Deirim or Deareann me?

quenching · 25-07-2018 4:53pm #1

Can anyone advise on the following irregular verbs please:

Deirim or Deireann mé

Deirimid or Deireann muid

Dúramar or Dúirt muid

Or are both forms acceptable?

There are similar in all the irregular verbs but I presume they all follow similar “rules”

David Webb · 25-07-2018 5:50pm

It depends what dialect you're learning. If the native speakers you're emulating say one thing, it's best to stick with it.

But deirimid and dúramar are not said in any part of the Gaeltacht. The correct forms are deirimíd and dúramair.

To resolve this for yourself, you need to decide what dialect you're learning.

quenching · 25-07-2018 6:18pm

David Webb wrote: »

It depends what dialect you're learning. If the native speakers you're emulating say one thing, it's best to stick with it.

But deirimid and dúramar are not said in any part of the Gaeltacht. The correct forms are deirimíd and dúramair.

To resolve this for yourself, you need to decide what dialect you're learning.

Thanks David, I should have specified it’s 1st year Junior Cycle, Dublin if relevant, so I’m not sure which dialect they use! And I’m getting conflicting opinions from several sources.

David Webb · 25-07-2018 7:44pm

If it's "Standard Irish" - a made-up thing not spoken by native speakers - then you could look at https://www.teanglann.ie/en/gram/abair

quenching · 25-07-2018 9:15pm

David Webb wrote: »

If it's "Standard Irish" - a made-up thing not spoken by native speakers - then you could look at https://www.teanglann.ie/en/gram/abair

Thanks for that, it also has a handy phone app, as favoured by teenagers!

David Webb · 25-07-2018 10:19pm

Quenching, you can also listen to the pronunciation of most words on that site - and you can choose Munster, Connacht or Ulster pronunciation. You can get the audio pronunciations on your phone too.

boardise · 14-08-2018 1:00pm

test

DickSwiveller Returns · 14-08-2018 3:15pm

quenching wrote: »

Can anyone advise on the following irregular verbs please:

Deirim or Deireann mé

Deirimid or Deireann muid

Dúramar or Dúirt muid

Or are both forms acceptable?

There are similar in all the irregular verbs but I presume they all follow similar “rules”

Quenching, you need to distuingish between An caighdeán oifigiúil and canúint (dialect). Canúint is ok when speaking but when writing you use the caighdeán oifigiúil. In the examples above Deirim,deirimid and dúramar are all caighdeán oifigiúil. The others are canúint.

David Webb · 14-08-2018 7:01pm

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

Quenching, you need to distuingish between An caighdeán oifigiúil and canúint (dialect). Canúint is ok when speaking but when writing you use the caighdeán oifigiúil. In the examples above Deirim,deirimid and dúramar are all caighdeán oifigiúil. The others are canúint.

Er... no. Why do you have to use the Caighdeán Oifigiúil when you are writing? It is just a made-up thing poorly grounded in an teanga bheó.

If there aren't any native speakers who use a form, why would you make it "standard"? Tell me which native speakers in which Gaelthacht you have heard saying dúramar. I believe that form may have been used in some areas of Co. Clare when Irish was vibrant there. But in general the CO is a highly unsatisfactory mish-mash that is not accepted by native speakers as being good Irish.

These are correct:

Present
deirim
deireann tú
deireann sé
deirimíd
deireann sibh
deirid siad

Past
duart
dúraís
duairt sé
dúramair
dúrúir
dúradar

Future
déarfad
déarfair
déarfaidh sé
déarfaimíd
déarfaibh sibh
déarfaid siad

Conditional
déarfainn
déarfá
déarfadh sé
déarfaimís
déarfadh sibh
déarfaidís

Past habitual
deirinn
deirthá
deireadh sé
deirimís
deireadh sibh
deiridís

We are getting into a situation where if the Irish government announced that "childs" was the plural of "child" in Irish English from now on, to make things simpler, DickSwiveller would claim that was the only correct form, despite the fact that all native speakers of English know the form to be "children". An teanga bheó is the only correct Irish, as in all languages the forms used by native speakers, which have centuries of history behind them, have to be correct.

DickSwiveller Returns · 14-08-2018 7:08pm

David Webb wrote: »

Er... no. Why do you have to use the Caighdeán Oifigiúil when you are writing? It is just a made-up thing poorly grounded in an teanga bheó.

If there aren't any native speakers who use a form, why would you make it "standard"? Tell me which native speakers in which Gaelthacht you have heard saying dúramar. I believe that form may have been used in some areas of Co. Clare when Irish was vibrant there. But in general the CO is a highly unsatisfactory mish-mash that is not accepted by native speakers as being good Irish.

These are correct:

Present
deirim
deireann tú
deireann sé
deirimíd
deireann sibh
deirid siad

Past
duart
dúraís
duairt sé
dúramair
dúrúir
dúradar

Future
déarfad
déarfair
déarfaidh sé
déarfaimíd
déarfaibh sibh
déarfaid siad

Conditional
déarfainn
déarfá
déarfadh sé
déarfaimís
déarfadh sibh
déarfaidís

Past habitual
deirinn
deirthá
deireadh sé
deirimís
deireadh sibh
deiridís

We are getting into a situation where if the Irish government announced that "childs" was the plural of "child" in Irish English from now on, to make things simpler, DickSwiveller would claim that was the only correct form, despite the fact that all native speakers of English know the form to be "children". An teanga bheó is the only correct Irish, as in all languages the forms used by native speakers, which have centuries of history behind them, have to be correct.

Native speakers are a category of their own and in the Gaeltachtaí you find the well of the Irish language (Tobar na Gaeilge). However, standard Irish is now taught to all school children throughout the country, so as to simplify the language for them. Remember, the vast majority of children learning Irish in the State do not live in the Gaeltacht and are therefore not listening to native speakers every day. It would be great if they were but in reality they are not. Therefore the caighdeán oifigiúil makes sense. It's a poor substitute for the pure language.

byhookorbycrook · 14-08-2018 7:13pm

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

Native speakers are a category of their own and in the Gaeltachtaí you find the well of the Irish language (Tobar na Gaeilge). However, standard Irish is now taught to all school children throughout the country, so as to simplify the language for them. Remember, the vast majority of children learning Irish in the State do not live in the Gaeltacht and are therefore not listening to native speakers every day. It would be great if they were but in reality they are not. Therefore the caighdeán oifigiúil makes sense. It's a poor substitute for the real language.

Errm, no it's not. In primary , we use the teacher's canúint, so in ours we have Connacht, Munster (and within in that Cork and Kerry, no Ring peeps though) and Northern. In secondary, students have to be able to listen and respond to various canúint.

David Webb · 14-08-2018 7:14pm

No, native speakers are not a category of their own. If you're learning French, you aim to learn it as French people speak it, right? There is no point learning Irish if you feel such contempt for native speakers of the language.

Níl an ceart agat, a DS. Ní catagóir fé leith na cainnteóirí dúchais! Dá mb'í an Fhrainncís a bheadh á foghlaim agat, do dhéanfá do dhícheall í dh'fhoghlaim go díreach mar a labhraid na Franncaigh í, nách ea? Má tá oiread san mímheas agat ar chainnteóirí dúchais na Gaelainne, cad é mar obair duit í dh'fhoghlaim in ao' chor?

DickSwiveller Returns · 14-08-2018 7:23pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Errm, no it's not. In primary , we use the teacher's canúint, so in ours we have Connacht, Munster (and within in that Cork and Kerry, no Ring peeps though) and Northern. In secondary, students have to be able to listen and respond to various canúint.

In schools you have teachers with different canúints but the point I'm making is that when they're writing in Irish they are told to use an caighdeán oifigiúil. Dúras is the canúint, dúirt mé is the caighdeán. Children use the caighdeán when writing

DickSwiveller Returns · 14-08-2018 7:23pm

They are trying to standardise the writing of the language so as to make it simpler.

Mar sin, bíonn an caighdeán in úsáid sna scoileanna

David Webb · 14-08-2018 7:38pm

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

In schools you have teachers with different canúints but the point I'm making is that when they're writing in Irish they are told to use an caighdeán oifigiúil. Dúras is the canúint, dúirt mé is the caighdeán. Children use the caighdeán when writing

The teachers have no right to tell the children to use a caighdeán made up by learners in Dublin.

Insect Overlord · 14-08-2018 8:11pm

To be fair, the official standard is a handy catch-all for State Exams and third level exams. And the French comparison might not be a great one, considering how they've damaged their regional dialects and langues d"oïl over the years as well! But I do disagree with learners getting punished for using their canúint of choice in written exams.

Some of it, I suppose, can be justified by critique of the register of language. Something can be perfectly acceptable in colloquial conversation, or on social media, or in prose, but may still be considered crude or vulgar or inappropriate in other scenarios.

David Webb · 14-08-2018 8:24pm

No, Insect Overlord, a handy catch-all for exams could have picked a real Gaelthacht dialect. In fact Cork Irish was regarded as prestige dialect until the CO was brought in - and James Dillon leader of FG protested in the Dáil at the idea of the devising of a so-called standard by a handful of people that wasn't linked to what was considered good Irish in the Gaelthacht. Right from the beginning this was viewed as wrong.

It is certainly not that an teanga bheó is crude and vulgar - and some made-up thing made up by LEARNERS in DUBLIN is "high-style Irish". The CO is just plain wrong. Read the words of Peadar Ua Laoghaire and point to me the crudity and the vulgarity. Right from the beginning an arrogant bunch of learners have sought to take control of the language and they brutally kicked the language's native speakers to one side.

As Peadar Ua Laoghaire wrote in 1915:

People who never heard a word of Irish spoken go and learn a little Irish, and then, the moment they think they understand a little of the language, they proceed to explain all about it to those who have been speaking it all their lives. They would not dare to do that with regard to French, or with regard to any other language which was foreign to them. It is a sad thing to see the Irish language at the mercy of such people.

At this point, the Irish language movement should be seen for what they are - anti-Irish.

Insect Overlord · 14-08-2018 8:27pm

Why should Cork Irish have been imposed on learners in Waterford or Conamara or Donegal, any more than the Caighdeán Oifigiúil? We'd still be having the same arguments today, but maybe with one or two happier counties.

David Webb · 14-08-2018 8:30pm

Cork Irish is closer than any other Irish to the Irish of the poetry of the 17th and 18th centuries, but now, with few speakers in Cork, it would be hard to install as a standard. They ought to pick Conemara Irish, exactly as it is spoken, as the standard and as the largest dialect, and write that.

David Webb · 14-08-2018 8:33pm

The hatred of the Gaelthacht is pronounced in the Irish learning community - because they resent the greater proficiency of the Gaelthacht. I was told on the Acmhainn mailing list (ultimately part of Foras na G) by one person:

Ní ghéillim don tuairim nach bhfuil focal ná nath Gaeilge bailí murar chualathas é i bportach nó ar chladach.

These guys are openly contemptuous of the Gaelthacht natives - not even disguising their view that they are just "boggers" and so they won't accept their Irish.

DickSwiveller Returns · 14-08-2018 8:35pm

David Webb wrote: »

No, Insect Overlord, a handy catch-all for exams could have picked a real Gaelthacht dialect. In fact Cork Irish was regarded as prestige dialect until the CO was brought in - and James Dillon leader of FG protested in the Dáil at the idea of the devising of a so-called standard by a handful of people that wasn't linked to what was considered good Irish in the Gaelthacht. Right from the beginning this was viewed as wrong.

It is certainly not that an teanga bheó is crude and vulgar - and some made-up thing made up by LEARNERS in DUBLIN is "high-style Irish". The CO is just plain wrong. Read the words of Peadar Ua Laoghaire and point to me the crudity and the vulgarity. Right from the beginning an arrogant bunch of learners have sought to take control of the language and they brutally kicked the language's native speakers to one side.

As Peadar Ua Laoghaire wrote in 1915:

At this point, the Irish language movement should be seen for what they are - anti-Irish.

Aontaím go huile is go hiomlán leat. Tá Gaeilge dhúchasach na Gaeltachta níos saibhre, níos deise agus i bhfad níos fearr ná Gaeilge nua na caithrach. Ach, cén fáth gur tháinig an caighdeán ar an saol? Mar bhí lucht na gaeilge taobh amuigh des na gaeltachtaí mí-shásta leis an éagsúlacht go léir i dtaobh na gaeilge de ar fud na tíre.

David Webb · 14-08-2018 8:43pm

Tá an ceart agat, a DS -- nílid na canúintí beó róchóngarach dá chéile, agus b'fhéidir go raibh a lán diospóireachta i gcónaí i measc na n-aistritheóirí i dtaobh cad iad na fuirmeacha is cirte agus cad ab iad na haistriúcháin is feárr le húsáid go mór mór in obair aistriúcháin an Oireachtais. Agus nuair a thugas freagra don phostaer bunaidh (the OP) do thugas fé ndeara ná raibh aon tsuím aige in sna canúintíbh agus gur dóichí gur scoláire é agus ceist aige a chur anso ar an gCaighdéan, agus mar sin do sheólas é chun Teanglann (suíomh go bhfuil na fuirmeacha 'caighdeanacha' mar dhea ann, agus mar sin na fuirmeacha is oiriúnaí dho).

Imreoir2 · 16-08-2018 8:34pm

The most tiresom thing in the world is a learner s***ing on other learners and using native speakers to justify their opinions.

I know loads of learners of Irish and I work in the Gaeltacht. I have never come accross any antagonism between both groups in real life. People from the Gaeltacht, in my experiance, have little dificulty with standardised Irish and recognise it as being a useful medium for official texts.

The only concern I have ever encountered in the Gaeltacht is that the local dialect should be accepted as equally valid in exams.

tayto lover · 16-08-2018 8:47pm

I am in my 60's and I am going to try and learn a bit of Irish to the point that I might be able to hold a simple conversation. My Irish is very poor and while I loved it in Primary school a new teacher arrived and beat the love of it out of us. This was in the late 50's when they could do that.
I struggled with the tenses but had quite a lot of words.
I would love to give it another go now that I'm retired.

Could anyone recommend a simple book that would help me?
Thanks.

David Webb · 16-08-2018 9:20pm

tayto lover wrote: »

I am in my 60's and I am going to try and learn a bit of Irish to the point that I might be able to hold a simple conversation. My Irish is very poor and while I loved it in Primary school a new teacher arrived and beat the love of it out of us. This was in the late 50's when they could do that.
I struggled with the tenses but had quite a lot of words.
I would love to give it another go now that I'm retired.

Could anyone recommend a simple book that would help me?
Thanks.

I would recommend Myles Dillon's Teach Yourself Irish, 1961 version, and then to start on a real work, Peadar Ua Laoghaire's Aesop a Tháinig go hÉirinn - Aesop's fables, which are all short and easy.

David Webb · 16-08-2018 9:23pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

The most tiresom thing in the world is a learner s***ing on other learners and using native speakers to justify their opinions.

I know loads of learners of Irish and I work in the Gaeltacht. I have never come accross any antagonism between both groups in real life. People from the Gaeltacht, in my experiance, have little dificulty with standardised Irish and recognise it as being a useful medium for official texts.

The only concern I have ever encountered in the Gaeltacht is that the local dialect should be accepted as equally valid in exams.

Imreóir2, it may depend on the Gaeltacht. Which Gaeltacht do you work in? Maybe in Conemara they view the CO as closest to Galway Irish and so they're happy with it? I've been told by numerous people in Muskerry that the CO is rubbish - and that they spoilt the language when they brought in an artificial standard. Clearly there is a range of view on this even in the Gaeltacht itself. And no - real Irish is not accepted in exams. And not a sentence of the local dialect is on the school curriculum in the Gaeltacht.

DickSwiveller Returns · 16-08-2018 9:26pm

tayto lover wrote: »

I am in my 60's and I am going to try and learn a bit of Irish to the point that I might be able to hold a simple conversation. My Irish is very poor and while I loved it in Primary school a new teacher arrived and beat the love of it out of us. This was in the late 50's when they could do that.
I struggled with the tenses but had quite a lot of words.
I would love to give it another go now that I'm retired.

Could anyone recommend a simple book that would help me?
Thanks.

Taytolover, are you based in Dublin?

tayto lover · 16-08-2018 9:28pm

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

Taytolover, are you based in Dublin?

N. Louth.

DickSwiveller Returns · 16-08-2018 9:30pm

tayto lover wrote: »

N. Louth.

Ah, right. You should see if there are maidin caifés on in your town/village. They have been springing up all over the country. Basically, a group of people meet in a cafe and converse in Irish. My father attends one every day in different parts of Dublin and many of the people who attend are beginners. My dad also teaches a class for beginners in St Enda's Park in Rathfarnham - Pádraig Pearse's old haunt.

Imreoir2 · 16-08-2018 9:31pm

David Webb wrote: »

real Irish is not accepted in exams. And not a sentence of the local dialect is on the school curriculum in the Gaeltacht.

If schools in your area are not doing this, then it should be brought up with the bord of managment. It is certainly addressed in the schools where I work.

I know that local dialects are accepted in exams at third level, and it is my understanding that it is accepted for the leaving cert.

Have you heard of the Polasaí Oideachais Gaeltachta? Saibhrú Teanga is going to be an important part of the school system.

tayto lover · 16-08-2018 9:33pm

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

Ah, right. You should see if there are maidin caifés on in your town/village. They have been springing up all over the country. Basically, a group of people meet in a cafe and converse in Irish. My father attends one every day in different parts of Dublin and many of the people who attend are beginners. My dad also teaches a class for beginners in St Enda's Park in Rathfarnham - Pádraig Pearse's old haunt.

Thank you, I'll check that out and buy a few books to help me along.

DickSwiveller Returns · 16-08-2018 9:37pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Thank you, I'll check that out and buy a few books to help me along.

I just asked my dad - he was a teacher in the Gaelscoil in Ballymun for years until he retired- and he said a good book for beginners is progress in Irish by Máire Ní Ghráda.

David Webb · 16-08-2018 9:38pm

You could also buy the Turas Teanga book which is quite easy an comes with DVDs.

Gumbi · 17-08-2018 6:25pm

In my experience, teachers have been amenable to the use of dialectal language (vs the standard) in writing. Now, I wouldn't have a particularly rich dialectal vocabulary or use of verbs, but from time to time I'd say things like "ar an dtalamh" "do bhíodh teach ag..." "dheineas" etc. and I'd get away with it, but I imagine some teachers wouldn't be familiar with them all and might penalise them. I was quite lucky with my Irish teachers, frankly, going to a quality Gaelscoil made up mostly of native speakers (and being quite far from a Gaeltacht...) and other high quality speakers, and having a good teacher in secondary with immersive experience in a Gaeltacht.

David Webb · 17-08-2018 10:20pm

Gumbi wrote: »

In my experience, teachers have been amenable to the use of dialectal language (vs the standard) in writing. Now, I wouldn't have a particularly rich dialectal vocabulary or use of verbs, but from time to time I'd say things like "ar an dtalamh" "do bhíodh teach ag..." "dheineas" etc. and I'd get away with it, but I imagine some teachers wouldn't be familiar with them all and might penalise them. I was quite lucky with my Irish teachers, frankly, going to a quality Gaelscoil made up mostly of native speakers (and being quite far from a Gaeltacht...) and other high quality speakers, and having a good teacher in secondary with immersive experience in a Gaeltacht.

Gumbi, can you clear up authoritatively whether forms like dheineas are accepted in the Irish Junior and Higher Leaving Certificates? And how many works by Peadar Ua Laogaire, Tomás Ó Criomhthain, Peig Sayers, Máirtín Ó Caidhin, and the Grianna brothers did you read through in class in your Gaelscoil? It's not meant to be a trick question - I just want to know yes or no, if any of these were on your curriculum.

Gumbi · 18-08-2018 5:24pm

David Webb wrote: »

Gumbi, can you clear up authoritatively whether forms like dheineas are accepted in the Irish Junior and Higher Leaving Certificates? And how many works by Peadar Ua Laogaire, Tomás Ó Criomhthain, Peig Sayers, Máirtín Ó Caidhin, and the Grianna brothers did you read through in class in your Gaelscoil? It's not meant to be a trick question - I just want to know yes or no, if any of these were on your curriculum.

I am not aware of the official word on this (if there even is one).

None of those books on the curriculum for primary school students as far as I know, but we did read Séadna in fourth class. As for the Junior/Leaving Cert, I didn't go to a Gaelscoil, so I just did whatever the curriculum was.

David Webb · 18-08-2018 5:26pm

Well, Séadna is at least something, but unless you read a seanachló edition, you won't have got a 100% genuine edition.

Achasanai · 18-08-2018 8:49pm

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

I just asked my dad - he was a teacher in the Gaelscoil in Ballymun for years until he retired- and he said a good book for beginners is progress in Irish by Máire Ní Ghráda.

I'm working through this at the moment, and I really like it. It feels like a very gradual, and slow introduction to the language, but it actually moves very fast. The only problem with it is that it doesn't come with an audio or answers. If the person goes with this book, these links are a godsend for those of us with a very low level of Irish:

http://www.gaeilge.org/PII-ak.html (answers)

http://www.philo-celtic.com/PII/Progress.htm (audio)

deirdremf · 04-09-2018 2:33pm

David Webb wrote: »

Well, Séadna is at least something, but unless you read a seanachló edition, you won't have got a 100% genuine edition.

This kind of holier-than-thou comment is the sort of thing that turns people off Irish. (or anything else for that matter).

If that is your intention, go ahead.

Otherwise try to encourage people to speak/read/write what they can, and they will improve.

Carawaystick · 27-10-2018 12:45am

David Webb wrote: »

No, Insect Overlord, a handy catch-all for exams could have picked a real Gaelthacht dialect. In fact Cork Irish was regarded as prestige dialect until the CO was brought in - and James Dillon leader of FG protested in the Dáil at the idea of the devising of a so-called standard by a handful of people that wasn't linked to what was considered good Irish in the Gaelthacht. Right from the beginning this was viewed as wrong.

It is certainly not that an teanga bheó is crude and vulgar - and some made-up thing made up by LEARNERS in DUBLIN is "high-style Irish". The CO is just plain wrong. Read the words of Peadar Ua Laoghaire and point to me the crudity and the vulgarity. Right from the beginning an arrogant bunch of learners have sought to take control of the language and they brutally kicked the language's native speakers to one side.

...

At this point, the Irish language movement should be seen for what they are - anti-Irish.

Considering the OP asked about first years at secondary school, its reasonable to assume that for written examples the CO is a reasonable standard to use, no more than expecting a first year student to write not in hiberno english or local dialect, but in standard british english

I couldnt see a strong argument for using yisser/youse/ye/y'all instead of you(pl) while writing a formal english exam
But its obvious not having a different form of the 2nd person pural, is a huge weakness in mouth speak.

Deirim or Deareann me?

Comments