Learning Spanish

Woke Hogan wrote: »

I hope you don't mind me asking but are you Spanish?

Very much not. I'm from Belfast.

EagererBeaver wrote: »

It's a redundant way to describe it, perhaps even offensive to some, but I'd say Catalan is about a third Spanish, a third French and a third it's own language.

There is not a hope a madrileño (or any other non Catalan speaking Spaniard), with no experience or knowledge of Catalan, could follow a conversation between two native Catalans with 70% understanding. Not. A. Hope. Gallego? Yes. Catalan? Not a chance. I'll give you an example. My Basque sister-in-law (fluent Spanish, Basque and English speaker), from Donostia, did her MBA at ESADE in Barcelona. She says she could barely understand a word of it.

Reading it, they could maybe get 40-50%, but a spoken conversation would be way, way lower.

I don't think it would be offensive to any catalan speakers. They are pretty friendly Watch the videos ..They all speak spanish too. Its not the same political situation as Euskara. They are totally diff. Also some Euskal consider themselves totally spanish 100%.

It's absolutely impossible what you have said about your sister in law. Infact you should be able to understand 60% of it just from having spanish alone.

Spanish and catalan have a 75% lexical similarity.

I mean i can understand a good deal of it. And my spanish is not great.

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Sorry mate, you're flat out wrong.

Catalan

• 1 – un.
• 2 – dos.
• 3 – tres.
• 4 – quatre.
• 5 – cinc.
• 6 – sis.
• 7 – set.
• 8 – vuit.

Catalan

Hola come estas?
Spanish
Hola como estas?




Catalan
Pus tenir une galeta?


Spanish



Puedo Tener una galleta?



Both use the verb Tene and the word galleta.



Pus /Puedo.


Catalan


Sentir to feel


Em sento I feel



Et sents millor./ You feel better




Spanish



Sentir to feel



Yo siento I feel


te sientes mejor/You feel better.



Trousers
Catalon
Pantalons
Spanish
Pantalones

To dress

Spanish.

Para Vestir

Catalan

Per Vester.

Same verb Vester/Vestir

Catalan To be

Ser

Spanish to be

Ser erstar.



To fall asleep

Catalan
admormir
He Dormit / I slept.


Spanish

Dormir

Yo Dormi / I slept


Spanish.

Yo camine/ I walked.

Catalan

Vaig camine/ I walked.

Spanish To see

Para Ver

Catalan

Veure To see

Catalan

Escultar

NOW GOOGLE SAYS ESCUCHAR for the spanish but i have DEFINITELY heard escultar in spanish.

But i remember from italian operas anyways signor ascolta ..oh signor ascolta!

Spanish admire

Admiro

Catalan

Admiro.

Butter.

catalan

Mantega

Spanish

Mantequilla.

BUT if you know Argentinian spanish ...the word for butter is Manteca ..which is even MORE similar to the catalan word


It goes on an on.

My spanish aint even good bro.

P.S sorry for my terrible awful spanish. Honestly when i can't spell something ..i just make it up! When i don't know something ..i literally make a word up!

Yes, it does go on and on.

Spanish - ensalada
Catalan - amanida

Spanish - zanahoria
Catalan - pastanaga

Spanish - fresa, frambuesa, naranja
Catalan - maduixa, gerd, taronja

Spanish - desayunar
Catalan - esmorzar

Spanish - te quiero
Catalan - t'estimo

Spanish - no tenemos miedo
Catalan - no tenim por

Spanish - hasta maña
Catalan - fins demà

See, I can selectively choose arguements to suit y narrative as well. It's always helpful.

Having a conversation is not the same as words in a page - it introduces pronunciation, nuance etc. A native Spanish speaker with no knowledge of catalan could not understand a conversation between two Catalans (which was my original assertion). Trust me, I live and work in Barcelona with Spaniards, Catalans and many other nationalities. This comes up a lot.

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Yes, it does go on and on.

Spanish - ensalada
Catalan - amanida

Spanish - zanahoria
Catalan - pastanaga

Spanish - fresa, frambuesa, naranja
Catalan - maduixa, gerd, taronja

Spanish - desayunar
Catalan - esmorzar

Spanish - te quiero
Catalan - t'estimo

Spanish - no tenemos miedo
Catalan - no tenim por

Spanish - hasta maña
Catalan - fins demà

See, I can selectively choose arguements to suit y narrative as well. It's always helpful.

Having a conversation is not the same as words in a page - it introduces pronunciation, nuance etc. A native Spanish speaker with no knowledge of catalan could not understand a conversation between two Catalans (which was my original assertion. Trust me, I live and work in Barcelona wit Spaniards, Catalans and many other nationalities. This comes up a lot.

Then why can i?

I would so get naranja from taranja!

Estimo is obv. You would totally understand that.

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Because you're talking ****e and you can't, or alternatively, you've had exposure to the language over time and have been able to pick up a basis in it.

You say your Spanish isn't particularly good, and you don't live in Catalunya. My Spanish is pretty damn good and I live in Barcelona, and have done for the last five years. I have Spanish family who have lived in Barcelona. Which of is is more qualified to comment on this?!

I honestly don't know if i believe you. Because what you are saying is so ....wrong to me. And yeah my spanish sucks. If you were telling the truth you WOULD be more qualified to say. But then i don't know why you are saying what you are saying.

It makes zero sense.

It wouldn't be the easiest conversation but they would get it.

Maybe we have a diff qualifier of what mutual comprehension is.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Actually scrap that i just asked my mom did we ever visit catalonia (catalan) and Andalusia. (castillian)

We did. For months.

Scratches head.....shrug its all one language anyways :P

Sorry Eager Beaver.

I've been to a lot of diff places in spain. I even went to school there for a bit.

I've also lived for a while in Bilbao and madrid. Ages ago now though...years.

I still feel i am right though.

Maybe ask a spanish person how much catalan they can understand.

I've literally explained to you that I have Spanish family and friends, I work with Spaniards etc who can't understand a native catalan conversation.

And why is your mom (remember your parents used you to order in restaurants, so she's not Spanish) an authority on this? You'll find very few Spaniards (except maybe Vox voters) who would try to argue that Spanish and Catalan are one language. That'd be like saying Spanish and Italian are the same language.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I know they are two different languages. Why are you making this political ?

I am saying they are very very similar.



Like Dutch and German etc. Like Russian and a lot of other slavic Languages etc.

Yes I know my own mother is not Spanish. But she knew where we had lived which would account for my hearing catalan regularly as a kid.

Anyway OP ..just do what you can each day. Then go for a holiday.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Scratches head.....shrug its all one language anyways :P

Part of your argument about how easily understood a Catalan conversation would be to a Spaniard was that your (non Spanish) mother told you it was all one language...

Political? Where have I made it political?!

But whether Catalan is regularly spoken in Catalunya isn't the subject of the discussion? (or for that matter, up for debate to any non-mental person).

You're moving goalposts and losing the run of yourself completely.

normanoffside wrote: »

Lots of Italian influence too.
If you have an understanding of Spanish, French and Italian you can understand a fair bit of Catalan although the same could be said for Romanian.
It’s undoubtedly it’s own langauage.

True. I can't understand a word of Romanian though! I can understand a bit of catalan!

I posted a really interesting video earlier with a french canadian a mexican and a catalan having a conversation in their own languages to see how much they could understand it was really interesting.

Some catalans also took a mexican around to see how much catalan he could get.







Its like dutch /german.

Or Irish and Scots Gaelic.

Hey OP have you tried Instituto Cervantes?

I think they have a choir.

https://dublin.cervantes.es/en/courses_spanish/general_courses_spanish/general_courses_n.htm

They have cultural events from Latin America as well as spain.

There are diff levels you can progress to. They go all the way up to C2 spanish DELE i think...

Check it out.

Omackeral wrote: »

You get better at English while you’re at it.

I’m learning Spanish myself the last couple of years. Duolingo is good, if formulaic, but I’d fully recommend going to actual classes if you’re serious about it. Can’t beat interacting with others and asking questions. Online stuff misses nuance.

A little thing I did to build vocabulary was wrote Spanish words on post-its and stick them around the house until the word was burned into my brain. Sounds weird but it works!

Best of luck.

Ha! I did this when I started out. Post-its on the walls, the kettle, inside the bathroom cabinet - I'll never forget the words though!

feargale wrote: »

Duolingo is good if you're starting from scratch but it won't make you fluent. In fact, my friend, unless you're Einstein fluency means living in the language for a minimum of
2-3 years.

I don't feel so bad about not being fluent after living there for one year now! :pac:

CBear1993 wrote: »

Have heard a lot about this before actually on the South American /Latin vs actual Spanish.

I’m not sure, whichever is going to be carried better around the world I suppose! I would holiday in America a good bit and Europe.

What’s the thoughts on the difference between both?

The basic thing between the americans and european spanish is the ceceo and the fact that europeans don't annunciate vowels clearly. Mexicans tend to lean into vowels..much the same way Americans do compared to english people. Spanish vowels are short and clipped. And people from the south will drop s etc or sometimes even ds. Whereas latin americans tend to communicate very clearly.

The first time i was learning spanish it was from a spanish woman from catalonia (yes she called herself spanish and she spoke spanish with a central madrid accent) and her husband was from Argentina. I never had any issue understanding him. Oh people will say there is this SH sound. Like Yo become SHO...don't worry its more like they make the Y sound so hard its becoming a sho...you can still tell its yo. And because ll in spanish is a y sound too they do it will ll. But its just y being done so hard it sounds sho...like ysho...I hope you can understand me. It might not make sense but if you here an Argentinian say Yo you would get it. Yo mo llamo ...could sound a tiny bit ..ySho mo shllamo but you will still understand it. Don't be scared.

Mexican spanish ...honestly is probably the most clear.

Usted in spain is really only reserved for ...a really old person. They might use ustedes for formal occasions. But mostly for plural forms they use vosotros.

In South/Latin America they generally use Usted for the singular and ustedes for the plural form.

Then there is Tuteo vrs Voseo ...Vos is used in a lot of latin american countries ..not just Argentina.

Don't worry about it though. Whatever you decide to learn you will be understood so long as you speak clearly. But honestly in spoken spanish the way vos conjugates the verb in the present tense doesn't sound that diff. So don't worry you still get they are talking about you etc.

Here is an easy way to remember USTED ...the verb conjugated for the formal you ..like you are talking about he or she. él/ella/usted habla

Ustedes conjugates like ellos

The only thing i think you need to worry about is if you get into a habit of speaking european spanish ..and you go to mexico ...it will be hard to change an accent. And the ceceo or 'lips' (dont call it a lisp tho) is very noticeable but hard to get rid of.

Mexicans also speak in a more eloquent polite way. So that is something to be aware of. Like using ustedes all the time. They sound quite educated.


Spain is a little more informal. And they will think you feel uncomfortable if you say usted/ustedes a lot.

Things like senorita seem to be used less in spain by young women ...senora to be PC ...but in latin american its still senorita. Although that can be a generation thing.

Of course what spanish you want to learn depends on where you want to go etc. But you really need to understand as many dialects as you can. Because they will actually help you understand the language and how it developed.

Dont worry in practice you won't actually have an issue understanding latin american spanish. Its much clearer!

Some latin american countries have some influence from other countries ..argentinian spanish can sound italian ..they have a lot of italian influence ..and italian slang.

Obv mexican slang .chilean slang etc can be diff. But i have noticed latin American slang is being used by spanish young people now. Its mostly from latin american films and rappers etc.

Like the same way we see american films etc and use their slang.

that is all i can think of..sorry the above is so scatty!

How much more expensive is Rosetta Stone over others?

bilbot79 wrote: »

Does anyone know if there are zoom based instructor led classes in Spanish at all?

I can pass you details of an experienced spanish teacher who works via zoom if you like.

usually cheaper to go directly to the individual rather than through institutes. So depending on your needs, that might work best for you.

Send me a PM if you need the contact details

There are actually 2 past tenses in spanish.

And that is NOT counting ANY of the compound tenses(he estado/ he sido etc) . You have the imperfecto de indictivo and the preterite. And they use them both. One for (lets say estar)...i was here WHEN eg (estaba estabas etc)....and one for i was here last tues ..then. eg (estuvé estuviste etc)

Also ser is a verb that is not just irregular in form ..but in the way its used ...In that the above rule is not true for ser.
ike for example they use era , eras etc(imprefecto de indictivo tense) of ser where you would think they would use fuí /fuiste/fué etc(preterite) and its just idiomatic. Like i can't give you a rule.

There are 18 tenses in spanish inc the compound ones..and you need to get to grips with all of them ...Because unlike english the spanish use the subjunctive ALL the time. Estuviera estuvieras .even estuviese ..etc Hubiera estado etc.

I mean i hear them all the time in make up tutorials on youtube etc.



Plus the use of ser vrs estar ...


Its not like french where the passe simple is only in books....they use ALL the tenses in spoken spanish.


Honestly the BEST thing is to listen to natural conversation.

Watching Paquita Salas will help you with grammar :P

Yeah get some lessons ..but get some with a NATIVE speaker.

I have to say tho....before studying it MORE formally ....i wouldn't have been able to explain ser vrs estar to you ...or era vrs fui....i would have only have been able to say that it was idiomatic. Whereas ..i can't KIND OF explain it now. (basically its idiomatic :P )

All i know is era is things you were ...and fui ..is things that happened. Unless its idiomatically not the case :P

Estaba is places you were ..when something happened (preterite is an incompleted action in the past ..except of course for ser!) ...estuvé just a place you were .

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

i wouldn't have been able to explain ser vrs estar to you .

Regarding Ser and Estar.

Both of these verbs mean "to be".

Ser generally feels more "permanent" e.g. soy aburrido (I am boring) or soy alto (I am tall). It's an inherent characteristic that is not liable to change.

Estar feels more temporary e.g. estoy aburrido (I am bored) or estoy feliz (I am happy). These are moods which are liable to change fairly frequently.

There are other situations when both are used and indeed there some exceptions to the above, but this serves as a useful basic explanation of both.

The verb "haber" also means "to be" but it is more to confirm the existence of something e.g. "HAY un bar cerca de mi casa" (there is a pub near my house).

mistersifter wrote: »

There are more than two past tenses in Spanish.

:rolleyes: Its why i said

not counting the compound tenses

and then listed some of them
I KNOW ...that is why i put them in my post. The compound tenses

But they are all the same you just learn the past part for ser its sido


He sido habia sido hubé sido haya sido hubiera sido

Either you didn't read my post or you don't know the compound tenses in spanish and so didn't recognize them.

4. You also have the pluscuamperfecto - e.g. "I had been to the shop"... Another good example of this tense would be "When I got to the station, the train HAD ALREADY LEFT". It is used to refer to incidents that happened in the past, BEFORE another past event.

I literally put them above your post in MY post if you read it.

here are 18 tenses in spanish inc the compound ones..and you need to get to grips with all of them ...Because unlike english the spanish use the subjunctive ALL the time. Estuviera estuvieras .even estuviese ..etc Hubiera estado etc.

Yep that is WHY i put them in my post. I am well aware of them. I went to school IN spain in spanish as a kid.

Spanish has 2 versions of the pluascuamperfecto

Hubiera and hubiese

Then there is hubiere ....but you only see that in legal texts. Its the future pluscuamperfecto its rarely used tho....but the other two hubiera ..hubiese and estuviera /estuviese (imperf de subjunct) etc are used all the time.



And yes I ALSO mention the subjunctive in my previous post.

And we do have it in english ....we just don't use it much. Or some people don't.

I have no issues learning the subjunctive personally. 'Ojala fuera viernes.' 'I wish it were friday.'


Learn from a native spanish speaker ..who has had to learn a second language of their own. A non native speaker can't do it.

Having a native Speaker with poor english is not very helpful when it comes to understanding grammar.

ALL your classes should be 100% in spanish.

Understanding grammar is not going to help you use it. Trust me. I used it years before i understood it.

Anyway no teacher can teach you a language ..you have to put in the work yourself.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

WHAT I MEANT WAS ...when i was a kid living in spain....I knew HOW to use ser and estar ...but i couldn't have EXPLAINED why they were used this way. There was no rule. And there IS no hard rule. Its very idiomatic and complex.

Why don't you get your non Spanish, non Spanish speaking ma to sign up to the Board and explain it all to us? I mean, her word was gospel on other topics in this discussion you don't have a clue about, so why not this?

MOD NOTE

No habla Espanol myself, so I can't speak to who's right or wrong or whatever ...but let's keep it on topic and not get personal, right?

Be nice to each other, mmkay ...

Either you didn't read my post or you don't know the compound tenses in spanish and so didn't recognize them

I haven't read all of your posts so apologies if I have missed something you said. I was responding to your comments that you struggle to explain the difference between ser and estar and a couple of other things.

I went to school IN spain in spanish as a kid.

yet you cannot explain the difference between ser and estar. And many native speakers cannot explain such differences either. So, if anything, this reinforces my own point that native speakers are not inevitably better teachers than non native speakers.

He sido habia sido hubé sido haya sido hubiera sido

Hubé is not a Spanish word.

Spanish has 2 versions of the pluascuamperfecto...Hubiera and hubiese

Again, this is incorrect. Hubiese/hubiera are the imperfect subjunctive i.e. imperfecto de subjuntivo. In other words, they are past tense subjunctives. They are not the pluscuamperfecto.

ALL your classes should be 100% in spanish.

I disagree. There's a counterproductive pretentiousness around this and it inhibits teaching. Many students benefit greatly from English explanations of the tenses, as I proved in my original posts which I think were quite clear explanations of the nature of some tenses.

Understanding grammar is not going to help you use it. Trust me. I used it years before i understood it

I don't need to trust you. I have studied the language to a very high level and spent many years living in Spanish speaking countries including Argentina. I lived and worked in many types of communities, poor and rich, immigrant and native. I have a solid understanding of Spanish language in all its forms including slang, formal usage etc. It is the first language spoken in my home.

Anyway no teacher can teach you a language ..you have to put in the work yourself.

I agree with this. It's like anything, if you enjoy it and pursue it and put the time in, you will learn. There are not really any shortcuts. It's not easy to become fluent in Spanish, despite what some people would have you believe.

Learn from a native spanish speaker ..who has had to learn a second language of their own. A non native speaker can't do it.

Not true that non-natives cannot teach Spanish. Some of the best Spanish teachers we have in this country are Irish. I know some of them personally. Also, I am Irish and I can teach the language a lot better than most of the native speakers I know. There are many things to consider when choosing a teacher. I say this without denying the need to engage with natives or the obvious advantages that natives have when they are good teachers.

It is indeed very useful at times to use English as a comparative means of learning. Funnily enough, only last week I spoke to someone who is learning Spanish and told me that they NEED grammatical concepts to be explained in English. Students will have different learning styles also, so this should be taken into account.

In my early days studying the language, I had some native teachers who had zero English and this often proved more of an obstacle than anything else.

Translation is part of language learning. For example, if you are studying Spanish to English translation, you will be best off with a native English speaker who speaks Spanish. If you are studying English- Spanish, the opposite is true.
There are many things to take into account when looking for a teacher.