Home generator

jamesd · 25-08-2020 12:41pm #1

Having been without power for 68hrs last week I have decided to get a generator.

I have ordered this:Pacini 7.5kva Silent Diesel Generator, Electric Start with AVR, link: https://ige.ie/pacini-7-5kva-silent-diesel-generator-electric-start/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw7ZL6BRCmARIsAH6XFDLakD5eqwQzCgYo1cauxP2az30Yme8R0wMjP7kiWfq5adbJkz0cHuoaAmLsEALw_wcB

I rang my local electrician last night and he will install a manual change over switch for me.

On it I would like to keep running:
1) Chest freezer
2) Fridge with freezer
3) Waterpump for solid fuel stove
4) Well pump
5) 700W UPS that runs my internet connection into the house and the router - no load on this UPS at all only a modem and a router
6) A few light bulbs - all led

Should I be well covered with the 7.5Kva ?

When powering it on should I be switching off the freezer and well pump then on one at a time ?
Plan would be in an outage to let it run during the day and then power it off at night and on again in the morning.

What would be the max length of cable / type of cable I should use to allow me to keep the generator away from the house a bit for noise ?

Lastly : Would you put this into some type of hut / cover when running to keep rain off it (with access for exhaust to vent ?)

Pete67 · 25-08-2020 3:17pm

You should be fine. 7.5kVA is approx 6kW when you allow for non-unity power factor so assume that you can't draw more than 6kW continuously. But that's actually quite a useful amount of power to have available.

If you add up all the loads you want to run and it comes to less than 6kW (6,000W) then no problem.

Fridge / freezer and chest freezer are likely to be less than 500W each
waterpump for stove - probably 300W max
Well pump - 2500W to 4500W depanding on the size of the motor - check the rating plate.
UPS with small loads - maybe 150W
LED lights - less than 10W each unless you are talking about outdoor flood lights.

Fridges and freezers do not run continuously either.

One thing to be aware of is high starting current of electric motors - for example a 2.5kW motor may draw 5kW for a few seconds while starting up. As long as all the motors do not start at the same time this is not usually a problem.

When changing over to generator during a power cut, don't just change over the manual switch with all loads on. Switch everything off first, start generator, change over the manual switch and then add loads one at a time. Your generator will thank you.

I've run my house lights (all LED), computers, fridge, TV, router etc and the gas fired central heating on a 2kW inverter generator during a power cut and most of the time the generator is just idling.

If you want the generator to work when needed then once a month start it and transfer some load for about 30 mins. Check oil level and top up as necessary. Keep the fuel tank full to avoid condensation inside the tank, and lastly consider a small solar panel to keep the starting battery fully charged.

The generator is air cooled so the most I would do is build a lean-to shelter open on three sides to keep rain off.

jamesd · 25-08-2020 3:48pm

Thank you very much, some good advise on powering all the main items off first then powering up the generator.

I will not be able to check the startup wattage on the well pump as its deep deep down but would I be able to check it with something like a clamp on amp meter on the cable where it is plugged in ?

Would an oil boiler be a heavy load to start/run - Ive been looking online and can see its 230V with a 5amp fuse but cannot get any more into on its startup or running.

For running a computer / TV - once the generator has the auto voltage regulator is that smooth enough to run them with out any issues ?

Pete67 · 25-08-2020 4:03pm

You can use a clamp on ammeter to measure the well pump starting / running current but you need to make sure that the clamp is around one or other of the live and neutral conductors - not both. That may be easy or not depending on how it is connected. Something like this might also be useful.

Running an oil boiler should also be no problem, if it has a 5A fuse it's likely less than one kW starting current, probably only a couple of hundred watts running load.

The output from a generator with an electronic AVR should be good enough for most electronics, most devices now have switch mode power supplies which are fairly robust anyway.

jamesd · 25-08-2020 4:34pm

I have one of them ordered now, with the clamp on I was thinking I would build myself a short extension cable with the neutral wire exposed for clamping onto so that little plug in device is much easier to use.

Expecting delivery this week , will pop up a few pics once all is installed as might help others in the future.

25-08-2020 7:19pm

jamesd wrote: »

What would be the max length of cable / type of cable I should use to allow me to keep the generator away from the house a bit for noise ?

A longer cable is possible but as the length increases the conductor size should also increase (to limit the volt drop).

7.5kVA = around 33 amps, therefore I would select a cable of at least 6mm sq. and for a run of 10m I would select at least a 10 mm sq.

Would you put this into some type of hut / cover when running to keep rain off it (with access for exhaust to vent ?)

No, I would keep the generator in a shed and wheel it out and plug it into a generator outlet when as required. Otherwise it will be a rusty mess when you actually need it.

Personally I would avoid supplying expensive electronic equipment from a generator such as this. It may be ok, but personally I wouldn't risk it.

jamesd · 26-08-2020 10:42am

Thanks 2011 , so something like this would be a safe bet ?

https://www.justgenerators.co.uk/defender-25m-32-amp-240-volt-2-5mm-extension-cable.html

25m 32A 240V 2.5mm Extension Cable Details

Core Size - 2.5mm
Cable Length - 25m
Amps - 32
Voltage - 240V
Approved - BS4343

So once the cable is of the correct core size there is no issue with distance in it.

I could keep the Generator in my garage and bring out when needed, I am wondering through if its raining for a few days is that any harm to the generator ?

26-08-2020 12:13pm

A core size of 2.5 mm sq. is too small. You need a far larger cable for that or you will have excessive volt drop especially with larger currents and at 25m.

Also the plug and sockets are only rated for 32A. This is right on the edge as the generator can push out slightly more than this. I would go for 63A ratings.

Edit: I was wrong abut this ^^^. Going with a 32A plug / socket makes sense as this aligns with what is on the generator.

High level general explanation:

Longer cable run = larger cable size (normally)

For a given cable size as the length increases the resistance also increases. This is generally dealt with by increasing the cable conductor size.

Higher resistance for a given current through a given conductor = higher volt drop across the conductor.

26-08-2020 1:36pm

See correction made to above post ^^

jamesd · 26-08-2020 2:10pm

Thank you again - So for a 25m cable I should go for 6mm sq. to reduce my voltage loss due to its length.

26-08-2020 4:30pm

jamesd wrote: »

Thank you again - So for a 25m cable I should go for 6mm sq. to reduce my voltage loss due to its length.

A calculation would have to be done to be sure.

An online calculator (don’t know how good it is) tells me that L+N resistance of a 25m cable with 6 mm sq. conductor is 0.1425 Ohms. At 30 amps this equates to a volt drop of 4.3 volts. This is a 1.9% volt drop before you even get to the board.

25m is very long! Would you not consider shorter ?

jamesd · 26-08-2020 4:51pm

I would think I should be able to go a lot shorter, I think that 10 meters will do all I need to get it away from the house.

Generator should be arriving at the end of this week, I will more than likely then be praying for a power cut to test it.

26-08-2020 6:09pm

jamesd wrote: »

I will more than likely then be praying for a power cut to test it.

You don't need a power cut to test it!

27-08-2020 3:02am

2011 wrote: »

No, I would keep the generator in a shed and wheel it out and plug it into a generator outlet when as required. Otherwise it will be a rusty mess when you actually need it.

I just use modern generators instead that don't burn things.

ozymandias10 · 02-09-2020 3:08pm

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

I just use modern generators instead that don't burn things.

where can you get this

02-09-2020 4:13pm

I build them because I like reliability and 100% rated. There's lots of alternative li-ion "powerpacks"
Principally it's just a charger, battery and inverter.
2 > 100s of times more efficient than a petrol depending on how you load them.

tech · 05-09-2020 9:31pm

Hi, whats the cost of that setup and what are the parts used??

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

I build them because I like reliability and 100% rated. There's lots of alternative li-ion "powerpacks"
Principally it's just a charger, battery and inverter.
2 > 100s of times more efficient than a petrol depending on how you load them.

vmware · 06-09-2020 6:43am

is petrol better over a diesel generator? are those pacini Diesels a good investment

looking forward to your review JamesD

07-09-2020 12:20am

I built 5 and they're all high end with top-shelf switchgear.
350VA lead 12v, 1.2kVA LiFePO4 12V, 1.3kVA Lead 24v, 2.2kVA Lead 24V (killed inverter making it go faster) & 2.4kVA LifePO4 60V (4kVA more wholesome inverter transplant scheduled).

Cost...they're prototypes...ranges between €1k and €5k rolling. The inverters are Studers there's cheaper but not better.

The Leads are every bit as good as the LiFePO4s.

Chargers, solar chargers, automation, BMS etc built-in. The two units photo'd have integrated batteries the lead one has an external out for powering truck tail lifts, adding external battery, adding external charger, charging external battery from onboard mains/solar charger.

Will Prowse reviews a lottov off the shelf jobbers. Mine do 100% rated 100% duty continuous.

They don't turn a flywheel at idle they can run all week to charge a phone on the same fuel tank (efficiency compare that to petrol), operating noise <40dB, indoor safe, no noxious gases, I can reload them with sunlight, some are solar enabled, others have genset automation and one can orchestrate a micro grid.

Diesel is better than petrol, both are primitive and obnoxious.

Water John · 07-09-2020 12:36am

In fairness Sir, you're brilliant at the DIY renewable energy and I admire what you do, but it's a niche option at present.
Anyone using a petrol gen, buy a can of Fuel Fit to keep the petrol from going stale.

07-09-2020 2:00am

It's 20 year old tech. I'm using WJ.
I got no time for small engines.

I consider a 30kVA a small genset.

jamesd · 10-09-2020 11:46am

Pete67 wrote: »

You can use a clamp on ammeter to measure the well pump starting / running current but you need to make sure that the clamp is around one or other of the live and neutral conductors - not both. That may be easy or not depending on how it is connected. Something like this might also be useful.

Running an oil boiler should also be no problem, if it has a 5A fuse it's likely less than one kW starting current, probably only a couple of hundred watts running load.

The output from a generator with an electronic AVR should be good enough for most electronics, most devices now have switch mode power supplies which are fairly robust anyway.

Ive been using the power meter as it arrived Monday, really handy to get the startup /running Watts of items.
I tested it on a 100W bulb first to make sure it was close to accurate, my well water pump is 1000W when pumping, Kettle is 2200W so will not be used on the generator at all, Freezer is low - runs at about 70W and lower most of the time, just need to check my internet equipment next as it runs off 2 UPS's and then lastly my pump on the stove as that's really all Id want to run apart from one or two house lights.

Waiting on the Electrician still to wire me up to the house.

quietsailor · 10-09-2020 3:09pm

jamesd wrote: »

Ive been using the power meter as it arrived Monday, really handy to get the startup /running Watts of items.
I tested it on a 100W bulb first to make sure it was close to accurate, my well water pump is 1000W when pumping, Kettle is 2200W so will not be used on the generator at all, Freezer is low - runs at about 70W and lower most of the time, just need to check my internet equipment next as it runs off 2 UPS's and then lastly my pump on the stove as that's really all Id want to run apart from one or two house lights.

Waiting on the Electrician still to wire me up to the house.

if you have a solid fuel stove you can use that for cooking and boiling water so that removes the kettle which is a heavy electrical current item - electric fan heaters and hair dryers are two more that surprise people; because they're not physically big people assume they consume small amounts of electricity but its the opposite.

jamesd · 10-09-2020 4:34pm

quietsailor wrote: »

if you have a solid fuel stove you can use that for cooking and boiling water so that removes the kettle which is a heavy electrical current item - electric fan heaters and hair dryers are two more that surprise people; because they're not physically big people assume they consume small amounts of electricity but its the opposite.

Yes our stove has a boiler in it for our hot water so very handy, it does not have a hot plate though for boiling a kettle but we are happy enough to use a small gas camping stove in the event of a power cut for water and cooking.
Ill be locking up the hair dryers on them then - Ive no use for one myself

vmware · 13-09-2020 12:44pm

I have a questions, would it be possible to get the transfer switch / generator connection setup in the garage, this has a sub board from the house?

or would it have to be wired in the house?

Thanks

Pkiernan · 13-09-2020 12:48pm

What stops this set up sending power back up to the grid?

Zarco · 13-09-2020 1:33pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

What stops this set up sending power back up to the grid?

Changeover

jamesd · 13-09-2020 1:50pm

vmware wrote: »

I have a questions, would it be possible to get the transfer switch / generator connection setup in the garage, this has a sub board from the house?

or would it have to be wired in the house?

Thanks

I'd say it would surely have to be on the house board, as the house would then feed the garage, unless you only wanted to power the garage.

vmware · 03-10-2020 12:22pm

did you get your Genny setup and wired?

jamesd · 04-10-2020 5:31pm

vmware wrote: »

did you get your Genny setup and wired?

No, sparks supposed to come to me this week so hopefully.

Fitted this on the battery, shows me it's level and makes it very easy to charge.

bobbyy gee · 04-10-2020 5:36pm

make sure its exhausted outside for carbon dioxide

The Continental Op · 04-10-2020 5:48pm

jamesd wrote: »

Ive been using the power meter as it arrived Monday, really handy to get the startup /running Watts of items.
I tested it on a 100W bulb first to make sure it was close to accurate, my well water pump is 1000W when pumping, Kettle is 2200W so will not be used on the generator at all, Freezer is low - runs at about 70W and lower most of the time, just need to check my internet equipment next as it runs off 2 UPS's and then lastly my pump on the stove as that's really all Id want to run apart from one or two house lights.

Waiting on the Electrician still to wire me up to the house.

Those are running currents anything with a motor will have a much higher starting current. Your freezer might draw 500 Watts or more at start up and you water pump 3000 Watts. This will only occur for a second or less at startup but you do need a bit of spare power on the system to account for it.

05-10-2020 12:17am

synchronising 4kva on the test bench. yer not still burning dinosaurs are yee?
jaysus...that's not efficient waiting 1000s of years for fuel deeeep underground is it?

mine's charged in less than a day with sunlight and sends the rest to the house and the grid after that. smells great too and i can hear myself think beside it. 80% round trip too. a little less if yer running sticky loads and low pf...what isn't. the idles not bad. 0.02 horse power no load.

07-10-2020 2:03am

I'm getting started on a bigger fuel tank. This one smells pretty good too.

maxamillius · 15-10-2020 10:22am

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

I'm getting started on a bigger fuel tank. This one smells pretty good too.

Would you document your build in a separate thread? I’d be interested to see what you have going on!!im sure others would too

15-10-2020 12:15pm

This is an interesting dilema. Do I try to protect my intellectual property so I can become a thousandaire and corner the market or do I open source so everyone can contribute and benefit from it.

In my not vast experience the ideas I'm trying to protect are not that good in the first place and the feedback is invaluable.
Besides we're all breathing the same atmosphere.
Patents are the enemy of progress.

Zing

Plenty of trade secrets I'm not mentioning. Sure, anyone can understand the principles. That doesn't mean they can build it and get the same results.

SouthWesterly · 16-10-2020 11:52pm

jamesd wrote: »

No, sparks supposed to come to me this week so hopefully.

Fitted this on the battery, shows me it's level and makes it very easy to charge.

What did the generator cost to buy and install?

I'm looking at getting one. Have 3 chest freezers which I can't afford to defrost if I have a power cut

jamesd · 18-10-2020 2:27pm

SouthWesterly wrote: »

What did the generator cost to buy and install?

I'm looking at getting one. Have 3 chest freezers which I can't afford to defrost if I have a power cut

https://ige.ie/pacini-7-5kva-silent-diesel-generator-electric-start/
Cost €1300.
Still waiting for it to be installed, my local sparks is busy for another 2 weeks and I want to wait on him to do the work as he wired my house and garage.

The Continental Op · 18-10-2020 2:54pm

jamesd wrote: »

https://ige.ie/pacini-7-5kva-silent-diesel-generator-electric-start/
Cost €1300.
Still waiting for it to be installed, my local sparks is busy for another 2 weeks and I want to wait on him to do the work as he wired my house and garage.

Sir Liamalot would run his whole house off the starter battery and throw away the generator

18-10-2020 7:42pm

Ah...have done....it was that or not see the finale of Breaking Bad.

House was a van at the time.

maxamillius · 20-10-2020 8:20pm

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

This is an interesting dilema. Do I try to protect my intellectual property so I can become a thousandaire and corner the market or do I open source so everyone can contribute and benefit from it.

In my not vast experience the ideas I'm trying to protect are not that good in the first place and the feedback is invaluable.
Besides we're all breathing the same atmosphere.
Patents are the enemy of progress.

Zing

Plenty of trade secrets I'm not mentioning. Sure, anyone can understand the principles. That doesn't mean they can build it and get the same results.

I’ll have a read of that this evening, cheers! No need to worry about me stealing any ideas, I’m just a sparks/engineer quite obsessed with electricity ðŸ˜‚

20-10-2020 10:37pm

Well I stole a lottov them from other sparks/engineers/suck it and seers. As I say we're all breathing the same atmosphere.

SouthWesterly · 20-10-2020 10:47pm

jamesd wrote: »

https://ige.ie/pacini-7-5kva-silent-diesel-generator-electric-start/
Cost €1300.
Still waiting for it to be installed, my local sparks is busy for another 2 weeks and I want to wait on him to do the work as he wired my house and garage.

A serious bit of kit. What's installation costing?

jamesd · 21-10-2020 10:31am

SouthWesterly wrote: »

A serious bit of kit. What's installation costing?

Not sure but I would guess €300 or €400 max - only guessing.

22-10-2020 9:06pm

Silent diesel 68dB @ 7m (standard measure is 1m)

I've 12kVa pushing 30dB....fan noise...they rarely get hot enough to run.

tech · 22-10-2020 9:13pm

how much is a 12KVA battery Genny from you!

22-10-2020 9:19pm

tehehehe...time or money?

I'm doing 4kVAs sychronising standalones. Modularity is deadly. RRP would be eye watering....I wheel and deal so I haven't paid much for them but to charge for them new with warranties would be near €10k per

24-11-2020 3:41am

25-11-2020 9:30pm

Back-up has been online standing by for 4 days now. 0 extra dB coming from the powerplant.
The sun refilled the fuel tank for me.
I'll turn it off in a week or two when I'm finished testing it.

No dino juice.

tech · 27-12-2020 7:27pm

jamesd wrote: »

https://ige.ie/pacini-7-5kva-silent-diesel-generator-electric-start/
Cost €1300.
Still waiting for it to be installed, my local sparks is busy for another 2 weeks and I want to wait on him to do the work as he wired my house and garage.

HI James, did you get the change over switch installed and all tested?

vmware · 24-01-2021 7:42pm

HI James, did you get the change over switch installed and all tested?

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