IE to lease UK fleet?

L1011 · 10-02-2019 2:54am

That is quite possibly the tackiest "premium" cabin I've seen on any transport mode in quite some time. And it is just a cabin, there are no further services offered. From experience on TPE services, "first class is suspended, please contact Trans Pennine Express for a refund" is far from an uncommon occurrence also! Leading to people standing in the slightly offset aisle, holding on to those handles on top of the seats.

highdef · 10-02-2019 10:07am

L1011 wrote: »

That is quite possibly the tackiest "premium" cabin I've seen on any transport mode in quite some time. And it is just a cabin, there are no further services offered. From experience on TPE services, "first class is suspended, please contact Trans Pennine Express for a refund" is far from an uncommon occurrence also! Leading to people standing in the slightly offset aisle, holding on to those handles on top of the seats.

You mean, when first class is suspended, commuters are not even allowed to sit on the seats? They must stand beside them? I really cannot see that happening. And what's the big deal about standing in a slightly offset aisle. Is that an OCD thing you have about not being in a central position?

devnull · 10-02-2019 11:26am

L1011 wrote: »

That is quite possibly the tackiest "premium" cabin I've seen on any transport mode in quite some time. And it is just a cabin, there are no further services offered. From experience on TPE services, "first class is suspended, please contact Trans Pennine Express for a refund" is far from an uncommon occurrence also! Leading to people standing in the slightly offset aisle, holding on to those handles on top of the seats.

Actually there are reading lights, plug sockets at each seat, slightly better Wifi and complimentary refreshments on a lot of services as well as more leg-room, 2+1 seating, a dedicated luggage rack and the First Class area has a door to isolate it from the rest of the train and to prevent noise.

It's not going to be out of this world because that would take capacity from the standard class passengers which is very much needed and unfortunately this train operator in particular was blocked from adding extra capacity for only a year or two off a decade, despite being asked to run extra services.

I've also never seen what you describe in relation to First Class being suspended and I've took about 10 journeys in the last 12 month on both the south and the North Transpennine services at peak times, so maybe you were just unlucky.

L1011 · 10-02-2019 1:49pm

highdef wrote: »

You mean, when first class is suspended, commuters are not even allowed to sit on the seats? They must stand beside them? I really cannot see that happening. And what's the big deal about standing in a slightly offset aisle. Is that an OCD thing you have about not being in a central position?

No, as in all the seats are full and the aisles are full too. So effectively all the crushed passengers are getting is the 'thrill' of an aisle in a different place!

SeanW · 10-02-2019 7:40pm

If IE gets their hands on some Class 185s, surely they would be used on long distance services (Sligo, Rosslare, maybe Dundalk) and free up the 29000s running those services for Maynooth, M3 Parkway etc?

Ireland trains · 10-02-2019 9:51pm

Do irish rail use a 29000 on a rosslare service for capacity because if not then why dont they just swap it with a m3 parkway/maynooth icr

Thrashssacre · 11-02-2019 9:24am

Ireland trains wrote: »

Do irish rail use a 29000 on a rosslare service for capacity because if not then why dont they just swap it with a m3 parkway/maynooth icr

The services which use a 29000 are very busy 3 or 4 car irc wouldn't cope

Thrashssacre · 11-02-2019 4:11pm

Any particular reason hsts weren't considered granted there borderline aincent now but scotrail were happy enough to take some, surely they'd provide greater capacity and passanger comfort.

Ireland trains · 11-02-2019 6:09pm

Irish rail need commuter/suburban trains.
Not intercity trains

Ireland trains · 11-02-2019 6:10pm

Irish rail need commuter/suburban trains.
Not intercity trains

Ireland trains · 11-02-2019 6:10pm

Irish rail need commuter/suburban trains.
Not intercity trains

Ireland trains · 11-02-2019 6:10pm

Irish rail need commuter/suburban trains.
Not intercity trains

SeanW · 11-02-2019 9:23pm

Quad posting FTW. But Irish Rail is still sending 29000 class railcars to Sligo, Rosslare and on long distance commuter runs like Longford and Dundalk. They need IC cars to put on those services and free up the 29000s for Maynooth, M3 Parkway and so on. If not Intercity cars to free up the 29000s, they need at least some proper regional railcars.

Dats me · 12-02-2019 12:10am

Is a 29000 carriage higher capacity than a 22000 carriage? If so, why?

I presumed it was because commuter trains allowed standing space like on DARTs but a poster said above that 29000 isn't designed for standing.

devnull · 12-02-2019 12:16am

Dats me wrote: »

Is a 29000 carriage higher capacity than a 22000 carriage? If so, why?

I presumed it was because commuter trains allowed standing space like on DARTs but a poster said above that 29000 isn't designed for standing.

Well if a 29000 isn't designed for standing then I hate to think what the dozens of people in every carriage I see who are not seated are doing in rush hour!

loyatemu · 12-02-2019 10:30am

29000s must be due a refurb - the one I was on yesterday I could see the rusty metal plates under the floor and feel them moving under my foot.

L1011 · 12-02-2019 10:56am

Dats me wrote: »

Is a 29000 carriage higher capacity than a 22000 carriage? If so, why?

I presumed it was because commuter trains allowed standing space like on DARTs but a poster said above that 29000 isn't designed for standing.

Its the 22000s that are not designed for the scale of standing they have. Small irregularly shaped vestibules with insufficient cooling/air circulation.

29000s have no vestibules, double leaf doors at thirds, less seats and more standing, and I think have wider aisles (narrower seats). They have significantly more capacity and lower dwell times on commuter services. But they are noisy and run down from a decade and a half of heavy use

Praetorian · 12-02-2019 12:09pm

I'm just a very casual observer, but why would IE be leasing over buying? Is it the only way to get capacity quickly?

Would these be 2nd hand units?

With the long term plan being to electrify some of the routes around Dublin, would this not free up a lot of dmu's for other work? I assume this isn't happening fast enough for the extra capacity needed now?

loyatemu · 12-02-2019 1:53pm

Praetorian wrote: »

I'm just a very casual observer, but why would IE be leasing over buying? Is it the only way to get capacity quickly?

It's quicker - otherwise they have to wait for trains to be built.

Would these be 2nd hand units?

Yeah, from the UK probably

With the long term plan being to electrify some of the routes around Dublin, would this not free up a lot of dmu's for other work? I assume this isn't happening fast enough for the extra capacity needed now?

some of the new trains are going to be bi-mode so they'll be electric where there are wires, and diesel-electric where there are not. This will allow the increase of services in advance of electrification. Existing diesel stock will probably cascade onto regional services but a lot of the carriages will probably have to be refurbished in the shortish-term.

man98 · 16-02-2019 7:51pm

There's talk in Inchicore that we may be seeing some British Mk 4 rolling stock, or perhaps Spanish Mk 5. Plenty of Mk 4s being replaced at the moment, but I would imagine the strategy with this would be to take ICRs from Intercity routes for commuter rail - unless they intend to refit coaches for high intensity use. Any coach would have to be push/ pulled, so IÉ would have to do a complete refurbishment to their mothballed locos.

devnull · 16-02-2019 8:03pm

man98 wrote: »

There's talk in Inchicore that we may be seeing some British Mk 4 rolling stock, or perhaps Spanish Mk 5. Plenty of Mk 4s being replaced at the moment,

There's not a single MK4 that has been replaced yet - they are all still in service as the new Hitachi trains are not ready quite yet to take over the mantle from them and in any case the first two rakes to be replaced with Hitachi trains are going to Wales for the expansion of services down there.

Also MK5s are new trains which are still under testing in the UK built by CAF - there is no way the brand new trains earmarked to replace older trains will be diverted to Ireland, unless you are talking about something else operating in Spain I'm not aware of, but modifying these for Irish use will be much more complicated that modifying British units.

ICRs are not suitable for commuter operations and honestly adding them onto commuter services should be a last resort as they simply don't have the capacity or standing ability that a proper commuter unit would have.

man98 · 16-02-2019 9:48pm

devnull wrote: »

There's not a single MK4 that has been replaced yet - they are all still in service as the new Hitachi trains are not ready quite yet to take over the mantle from them and in any case the first two rakes to be replaced with Hitachi trains are going to Wales for the expansion of services down there.

Also MK5s are new trains which are still under testing in the UK built by CAF - there is no way the brand new trains earmarked to replace older trains will be diverted to Ireland, unless you are talking about something else operating in Spain I'm not aware of, but modifying these for Irish use will be much more complicated that modifying British units.

ICRs are not suitable for commuter operations and honestly adding them onto commuter services should be a last resort as they simply don't have the capacity or standing ability that a proper commuter unit would have.

The whole idea of reintroducing locos to alleviate a capacity issue which mainly affects commuter lines is bizarre really, but this is what I was told. IEPs in Britain have had their fair share of teething issues, but I would imagine a small rake of coaches could be made available so maybe it was a bit of a 'hail mary' tender by the lessor, and that they would take them as a last resort. However I suspect that if that's the only bid they'd extend the tendering process. Ideally they should be looking for a medium distance commuter workhorse which will act as a stopgap until 2030, when we'll probably see the next big tranche of stock replacement.

Jamie2k9 · 16-02-2019 10:55pm

man98 wrote: »

There's talk in Inchicore that we may be seeing some British Mk 4 rolling stock, or perhaps Spanish Mk 5. Plenty of Mk 4s being replaced at the moment, but I would imagine the strategy with this would be to take ICRs from Intercity routes for commuter rail - unless they intend to refit coaches for high intensity use. Any coach would have to be push/ pulled, so IÉ would have to do a complete refurbishment to their mothballed locos.

Well unless they get a few class 66 and fit out the DVTs with Generators it has no chance. As for the Mk5 I hope not, the poor reliability and even under utilisation of the Mk4 fleet today should be a lesson. Fancy new Mk5s won't change that!

dowlingm · 17-02-2019 4:07pm

Could always acquire the former Nightstar trains (called Renaissance in VIA Rail Canada service) which are about to be replaced by Siemens trainsets. There, um, might be a bitta rust here and there

The mention of the DBSO/Gatwicks (were they not scrapped after being left to rot all those years) does bring up a salient point though - any foreign stock would likely require significant mods - not just track regauging but compatibility with signals, train radio, maybe some accessibility mods. Depending on how well or how badly done that is, you could end up with a bake. Better to ensure you are making best use of what you have before going shopping (glances meaningfully at Nenagh Branch)

GM228 · 27-02-2019 8:31pm

With the Tender submission deadline being reached yesterday, here is the latest from Modern Railways:-

IRISH BACKSTOP: '185' MULLED FOR IE

A PROCUREMENT process led by the Irish National Transport Authority could see redundant Class 185 DMUs from the UK heading for Irish Rail (IE) when released by TransPennine Express.

With an urgent need for additional capacity the NTA is seeking the provision of 'pre-owned diesel multiple-unit vehicles for passenger operation on the Irish Rail network. The invitation to tender document indicates that the provision of the vehicles is intended to be either through a lease agreement, with a term of seven years or more, or through 'purchase by the contracting authority or by Irish Rail acting as their nominated agent'.

The NTA says it is looking for between 60 and 80 vehicles ‘which must be capable of operation in units of three or four vehicles with a drivers cab at each end of each unit’ and that they must be available for delivery prior to 28 February 2020. The estimated total value (excluding VAT) of the contract is €100 million.

With the network in Ireland configured for vehicles similar in width and height to those operated in the UK, options are considered to be fairly limited and certainly units constructed for operators in mainland Europe would be too large to be considered.

New trains currently under construction for TPE will see 22x3 car ‘185s’ (66 vehicles) returned to Eversholt Rail, and with the operator having stated its 220 brand new carriages ‘will be introduced by 2020’ the delivery date could be met, although work to change the gauge of the sets from the standard 1,435mm to the 1,600mm gauge of the Irish Rail network is expected to take some time to complete. Industry sources suggest the cost of the conversion, with three bogies, or six axles, featuring hydraulic final drives, will be a key factor in the process.

However, current industry trends suggests redeployment options in the UK are limited. The Class 185s have a planned lifetime of 35 years, they entered service in 2006 and have plenty of operational life remaining. The end date for expression of interest was 26 February, with the NTA indicating it expected to dispatch invitations to tender to selected candidates towards the end of March.

Not sure where the 3 bogies/6 axles come from, obviously a typo.

Isambard · 27-02-2019 9:09pm

2 car articulated units?

GM228 · 27-02-2019 9:15pm

Isambard wrote: »

2 car articulated units?

The 185s are not articulated.

devnull · 27-02-2019 9:15pm

Isambard wrote: »

2 car articulated units?

They're not articulated, but the Desiro City and some other Desiro variants used in mainland Europe and the new Mireo is.

kc56 · 27-02-2019 11:44pm

GM228 wrote: »

With the Tender submission deadline being reached yesterday, here is the latest from Modern Railways:-

Not sure where the 3 bogies/6 axles come from, obviously a typo.

3 car sets have 6 bogies. 3 are trailer, 3 are powered, one each on each car just like the 29K,22K. It's the powered ones they're referring to as re-gauging is more complex for the driving axels.

GM228 · 28-02-2019 1:09am

kc56 wrote: »

3 car sets have 6 bogies. 3 are trailer, 3 are powered, one each on each car just like the 29K,22K. It's the powered ones they're referring to as re-gauging is more complex for the driving axels.

Yes of course was missing that point, but it would be no more "complex" than a standard wheel change.

Siemens already produce the SF5000 bogie used on the 185s for 1,600mm gauge and SFAIK a re-gauge is possible within the existing bogie frame as both gauge versions use the same frame specifications meaning complete new bogies are not required, this would be an issue of cost, not complexity.

highdef · 05-03-2019 10:50pm

Could be just me but these trains seem so quiet for a diesel, except when passing through from carriage to carriage, where the traction motors make quite a noise.

BTW, imagine if 1st class was declassified and left as is

devnull · 05-03-2019 11:04pm

Another thing about these is they were designed for very hilly routes so are more highly powered than most DMU units and have an engine on each car, which leads to them being a bit more fuel hungry.

However Siemens developed an eco-mode which allows one or more of the engines to be switched off when they are not needed, automatic shutdown at depots and the provision of a train management system to advise drivers when they do not need to use all three engines.

The other thing about these units is they are reliable starters from cold and as such there's no real reason to leave them idling for long periods, like you often see with the 29k class. When TPE introduced these it was a culture shock for many of the drivers as they were use to having to leave trains in idle or risk them not starting!

Jamie2k9 · 08-04-2019 8:59pm

This article implies only 40 not 80 coaches will be leased next year.

https://www.leinsterleader.ie/news/news/374714/kildare-tds-raise-issues-with-irish-rail-officials.html

devnull · 08-04-2019 9:00pm

Is the 40 not talking about the extra ICR coaches?

Jamie2k9 · 08-04-2019 9:01pm

devnull wrote: »

Is the 40 not talking about the extra ICR coaches?

They are not due until 2021/2022. Tender not even issued yet for them.

L1011 · 08-04-2019 9:21pm

FF TD getting something hideously wrong, particularly if it sounds positive coming up to locals, is not beyond the realm of possibilities...

GM228 · 09-04-2019 3:32pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They are not due until 2021/2022. Tender not even issued yet for them.

No tender required for the 41 centre cars, no contract signed yet however.

Regarding leasing no decisions have been made yet, IE are currently undertaking a future fleet assessment (which should have been completed late 2018) which will determine what happens next and also the specifications of the BMU tender (which is also behind schedule).

tabbey · 09-04-2019 8:46pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

This article implies only 40 not 80 coaches will be leased next year.

https://www.leinsterleader.ie/news/news/374714/kildare-tds-raise-issues-with-irish-rail-officials.html

Interesting that a Kildare paper illustrates its article with a picture of Carrick on Shannon station.

They just pluck these images from a catalogue regardless of the issue.

Hotblack Desiato · 09-04-2019 10:10pm

tabbey wrote: »

They just pluck these images from a catalogue regardless of the issue.

The online Irish Times often uses the same picture to illustrate any article about Aer Lingus.

It shows Aer Lingus BAe146s and Boeing 737s, so was taken in 2005 at the latest...

The new livery might finally force the Irish Times to snap a new one!

Ireland trains · 13-04-2019 10:48am

Any more info on the 185s coming to ireland

devnull · 13-04-2019 11:28am

Looks unlikely to happen now as it's believed some work has been found for a number of them in the UK to stay on as a result of the Liverpool-Norwich service being severed in half with each half going to different operators.

This will result in fewer carriages becoming available than predicted.

GM228 · 31-05-2019 9:11pm

devnull wrote: »

Looks unlikely to happen now as it's believed some work has been found for a number of them in the UK to stay on as a result of the Liverpool-Norwich service being severed in half with each half going to different operators.

This will result in fewer carriages becoming available than predicted.

Got confirmation today that the leasing plan is a non runner.

CatInABox · 10-10-2019 3:59pm

Looks like they may have found a source for some trains after all. The NTA have told the Public Accounts Committee today that, subject to approval, they could get 41 carriages in two years time.

See here.

The NTA and Iarnród Éireann has prepared a business case for the purchase of an additional 41 intercity rail cars.

Ms Graham said the additional carriages "if given government approval could be put into service in about 24 months".

end of the road · 10-10-2019 5:10pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Looks like they may have found a source for some trains after all. The NTA have told the Public Accounts Committee today that, subject to approval, they could get 41 carriages in two years time.

See here.

those 41 cars are mostlikely the 41 intermediot cars for the existing ICR fleet, this is a project which has been discussed for a while now.
better then nothing but won't really help the dublin suburban, but will come into their own whenever the ICR fleet is freed up from suburban duties, if it ever actually is .

L1011 · 10-10-2019 5:20pm

Those are the 22k intermediates, no most likely about it.

The UK supply is dead for the short term, unless you want some life expired Pacers that need more work than the 2700s

Geuze · 10-10-2019 5:59pm

Are there no 2nd hand trains anywhere available to buy?

I understand all would need different axles, bogies.

Surely somewhere in EU there are excess coaches or DMUs, even ones 20 years old?

L1011 · 10-10-2019 6:05pm

Geuze wrote: »

Are there no 2nd hand trains anywhere available to buy?

I understand all would need different axles, bogies.

Surely somewhere in EU there are excess coaches or DMUs, even ones 20 years old?

The vast majority of EU rolling stock won't fit our loading gauge

That can't be fixed after construction

end of the road · 10-10-2019 6:14pm

Geuze wrote: »

Are there no 2nd hand trains anywhere available to buy?

I understand all would need different axles, bogies.

Surely somewhere in EU there are excess coaches or DMUs, even ones 20 years old?

seems not. even if there were they would not fit our loading gauge unfortunately.
the uk would really be the only sort of viable option for anything second hand, and they have nothing available now apart from clapped out pacer rail buses which were fit for the scrap yard 20 years ago never mind now. they wouldn't be suitable anyway as they have extremely poor acceleration and the coaches are very short so have few seats and little standing room.

Del.Monte · 10-10-2019 6:17pm

There's a couple of Spanish carriages at Blennerville and some MkIIIs at Moyasta.

Geuze · 11-10-2019 9:37am

Our track gauge at 1600mm is bigger than GB at 1435mm.

So surely their loading gauge is smaller??

IE to lease UK fleet?

Comments