Where is/ was 56 Harcourt Street?

Hermy · 11-11-2011 12:34am #1

Hi all, I'm went into town today hoping to take a photo of 56 Harcourt Street, the house where my great grandmother would have lived in the early 1900's. However, it appears to have been stolen...
Well not stolen but I'm not sure what's happened to it to be honest. In the photo below Cafe Sol, the last door before the junction with Hatch Street is 57 so I'm wondering was 56 next to this and demolished or was it further up past the station building. Any help or even better, an old photo, would be fantastic. Thanks:)

listermint · 11-11-2011 12:39am

Might be of interest to you.

http://www.dublin.ie/forums/showthread.php?11186-Charlemont-Street-HArcourt-Street-1800-s

HugoBradyBrown · 11-11-2011 12:41am

Hermy wrote: »

Hi all, I'm went into town today hoping to take a photo of 56 Harcourt Street, the house where my great grandmother would have lived in the early 1900's. However, it appears to have been stolen...
Well not stolen but I'm not sure what's happened to it to be honest. In the photo below Cafe Sol, the last door before the junction with Hatch Street is 57 so I'm wonderig was 56 next to this and demolished or was it further up past the station building. Any help or even better, an old photo, would be fantastic. Thanks:)
]

All of Cuffe Street's remaining historic buildings were demolished in a fairly short period in the 1960's and 70's. A particularly appalling FF minister named Kevin Boland opined that such houses were a blight on the city and that they were the legacy of what he contemptuously termed "Belted Earls". Only places like Abbeville in Kinsealy were spared the wreckers ball by FF, for some reason. DCC then took the opportunity to push a dual carriageway through that part of Georgian and Victorian Dublin, with the ugly results visible to all, particularly when the trees that in summer hide the scars on the cityscape lose their leaves.

Hugo Brady Brown

listermint · 11-11-2011 12:46am

So it looks like that new building is standing on the spot of the original 56.

Hermy · 11-11-2011 12:50am

Thanks for the link lister.

Hermy · 11-11-2011 12:55am

Hugo, maybe leave the politics to the Politics forum.

HugoBradyBrown · 11-11-2011 12:59am

Hermy wrote: »

Hugo, maybe leave the politics to the Politics forum.

That was architectural history; I feel that we must avoid the categorical imperative to be over-compartmentalised and rigidly confined in our respective scholarly disciplines. I used to urge students to seek cross-disciplinary understanding of issues and here I do the same.

FF toes still tender?

Hugo Brady Brown

A Disgrace · 11-11-2011 2:44am

I'm with Hugo on this, it's a fairly well known fact that Boland had 'issues' with Georgian and pre-Georgian Dublin, and that the vast destruction of Dublin occured during his tenure.. It could also be a fact that he and his friends also has a property interest too.. sure, it's political, but surely it's also of interest for the Dublin City forum, especially as it's about our built heritage and all that?

OP, are the odd numbers not on the other side of the street? If so, the house you're looking for was probably further up, where the semi-modern office block now stands - Another block that was totally wiped away despite having a wonderful collection of B&B's, hotels and pubs

_blank_ · 11-11-2011 8:45am

OP has their answer, this is descending into crap.

Locked

_blank_ · 11-11-2011 3:22pm

Re-opened at request of OP

No-one take this any firther down the politics track, thanks

BeerNut · 11-11-2011 3:42pm

Hermy wrote: »

I'm wondering was 56 next to this and demolished

The 25" historic map on the OSI website suggests that the last house on that stretch was where it still is. The corner site was a "laundry" and looks too small for a dwelling.

Hermy · 11-11-2011 5:02pm

That's great beernut. Do you know what year that map is?
If 56 wasn't at the corner of Hatch Street I wonder would it have been the last house on the other side of the road at the junction with Harcourt Road?

spurious · 11-11-2011 5:45pm

The best people to speak to would be the Dublin Archives, upstairs in Pearse St. library. They have a large collection of Thom's directories plus a collection of resources on Dublin generally.
They are very helpful.

BeerNut · 11-11-2011 6:06pm

Hermy wrote: »

That's great beernut. Do you know what year that map is?

Not sure exactly, but the series was published between 1892 and 1913, so should fit your timeframe close enough.

Hermy wrote: »

If 56 wasn't at the corner of Hatch Street I wonder would it have been the last house on the other side of the road at the junction with Harcourt Road?

Dunno. Have you looked at how the modern number sequencing on Harcourt Street goes?

I take it you've checked the 1901 census for details of the address?

the_syco · 11-11-2011 6:08pm

I found this when looking: http://www.dublin.ie/forums/showthread.php?11186-Charlemont-Street-HArcourt-Street-1800-s

Lots of old photos, and they may know about 56 Harcourt Street

Seems the laundry was situated at 58 Harcout Street, where the coffee shop is now: http://www.dublin.ie/forums/showthread.php?13104-Courts-Laundry&p=666761&viewfull=1#post666761

Also, "behind" the tram would be the laundry: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/Harcourt_St_station_%26_tram%2C_1910.jpg

BeerNut · 11-11-2011 6:14pm

Ahhh, the whole site is the laundry. I had been wondering which of the three buildings it referred to: it's all of them.

I do love the way you can see where the coachway is from the map, and it's still there to the right of the front door in the photo.

Hermy · 12-11-2011 12:31pm

Thanks for all the responses. From what I know so far I know my great granny was born at 52 Lower Camden Street and probably moved to 56 Harcourt Street when she got married. From the Thom's Directories I've searched so far she is listed at 56 up until 1916 and the following year the Ancient Order of Hibernian's are listed as occupants.
I've checked the links above and there are some great shots of the area but none make it too clear what the corner looked like back then . I'll post in Dublin.ie and also I have to pay a visit to Pearse Library as Tallaght which I've been using so far are missing a few years Thom's from around the turn of the century. I look forward to talking to the Dublin Archives people to see what the come up with and I'll post back here if anything turns up.

Mister Dread · 12-11-2011 12:39pm

Des wrote: »

Re-opened at request of OP

No-one take this any firther down the politics track, thanks

It's an interesting discussion. Can we have it split into another thread.

BeerNut · 12-11-2011 1:23pm

Hermy wrote: »

the following year the Ancient Order of Hibernian's are listed as occupants.

"I'm just popping next door to get my sash washed."

Let us know what you find out, Hermy.

Victor · 14-11-2011 8:34am

I suspect that Harcourt Street was numbers in the latter half of the 19th century as the railway station seems to have one or no number.

I am inclined to think that it was an upper room(s) over the laundry as was common at the time.

Alternatively, it is possible that the premises was at the corner of Harcourt Road (the one facing Harcourt Street, not Harcourt Road): http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,715709,732817,7,9 which would be consistent with number 46-48 being the site of the former Baptist Church http://www.dia.ie/works/view/35709/building/CO.+DUBLIN,+DUBLIN,+HARCOURT+STREET,+NO.+046-48+%28FOUR+PROVINCES+HOUSE%29

The building had Agfa in 1967 and Spin Records in 1970.

Number 57 is variously listed as the Odeon and the Harcourt Centre, which supports it being near Harcourt Road.

Hermy · 14-11-2011 10:39am

Thanks Victor,

To the best of my knowledge the family owned No. 56 so I'm quite sure they weren't living in just a room above the laundry.
Here's the links for the 1901 and 1911 census returns.
The 1911 return refers to 56.1 and 56.2, the latter being rented from Mary Frances by her daughter Agnes.

seamus · 14-11-2011 11:07am

Victor wrote: »

Alternatively, it is possible that the premises was at the corner of Harcourt Road (the one facing Harcourt Street, not Harcourt Road) which would be consistent with number 46-48 being the site of the former Baptist Church

That's my guess here.

The row of houses across from the terminus appear to cover nos. 41 on. If the Baptist church is 46/47, then no. 56 would be the odd-shaped houses on the corner - possibly a large house converted into a small row of terraces? This would also account for the 56.1, 56.2, noted on the census.

On the other hand, if the church is 46 - 48, then 56 would seem to be the last house before that small terraced row.

Victor · 14-11-2011 11:16am

Hermy wrote: »

Thanks Victor,

To the best of my knowledge the family owned No. 56 so I'm quite sure they weren't living in just a room above the laundry.
Here's the links for the 1901 and 1911 census returns.
The 1911 return refers to 56.1 and 56.2, the latter being rented from Mary Frances by her daughter Agnes.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000186911/

in 1911, Mary Fr(ances) Pelly appeared to have 10 rooms for 7 people and Joseph W Halloran had 3 rooms for 5 people - almost certainly an entire floor, I would suspect the basement or top floor.

As Mary Frances Pelly is listed as living with her brother William Patrick O'Dwyer, was she widowed at that stage? EDIT: yes. Oddly, William is listed as "House Property"!

As there is both a maid and boarders, I would suspect they were reasonably well off, but not too well off.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000186905/

The property appears to have been as a single house. 56.1 + 56.2 refers to housholds, not seperate properties.

Hermy · 14-11-2011 11:31am

She was widowed in 1878. Her husband was Dr. James Pelly of Eyrecourt, Co. Galway. I have a letter from him to her in which he encourages her to take on lodgers to help with the upkeep of the house.

I also believe this will be found a too expensive house to keep up, except and as it is now nearly furnished you could make some of the rent by a single or two ladies joining in a lodging.

Actually, reading that he says 'rent' so presumably they didn't own it!

Victor · 14-11-2011 11:47am

There would have been potentially substantial ground rent and rates to pay. However, it may have been rented.

I wonder if the terrace of buildings on Harcourt Road were something like this:http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Baggot+St.,+Dublin&hl=en&ll=53.337335,-6.25162&spn=0.000352,0.001717&sll=53.401034,-8.307638&sspn=5.766735,19.753418&vpsrc=6&hnear=Baggot+St,+Droichead+Na+Dothra,+Dublin+2&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=53.337242,-6.251708&panoid=0KdyOFHBD55lW2xxPEViKw&cbp=12,349.26,,0,-2.93 - small shops built on a leftover piece of land / side garden.

Victor · 14-11-2011 12:44pm

I was right about the shops.

http://www.cro.ie/search/CompanyDetails.aspx?id=40618&type=B (link may not be clickable)

Type Business Name
Number 40618
Name THE ADELAIDE PHARMACY
Address 57 HARCOURT ST
DUBLIN

Registered 23/07/1965
Status Normal

Effective date: 23/07/1965

I have marked what would have been no. 56 on the photos posted from Dublin.ie.

It is now this: http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Harcourt+Street,+Dublin&hl=en&ll=53.33296,-6.262657&spn=0.00141,0.004823&sll=53.401034,-8.307638&sspn=5.766735,19.753418&vpsrc=6&hnear=Harcourt+St,+Dublin&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.33296,-6.262657&panoid=oLgtd628n6EgzbZ48_Dj_g&cbp=12,282.59,,0,-9.51

Some neighbours
http://www.crawfordartgallery.ie/Watercolours/FMcGillHarcourtStreet.html (looking from number 40 towards Harcourt Road)
http://www.ihpc.ie/ihpc/main/Enquiry.asp?iPictureID=14965&iTownID=1229&iCountyID=12 (Baptist Church and no 48-49?)

Hermy · 14-11-2011 1:12pm

That's just brilliant Victor - well done!:)

Hermy · 14-11-2011 1:21pm

From checking the Thom's Directories of the time the Ancient Order of Hibernian's are listed as occupying 56 in 1917. At that point Mary Frances had moved to Ranelagh.

Victor · 14-11-2011 1:44pm

I would suggest going through the dublin.ie photo thread and check if there are any more Harcourt Road / Street photos.

Where is/ was 56 Harcourt Street?

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