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Tier 2 proposals published

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Hawkeye9212


    A tiered championship can't be created unless the provincials are separated from the All-Ireland. I think needs its own Joe McDonagh.

    Tier 1 could has 10 teams split into two groups of 5. The teams who finish top advance to the semi-finals. The teams who finish second advance to the quarter-finals. The teams who finish bottom are relegated to Tier 2.

    Tier 2 has 6 teams. The top two teams advance to the final and the quarter-finals of Tier 1. They are also promoted to Tier 1. The teams who finish bottom are relegated to Tier 3 which consists of the remaining 16 teams.


  • Registered Users Posts: 693 ✭✭✭grbear


    https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/gaa-ignore-gpas-appeal-to-defer-vote-on-second-tier-38501081.html


    I'm not the biggest cheerleader for the GPA but waiting until the Fixtures Task Force have had a chance to issue their report seems like the sensible approach to me.

    Sadly it looks like Horan is determined to try and bulldoze this B tier proposal through so he can have some sort of legacy. A shame really as a well implemented B tier could be a real benefit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭jacool


    With the dominance of Dublin GAA not ending anytime soon, perhaps the other 30 counties, along with New York and London could enter this Tier 2 competition.
    You have 32 counties then, so straight knockout or league groups of 4 with the winners (or winners and runners-up if we really want to make money out of it) going into a knockout competition?
    (Half) tongue in cheek.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    https://www.gaa.ie/news-archive/news/tier-2-championship-proposal-confirmed/?fbclid=IwAR0Pe2WVpXHexYDTBVSmH903rL7ssQY19mSULMknj4QN6uoY44-gWtYHvtg
    A meeting of the GAA’s Ard Chomhairle last weekend agreed the agenda for next month’s Special Congress in Cork. The meeting will debate the addition of a proposed new Tier 2 Football Championship, as well as deliberate over the introduction of three new playing rules for the game.

    Two proposed formats for a possible new Tier 2 Football Championship have been in circulation since late June.

    Following discussions, Ard Chomhairle chose to send forward one of these formats for debate and vote at the Special Congress, which will take place at Pc Uhaoimh on October 19.

    Under this proposal the Provincial Championships will be played as currently.

    The All-Ireland Qualifiers will be open to teams from Allianz League Divisions 1 and 2 and any Division 3 or 4 teams who qualify for their Provincial Final.

    This will mean only two full rounds of All-Ireland Qualifiers in future as opposed to four - an additional Preliminary Round is provided for however, in years where more than 8 teams are eligible to participate in Round 1.

    It is proposed to then introduce a new straight knockout Tier 2 Championship for all Division 3 and 4 teams that do not reach their Provincial Finals.

    A range of marketing and promotional supports will be committed to the new competition, as well as the use of Croke Park for semi-finals and finals and a planned increase in TV coverage.

    Following a review of the Experimental Rules that were trialed in Gaelic Football during the Allianz League and Provincial Cup competitions, it has been decided to forward three of them for proposed permanent introduction at all levels of the game.

    Based on the research carried out by the GAA’s Standing Committee on Playing Rules, led by Professor David Hassan, the following are to be voted on at Special Congress:

    · The taking of all kick-outs from the 20 metre line

    · the introduction of a 10-minute ‘sin bin’ for players who receive a black card

    · The awarding of a ‘mark’ to players who cleanly catch a ball kicked from on or outside the opposition’s 45m line, that travels at least 20m and without touching the ground

    The SCPR decided to withdraw the experimental playing rule regarding Sideline kick to be kicked forward, as based on the analysis undertaken by the Committee from the Provincial Pre-Season Competitions and Allianz Leagues 2019 and feedback from players, the impact of the proposed rule was minimal.

    Ard Chomhairle also agreed to amend the scheduling of the existing All-Ireland SFC Quarter-Final format for the final year of its trial in 2020.

    In Round 1 of the group stage of the Quarter-Final, the four provincial champions will be at home against one of the teams who came through the Qualifiers – as was the case in 2019.

    It was also agreed that for 2020, Round 2 will see the winners of the Round 1 matches play each other, while the losers of the Round 1 matches will also face off.

    At present there has been a round of games that are scheduled to take place at Croke Park. It is now planned to give the authority to CCCC to fix these games for venues other than Croke Park - if deemed appropriate. This would require the approval of a full GAA Congress and it is intended to bring forward a motion on this to Congress 2020 next February.

    If passed, this would come into effect for the 2020 Championship which is the final year of the current three-year trial involving the new Quarter-Final group phase.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭Happyilylost



    Interesting. I agree with the three rules introduction although I think the inside mark is still a bit iffy. Changes to the Super Eights is a smart idea. Still leaves the potential for dead rubbers but its the best they can do.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,963 ✭✭✭threeball


    Interesting. I agree with the three rules introduction although I think the inside mark is still a bit iffy. Changes to the Super Eights is a smart idea. Still leaves the potential for dead rubbers but its the best they can do.

    Inside mark is iffy and the kickouts from 20m line is pointless. They'll still kick it short. I'd prefer to see them making the goalkeeper kick it outside the 45 if they receive a back pass. Get rid of scores from the hand too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭franglan


    Not a fan of the mark inside 45, slows games down could lead to a good free taker shooting contest - particularly at club level. Borders aussie rules stuff - not for me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,102 ✭✭✭Boom__Boom


    · the introduction of a 10-minute ‘sin bin’ for players who receive a black card

    How in the name of god's hell does anyone think this will improve the game ?

    All it does is reduce the punishment for committing black card fouls.

    If you reduce the puishment for committing fouls, players are going to commit more fouls.

    Currently if a player commits a black card offense, it means their game is over.

    Under this rule, the player will get to take a breather on the bench and come back in 10 minutes later. I'm sure that every single team when they go down to 14 will do everything to slow down the game as much as possible during this 10 minutes - lads going down holding their heads, taking as mmuch time as possible for kickouts, frees, side-line balls, holding possession, backwards passing, the whole gamut of slow boring play that no-one wants to see.

    Will it make life any easier for referees? No - because they are still human and will still make the same mistakes. The rules on what is and isn't a black card are remaining the same.

    I defy anyone to come up with a decent reason as to why/how this is supposed to improve the game.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,292 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Lipstick on the already repeatedly lipsticked pig

    The only format that will ever work is 8 groups of 4. Round robin. Top 2 into a championship, bottom two into b championship.

    Then each into 4 groups of 4 with the winners going into to semi finals of their a and b championships.

    No replays.

    Minimum games 6
    Maximum games 8

    For every single county.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,292 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    The provincials have to go.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Hawkeye9212


    Seedings based on the 2019 Provincial championships:

    Tier 1 (17 teams)

    Connacht

    Galway, Mayo, and Roscommon.

    Leinster

    Dublin, Meath, Laois, Kildare, and Westmeath.

    Munster

    Clare, Cork, and Kerry.

    Ulster

    Armagh, Cavan, Donegal, Fermanagh, Monaghan, and Tyrone.

    Qualifiers

    PQR

    Laois v Westmeath

    Round 1

    Mayo v Laois/Westmeath
    Fermanagh v Kildare
    Tyrone v Clare
    Monaghan v Armagh

    Round 2

    Cavan v Mayo/Laois/Westmeath
    Galway v Fermanagh/Kildare
    Meath v Tyrone/Clare
    Cork v Monaghan/Armagh

    Super 8s

    Group 1

    Kerry
    Donegal
    Cavan/Mayo/Laois/Westmeath
    Galway/Fermanagh/Kildare

    Group 2

    Dublin
    Roscommon
    Meath/Tyrone/Clare
    Cork/Monaghan/Armagh

    Tier 2 (15 teams)

    Connacht

    Leitrim, London, and Sligo.

    Leinster

    Carlow, Longford, Louth, Offaly, Wexford, and Wicklow.

    Munster

    Limerick, Tipperary, and Waterford.

    Ulster

    Antrim, Derry, and Down.

    Round 1

    Carlow v Sligo
    Longford v Wexford
    Offaly v Wicklow
    Down v London
    Leitrim v Antrim
    Louth v Limerick
    Derry v Waterford

    Quarter-Final

    Tipperary v Carlow/Sligo
    Longford/Wexford v Offaly/Wicklow
    Down/London v Leitrim/Antrim
    Louth/Limerick v Derry/Waterford


  • Registered Users Posts: 294 ✭✭TrueGael


    Tier 2 nonsense another consequence of the decision to dope the Golden Child over 15 years ago..............


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,037 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Is it just me or do we usually see the very one sided match-up in the Provincial Championship more so than in the qualifiers

    Sure the match-up of Limerick v Mayo in 2018 happens, but there is a higher chance of Limerick v Kerry happening, or Cork v limerick, or Dublin v Louth etc etc, you get the point

    So why try to organise the qualifiers on merit rather than the provincials

    But sure we all know the reason for that

    the sooner someone has the balls to make the change in the provincials the better

    But I fear I'll be waiting


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog


    Are Munster and Leinster winners not in the same group next year?

    Just an aside, but will make for a more unpredictable competition assuming Dublin and Kerry come through again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Hawkeye9212


    The proposal isn't as bad as I thought it would be. I'm still not a fan of this attempt to find a middle ground between a tiered championship and the provincial championships. Colm O'Rourke is right. We need at least three tiers like the ladies. The provincial championships should be seperated from the All-Ireland championship.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11 Masteryos


    I really don't get why the GAA struggles with making a good 32 team competition for one of their highest rate trophy.

    Have it so that either the provisional's happen before the actual competition starts with them all finishing and starting in the same time frame, then move onto the all-Ireland were the teams are put into:

    8 groups of 4. Groups could be based on random or seeded via how they did in the league or even provisional.
    Each team plays one home and away game with the third game at a neutral ground.
    Top 2 from each group carry on to the All-Ireland last 16.
    Bottom 2 from each group carry on to the tier 2 competition.
    Each last 16 tie can either be played with the higher ranking team in the competition getting home advantage or if this feels like it is too much, lower ranking team gets home advantage.
    The quarter finals of each competition takes place in a neutral venue.
    the finals and Semi's take place in Croke park.

    Each team gets 4 games in the All-Ireland, multiple stadiums get used with fans from all over travelling. Make it set in a way that no one can claim one team has been given an unfair advantage over the others.

    If that isn't possible then maybe it is time to do away with the provional's or have them set up so that the minors take over the importance of each competition.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Hawkeye9212


    Masteryos wrote: »
    I really don't get why the GAA struggles with making a good 32 team competition for one of their highest rate trophy.

    Have it so that either the provisional's happen before the actual competition starts with them all finishing and starting in the same time frame, then move onto the all-Ireland were the teams are put into:

    8 groups of 4. Groups could be based on random or seeded via how they did in the league or even provisional.
    Each team plays one home and away game with the third game at a neutral ground.
    Top 2 from each group carry on to the All-Ireland last 16.
    Bottom 2 from each group carry on to the tier 2 competition.
    Each last 16 tie can either be played with the higher ranking team in the competition getting home advantage or if this feels like it is too much, lower ranking team gets home advantage.
    The quarter finals of each competition takes place in a neutral venue.
    the finals and Semi's take place in Croke park.

    Each team gets 4 games in the All-Ireland, multiple stadiums get used with fans from all over travelling. Make it set in a way that no one can claim one team has been given an unfair advantage over the others.

    If that isn't possible then maybe it is time to do away with the provional's or have them set up so that the minors take over the importance of each competition.

    8 groups of 4 sounds nice but we're not dealing with the top 32 teams on a continent or in the world. Wicklow wouldn't be in the premier competition in any other sport except the NFL. At least the Cleveland Browns can spend a lot of money recruiting new players.


  • Registered Users Posts: 512 ✭✭✭Frozen Veg


    How would 8 groups of 4 address anything. Same problems different format.

    Two tiers of 16.

    4 groups of 4 in each.

    Top two of each group to quarter finals. Bottom team to relegation play off. One up one down.

    Play the provincials in a league format.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog


    For the lower teams, the provincials are still an opportunity to have maybe a big day and occasionally take a scalp in the qualifiers. Don't see how effectively relegating them to a lower status in a competition that no one cares about is going to help.

    The lower tier hurling cups are different as outside the McCarthy teams, and top two in McDonagh, , the rest are in different universe so nice to have competitions that they have genuine chance in against teams on similar level.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Hawkeye9212


    Proposal for a three tier championship.

    Senior Championship(10 teams)

    2 groups of 5.

    1st and 2nd - SF.
    6th - Relegation final.

    Group A

    Donegal
    Roscommon
    Meath
    Cavan
    Monaghan

    Group B

    Dublin
    Kerry
    Mayo
    Tyrone
    Galway

    Intermediate Championship (10 teams)

    Same format as the senior championship.

    Group A

    Cork
    Armagh
    Laois
    Westmeath
    Fermanagh

    Group B

    Kildare
    Clare
    Tipperary
    Down
    Louth

    Junior Championship

    2 groups of 6.

    1st - SF
    2nd and 3rd - QF.

    Group A

    Offaly
    Carlow
    Waterford
    Derry
    London

    Group B

    Longford
    Sligo
    Leitrim
    Antrim
    Wicklow
    Limerick


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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,292 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Frozen Veg wrote: »
    How would 8 groups of 4 address anything. Same problems different format.

    Two tiers of 16.

    4 groups of 4 in each.

    Top two of each group to quarter finals. Bottom team to relegation play off. One up one down.

    Play the provincials in a league format.

    in 8 groups of 4 - the weaker teams get to play better teams and at the end of it they go into their own 16 team competition involving all the two bottom placed teams.

    Then they have 4 groups of 4 against similar level of opposition but at least annually they get to take on the bigger sides.

    one up one down out of a 16 county block would see the majority of them confined to never ever playing a bigger county.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭cms88


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    For the lower teams, the provincials are still an opportunity to have maybe a big day and occasionally take a scalp in the qualifiers. Don't see how effectively relegating them to a lower status in a competition that no one cares about is going to help.

    The lower tier hurling cups are different as outside the McCarthy teams, and top two in McDonagh, , the rest are in different universe so nice to have competitions that they have genuine chance in against teams on similar level.

    I don't understand that thinking. They'll play againest teams much better than them on the off chance they might beat them every now and then?


  • Registered Users Posts: 81 ✭✭westcork67


    A "B" championship that doesn't afford the winner (or finalists) a route back into the main championship in the same year is a dead duck - simple as!!

    Most lads won't train their holes off for the guts of a year to win a B championship and then that's it - whereas if they thought they could get a crack at an A-Team in the quarterfinals or preliminary quarterfinals that would motivate you - look at Laois in the hurling this year and what it did for the county beating Dublin

    Most lads in a B-team are:
    Not sure of their place on the panel the following year - could be a manager change and face doesn't fit etc
    Unsure of their work/home situation and ability to commit for the next year
    Injuries etc

    Players think in the current year because they have to, and you need to give the B-team players something big to go for in the same year - otherwise, despite all the plamas from the GAA about media coverage etc it will be the Tommy Murphy all over again


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,621 ✭✭✭Nidgeweasel


    Clareman wrote: »
    I don't think anyone cares about the provincial championship anymore, if Clare were to win Munster I'd say the only celebration would be that we got to the Super 8s.

    Complete rubbish.


  • Registered Users Posts: 294 ✭✭TrueGael


    Until the elephant in the room is addressed once and for all , this is just pissing into a hurricane


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    For the lower teams, the provincials are still an opportunity to have maybe a big day and occasionally take a scalp in the qualifiers. Don't see how effectively relegating them to a lower status in a competition that no one cares about is going to help.

    The lower tier hurling cups are different as outside the McCarthy teams, and top two in McDonagh, , the rest are in different universe so nice to have competitions that they have genuine chance in against teams on similar level.

    Recent results by the likes of Carlow and Laois have shown that the gap is much smaller than it was 10 years ago . Arguably as a result of the tiered competitions


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,110 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Seedings based on the 2019 Provincial championships:

    Tier 1 (17 teams)

    Connacht

    Galway, Mayo, and Roscommon.

    Leinster

    Dublin, Meath, Laois, Kildare, and Westmeath.

    Munster

    Clare, Cork, and Kerry.

    Ulster

    Armagh, Cavan, Donegal, Fermanagh, Monaghan, and Tyrone.

    Tier 2 (15 teams)

    Connacht

    Leitrim, London, and Sligo.

    Leinster

    Carlow, Longford, Louth, Offaly, Wexford, and Wicklow.

    Munster

    Limerick, Tipperary, and Waterford.

    Ulster

    Antrim, Derry, and Down.

    What have you against New York ?

    And why not force Kilkenny to finally put up a team?

    Also wouldn't it be better to always have even numbers ?
    Recent results by the likes of Carlow and Laois have shown that the gap is much smaller than it was 10 years ago . Arguably as a result of the tiered competitions

    One offs really.
    Too much is always made out of one of the lower ranked teams getting a win or two every 4 or 5 years.
    It is trotted out, especially by our media and the GAA heads, as a claim and excuse that the championship was somehow great.
    In fact I think it is quite patronising.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Hawkeye9212


    jmayo wrote: »
    What have you against New York ?

    And why not force Kilkenny to finally put up a team?

    Also wouldn't it be better to always have even numbers ?

    I don't have anything against New York. This is how Horan's proposal would have played out in 2019. Cork were relegated to Division 3 but reached their provincial final so they would have entered Tier 1. This results in the uneven numbers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,022 ✭✭✭blowitupref


    Masteryos wrote: »
    I really don't get why the GAA struggles with making a good 32 team competition for one of their highest rate trophy.

    Have it so that either the provisional's happen before the actual competition starts with them all finishing and starting in the same time frame, then move onto the all-Ireland were the teams are put into:

    8 groups of 4. Groups could be based on random or seeded via how they did in the league or even provisional.
    Each team plays one home and away game with the third game at a neutral ground.
    Top 2 from each group carry on to the All-Ireland last 16.
    Bottom 2 from each group carry on to the tier 2 competition.
    Each last 16 tie can either be played with the higher ranking team in the competition getting home advantage or if this feels like it is too much, lower ranking team gets home advantage.
    The quarter finals of each competition takes place in a neutral venue.
    the finals and Semi's take place in Croke park.

    Each team gets 4 games in the All-Ireland, multiple stadiums get used with fans from all over travelling. Make it set in a way that no one can claim one team has been given an unfair advantage over the others.

    If that isn't possible then maybe it is time to do away with the provional's or have them set up so that the minors take over the importance of each competition.


    They have a very good competition its called the league and instead of doing the sensible thing of making their best format more important they have decided to focus all their efforts on tiers and what is proposed is little better than what we had before (Tommy Murphy cup)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11 Masteryos


    lawred2 wrote: »
    in 8 groups of 4 - the weaker teams get to play better teams and at the end of it they go into their own 16 team competition involving all the two bottom placed teams.

    Then they have 4 groups of 4 against similar level of opposition but at least annually they get to take on the bigger sides.

    one up one down out of a 16 county block would see the majority of them confined to never ever playing a bigger county.

    Exactly. Under a format that has 32 teams in 8 groups of 4 we get the following.

    A more even playing field. No continuous issues of a small number of team having it easier to reach the quarter finals vs the other teams.
    Teams all play the same amount of games and within the same time frame.
    Smaller teams can test themselves against bigger teams without the full worry of having their summer ended earlier.
    Allows teams to actually develop and improve. If a team fails to each the tier A competition they still have a chance to do well and make progress in the tier B competition. Lets be realistic, if a team fails to win the Tier B competition they don't have much chance at the All-Ireland.

    Having a tier B actually gives teams a way to progress and can act like a marker. If teams fail to realise this but at the same time expect to do somewhat well in the All Ireland then they are fooling themselves.


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