Sewer work vs fruit picking

realitykeeper · 02-11-2019 11:09am #1

In recent years, I`ve heard it said that there are certain jobs Irish people no longer want to do. These jobs then tend to go to migrant workers because they are labour intensive and the pay isn`t great. In fact, we frequently hear of migrants being paid less than the minimum wage and asked to work very long hours.

Normally, if an employer wants an employee to work long hours it is because he does not have enough employees and that is because there is not enough cheap labour (migrants) for the mushroom farm.

On the other hand, ground workers who have to work in the sewers probably get paid quite well and if it were simply a case of Irish people not wanting to do the work then those jobs would not be filled for any money.

Therefore, my guess is its all about the money and if the pay is right the Irish will do the work. This is why I am so set against the minimum wage. This may seem counter intuitive but if we had no minimum wage, the market determined pay would be less yet Irish people would be happy to do the work. Minimum pay distorts everything.

Normally I would ask am I wrong but I am right about this so no need to ask that. Instead I must why does nobody else understand this?

McMurphy · 02-11-2019 11:27am

Minimum wage is there as a safety net to prevent unscrupulous employers from exploiting their employees.

I don't get the point you're arguing anyway, you're saying that you're against the minimum wage because people will do a job if it's dangerous or dirty if the money is right?

My only response is Well Doh.

Working in a sewer v manning the till in the local Deals?

Both require unskilled workers with no qualifications, yet one is putting your life in danger by filth, disease and other hazards involved in traversing underground tunnels filled with raw sewage in pitch darkness.

I'd do the sewerage work if the money was right, high risks = high reward and it's the way of the world.

riffmongous · 02-11-2019 11:28am

It's a bit counter intuitive that you're anti immigrant but want Irish people working worse jobs for less pay. You want to force Irish people down rather than bring others up

Salary Negotiator · 02-11-2019 11:31am

realitykeeper wrote: »

Normally I would ask am I wrong but I am right about this so no need to ask that. Instead I must why does nobody else understand this?

Nah, you still need to ask. It’s the only way you’ll learn.

Anyway, I’ll answer the question you should have asked. Yes, you are wrong.

02-11-2019 11:32am

realitykeeper wrote: »

Normally I would ask am I wrong but I am right about this so no need to ask that.

You are wrong, as usual.

suicide_circus · 02-11-2019 11:34am

minimum wage is mostly a good thing.

Plumbthedepths · 02-11-2019 11:35am

Is it just me or does anyone else find the OPs username ironic?

riffmongous · 02-11-2019 11:52am

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Is it just me or does anyone else find the OPs username ironic?

It's gone well beyond the point of irony at this stage

Donald Trump · 02-11-2019 11:56am

Jesus Christ.

OP goes on about people working long hours on mushroom farms because of labour shortage due to low wages and concludes that if minimum wage was removed, and they could be paid less, that it would be better.

Go and offer your services to a mushroom farmer at the weekends OP. Tell him you don't need minimum wage and report back to us on how you are getting on.

By all means try to argue that minimum wage means some roles and jobs don't exist that might otherwise exist (I'm not saying I'm against minimum wage...just that there is a smidgin of very narrow logic to that view....which means it could be debated, but the above, I don't know where to start)

Bannasidhe · 02-11-2019 11:59am

realitykeeper wrote: »

Therefore, my guess is its all about the money and if the pay is right the Irish will do the work. This is why I am so set against the minimum wage. This may seem counter intuitive but if we had no minimum wage, the market determined pay would be less yet Irish people would be happy to do the work. Minimum pay distorts everything.

Have you considered that minimum pay is exactly what it sounds like and not an upper limit as you seem to think?

There is nothing preventing employers from paying more. Perhaps if they paid a living wage they might attract more employees ( even Irish ones :rolleyes:).

Harry Palmr · 02-11-2019 12:14pm

Fruit picking is not a great example - it's highly seasonal in nature and therefore suits people who are young and have somewhat peripatetic working lives. Immigrant harvesters can bounce from north west Europe to southern/eastern Europe depending on seasonal demands.

silverharp · 02-11-2019 12:22pm

apparently vineyards in california are more labour intensive than in Europe meaning that the European ones are more efficient. ideally the more unpleasant the work, the more it should pay more relative to a cushy job in a heated office or shop floor all things being equal, the employer will pay more if labour is scarce or innovate using technology. the lazy approach is turn a blind eye to illegal workers or encourage a grey economy where blue collar jobs are subject to having their salaries hammered by open border desire for cheap labour.

02-11-2019 1:04pm

silverharp wrote: »

apparently vineyards in california are more labour intensive than in Europe meaning that the European ones are more efficient. ideally the more unpleasant the work, the more it should pay more relative to a cushy job in a heated office or shop floor all things being equal, the employer will pay more if labour is scarce or innovate using technology. the lazy approach is turn a blind eye to illegal workers or encourage a grey economy where blue collar jobs are subject to having their salaries hammered by open border desire for cheap labour.

Saw a programme recently about illegal immigrants in California and their working and living conditions. They work hard for low pay. They live in illegal dwelling with dodgy sources of water. These dwellings were proper houses.

Then a uk program a farmer was bemoaning having to leave his apples unpicked due to lack of labour. He wasn’t willing to pay more as it wasn’t worth his while.

It seems to be a worldwide problem. The countries that turn a blind eye to the exploitation of illegal immigrants are ruining the business of others.

One eyed Jack · 02-11-2019 1:08pm

I’m seriously conflicted on this one because I remember my time picking strawberries, and it’s only now I think of the unfortunate sewer worker who had to deal with the unmerciful load I unleashed on the toilet after been eating more strawberries than I was picking in a day

high_king · 02-11-2019 1:09pm

Minimum wage is a double edged sword, yes it creates an artificial low playing field, but it also offers a little protection, in theory, against exploitation. The so called gig economy is the work around for less scrupulous employers.

Oasis1974 · 02-11-2019 1:13pm

Minimum wage is €11 something now? That's handy money for the work.

Plumbthedepths · 02-11-2019 1:14pm

Oasis1974 wrote: »

Minimum wage is €11 something now? That's handy money for the work.

9.80.

02-11-2019 1:15pm

Oasis1974 wrote: »

Minimum wage is €11 something now? That's handy money for the work.

€9.80 rising to €10.10 in May.

high_king · 02-11-2019 1:15pm

Oasis1974 wrote: »

Minimum wage is €11 something now? That's handy money now.

handy for what ? raising a family on and ever owning a small roof above your head and a small patch of ground beneath your feet ? . . . you must be joking . . and wtf are you getting the €11 from in this detached reality ?

Oasis1974 · 02-11-2019 1:16pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

9.80.

Minimum wage is €9.80 now? That's handy money for the work lol.

high_king · 02-11-2019 1:17pm

Oasis1974 wrote: »

Minimum wage is €9.80 now? That's handy money for the work lol.

ever had a real job ?

Plumbthedepths · 02-11-2019 1:21pm

Oasis1974 wrote: »

Minimum wage is €9.80 now? That's handy money for the work lol.

If you think so, I believe there are lots of vacancies. You should have no problem getting a job.

Oasis1974 · 02-11-2019 1:23pm

But all these people who worked those wages probably do 60/70 hours a week handy money that?

4068ac1elhodqr · 02-11-2019 1:23pm

Min wage is very useful to prevent exploitation, even the growing army of gig-ers are getting new forms of employment protection as they increase e.g. holidays and so on.

The simple elementary soloution to someone not doing x, because of (P) cash-money, is to pay more to increase the supply (Q)
The basic law of price-supply-demand.

The 'keeper of reality' should be more worried about what the great unskilled will do with themselves
- when automation snatches roughly 44% of their typical roles from their hands, as we head towards the 2030s.

Plumbthedepths · 02-11-2019 1:28pm

Oasis1974 wrote: »

But all these people who worked those wages probably do 60/70 hours a week handy money that?

You on a windup lad, like the OP?

high_king · 02-11-2019 1:29pm

Houston Tender Goose wrote: »

- when automation snatches roughly 44% of their typical roles from their hands, as we head towards the 2030s.

We've been through forms of automation many times before, from industrialisation to computerisation. Work doesn't disappear it evolves.

4068ac1elhodqr · 02-11-2019 2:43pm

high_king wrote: »

Hysteria from the usual sensationalist media.

Usual dismissal from the ignorant masses, harking back to 'ah sure look back in ye olden times, was grand'.
Also, this is from various global studies and think-tanks.
It's not a guesstimate by some dude at a desk, for some red-top media outlet, looking for clicks and page lifts

high_king wrote: »

We've been through forms of [ *different* ] automation many times before, from industrialisation to computerisation. Work doesn't disappear it evolves.

*This next evoloution competes more directly with human mind, a self-learning, ever-improving, thinking type of ai-robotic automation.

Sure, most studies show 'some' new roles will be created (only for the very highly skilled), but there is less certainty surrounding this, compared to the more certain expected job lossses.

Thus, UBI and further credits will have to introduced along with increases in min wage for the reduced hours available. The OPs question of 'sewers vs picking' will become largely irrelevant.

high_king · 02-11-2019 2:50pm

Houston Tender Goose wrote: »

Usual dismissal from the ignorant masses, harking back to 'ah sure look back in ye olden times, was grand'.
Also, this is from various global studies and think-tanks.
It's not a guesstimate by some dude at a desk, for some red-top media outlet, looking for clicks and page lifts

*This next evoloution competes more directly with human mind, a self-learning, ever-improving, thinking type of ai-robotic automation.

Sure, most studies show 'some' new roles will be created (only for the very highly skilled), but there is less certainty surrounding this, compared to the more certain expected job lossses.

Thus, UBI and further credits will have to introduced along with increases in min wage for the reduced hours available. The OPs question of 'sewers vs picking' will become largely irrelevant.

lol . . . you can pretend what was posted instead of what was . . but you will find other people are not as ignorant as you like to think.

The simple fact is humanity in recent centuries has been through various forms of automation many times before, from industrialisation to computerisation. Work doesn't disappear it evolves.

02-11-2019 2:57pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

In recent years, I`ve heard it said that there are certain jobs Irish people no longer want to do. These jobs then tend to go to migrant workers because they are labour intensive and the pay isn`t great. In fact, we frequently hear of migrants being paid less than the minimum wage and asked to work very

You have set the whole thing up with these assertions and then continued on without questioning them.
Where is your proof Irish people don't want these jobs. Where is you proof of migrants being frequently paid less than the minimum wage.

The main point where your thesis falls down OP is that our unemployment rate is relatively low OP. If employers are struggling to recruit it is because their prospective employees have better (better paid, better hours, easier work, closer to home or whatever people consider better) opportunities elsewhere, not because there are forced to pay too much.

shesty · 02-11-2019 2:58pm

There are a lot of veg pickers round us.Honestly I always think its a very hard job....they do very long hours, although these may be somewhat dependent on the time of year.You see teams of them bent double in fields picking whatever the crop is...scallions, cabbages, onion, potatoes, leeks come to mind.There are days when I'd say they are up to their knees in muck, in oilskins (basically) with the rain battering down on them and the wind storming in straight off the sea and they'd still be there if it was the right part of the year....you see then when you're driving past.I remember one particularly large field of scallions I drove past daily last year and there was a team of them clearing the field, must have gone on for weeks....I remember thinking it must be a bit soul destroying.Personally I hope they are paid a bit better than just minimum wage, because I would not be lining up to do that it'a a tough job.Then once it's all picked it's the packaging and then the planting of the next crop.

It's marginally better than sewers but not by much.And definitely not in the climate that we have.

Thelonious Monk · 02-11-2019 3:15pm

I worked jobs picking avocados and kiwis in the past, back breaking stuff! It must be a tough one for the loony right wingers on here as they don't like cheap imported unskilled labour but upping the minimum wage goes against their beliefs too.

high_king · 02-11-2019 3:22pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I worked jobs picking avocados and kiwis in the past, back breaking stuff! It must be a tough one for the loony right wingers on here as they don't like cheap imported unskilled labour but upping the minimum wage goes against their beliefs too.

actually both the left and right dictators love cheap imported unskilled labour

kowloon · 02-11-2019 8:29pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

If you think so, I believe there are lots of vacancies. You should have no problem getting a job.

I'd hazard a guess they value themselves much more highly than the minimum wage. Minimum wage is for people beneath them.

realitykeeper · 02-11-2019 11:40pm

riffmongous wrote: »

It's a bit counter intuitive that you're anti immigrant but want Irish people working worse jobs for less pay. You want to force Irish people down rather than bring others up

Wrong on at least two counts. I am not anti immigrant. One of the distorting impacts of the minimum wage here is it makes goods from China for example more expensive to people from Nigeria for example. This is because our artificially high purchasing power is caused by the minimum wage at least for now. It also makes our employment black markets lucrative to migrants. The migrants would prefer if we did not price them out of international markets and ideally they would prefer to stay in their own countries. Such matters are of course of no interest to people who only pretend to be concerned about the welfare of migrants.

realitykeeper · 02-11-2019 11:46pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

OP goes on about people working long hours on mushroom farms because of labour shortage due to low wages and concludes that if minimum wage was removed, and they could be paid less, that it would be better.

Go and offer your services to a mushroom farmer at the weekends OP. Tell him you don't need minimum wage and report back to us on how you are getting on.

By all means try to argue that minimum wage means some roles and jobs don't exist that might otherwise exist (I'm not saying I'm against minimum wage...just that there is a smidgin of very narrow logic to that view....which means it could be debated, but the above, I don't know where to start)

I removed the blasphemy at the beginning of your post and reported you for it. As for the rest of your post, I declined to read it. No more blasphemy please!

Salary Negotiator · 02-11-2019 11:47pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

I removed the blasphemy at the beginning of your post and reported you for it. As for the rest of your post, I declined to read it. No more blasphemy please!

You reported him for blasphemy? Christ on a bike that’s pathetic.

realitykeeper · 02-11-2019 11:55pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Have you considered that minimum pay is exactly what it sounds like and not an upper limit as you seem to think?

There is nothing preventing employers from paying more. Perhaps if they paid a living wage they might attract more employees ( even Irish ones :rolleyes:).

The real minimum pay is the market rate. Because the market rate is below the minimum wage for many enterprises, those businesses cannot exist. Without a minimum wage, Irish people would find the market pay rate an acceptable living wage and I know this because I know they would do the work if the minimum wage was abolished.

high_king · 02-11-2019 11:56pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

The real minimum pay is the market rate. Because the market rate is below the minimum wage for many enterprises, those businesses cannot exist. Without a minimum wage, Irish people would find the market pay rate an acceptable living wage and I know this because I know they would do the work if the minimum wage was abolished.

Maybe its time you stopped advocating for the exploitation of workers

LoughNeagh2017 · 03-11-2019 12:01am

It is funny how people always say that the Irish/British don't want to do low paid jobs, if that is so then how did the work get done pre 2004? Who worked in the factories and warehouses, local people did and they had a better wage than they do now. In the 80s and 90s low paid men were able to build big rural bungalows like what my father did, a low paid worker couldn't do that now.

As I've said before, work is the root cause of my future suicide, slaving away for £260 a week and causing your body serious damage in the process, no pass me the rope. People will just say "get a better job", if you are an autistic, average IQ man with anxiety issues you have no option but to do the lowest level jobs.

Victor · 03-11-2019 12:03am

realitykeeper wrote: »

On the other hand, ground workers who have to work in the sewers probably get paid quite well and if it were simply a case of Irish people not wanting to do the work then those jobs would not be filled for any money.

For safety reasons, exceptionally few people work in sewers. People won't fit in 95% of sewers and the systems are designed with minimum maintenance requirements and even at that, most of the work is done by machine or is at manholes.

realitykeeper · 03-11-2019 12:09am

Deleted User wrote: »

€9.80 rising to €10.10 in May.

But if everyone on minimum wage gets the pay rise the increase in purchasing power is minimized and if everyone on higher salaries ultimately get a pay rise by a similar differential, then in real terms, those on the minimum wage will end up being worse off because of it.

By the way, this is just another symptom of easy money from the ECB, a policy which will be inflationary eventually.

realitykeeper · 03-11-2019 12:17am

Houston Tender Goose wrote: »

The 'keeper of reality' should be more worried about what the great unskilled will do with themselves
- when automation snatches roughly 44% of their typical roles from their hands, as we head towards the 2030s.

If an employer is told he must pay an employee more than they are worth, then he can either operate at a loss, or get rid of the employee and scale back production or automate production. In very small businesses, getting rid of the employee is more likely but for large businesses, automation or plant closure are more likely.

realitykeeper · 03-11-2019 12:22am

Deleted User wrote: »

You have set the whole thing up with these assertions and then continued on without questioning them.
Where is your proof Irish people don't want these jobs. Where is you proof of migrants being frequently paid less than the minimum wage.

The main point where your thesis falls down OP is that our unemployment rate is relatively low OP. If employers are struggling to recruit it is because their prospective employees have better (better paid, better hours, easier work, closer to home or whatever people consider better) opportunities elsewhere, not because there are forced to pay too much.

I suggest you go back and read the post again. I do not need to prove Irish people don`t want to do certain jobs because what I said was that I heard it said that Irish people don`t want to do certain jobs and then I poured cold water on that theory.

realitykeeper · 03-11-2019 12:34am

high_king wrote: »

Maybe its time you stopped advocating for the exploitation of workers

Do you realize if Ireland turns Communist, they won`t let us leave. Everyone in the country will effectively be a prisoner and a slave. Mind you, they will not be calling Communism Communism because it is a discredited ideology but whatever they call it, that is what it will be.

Freedom means respecting market forces. The minimum wage and other anti free market policies will enslave us.

ILoveYourVibes · 03-11-2019 12:36am

My cousin worked for dyna rod is it called? he said it was hilarious.

high_king · 03-11-2019 12:37am

realitykeeper wrote: »

Do you realize if Ireland turns Communist, they won`t let us leave. Everyone in the country will effectively be a prisoner and a slave. Mind you, they will not be calling Communism Communism because it is a discredited ideology but whatever they call it, that is what it will be.

Freedom means respecting market forces. The minimum wage and other anti free market policies will enslave us.

keep taking the pills

BDI · 03-11-2019 12:39am

Sewer workers are very skilled. Mad thread altogether

realitykeeper · 03-11-2019 10:58am

BDI wrote: »

Sewer workers are very skilled. Mad thread altogether

Nobody said otherwise. They are engineers in subterranean sanitation. But, my point is they still work with smelly slop and picking flowers might be nicer and so it is not true to say Irish people don`t want to do certain jobs. It is the minimum wage that causes Irish people to avoid private sector jobs that cannot pay the legal requirement. Obviously the dole helps them in this decision but if the minimum wage was lowered progressively over time to zero, then more and more non viable enterprises would become viable, not only to employers but to workers.

Plumbthedepths · 03-11-2019 11:13am

realitykeeper wrote: »

Nobody said otherwise. They are engineers in subterranean sanitation. But, my point is they still work with smelly slop and picking flowers might be nicer and so it is not true to say Irish people don`t want to do certain jobs. It is the minimum wage that causes Irish people to avoid private sector jobs that cannot pay the legal requirement. Obviously the dole helps them in this decision but if the minimum wage was lowered progressively over time to zero, then more and more non viable enterprises would become viable, not only to employers but to workers.

Do you actually believe the stupidity contained in the above?

BDI · 03-11-2019 2:57pm

Are you saying you want to starve people into doing manual labour for farmers for cheaper. The benefits or unique selling point of this scheme will be stopping the foreigners coming in?

Are you a farmer that is fed up risking a fine because your foreign workers are being paid below minimum wage

Or

Are you a farmer who hates employing foreigners and would like to hire Irish people for below minimum wage?

joseywhales · 03-11-2019 4:16pm

Wait maybe we are not all working toward the same goal here.

The goal of government is to provide the people it represents with the highest collective standard of living possible.

That's what I believe should be legislated for. Can you explain how lowering minimum wage will help to achieve this?

Sewer work vs fruit picking

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