the tournament with dar greater ability to look at players, playing styles etc.

Summer tours and Autumn internationals are generally the platform for coaches to do that, it's rare you'll see changes for the 6 Nations unless through injury or a player really stepping up at provincial level.

I'm willing to put money on posters moaning come 6 Nations time that Farrell has stuck with a lot of the current team and have expected an overhaul of the squad with young players.

touts · 15-10-2019 10:21pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

Still think Carberry is our best option at 15. But Larmour is coming along nicely. Addison has great potential and after that there's a couple of young lads who may step up. Jake Flannery? Sylvester from Leinster and possibly switching someone like Ringrose to fb.

I actually suspect Sexton may well retire after this world cup. He has struggled with injuries and just doesn't seem to enjoy playing anymore which makes me think he is playing in pain. Plus he has a history with concussion that isn't exactly ideal. One more hard bang on his head and he could be forced into retirement. He may be sensible enough not to wait until that happens. So far from being an option at FB. Carberry could we'll be our first choice Number 10 by the six nation's in February.

The Lost Sheep · 15-10-2019 10:48pm

ClanofLams wrote: »

I don’t really think so, there isn’t many in Ireland who haven’t gotten a chance over the last four years. Either way only a coach with serious credit in the bank would have the leeway to do that. Farrell can’t sacrifice results with some four year plan in mind because there’s a reasonable chance he wouldn’t be there in ‘23 if he did that.

I dont see it happening but it would be great if we did try something different in a world cup assuming we dont win at the weekend. How much more would it be worth if we did go further in a world cup and didn't do as well in 1/2 6 nations??

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Summer tours and Autumn internationals are generally the platform for coaches to do that, it's rare you'll see changes for the 6 Nations unless through injury or a player really stepping up at provincial level.

I'm willing to put money on posters moaning come 6 Nations time that Farrell has stuck with a lot of the current team and have expected an overhaul of the squad with young players.

so just continue the exact same way when it's likely we'll have done the same as we've done in every world cup before hand.

touts wrote: »

I actually suspect Sexton may well retire after this world cup. He has struggled with injuries and just doesn't seem to enjoy playing anymore which makes me think he is playing in pain. Plus he has a history with concussion that isn't exactly ideal. One more hard bang on his head and he could be forced into retirement. He may be sensible enough not to wait until that happens. So far from being an option at FB. Carberry could we'll be our first choice Number 10 by the six nation's in February.

as in straight after? No chance. And ridiculous to try claim he isnt enjoying playing. And the history with concussion is bit much to try say he has to retire.

ClanofLams · 15-10-2019 11:25pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I dont see it happening but it would be great if we did try something different in a world cup assuming we dont win at the weekend. How much more would it be worth if we did go further in a world cup and didn't do as well in 1/2 6 nations??

Yeah I never see it happening to be honest given the pressure for results. It sounds good in theory but you could easily end up with a situation like this World Cup where Ireland are going to be facing one of the top teams regardless and having sacrificed a potential six nations.

Has any country ever done it? For all this talk of four year cycles I don’t recall first choice players being jettisoned because they wouldn’t make a tournament in four years time. Not saying it hasn’t happened, just wondering.

We’re also working off a fairly small sample size of world cups where Ireland have failed to get past last 8. Ireland just weren’t good enough until at least 2007 to reach that stage, it was close in ‘91 but that would have been a freak result. 2007 got tournament approach in terms of training all wrong obviously, 2015 freakish injuries and suspension, be hard to overcome no matter what your four year plan was.

Other countries are getting to semis and finals without doing anything radically different to Ireland it seems. There may not be anything really wrong with the current approach.

Podge_irl · 16-10-2019 7:50am

4 years is way too long a timeframe to bother trying to actively plan for. It was, to a degree, tried with Jackson during this world cup cycle for example and look what happened. Obviously a slightly unique situation but with injuries, players moving abroad etc actively focusing on some kind of world cup cycle four years out is madness.

Shefwedfan · 16-10-2019 7:58am

I was thinking about this and was going to start thread but you beat me to it....

I see we have two options.
Option 1: Focus on the 6 nations. Play your best team each year to win the 6 nations. No 4 year plans or any of that s**t. Just win as many 6 nations as possible. If England and France are focused on WC then pick up the 6 nations trophies in the mean time. We have shown we can win them regular with Joe(3 in 6) and the Irish team did admit after the England game this year they gave up on 6 nations to focus on WC....

But we could just say feck it, our money maker is the 6 nations, its not like we have won many of them. Lets win as many as possible and just see how we end up at the WC.....

Option 2: Full 4 year plan. Pick the main squad now that will be at next WC, 40 odd players. Anyone old gets cut, thanks but we have to move on. Kearney, Sexton, Healy etc if they are not going to be around then off they go. Invest in young players. So if we think Harry Byrne will be in squad bring him in now. I know Joe does bring these players in and they get to practise but bring them in all the time. They are squad. You are going to lose 6 nations. Write them off and then hope that everything comes together in 4 years

My option would be 1. I think we can't get sucked into this 4 year cycle stuff. We haven't enough trophies to do it. Let just win as much as possible. France are looking at next WC already etc.

Niallof9 · 16-10-2019 8:31am

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Summer tours and Autumn internationals are generally the platform for coaches to do that, it's rare you'll see changes for the 6 Nations unless through injury or a player really stepping up at provincial level.

I'm willing to put money on posters moaning come 6 Nations time that Farrell has stuck with a lot of the current team and have expected an overhaul of the squad with young players.

And whats wrong with that. Defeat to Japan and now because of that abject failure, perhaps New Zealand hardly quantifies as a success. So Farrell has to hit the ground running, unless we achieve our minimum target of a semi.

Jesus lads some scary talk on here. Seems like you guys have forgotten the emergence of people like Furlong (no starts in 2015 wc) and Ryan (only distant talk), Stockdale, Larmour, Ringrose etc. Loads of players could be viable options by 2023 - Penny, Deegan, wycherley by 2, Kelleher, Baird, Doris, Milne, French, Healy, Casey, COB, Frawley and god knows who else and thats not even taking into consideration Lowe, Gibson Park, Marshall, Butler etc and then you have people Joe didn't fancy like McCloskey and one or two others.

Can we stop with all the denial. There will be big changes over the coming years. And Farrell will be lauded if he did take a few chances.

We need to forget four year cycles and we need to rejig the central contracts.

But we 100 per cent need to freshen things in the coming 18 months. I can't believe there is people even suggesting sticking with the status quo. Its mind boggling.

As much as i'm willing Ireland to win on Saturday in our heart of hearts we all know whats going to happen. As QUinlan said losing to Japan (as good as they turned out) will be a stain on this World Cup if we go out at quarters.

If we do manage a semi, Andy Farrell can come into the top job with plenty of good will and time.

The basis of a good team is there. Conway, Dillane, Larmour, Joey (maybe fullback) all should get their head in the coming year regardless. Since the days of Eddie we've had far too many undroppables.

piplip87 · 16-10-2019 3:11pm

As mentioned above there's players Joe didn't use too much which would indicate a change of style.

I'd say alot will be down to the new attack coach and whatever style he takes. He is currently with Italy so it will be hard to judge.

I'd like to see a few new faces introduced and blooded into the squad even if we sacrifice a couple of six Nations and see from there

thomond2006 · 16-10-2019 5:29pm

The backrow will be interesting. POM and Stander are at an age and field position where their participation in 2023 is questionable. Rhys Ruddock has been good when called upon but he is also in the same age bracket.

Jump_In_Jack · 16-10-2019 5:42pm

I would expect that this squad from the RWC will stay together into the 6 Nations, after doing so much work together over the summer it would make sense to maximise their return up to that point.
The 2020 tour to Australia with a tier 2 country (Fiji perhaps) would be the next obvious opportunity to try out some new players. I would expect anyone that is not going to feature in the 2021 6 Nations would be let go for that tour and for the Autumn matches.
Rory Best will be gone after this RWC.
Rob Kearney, Sean Cronin, and Johnny Sexton should be left behind next Summer.
Keith Earls and Cian Healy are borderline, would probably leave Earls and take Healy.

So we'd be looking at 2 new hookers, a new 10, a new wing, and a new fullback.

We are most of the way there already really,
Hooker: Scannell, Herring and one other; possibly Rhys Marshall or Bryan Byrne.
10: Carbery, Carty and Byrne
Wing: Stockdale, Conway and one other; Dave Kearney or possibly Darren Sweetnam, Adam Byrne or Robert Baloucoune.
Fullback: Larmour and one other; Addison or possibly Haley.

I can't see Devin Toner or Sean O'Brien getting back into the squad anymore.
Perhaps Dan Leavy can make a miraculous recovery.

There could be a bit of change in the backups in a few positions, for example, Ultan Dillane, Quinn Roux, Gavin Thornbury, or Kieran Treadwell might feature as locks, Finlay Bealham, Marty Moore or Eric O'Sullivan as tight-head props, Jack McGrath or James Cronin as Loose-head props, or back-rows such as Max Deegan, Jack O'Donoghue, Matty Rea or Paul Boyle.

Dog Botherer · 16-10-2019 7:11pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

The backrow will be interesting. POM and Stander are at an age and field position where their participation in 2023 is questionable. Rhys Ruddock has been good when called upon but he is also in the same age bracket.

Ruddock has significantly less international miles on the clock than POM and CJ, that can add years to a career.

ClanofLams · 16-10-2019 11:44pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

And whats wrong with that. Defeat to Japan and now because of that abject failure, perhaps New Zealand hardly quantifies as a success. So Farrell has to hit the ground running, unless we achieve our minimum target of a semi.

Jesus lads some scary talk on here. Seems like you guys have forgotten the emergence of people like Furlong (no starts in 2015 wc) and Ryan (only distant talk), Stockdale, Larmour, Ringrose etc. Loads of players could be viable options by 2023 - Penny, Deegan, wycherley by 2, Kelleher, Baird, Doris, Milne, French, Healy, Casey, COB, Frawley and god knows who else and thats not even taking into consideration Lowe, Gibson Park, Marshall, Butler etc and then you have people Joe didn't fancy like McCloskey and one or two others.

Can we stop with all the denial. There will be big changes over the coming years. And Farrell will be lauded if he did take a few chances.

We need to forget four year cycles and we need to rejig the central contracts.

But we 100 per cent need to freshen things in the coming 18 months. I can't believe there is people even suggesting sticking with the status quo. Its mind boggling.

As much as i'm willing Ireland to win on Saturday in our heart of hearts we all know whats going to happen. As QUinlan said losing to Japan (as good as they turned out) will be a stain on this World Cup if we go out at quarters.

If we do manage a semi, Andy Farrell can come into the top job with plenty of good will and time.

The basis of a good team is there. Conway, Dillane, Larmour, Joey (maybe fullback) all should get their head in the coming year regardless. Since the days of Eddie we've had far too many undroppables.

I don’t see anyone arguing for the status quo in terms of the exact same players. Some of the players you mention will break though just as you point out Furlong and Ryan did, etc. They broke through because they were the best options available not with the World Cup in mind.

People are sceptical of a four year plan. As I said I don’t recall any country doing it and countries who target success every year in the 6N (England/Wales) have done well in World Cups so I don’t see much wrong with that approach.

Whilst you may laud Farrell for risk taking, the public reaction would be very different. If he suddenly dropped everyone unlikely to make France in ‘23 and came fourth in the six nations, he would be under immediate pressure.

Shefwedfan · 17-10-2019 8:02am

ClanofLams wrote: »

I don’t see anyone arguing for the status quo in terms of the exact same players. Some of the players you mention will break though just as you point out Furlong and Ryan did, etc. They broke through because they were the best options available not with the World Cup in mind.

People are sceptical of a four year plan. As I said I don’t recall any country doing it and countries who target success every year in the 6N (England/Wales) have done well in World Cups so I don’t see much wrong with that approach.

Whilst you may laud Farrell for risk taking, the public reaction would be very different. If he suddenly dropped everyone unlikely to make France in ‘23 and came fourth in the six nations, he would be under immediate pressure.

The problem with Ireland and you see it already here, Farrell hasn’t even taken over, Catt is not even part of the team and some plonkers already have the knives out for them

How are you supposed to do anything and build a team if they lose one game and everyone wants them sacked?
They get them sacked, ask them what coach they wants and it’s always some provincial bias c**p and it’s xyz, not because they are good enough, it’s because they played or worked with one province

The IRFu should say Farrell is in for next 4 years, end of story and let him build the team.

ClanofLams · 17-10-2019 8:38am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The problem with Ireland and you see it already here, Farrell hasn’t even taken over, Catt is not even part of the team and some plonkers already have the knives out for them

How are you supposed to do anything and build a team if they lose one game and everyone wants them sacked?
They get them sacked, ask them what coach they wants and it’s always some provincial bias c**p and it’s xyz, not because they are good enough, it’s because they played or worked with one province

The IRFu should say Farrell is in for next 4 years, end of story and let him build the team.

There isn’t really any problem. Irish coaches since Eddie O’Sullivan took over have all gotten sufficient time.

I don’t see any substance behind calls for a four year plan, more than half the New Zealand back line made their debuts in 2018/2019 and that’s with a coaching ticket who have been involved in back to back World Cup wins.

Think that gives us some hope and might be a problem for them but it just proves that every country largely focuses on the short term without some plan that builds specifically for the World Cup, New Zealand have tended to use the tri nations/ rugby championship in World Cup years for some experimentation but every other year they are focused on winning it and winning all their games.

Wouldn’t at all agree with giving anyone four years guaranteed. Farrell will get until the end of 2021 season at a minimum but you can’t guarantee anyone four years.

Niallof9 · 17-10-2019 8:49am

ClanofLams wrote: »

I don’t see anyone arguing for the status quo in terms of the exact same players. Some of the players you mention will break though just as you point out Furlong and Ryan did, etc. They broke through because they were the best options available not with the World Cup in mind.

People are sceptical of a four year plan. As I said I don’t recall any country doing it and countries who target success every year in the 6N (England/Wales) have done well in World Cups so I don’t see much wrong with that approach.

Whilst you may laud Farrell for risk taking, the public reaction would be very different. If he suddenly dropped everyone unlikely to make France in ‘23 and came fourth in the six nations, he would be under immediate pressure.

I'm not for 4 year cycles at all. I think its foolish, particularly as we seem to fail at most World Cups.

I completely disagree, lose on Saturday (i hope we don't) and he already is under serious pressure. He's the assistant coach. If it didn't count why did he get the heave with England...cause he's part of it. So he's already under the kosh. He needs to be bold, and i would certainly back him then if he took that path. IF he continued on with the same 14 minus best that would be probably it for me.We need some change. Continuing on if this squad gets defeated on Saturday will not go down well with anybody. There will be serious repercussions imo as the reality sets in about losing to Japan and the destiny that followed that loss etc, and that we were looking for a South Africa quarter (as difficult as that would be, they aren't as good as people are making out)

No way some of the lads can stay in. Conway deserves a decent shout, Larmour becomes first choice. More game time for Joey. Hooker. Healy looks wrecked but is still World Class.

So look yeah it picks itself at times. But we need to really look at some lads in competitive games. Leavy to come back.

Thankfully after 2016/17 Joe did become more of a risk taker in selection.

Niallof9 · 17-10-2019 8:59am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The problem with Ireland and you see it already here, Farrell hasn’t even taken over, Catt is not even part of the team and some plonkers already have the knives out for them

How are you supposed to do anything and build a team if they lose one game and everyone wants them sacked?
They get them sacked, ask them what coach they wants and it’s always some provincial bias c**p and it’s xyz, not because they are good enough, it’s because they played or worked with one province

The IRFu should say Farrell is in for next 4 years, end of story and let him build the team.

And some plonkers will defend the status quo to the death (as we saw in soccer with the FAI and Mick now), when its clear to 99 per cent of people that something is wrong and change is needed.

Nobody wants anybody sacked but some of us want to see real change, particularly after defeat to Japan. Look i hope to **** we win on saturday and Farrell comes in on a high, the players love him and he has free reign. But we probably all know its a bridge too far. And then we have to turn back to what happened. We lost to Japan and Andy Farrell's fingerprints were all over it.

So four years for Farrell regardless of results :rolleyes:

good luck with that

Its a results game. So either the IRFU give him freedom to change things and say don't worry about placing or its about results and we finish poorly regardless doing the same stuff and then what? For me the former is acceptable if players are picked on form and not international contracts. The latter would make me switch off altogether. The problem with Catt is it seemed rushed and poorly judged. We have better coaches in the provinces and while Italy play a little better, its ****ing Italy. Its a giant step up.

I'm hardly a lone voice here. Catt's appointment at the time was muted and questioned by more than one scribe. Coaches pathway? what happened to that? There's already people looking at the succession plan as a reason. While people dismiss the Schmidt leaving thing and cite Gatland...Pivac isn't sitting in on the Welsh team as well is he now. Its a mistake and rushed for me; typical like rewarding former coaches and soccer managers before tournaments with new contracts.

so away with calling people plonkers.

Hopefully it all works out on Saturday and people like me come off looking very very foolish.

ClanofLams · 17-10-2019 9:08am

Niallof9 wrote: »

I'm not for 4 year cycles at all. I think its foolish, particularly as we seem to fail at most World Cups.

I completely disagree, lose on Saturday (i hope we don't) and he already is under serious pressure. He's the assistant coach. If it didn't count why did he get the heave with England...cause he's part of it. So he's already under the kosh. He needs to be bold, and i would certainly back him then if he took that path. IF he continued on with the same 14 minus best that would be probably it for me.We need some change. Continuing on if this squad gets defeated on Saturday will not go down well with anybody. There will be serious repercussions imo as the reality sets in about losing to Japan and the destiny that followed that loss etc, and that we were looking for a South Africa quarter (as difficult as that would be, they aren't as good as people are making out)

No way some of the lads can stay in. Conway deserves a decent shout, Larmour becomes first choice. More game time for Joey. Hooker. Healy looks wrecked but is still World Class.

So look yeah it picks itself at times. But we need to really look at some lads in competitive games. Leavy to come back.

Thankfully after 2016/17 Joe did become more of a risk taker in selection.

Ah fair enough, I misinterpreted your point re status quo, thought you meant in terms of sacrificing six nations to go with a ‘four year plan’.

Think some player turnover is inevitable but yeah it will be interesting to see what Farrell does, I guess Lancaster’s England team that he and Catt were part of played more expansive, but he didn’t enjoy the same success with that as he has with Schmidt. Would suspect there won’t be massive shift in style but only time will tell.

aloooof · 17-10-2019 9:47am

Niallof9 wrote: »

Its a results game. So either the IRFU give him freedom to change things and say don't worry about placing or its about results and we finish poorly regardless doing the same stuff and then what?

You're stating this as if these are the only 2 possible outcomes. What happens if he begins some incremental change, and remains competitive?

Imo, there's plenty of time within a 4 year cycle to make changes. It doesn't require wholesale changes from day one.

Niallof9 · 17-10-2019 9:48am

aloooof wrote: »

You're stating this as if these are the only 2 possible outcomes. What happens if he begins some incremental change, and remains competitive?

Imo, there's plenty of time within a 4 year cycle to make changes. It doesn't require wholesale changes from day one.

well i disagree if it ends badly on Saturday. Badly for me is not being competitive on the day on top of Japan defeat and all that on top of everything that happened after the win against New Zealand.

If that transpires and he makes some change as i said i'll applaud it and be happy. Incremental change is seeing more options been tried and not just going with the undroppables. Like if Larmour isn't the 15 on the opening day of the Six Nations i think he'll have lost already. Kearney is the right man for Saturday but his race is run now in green.

Shefwedfan · 17-10-2019 9:59am

Niallof9 wrote: »

And some plonkers will defend the status quo to the death (as we saw in soccer with the FAI and Mick now), when its clear to 99 per cent of people that something is wrong and change is needed.

Nobody wants anybody sacked but some of us want to see real change, particularly after defeat to Japan. Look i hope to **** we win on saturday and Farrell comes in on a high, the players love him and he has free reign. But we probably all know its a bridge too far. And then we have to turn back to what happened. We lost to Japan and Andy Farrell's fingerprints were all over it.

So four years for Farrell regardless of results :rolleyes:

good luck with that

Its a results game. So either the IRFU give him freedom to change things and say don't worry about placing or its about results and we finish poorly regardless doing the same stuff and then what? For me the former is acceptable if players are picked on form and not international contracts. The latter would make me switch off altogether. The problem with Catt is it seemed rushed and poorly judged. We have better coaches in the provinces and while Italy play a little better, its ****ing Italy. Its a giant step up.

I'm hardly a lone voice here. Catt's appointment at the time was muted and questioned by more than one scribe. Coaches pathway? what happened to that? There's already people looking at the succession plan as a reason. While people dismiss the Schmidt leaving thing and cite Gatland...Pivac isn't sitting in on the Welsh team as well is he now. Its a mistake and rushed for me; typical like rewarding former coaches and soccer managers before tournaments with new contracts.

so away with calling people plonkers.

Hopefully it all works out on Saturday and people like me come off looking very very foolish.

I was waiting for the reference to podcast or press

Quick one, you do realize the press have it in for everything IRFU at the moment because they started up their own channel and media. It was discussed in-depth on a couple of the podcasts. You miss that one?

Ever since that decision the press have flicked....so making reference to the press saying a new appointment is wrong is probably not the best source

I have mentioned this a few times but seems your incapable of making up your own mind so will leave you to it.....

P.S. yes you are calling for him to be sacked.....before we have even finished the current World Cup, what is that about?

aloooof · 17-10-2019 10:15am

Niallof9 wrote: »

well i disagree if it ends badly on Saturday. Badly for me is not being competitive on the day on top of Japan defeat and all that on top of everything that happened after the win against New Zealand.

If that transpires and he makes some change as i said i'll applaud it and be happy. Incremental change is seeing more options been tried and not just going with the undroppables. Like if Larmour isn't the 15 on the opening day of the Six Nations i think he'll have lost already. Kearney is the right man for Saturday but his race is run now in green.

What if we lose by 13 on Saturday, and he just makes the following changes for the 6 Nations:
- Larmour and Scannell starting.
- Conway into the 23 jersey.
- Carbery starting against Scotland and Italy.
- Changes in the backrow, but only because of injury.

but retains the rest of the squad, and we win 4 out of 5 matches. Would you consider that a success?

Niallof9 · 17-10-2019 11:34am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I was waiting for the reference to podcast or press

Quick one, you do realize the press have it in for everything IRFU at the moment because they started up their own channel and media. It was discussed in-depth on a couple of the podcasts. You miss that one?

Ever since that decision the press have flicked....so making reference to the press saying a new appointment is wrong is probably not the best source

I have mentioned this a few times but seems your incapable of making up your own mind so will leave you to it.....

P.S. yes you are calling for him to be sacked.....before we have even finished the current World Cup, what is that about?

ah here will you ever piss off with this angle its ****ing tired. Its my own opinion. I've seen that yeah and it has nothing to do with it. In any case its a good thing as thornley was becoming a mouth piece for IRFU propaganda because of access issues and the team turning against criticism like happened with David Kelly in New Zealand in 2012 - spoiler..i have some skin in the game. The IRFu are doing a piss poor job with a two man media team. We have over saturation of media now as well. Look i'm only referencing them as people like yourself sort of twist the critics and paint us as the crazy outsiders or minority. In fact people like yourself, the superfan are the minority. Its sport...criticism is valid..deal with it.

i said he's under serious pressure....and he is if we don't win on Saturday. And the media that i love to reference will frame this exact narrative and usually it does actually increase the pressure. If we lose on Saturday, by 15 or more points, on top of Japan, six nations, thrashing by England...Andy Farrell as assistant coach and ever increasing responsibility, he has a huge part in it and will be under serious, serious pressure as he was in 2015. And he won't be able to go back to the well of chicago or 2018 as the last frame of reference will be the failure of 2019 World Cup. If he wins the World Cup he will get a justified 15 year contract.

The players as i have explained in detail get a pass from me.

One way Farrell can redeem himself if the above transpires is by expanding our playbook and looking at new options. If he wins a grand slam doing the same thing, fair enough but i think we'll be right back here in 2023. Maybe even Mike Catt will be announced as the heir.

Like i said i will gladly trade looking like a fool for a win on Saturday

Niallof9 · 17-10-2019 11:39am

aloooof wrote: »

What if we lose by 13 on Saturday, and he just makes the following changes for the 6 Nations:
- Larmour and Scannell starting.
- Conway into the 23 jersey.
- Carbery starting against Scotland and Italy.
- Changes in the backrow, but only because of injury.

but retains the rest of the squad, and we win 4 out of 5 matches. Would you consider that a success?

yeah that's a fair point. Yeah if he does well playing the same way, same team again critics like me look foolish. But for me the World Cup trumps anything and he (farrell) has failed if it goes badly on Saturday imo. One way Farrell can redeem himself if the above transpires is by expanding our playbook and looking at new options. If he wins a grand slam doing the same thing, fair enough but i think we'll be right back here in 2023. Maybe even Mike Catt will be announced as the heir.

I just can never understand why Irish rugby can't be a little bold in selection, tactics etc. I want to see guys like Dillane, Byrne, Larmour, Conway, Scannells, Kelleher, Penny, Doris, O'Sullivan, Lowry, Balacounne, Larmour, Tyler, become tried over the coming 24 months, and then some tried and trusted and some even key Irish players. Some of those are fanciful i know. Gibson Park, Butler, Lowe, Deegan and a host of others i'm forgetting. I'm really excited about Irish rugby. And thats on top of World Class players like Henshaw, Healy (still a whipper snapper at 32) Ringrose, Ryan, Furlong, Stander, Murray, Sexton (with age caveat) and the potential World Class ability of Leavy, Joey, Stockdale, Larmour, Porter, Henderson (shouldn't be potential but it hasn't emerged consistently). Then you have the quality internationals of Josh VDF, Beirne. Earls, kearney have been great servants and World class on their day. POM is marmite for me, i know what he adds but i'm not a fan in ability terms, i think he's very lucky to be where he is. He's a great leader and rugby man and will continue to add value. Maybe Zebo comes back. Irish rugby is on an upwards curve. You can see it in the age profile of some of the players emerging. Penny with Leinster, O'Sullivan going over to join Munster. Serious James Ryan like talent.

For me it would be worth a wooden spoon.

I will despair if the 15 taking the field on Saturday is starting the six nations, no matter what happens on Saturday.

17-10-2019 12:34pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

ah here will you ever piss off with this angle its ****ing tired. Its my own opinion. I've seen that yeah and it has nothing to do with it. In any case its a good thing as thornley was becoming a mouth piece for IRFU propaganda because of access issues and the team turning against criticism like happened with David Kelly in New Zealand in 2012 - spoiler..i have some skin in the game. The IRFu are doing a piss poor job with a two man media team. We have over saturation of media now as well. Look i'm only referencing them as people like yourself sort of twist the critics and paint us as the crazy outsiders or minority. In fact people like yourself, the superfan are the minority. Its sport...criticism is valid..deal with it.

i said he's under serious pressure....and he is if we don't win on Saturday. And the media that i love to reference will frame this exact narrative and usually it does actually increase the pressure. If we lose on Saturday, by 15 or more points, on top of Japan, six nations, thrashing by England...Andy Farrell as assistant coach and ever increasing responsibility, he has a huge part in it and will be under serious, serious pressure as he was in 2015. And he won't be able to go back to the well of chicago or 2018 as the last frame of reference will be the failure of 2019 World Cup. If he wins the World Cup he will get a justified 15 year contract.

The players as i have explained in detail get a pass from me.

One way Farrell can redeem himself if the above transpires is by expanding our playbook and looking at new options. If he wins a grand slam doing the same thing, fair enough but i think we'll be right back here in 2023. Maybe even Mike Catt will be announced as the heir.

Like i said i will gladly trade looking like a fool for a win on Saturday

The result on Saturday should be irrelevant if it's all about the process up to this point.

Danthemanhere · 17-10-2019 12:46pm

Kilcoyne 30
Scannell 27
Furlong 26
Ryan 23
Henderson 27
O Mahony 30
Van Der Fier 26/Leavy 25
Standar 29 Conan 27
Murray 30
Carbery 23
Stockdale 23
Aki 29 Farell 26
Ringrose 24
Conway 28 Lowe 27
Larmour 22

There's the starting line up 30 and under who definitely could be available for the next world cup. Other players will come in and emerge, some of these will lose form and get injured but we don't need wholesale changes to build for the next world cup. What we do need is a change in game plan.

Shefwedfan · 17-10-2019 12:49pm

Danthemanhere wrote: »

Kilcoyne 30
Scannell 27
Furlong 26
Ryan 23
Henderson 27
O Mahony 30
Van Der Fier 26/Leavy 25
Standar 29 Conan 27
Murray 30
Carbery 23
Stockdale 23
Aki 29 Farell 26
Ringrose 24
Conway 28 Lowe 27
Larmour 22

There's the starting line up 30 and under who definitely could be available for the next world cup. Other players will come in and emerge, some of these will lose form and get injured but we don't need wholesale changes to build for the next world cup. What we do need is a change in game plan.

POM, Stander, Aki and Murray I doubt will make it to next WC.....

Shefwedfan · 17-10-2019 12:54pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

ah here will you ever piss off with this angle its ****ing tired. Its my own opinion. I've seen that yeah and it has nothing to do with it. In any case its a good thing as thornley was becoming a mouth piece for IRFU propaganda because of access issues and the team turning against criticism like happened with David Kelly in New Zealand in 2012 - spoiler..i have some skin in the game. The IRFu are doing a piss poor job with a two man media team. We have over saturation of media now as well. Look i'm only referencing them as people like yourself sort of twist the critics and paint us as the crazy outsiders or minority. In fact people like yourself, the superfan are the minority. Its sport...criticism is valid..deal with it.

i said he's under serious pressure....and he is if we don't win on Saturday. And the media that i love to reference will frame this exact narrative and usually it does actually increase the pressure. If we lose on Saturday, by 15 or more points, on top of Japan, six nations, thrashing by England...Andy Farrell as assistant coach and ever increasing responsibility, he has a huge part in it and will be under serious, serious pressure as he was in 2015. And he won't be able to go back to the well of chicago or 2018 as the last frame of reference will be the failure of 2019 World Cup. If he wins the World Cup he will get a justified 15 year contract.

The players as i have explained in detail get a pass from me.

One way Farrell can redeem himself if the above transpires is by expanding our playbook and looking at new options. If he wins a grand slam doing the same thing, fair enough but i think we'll be right back here in 2023. Maybe even Mike Catt will be announced as the heir.

Like i said i will gladly trade looking like a fool for a win on Saturday

Farrell is defense coach. He just looks after the defense. A part of the game which has worked well with only 2 tries against this WC

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