Extreme noise level - creche

Yurple · 14-05-2018 9:08am #1

Hello everybody,

I am looking for advise after searching on citizens information, threshold.ie, and several other sources that talk about noise.

When I bought my apartment many years ago, it was in its building phase. They showed the plans and a mockup and everybody was happy with it.
Some time after the apartments were finished... someone got permission to build a large creche in the middle of the courtyard of every single apartment in the area.

Every day between 08:30 and 09:00 they put every child in the creche out into the courtyard play zone and tell them to make as much noise as possible. They see who can shout the loudest, they chase them and make them run etc... it is absolutely crazy.

I work a lot of very late shifts and full night shifts. I just cannot sleep. Window vents completely shut, double layered ear plugs, nothing works. The noise level is too high.

I have to sleep on the couch and this has been going on for so long now that I have this ongoing pain in my back and right shoulder...

I do not know if there is anything I can do. Can anybody provide me with advise? Since I am in negative equity I am unable to move to another place. I am stuck.

Thanks in advanced!

iamwhoiam · 14-05-2018 9:12am

Could you swap your rooms around ? Bedroom where the sitting room is now ? If not could you buy a fold away bed to use when you need to sleep ?
I did night duty all my working life and had to think of ways of helping myself as the world outside sure wasn't !

Yurple · 14-05-2018 9:18am

Yes I have tried a foldaway bed but it broke - i should get one again.

Unable to swap everything due to connections and different size. Thanks though!

spaceHopper · 14-05-2018 9:46am

Check the planning permission and see were there any conditions attached that they are breaking. Complain to the building management. Can you rent it and rent somewhere else?

What about noise canceling head phones

zell12 · 14-05-2018 9:56am

Noise pollution laws
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/environmental_protection/noise_regulations.html

However, it's happening at a reasonable time (0900) so I suspect your complaints will be ignored.

Graces7 · 14-05-2018 11:29am

spaceHopper wrote: »

Check the planning permission and see were there any conditions attached that they are breaking. Complain to the building management. Can you rent it and rent somewhere else?

What about noise canceling head phones

Not possible to sleep in. I tried at one stage.. In need I use now wax ear plugs that work better than the foam ones..

OP, I feel for you, I really do

uck51js9zml2yt · 14-05-2018 1:51pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Not possible to sleep in. I tried at one stage.. In need I use now wax ear plugs that work better than the foam ones..

OP, I feel for you, I really do

Wax ear plugs

Del2005 · 14-05-2018 2:48pm

Legally there is nothing that can be done. But any reasonable business getting a valid issue raised by a neighbour should try to negate the nuisance. OP call in to the crèche and explain your problem to see what they will do, I'd be surprised if they did nothing.

Yurple · 14-05-2018 3:14pm

Thanks for all the great replies. I will try wax ear plugs instead of the foam ones i have now.

LaLa2004 · 14-05-2018 3:23pm

Go to the manager and calmly verbalize your predicament.
Complain to the owner, if nothing happens.

iamwhoiam · 14-05-2018 3:26pm

LaLa2004 wrote: »

Go to the manager and calmly verbalize your predicament.
Complain to the owner, if nothing happens.

Its 8;30 till 9 am and allowing the preschool children out in the fresh air . What is there to complain about ?

GreeBo · 14-05-2018 3:28pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

What is there to complain about ?

Erm, the noise?

iamwhoiam · 14-05-2018 3:33pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Erm, the noise?

Erm its a creche . Its like complaining that the kids are loud in a school yard
Its not the middle of the night for them . The OP has to help himself if he does night shifts in fairness
I did nights all my life but never asked my neighbour not to cut his grass .
I doubt very much there is a reason to complain in this instance actually

Yurple · 14-05-2018 3:33pm

It is between 08:30 and 09:00 in the morning until between 17:00 and 18:00 when the children are outside in the middle of the courtyard. It is not just 30 minutes. It is the entire day, 5 days a week.

They also do not just go outside and play... several of the staff members open the doors and go: "CHILDREN LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOO! SCREAM CHILDREN SCREAM!!! I AM CHASING YOU!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA"

She screams this on the top of her lungs every day ... possibly to make the children tired for the rest of the rest so it is easier to manage? I am unsure. The staff members are as loud as possible and make the children run around and scream their heads off

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Its 8;30 till 9 am and allowing the preschool children out in the fresh air . What is there to complain about ?

GreeBo · 14-05-2018 3:35pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Erm its a creche . Its like complaining that the kids are loud in a school yard
Its not the middle of the night for them . The OP has to help himself if he does night shifts in fairness
I did nights all my life but never asked my neighbour not to cut his grass .
I doubt very much there is a reason to complain in this instance actually

No, its like someone building a school yard outside your house unbeknownst to you. Based on what the OP is telling us, there seems like an awful lot to complain about actually. I know I would be complaining. Its an inappropriate use of public(?) space.

OP, is the play area in the courtyard or is there a separate area within the creche?

Teyla Emmagan · 14-05-2018 3:36pm

iamwhoiam wrote:

Erm its a creche . Its like complaining that the kids are loud in a school yard Its not the middle of the night for them . The OP has to help himself if he does night shifts in fairness I did nights all my life but never asked my neighbour not to cut his grass . I doubt very much there is a reason to complain in this instance actually

They are being told to shout as loud as they can, there is definitely no need for that. A block of apartments probably has loads of people inside at that hour of the day. I would definitely be complaining about it. And your neighbour hardly cut the grass five days a week.

iamwhoiam · 14-05-2018 3:36pm

Yurple wrote: »

It is between 08:30 and 09:00 in the morning until between 17:00 and 18:00 when the children are outside in the middle of the courtyard. It is not just 30 minutes. It is the entire day, 5 days a week.

They also do not just go outside and play... several of the staff members open the doors and go: "CHILDREN LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOO! SCREAM CHILDREN SCREAM!!! I AM CHASING YOU!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA"

She screams this on the top of her lungs every day ... possibly to make the children tired for the rest of the rest so it is easier to manage? I am unsure. The staff members are as loud as possible and make the children run around and scream their heads off

Your OP read like they were out from 8:30 till 9amSorry i thought you meant they were just out in the morning . Surely they are not out all day long ?
In fairness I would ask the creche nicely so to try not encourage the kids to scream .

Wabbit Ears · 14-05-2018 3:38pm

if they are actively encouraging the kids to make noise and scream then go over to the creche and say, I just over heard you saying "repeat what was said" please stop doing that.

Noise is reasonable, encouraging excessive noise isnt. Just call them out on it directly even if you have to record it and play it back to them as proof.

iamwhoiam · 14-05-2018 3:39pm

GreeBo wrote: »

No, its like someone building a school yard outside your house unbeknownst to you. Based on what the OP is telling us, there seems like an awful lot to complain about actually. I know I would be complaining. Its an inappropriate use of public(?) space.

OP, is the play area in the courtyard or is there a separate area within the creche?

Yes I am actually surprised it got planning permission in a courtyard ?

iamwhoiam · 14-05-2018 3:43pm

GreeBo wrote: »

No, its like someone building a school yard outside your house unbeknownst to you. Based on what the OP is telling us, there seems like an awful lot to complain about actually. I know I would be complaining. Its an inappropriate use of public(?) space.

OP, is the play area in the courtyard or is there a separate area within the creche?

Yes I misunderstood the OPs time they were out . It read like it was only for hslf an hour . I am at a loss as to why any child carer would encourage screaming though !! Its not like toddlers need encouragement for that !

Fighting Tao · 14-05-2018 3:50pm

I suspect I know the creche. It's in a busy city hub, and it opened in 2001. I'm not sure when the apartments were occupied but I presume around the same time. If it is the same one, then all children don't get out to play at the same time. The different ages have different times slots for going outdoors. I've been in it and children being children do make some noise. The space is not public, it is owned/rented by the creche and the apartments have about 90% of the courtyard to use as the owners see fit. Sure the owners could be outside screaming while the kids are in having naps.

LaLa2004 · 14-05-2018 3:51pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

In fairness I would ask the creche nicely so to try not encourage the kids to scream .

Exactly what I said earlier.....

frag420 · 14-05-2018 3:52pm

Perhaps you could use your phone to record the staff screaming orders to the kids (audio only, don't film) you could use this as proof that they are being encouraged to be overly noisy in a residential area!

Perhaps download a decibel measurement app too, see if they are within the permitted levels of noise? Decibel X is a good app...

Fighting Tao · 14-05-2018 3:54pm

frag420 wrote: »

Perhaps you could use your phone to record the staff screaming orders to the kids (audio only, don't film) you could use this as proof that they are being encouraged to be overly noisy in a residential area!

Perhaps download a decibel measurement app too, see if they are within the permitted levels of noise? Decibel X is a good app...

What is the permitted decibel levels for children playing?

iamwhoiam · 14-05-2018 3:56pm

LaLa2004 wrote: »

Exactly what I said earlier.....

I am baffled as to why any staff encourage children to scream anyway !!

frag420 · 14-05-2018 3:59pm

Fighting Tao wrote: »

What is the permitted decibel levels for children playing?

No idea. I doubt it is specific to children playing, more so what is allowed in a residential area!

iamwhoiam · 14-05-2018 4:01pm

frag420 wrote: »

No idea. I doubt it is specific to children playing, more so what is allowed in a residential area!

Many junior schools are in residential areas so I presume they are not overly regulated ?

frag420 · 14-05-2018 4:11pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Many junior schools are in residential areas so I presume they are not overly regulated ?

I would imagine they are. However I doubt many are in a courtyard surrounded by residential apts that can echo the noise making it a lot worse for the residents!?

Gravelly · 14-05-2018 4:15pm

Yurple wrote: »

.

They also do not just go outside and play... several of the staff members open the doors and go: "CHILDREN LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOO! SCREAM CHILDREN SCREAM!!! I AM CHASING YOU!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA"

She screams this on the top of her lungs every day ... possibly to make the children tired for the rest of the rest so it is easier to manage? I am unsure. The staff members are as loud as possible and make the children run around and scream their heads off

It's a long time since I've had a child in playschool, but is this not a bit weird?!

frag420 · 14-05-2018 4:17pm

Gravelly wrote: »

It's a long time since I've had a child in playschool, but is this not a bit weird?!

Perhaps the OP should try it, they won’t be long keeping the kids indoors then!!

iamwhoiam · 14-05-2018 4:18pm

frag420 wrote: »

I would imagine they are. However I doubt many are in a courtyard surrounded by residential apts that can echo the noise making it a lot worse for the residents!?

Yes thats true . Really surprised it got permission .

We have a junior school here in the estate and gardens backing on to the yard . The noise can be incredible for a few hours a day . I very much the noise level is measured and regulated to be honest

Graces7 · 14-05-2018 5:52pm

Yurple wrote: »

Thanks for all the great replies. I will try wax ear plugs instead of the foam ones i have now.

As they warm up, and rub them between your fingers a while first, , they literally mould into your ears so block more effectively,

I had problems with piercing barking from a local dog and they cut it out almost totally.

I hope they help.

Hurrache · 14-05-2018 5:55pm

frag420 wrote: »

No idea. I doubt it is specific to children playing, more so what is allowed in a residential area!

Kids being noisey not permitted in a residential area!?!

SEPT 23 1989 · 14-05-2018 5:57pm

I could think of worst sounds than children playing

Yurple · 14-05-2018 6:13pm

The creche outdoor play area is in the courtyard and they cycle through different age groups of children throughout the day.

Blazer · 14-05-2018 6:16pm

Wait till it’s all nice and quiet in the crèche and then go outside and start roaring and screaming and see how they like it.

frag420 · 14-05-2018 6:28pm

Hurrache wrote: »

Kids being noisey not permitted in a residential area!?!

No problem if they are residents!

However if they are shipped in to a residential area as part of a commercial venture such as a crèche and are actively encouraged to be loud to the detriment of the residents then there is an issue!

pauldavis123 · 14-05-2018 6:44pm

I live next door to a large nightclub, 1500 people large, the walls actually vibrate.

Anyway download:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.relaxio.relaxio

Play the noise or combination of several noises thru a stereo, not your phone.

The first time may seem annoying but after a few goes you actually sleep better than normal!

meeeeh · 14-05-2018 6:54pm

frag420 wrote: »

No problem if they are residents!

However if they are shipped in to a residential area as part of a commercial venture such as a crèche and are actively encouraged to be loud to the detriment of the residents then there is an issue!

Creche and school in local area are actually good planning. Where else should creches be but close to people who need them? I know that in some estates building for creche was built and then rented out to whoever wishes to provide the service. However ncouraging kids to scream on top of their voice is not on. Approaching the creche and getting better ear plugs is probably op's best option.

Fighting Tao · 14-05-2018 7:01pm

I seriously doubt that the kids are encouraged to scream at the top of their voices. There have also been many purpose built crèches in apartment blocks and iand is possible that this one has planning permission granted at the same time as the apartments but took a little longer to find a company to occupy the premises. If this is a big issue in the area something would have been done after so many years. I suspect that there is a little sensationalism in the OP (told to scream etc) but I’d be quite sure that the crèche is not breaking any noise pollution laws due to it operating during normal sociable hours. The only people that can say of planning or noise laws are broken is the local council but be prepared to be told that the crèche are doing nothing wrong.

Glass fused light · 14-05-2018 7:02pm

GreeBo wrote: »

No, its like someone building a school yard outside your house unbeknownst to you. Based on what the OP is telling us, there seems like an awful lot to complain about actually. I know I would be complaining. Its an inappropriate use of public(?) space.

OP, is the play area in the courtyard or is there a separate area within the creche?

That's what the planning process is for. If the OP bought in the build stage (s)he needed to keep an eye out on what services were going in to the local environment, probably would not of helped as to th location of the crèche but may have allowed the OP to make different buy decision.

cbreeze · 14-05-2018 7:09pm

I occasionally have to share the close confines of a yacht with some champion snorers. What works for me is to put headphones on and attach to a small radio playing Lyric FM on a low volume. The small sound mostly blocks out the louder trumpeting from the fellow crew members.

Teyla Emmagan · 14-05-2018 7:35pm

My sister lived in an apartment with a courtyard for a while. The structure amplified the sound of kids outside until it actually felt like there were 32 of them sitting on the couch beside you screeching even if there were only 5 out. It was horrific IMO.

Yurple · 14-05-2018 8:22pm

This could explain why it sounds like they are screaming as loud as they possibly can... maybe the sound is being amplified due to the courtyard being completely surrounded by apartments and my bedroom is right above the creche playground.

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

My sister lived in an apartment with a courtyard for a while. The structure amplified the sound of kids outside until it actually felt like there were 32 of them sitting on the couch beside you screeching even if there were only 5 out. It was horrific IMO.

Sleeper12 · 14-05-2018 8:33pm

I can't see you getting any legal satisfaction. Creche has planning permission to operate as a creche. Creches have children. Children make noise. The planners took this into consideration during the planning process.

I think your options are what can you do for yourself. Sell, rent out the apartment, ear plugs, move room, install better soundproofing windows etc

Tigger · 14-05-2018 8:39pm

Yurple wrote: »

It is between 08:30 and 09:00 in the morning until between 17:00 and 18:00 when the children are outside in the middle of the courtyard. It is not just 30 minutes. It is the entire day, 5 days a week.

They also do not just go outside and play... several of the staff members open the doors and go: "CHILDREN LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOO! SCREAM CHILDREN SCREAM!!! I AM CHASING YOU!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA"

She screams this on the top of her lungs every day ... possibly to make the children tired for the rest of the rest so it is easier to manage? I am unsure. The staff members are as loud as possible and make the children run around and scream their heads off

This sounds awesome I’d send my kid there

wandatowell · 14-05-2018 8:46pm

Could you go ask to meet the manager of the creche, explain the situation and ask is there anything else that they could do instead of the shouting and screaming.

Eric Cartman · 14-05-2018 9:23pm

Buy a plug in timer and a really powerful PA system, have it play the most offensive rap music you can find at high volumes during those times, they'll send the kids in.

Or throw water balloons at them..... (up to you how many of them are filled with piss) :pac:

but seriously. OP try have a word with the creche, there is nothing more annoying than being near a creche / playground / school yard full of kids early in the morning, id take a nightclub any day over it.

khaldrogo · 14-05-2018 9:30pm

iamwhoiam wrote:

Its 8;30 till 9 am and allowing the preschool children out in the fresh air . What is there to complain about ?

The noise level. I thought it was fairly well explained that this was the issue and reason for the post. Did you read the OP?

_brendand_ · 14-05-2018 9:35pm

Probably the only thing to be done is to go to the manager of the creche and say 'Hi sorry to bother you, but I live in one of the apartments nearby and because I do shift work I am normally trying to sleep at 9am - I fully appreciate that the children at the creche need to be taken out at some point, but would appreciate if any accommodation could be made to have it happen later in the day, or perhaps not happen on certain days?'. Unfortunately kids are never going to be quiet even without the creche workers encouraging them to scream, so there's no point in asking them to keep the noise down, the best you can do is move it to a different time.

I'm not sure if you had an opportunity to lodge an objection to the planning application for the creche, but that would have been your opportunity there.

denismc · 14-05-2018 9:48pm

There must be some planning restrictions that prevent commercial units being used adjacent to private accommodation. I would talk to the creche operators first and explain the situation.
If they aren't being helpful then contact your local council, it seems odd that they are operating a creche in a residential building, there are restrictions on changing a residential unit to a commercial one.

From citizens advice website:
For example, you will need planning permission if you propose to:

Convert your garage into a workshop for business use

Establish a creche

Open a bed and breakfast with more than 4 guest bedrooms

Extreme noise level - creche

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