Alcohol Supply Laws - Dunnes Stores

caoi.mhe · 10-08-2018 12:52am #1

I was in popular Irish supermarket, Dunnes Stores, today in Cork City with a friend of mine who was buying alcohol. I never once handled the alcohol that she way buying anywhere in the store, except to maybe hold it for her for a brief second while she got her wallet, but we would have been nowhere near the till when this was done. However, when it came to paying for them, the store assistant asked for my friend's ID which is expected, we're both only 19, but she then also extremely rudely insisted that I show her mine too. I told her that I wasn't buying the alcohol and that I wasn't paying for it, my friend was, however she insisted that it was the law that I show her mine too.

Surely this isn't actually the law surrounding buying alcohol in Ireland, that they have to see the ID of every person present at the till when it's being purchased and she had no right to insist on seeing my ID as well my friend's ID? I wasn't purchasing the alcohol, I hadn't even touched it, yet she was insisting it was the law that I must show her my ID as well even thought I had nothing to do with the transaction.

If that is the case, then surely adults buying alcohol in the company of their own children shouldn't be allowed either, as none of their children have proof they are over eighteen?

I have a strong mind to go back into the store tomorrow and ask to speak to a manager about the whole ordeal. The staff member was very curt and in no way polite about it, but surely this isn't actually law?

Losty Dublin · 10-08-2018 1:30am

It is illegal to sell alcohol to under 18's and to sell to those who may supply it to under 18's. The shop was well within it's rights to ask you both for ID in this regard if they suspected that it may have been for you as well. You will find that some of the multiples sell drink to people over the age of 25 only. Some of them have tills set up to ask the staff at the till to confirm that they are old enough to purchase drink so you were lucky to have been sold drink on this instance.

Lmklad · 10-08-2018 2:20am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It is illegal to sell alcohol to under 18's and to sell to those who may supply it to under 18's. The shop was well within it's rights to ask you both for ID in this regard if they suspected that it may have been for you as well. You will find that some of the multiples sell drink to people over the age of 25 only. Some of them have tills set up to ask the staff at the till to confirm that they are old enough to purchase drink so you were lucky to have been sold drink on this instance.

As above. The store have a legal duty of care to ensure that alcohol purchased isn’t to be supplied to minors. Perfectly reasonable to ask you for ID.

L1011 · 10-08-2018 7:54am

These policies are always handled extremely poorly by staff and often even management. Aldi say they must check ID of everyone in a group "by law", cite Scottish law if you query this, and then never check kids with parents. The Scottish law in question doesn't even mention the concept as far as I remember!

TallGlass · 10-08-2018 7:58am

Always wondered about this. Surely if the alcohol is sold to you and you give it to someone else. The store is sure they have made there checks and all is above board.

If that is the case. Then they should be following people off there property and seeing where they are going with the alcohol.

Peregrinus · 10-08-2018 8:15am

There's two issues here.

The first is that if two (or more) people present themselves at the checkout carrying goods and offering payment, the shop has no way of knowing whether this is a joint purchase that they are all involved in, or a purchase by just one of them, with the others having come along to watch because why not? The question isn't answered by the fact that the credit or debit card of just one person is offered; there may be an arrnagement or understanding whereby he is to be reimursed by the others, or he may already have been put in funds by them. He may, in short, be acting as the agent of the group in entering into the contract. If it's a group purchase, and any member of the group is under 18, the shop commits an offence in selling them alcohol.

The second is that it is an offence for an over-18 year old to buy alcohol to provide to an under-18 year old. And if the circumstances suggest that that is what is happening, the shop risks being an accessory to the offence, or at least risks objections to the renewal of their licence, if they don't make investigations to exclude that possibility.

Parents with their children aren't normally buying alcohol on behalf of their children, and there's no reason to think that they are buying alcohol to give it to their children. Whereas a group of young people all turning up and one of them who is over 18 is seeking to buy alcohol, both of these situations are obviously quite possible. Hence the shop will want to take steps to prevent either possibility. That's not unreasonable.

seamus · 10-08-2018 8:46am

L1011 wrote: »

These policies are always handled extremely poorly by staff and often even management. Aldi say they must check ID of everyone in a group "by law", cite Scottish law if you query this, and then never check kids with parents. The Scottish law in question doesn't even mention the concept as far as I remember!

The holder of any licence shall not—

(a) sell or deliver or permit any person to sell or deliver intoxicating liquor to a person under the age of 18 years,

This is pretty broad, and could potentially be interpreted as an obligation on the retailer to not sell to anyone whom they have good to reason believe will or may supply that alcohol to an under-18.

When it comes to applying that rule to someone on the checkout, the legal team and the insurers won't be happy leaving it to the employee's judgement and so instead put a blanket policy in place.

If a parent comes in with a ten year old you can be reasonably sure they're not buying alcohol for them. And even if they were, it's not an offence for a parent to supply alcohol to their child in their own home. So it's a grey area.

Most likely it's all overprotective insurance and legal teams. "If someone were to get really drunk and die because their mate bought alcohol in LIDL, the parents might try and sue for negligence. So rather than deal with that bad publicity, just card everyone standing near alcohol who looks like they might be young".

TheShow · 10-08-2018 8:48am

She was being responsible and doing her job well. We need more people like this.

caoi.mhe · 10-08-2018 9:02am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It is illegal to sell alcohol to under 18's and to sell to those who may supply it to under 18's. The shop was well within it's rights to ask you both for ID in this regard if they suspected that it may have been for you as well. You will find that some of the multiples sell drink to people over the age of 25 only. Some of them have tills set up to ask the staff at the till to confirm that they are old enough to purchase drink so you were lucky to have been sold drink on this instance.

I wasn't "lucky" to be sold drink, it wasn't mine in the first place anyway. There's also no law saying you're not allowed to buy alcohol unless you're over 25, the law is you have to be over 18, technically establishments have no right to refuse you if you're over 18.

I actually work in retail myself, not a supermarket/off licence however, but in an establishment that occasionally sells alcohol throughout the year. We have never once been told to ID all parties present when someone is buying alcohol. We have to ID anyone we suspect of being under 30, yes, but if they're over 18 we can sell it to them. If a parent walked in with their teenage child I wouldn't ever dream of asking both parties for ID. If an adult was going to buy alcohol for a minor, obviously it's bad morals, but besides that, the minor isn't going to accompany them to the checkout while trying to buy the alcohol in question.

caoi.mhe · 10-08-2018 9:10am

seamus wrote: »

If a parent comes in with a ten year old you can be reasonably sure they're not buying alcohol for them. And even if they were, it's not an offence for a parent to supply alcohol to their child in their own home. So it's a grey area.

My mother has actually been refused buying alcohol before just because I was with her and didn't have any ID with me. Which is ridiculous, so they clearly only enforce half the rule whenever they feel necessary. If it was the law to have everyone present show their IDs they wouldn't be selling it to these adults with young children, regardless of their young age or not.

Peregrinus · 10-08-2018 9:15am

caoi.mhe wrote: »

I wasn't "lucky" to be sold drink, it wasn't mine in the first place anyway. There's also no law saying you're not allowed to buy alcohol unless you're over 25, the law is you have to be over 18, technically establishments have no right to refuse you if you're over 18

They do. Although discrimination between adults on the grounds of age is generally unlawful, there is an exception in the legislation relating to alcohol sales and licensed premises. Businesses are free to set a minimum sales or admission age which is higher than 18, if they wish to.

seamus · 10-08-2018 9:29am

caoi.mhe wrote: »

I wasn't "lucky" to be sold drink, it wasn't mine in the first place anyway. There's also no law saying you're not allowed to buy alcohol unless you're over 25, the law is you have to be over 18, technically establishments have no right to refuse you if you're over 18.

Actually they do.

There is nothing in the law which obliges the sale of alcohol to someone over 18. The retailer always reserves the right to not sell produce.

The equal status act requires that all adults are treated equally regardless of age, which by default means that a shop cannot sell to a 30 year old and refuse to sell to an 18 year old.

However an exemption was added in 2003, which allows licenced sellers of alcohol to implement an age policy for alcohol, provided that the policy is displayed prominently and is implemented in good faith (e.g. they don't just card travellers and leave everyone else alone).

whippet · 10-08-2018 11:11am

caoi.mhe wrote: »

the law is you have to be over 18, technically establishments have no right to refuse you if you're over 18.

if your argument is based upon this wrong assumption you are wasting your time here and with seeking out a manager to have a rant at.

Also .. you might want to get your story straight before confronting a manager

caoi.mhe wrote: »

I never once handled the alcohol that she way buying anywhere in the store,

never once?

caoi.mhe wrote: »

except to maybe hold it for her for a brief second while she got her wallet

but you never touched it?

caoi.mhe wrote: »

I wasn't purchasing the alcohol, I hadn't even touched it, y

In all fairness .. the cashier is looking at two young people (possibly underage) walking with alcohol to the counter .. one hands the booze to the other - as they are getting their wallet out .. of course the cashier will want to check that both parties are of legal age to purchase the booze.

caoi.mhe · 10-08-2018 1:05pm

whippet wrote: »

if your argument is based upon this wrong assumption you are wasting your time here and with seeking out a manager to have a rant at.

Also .. you might want to get your story straight before confronting a manager

never once?

but you never touched it?

In all fairness .. the cashier is looking at two young people (possibly underage) walking with alcohol to the counter .. one hands the booze to the other - as they are getting their wallet out .. of course the cashier will want to check that both parties are of legal age to purchase the booze.

If you had quoted the correct part of the post you'd know that I said I might have handled it for a second while she got her wallet but I explicitly stated it wasn't anywhere near the till point. I had nothing to do with the transaction, I was merely standing near the checkout with my friend.

seamus · 10-08-2018 1:10pm

caoi.mhe wrote: »

If you had quoted the correct part of the post you'd know that I said I might have handled it for a second while she got her wallet but I explicitly stated it wasn't anywhere near the till point. I had nothing to do with the transaction, I was merely standing near the checkout with my friend.

It's kind of irrelevant anyway.

The retailer is perfectly entitled to do this.

mooonpie · 10-08-2018 1:31pm

From what I've experienced previously, this is company policy.

About 8 years ago, I (22 year old lad) was in Dunnes with my 14 year old sister on a Saturday morning buying ingredients for tiramisu - including a bottle of dark rum. As it happens, my sister was doing the baking so I guess I was technically buying booze for her, but I digress.

At the till, we were both asked to provide ID. I thought the cashier was being friendly and having a joke with my clearly underage sister ... but turns out she was deadly serious. She politely explained it was store policy and offered to call a manager, an offer which I accepted. I got the impression she wasn't too enthused by the policy

The manager was equally polite and explained their hands were tied, accepted it was quite likely, based on the other purchases, that I was buying the rum for baking with ... and not in fact for my sister to down as soon as we left the shop, but apologised and stood firm by their decision.

I talked out a few hypothetical scenarios with the cashier and manager:
* If my sister was in the car - obviously no problem
* If my sister was in shop, but not at the till - not a problem
* If my sister was in line, but with my mother or father - not a problem (I think the exact reasoning was "That's different, they're her parents" ??? )
* If I paid for everything except the rum, left the rum at the till, brought my sister and the shopping to the car, and returned alone to purchase the rum - not a problem, they'd even keep the rum aside for me at the till.

With that last scenario, we all accepted it was a bit of a daft policy ... and the cashier continued to apologise while explaining she had to follow the policy when I came back alone to pay for the rum ~ 2 minutes later.

caoi.mhe · 10-08-2018 1:53pm

mooonpie wrote: »

From what I've experienced previously, this is company policy.

About 8 years ago, I (22 year old lad) was in Dunnes with my 14 year old sister on a Saturday morning buying ingredients for tiramisu - including a bottle of dark rum. As it happens, my sister was doing the baking so I guess I was technically buying booze for her, but I digress.

At the till, we were both asked to provide ID. I thought the cashier was being friendly and having a joke with my clearly underage sister ... but turns out she was deadly serious. She politely explained it was store policy and offered to call a manager, an offer which I accepted. I got the impression she wasn't too enthused by the policy

The manager was equally polite and explained their hands were tied, accepted it was quite likely, based on the other purchases, that I was buying the rum for baking with ... and not in fact for my sister to down as soon as we left the shop, but apologised and stood firm by their decision.

I talked out a few hypothetical scenarios with the cashier and manager:
* If my sister was in the car - obviously no problem
* If my sister was in shop, but not at the till - not a problem
* If my sister was in line, but with my mother or father - not a problem (I think the exact reasoning was "That's different, they're her parents" ??? )
* If I paid for everything except the rum, left the rum at the till, brought my sister and the shopping to the car, and returned alone to purchase the rum - not a problem, they'd even keep the rum aside for me at the till.

With that last scenario, we all accepted it was a bit of a daft policy ... and the cashier continued to apologise while explaining she had to follow the policy when I came back alone to pay for the rum ~ 2 minutes later.

It's an absolutely ridiculous policy. I was thinking exactly the same, had I left the shop before her or went to pay for something myself at a different till, she wouldn't have followed me out of the shop and asked for my ID or asked me for it at a different till where I wasn't purchasing alcohol.

The line "that's different, they're her parents" is hilarious beyond belief ðŸ˜‚ are they going to start asking for birth certificates now too to prove that they're your parents? Absolutely ludicrous, it's such a half assed policy that is only enforced when they want to enforce it.

seamus · 10-08-2018 3:02pm

mooonpie wrote: »

With that last scenario, we all accepted it was a bit of a daft policy

caoi.mhe wrote: »

It's an absolutely ridiculous policy

As I say above, this is mostly just arse covering by the company.

Two girls rock up to the till, the company asks both for ID and they can say "we made a reasonable effort to prevent the supply of alcohol to a minor."

One girl is outside? "Didn't know she was there, not my fault"
Girls go to different tills? "Didn't know they were together, not my fault"
Girl with her parent? "Reckoned it was her mother, not my fault".

Whatever is the bare minimum they need to do to avoid getting sued.

If you don't like it, shop somewhere else. Or stand outside while your mate is buying booze

Peregrinus · 11-08-2018 1:41am

caoi.mhe wrote: »

It's an absolutely ridiculous policy. I was thinking exactly the same, had I left the shop before her or went to pay for something myself at a different till, she wouldn't have followed me out of the shop and asked for my ID or asked me for it at a different till where I wasn't purchasing alcohol.

The line "that's different, they're her parents" is hilarious beyond belief �� are they going to start asking for birth certificates now too to prove that they're your parents? Absolutely ludicrous, it's such a half assed policy that is only enforced when they want to enforce it.

Moonpie's story shows, surely, that they enforce it fairly consistently?

Samuel T. Cogley · 11-08-2018 5:33pm

Wondered when this thread would get it's 6 monthly airing. Garda age card the only defence for off licences etc.

CiniO · 11-08-2018 6:29pm

And what about ID requirements?

I work for company which employs plenty of young foreign people (in their early 20's) who live in employers premisses in rural location and we offer them a lift in a bus to town for their shopping/socialising. As I usually drive them there, I've seen multiple times many of them were refused purchase of alcohol in supermarkets due to them only having their national ID issued by other EU countries.
Till person was requesting passport or Garda age card and saying that Romanian, Polish or French national ID is not good enough. Is this legal?

Samuel T. Cogley · 11-08-2018 7:39pm

CiniO wrote: »

And what about ID requirements?

I work for company which employs plenty of young foreign people (in their early 20's) who live in employers premisses in rural location and we offer them a lift in a bus to town for their shopping/socialising. As I usually drive them there, I've seen multiple times many of them were refused purchase of alcohol in supermarkets due to them only having their national ID issued by other EU countries.
Till person was requesting passport or Garda age card and saying that Romanian, Polish or French national ID is not good enough. Is this legal?

Not the passport, but the Garda age card covers them. I expect the passport has crept in as they can be as sure as possible it's the person whose document it is. They can't be as sure with other EU passports.

Bottom line is the onle defence is that a garda age card was presented.

13-08-2018 1:05pm

Just curious if anyone knows how to resolve this issue; I am 37 and routinely get refused tobacco at one particular shop (also a chain supermarket). When asked for ID I always reply that I don't carry ID, I am 37. I asked if they really thought I was under 18? They said no, they didn't think I was under 18, but if you are under 25 you are required to show ID. But I am not under 25.

I refuse to actually give them ID by now, because of the ludicrousness of the situation. I just buy tobacco elsewhere. But where does the rule become blurred on this under 25s thing?

Lmklad · 13-08-2018 1:07pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

CiniO wrote: »

And what about ID requirements?

I work for company which employs plenty of young foreign people (in their early 20's) who live in employers premisses in rural location and we offer them a lift in a bus to town for their shopping/socialising. As I usually drive them there, I've seen multiple times many of them were refused purchase of alcohol in supermarkets due to them only having their national ID issued by other EU countries.
Till person was requesting passport or Garda age card and saying that Romanian, Polish or French national ID is not good enough. Is this legal?

Not the passport, but the Garda age card covers them. I expect the passport has crept in as they can be as sure as possible it's the person whose document it is. They can't be as sure with other EU passports.

Bottom line is the onle defence is that a garda age card was presented.

The three acceptable forms of ID under the liquor licensing act are the Garda age card, passport or drivers licence.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 13-08-2018 1:12pm

its a policy thing if they think you look u25 you need to be ided.

an old looking 18 year old can be mistaken by 25 apparently.

TheChizler · 13-08-2018 1:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Just curious if anyone knows how to resolve this issue; I am 37 and routinely get refused tobacco at one particular shop (also a chain supermarket). When asked for ID I always reply that I don't carry ID, I am 37. I asked if they really thought I was under 18? They said no, they didn't think I was under 18, but if you are under 25 you are required to show ID. But I am not under 25.

I refuse to actually give them ID by now, because of the ludicrousness of the situation. I just buy tobacco elsewhere. But where does the rule become blurred on this under 25s thing?

That's the shops own policy, and it's not if you factually are under 25, it's if you look under 25. As ciaran says above the assumption is that a 17 year old can look up to 25, so card everyone who looks up to that to be safe. The resolution is to carry ID if you want to buy tobacco there, or just don't go there.

seamus · 13-08-2018 1:19pm

Deleted User wrote: »

They said no, they didn't think I was under 18, but if you are under 25 you are required to show ID. But I am not under 25.

I refuse to actually give them ID by now, because of the ludicrousness of the situation. I just buy tobacco elsewhere. But where does the rule become blurred on this under 25s thing?

The policy generally if you look under 25. How are you supposed to prove you're not under 25 unless you show ID?

I think shops choose 25 so that they can take a more rigid approach to carding people. Plenty of 14 years olds can make themselves look 18, but making themselves look 25 or even 30 is much harder.

So even if someone looks over 18, shops can still stick to their guns and ask to see ID.

But the reason they have an age at all, is to give them a get-out clause at the far end - why did you ask me for ID and not the granny in front me?

"That's not ageism sir, I just think you look younger than 25, whereas she clearly isn't".

13-08-2018 1:21pm

I find it pretty amusing that they have said they don't believe I am under 18, but refuse me all the same. I did also ask if they really thought a 17 year old would claim to be 37? Aren't they more likely to say they are 18, maybe 19? They agreed with me on that, too! Sheer idiocy if you ask me.

TheChizler · 13-08-2018 1:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I find it pretty amusing that they have said they don't believe I am under 18, but refuse me all the same. I did also ask if they really thought a 17 year old would claim to be 37? Aren't they more likely to say they are 18, maybe 19? They agreed with me on that, too! Sheer idiocy if you ask me.

Yes, but they believe you look under 26, so if they didn't look for ID they'd be going against policy and leaving themselves open to disciplinary action. Nobody wants to get fired over something as small as that.

sexmag · 13-08-2018 4:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I find it pretty amusing that they have said they don't believe I am under 18, but refuse me all the same. I did also ask if they really thought a 17 year old would claim to be 37? Aren't they more likely to say they are 18, maybe 19? They agreed with me on that, too! Sheer idiocy if you ask me.

Well by not giving them business you are showing them how their policy is effecting them and if enough people stop going maybe they will review it.

Just thank yourself lucky you dont live in the states, everyone and absolutely everyone gets carded

Under His Eye · 13-08-2018 4:23pm

Lmklad wrote: »

The three acceptable forms of ID under the liquor licensing act are the Garda age card, passport or drivers licence.

No specification on who has issued the Driving Licence or Passport.

sexmag · 13-08-2018 4:34pm

Under His Eye wrote: »

No specification on who has issued the Driving Licence or Passport.

No I don't think so but then if the store selling the alcohol is not familiar with the driving license or passport they can ask for another form of Id, onus is on the purchaser prove they are of age

Under His Eye · 13-08-2018 4:38pm

Fair enough.

I used to work in law enforcement stateside and we had a book of all ID types issued throughout the 50 states and territories. Very handy for checking out of state documents.

Samuel T. Cogley · 13-08-2018 5:03pm

Lmklad wrote: »

The three acceptable forms of ID under the liquor licensing act are the Garda age card, passport or drivers licence.

Show me where. Do a search for repeated threads on this matter. The legislation was amended.

Samuel T. Cogley · 13-08-2018 5:07pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Yes, but they believe you look under 26, so if they didn't look for ID they'd be going against policy and leaving themselves open to disciplinary action. Nobody wants to get fired over something as small as that.

He might just look young rather than being small!

Eric Cartman · 13-08-2018 6:32pm

I find it comes down to whats being purchased and what it looks like the intent is.

buying a load of bargain vodka / cider / lager / alcopops, as in more than enough for 1 person then you'll be id'd as its pretty obvious.

going up to the counter with say a 4-6 pack of premium beer or not a naggin of premium spirits and most places will let you away.

rocking up to dunnes counter with a bottle of their cheapest vodka or 24 cans of whatever beer is on special / cheapest will have them asking for ID for anyone looking under 25. Similarly alcopops/pre mixed cans / anything thats 5% alcohol 95% bright colours and sugar is definitely going to get you id'd . and to be fair most of the time they're not wrong.

Corruptedmorals · 13-08-2018 10:58pm

If you sell alcohol to a minor in Dunnes you are fired. It's written in to the contracts, there are no warnings first. That's why the staff are invested in following 'think 25' policies because their jobs are on the line. I would put money that Tesco's contracts say the exact same thing.

When I worked there I sold clothes and never ever worked in the supermarket part. But every 3 months we were retrained on the sale of alcohol policy anyway. It definitely mentioned IDing friends/companions and being vigilant about teenagers gathering outside or in the car park with the express intention of asking others to buy them drink etc. It makes sense to ID a friend, it is not clear if the alcohol is for the purchaser or the 17 year old mate. It makes absolutely no sense at all to ID a 10 year old whose parent puts wine into the weekly shop.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 13-08-2018 11:29pm

Under His Eye wrote: »

Fair enough.

I used to work in law enforcement stateside and we had a book of all ID types issued throughout the 50 states and territories. Very handy for checking out of state documents.

Very good book im sure, does it cover ethiopia, south africa, brazil, syria and argentina (last 5 threads i remember on where a non national complained that their passport wasnt accepted as id)

Lmklad · 13-08-2018 11:36pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Lmklad wrote: »

The three acceptable forms of ID under the liquor licensing act are the Garda age card, passport or drivers licence.

Show me where. Do a search for repeated threads on this matter. The legislation was amended.

Here ya go,

Intoxicating Liqour Act 1988 as amended by Intoxicating Liquor Act 2008

Section 34(a) (2) For the purposes of subsection (1) of this section ‘age document’ means a document containing a photograph of the person in respect of whom it was issued and information that enables the age of the person to be determined and being one of the following documents relating to a person referred to in that subsection:

(a) an age card referred to in section 40 of this Act,

(b) a passport,

(c) an identity card issued by a member state of the European Communities,

(d) a driver licence, or

(e) a document issued by a body, and in a form, prescribed by regulations made by the Minister.

14-08-2018 12:40am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

He might just look young rather than being small!

SHE is both!

Samuel T. Cogley · 14-08-2018 7:38am

Lmklad wrote: »

Here ya go,

Intoxicating Liqour Act 1988 as amended by Intoxicating Liquor Act 2008

Section 34(a) (2) For the purposes of subsection (1) of this section ‘age document’ means a document containing a photograph of the person in respect of whom it was issued and information that enables the age of the person to be determined and being one of the following documents relating to a person referred to in that subsection:

(a) an age card referred to in section 40 of this Act,

(b) a passport,

(c) an identity card issued by a member state of the European Communities,

(d) a driver licence, or

(e) a document issued by a body, and in a form, prescribed by regulations made by the Minister.

As far as I can see that's licenced premisses not off licences.

EDIT: Let me do a search when I get home otherwise I'm going to be late for work! :pac:

c6ysaphjvqw41k · 14-08-2018 8:03am

This post has been deleted.

Lmklad · 14-08-2018 10:17am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

As far as I can see that's licenced premisses not off licences.

EDIT: Let me do a search when I get home otherwise I'm going to be late for work! :pac:

“Off licence” is a licensed premises, it’s an off licence as opposed to an on licence. The Act applies to all alcohol merchants.

ohnonotgmail · 14-08-2018 10:24am

Lmklad wrote: »

Here ya go,

Intoxicating Liqour Act 1988 as amended by Intoxicating Liquor Act 2008

Section 34(a) (2) For the purposes of subsection (1) of this section ‘age document’ means a document containing a photograph of the person in respect of whom it was issued and information that enables the age of the person to be determined and being one of the following documents relating to a person referred to in that subsection:

(a) an age card referred to in section 40 of this Act,

(b) a passport,

(c) an identity card issued by a member state of the European Communities,

(d) a driver licence, or

(e) a document issued by a body, and in a form, prescribed by regulations made by the Minister.

Section 34 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act refers to children on licenced premises. The first part of the section you quoted makes this clear

34A.—(1) The holder of a licence of any licensed premises shall not allow a person who is aged at least 18 years but under the age of 21 years to be in the bar of those premises between 9.00 p.m. and 10.30 a.m. on the following day (12.30 p.m. if the following day is a Sunday) if the person does not produce an age document to the holder.

the section relating to the selling of alcohols to those under 18 is section 31. For this section production of an Age Card seem to be the only defence

Originally having reasonable grounds to believe that a person was over 18 was also sufficient

Original Act

31.—(1) The holder of any licence shall not—

(4) In any proceedings against a person for a contravention of subsection (1) or (2) of this section, it shall be a defence for such person to prove that the person in respect of whom the charge is brought produced to him an age card relating to such person or that he had other reasonable grounds for believing that such person was over the age of 18 years, or, if the person is charged with permitting another person to sell or deliver intoxicating liquor contrary to the said subsection (1) or (2), to prove that an age card was produced by the person concerned to that other person or that that other person had other reasonable grounds for believing as aforesaid.

But this was amended to Age Cards only in 2000 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2000/act/17/section/14/enacted/en/html#sec14

“(4) In any proceedings for a contravention of subsection (1) or (2) of this section, it shall be a defence for the defendant to prove that the person in respect of whom the charge is brought produced to him or her an age card relating to that person or, if the defendant is charged with permitting another person to sell or deliver intoxicating liquor contrary to either of those subsections, to prove that an age card relating to the person to whom the intoxicating liquor was sold or delivered was produced by that person to that other person.”.

Lmklad · 14-08-2018 10:30am

“Other reasonable grounds for believing”

The age card is specifically mentioned as it is the only document specifically designed to allow for the purchase or consumption of alcohol from on or off licences. Other reasonable grounds will be fulfilled by the production of the other prescribed forms of acceptable ID.

Peregrinus · 14-08-2018 10:35am

Lmklad wrote: »

“Other reasonable grounds for believing”

The age card is specifically mentioned as it is the only document specifically designed to allow for the purchase or consumption of alcohol from on or off licences. Other reasonable grounds will be fulfilled by the production of the other prescribed forms of acceptable ID.

Ohnonotgmail's point is that the "other reasonable grounds" language was deleted by amendment in 2000. Since then, only the age card provides a defence.

CiniO · 14-08-2018 2:29pm

Lmklad wrote: »

The three acceptable forms of ID under the liquor licensing act are the Garda age card, passport or drivers licence.

That would unable many young people from EU (tourists, students, workers, etc) from buying alcohol here, as they might not hold any of those documents.

Lmklad wrote: »

Here ya go,

Intoxicating Liqour Act 1988 as amended by Intoxicating Liquor Act 2008

Section 34(a) (2) For the purposes of subsection (1) of this section ‘age document’ means a document containing a photograph of the person in respect of whom it was issued and information that enables the age of the person to be determined and being one of the following documents relating to a person referred to in that subsection:

(a) an age card referred to in section 40 of this Act,

(b) a passport,

(c) an identity card issued by a member state of the European Communities,

(d) a driver licence, or

(e) a document issued by a body, and in a form, prescribed by regulations made by the Minister.

But from what you're saying here, EU national ID's should be accepted.

So are the stores that refuse to accept Polish, Romanian, French, German, etc national ID card as proof of age, breaking above legislation?

ohnonotgmail · 14-08-2018 2:36pm

CiniO wrote: »

That would unable many young people from EU (tourists, students, workers, etc) from buying alcohol here, as they might not hold any of those documents.

But from what you're saying here, EU national ID's should be accepted.

So are the stores that refuse to accept Polish, Romanian, French, German, etc national ID card as proof of age, breaking above legislation?

as i already posted he took this from the wrong section. The only acceptable defence to a charge of selling alcohol to a minor is the production of an age card.

Samuel T. Cogley · 14-08-2018 9:29pm

Note 'age card' and 'age document'. EU nationals etc. can buy in pubs with the appropriate age document.

Fair play for finding it I was struggling to say the least. I don't have consolidated legislation anymore, so I can see how anyone can get things mixed up.

Edit: I think I've just made the same mistake. It's on the premises vs. actually buying?

ohnonotgmail · 14-08-2018 9:50pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Note 'age card' and 'age document'. EU nationals etc. can buy in pubs with the appropriate age document.

Fair play for finding it I was struggling to say the least. I don't have consolidated legislation anymore, so I can see how anyone can get things mixed up.

Edit: I think I've just made the same mistake. It's on the premises vs. actually buying?

it is age card only for buying alcohol.

Monumental · 14-08-2018 10:09pm

My seventeen year old grandson looks eighteen perhaps nineteen ,if he is at a checkout with a young person who may have id I would be more than happy that his id is also required He is allowed have a drink but in a controlled situation Well done to the sales assistant who questioned them

Alcohol Supply Laws - Dunnes Stores

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