Handwriting decipher thread must post link to full page

Hermy · 05-01-2019 2:25am

tabbey wrote: »

But why would she have two different christian names?

The name they were known by in daily life and their legal name?

srmf5 · 05-01-2019 2:30am

Hermy wrote: »

The name they were known by in daily life and their legal name?

I know that in this case they're definitely two different daughters. Robert only had two daughters and no other children. Catherine and her husband had no children and when she became a widow, she returned to the family home. When she died, her nephew Nolan inherited the land.

Hermy · 05-01-2019 2:38am

srmf5 wrote: »

I know that in this case they're definitely two different daughters. Robert only had two daughters and no other children. Catherine and her husband had no children and when she became a widow, she returned to the family home. When she died, her nephew Nolan inherited the land.

I'm not disputing your info here - just pointing out why there might be two christian names.

JDERIC2017 · 05-01-2019 8:42pm

Hi all, can anyone work out where in newcastle Patrick was buried? (K........) is this an area or a cemetery, only got this information in the last how and was down in Kilquade in wicklow today researching!! Thanks.

New Home · 05-01-2019 8:46pm

Kiladriney Co Wicklow? (Lots of squinting involved, so not 100% sure. :P)

Wyldwood · 05-01-2019 10:43pm

I don't see Newcastle, I see Newtown?

what paper was the death notice in? Maybe it would be easier to see on irishnewsarchives.com if available there? If you have more details on the death notice I'll take a look.

Jellybaby1 · 05-01-2019 11:37pm

Kilruddery perhaps? Or Kildriney?

This is a list of burial ground registrars in Wicklow I found on www.wicklow.ie - someone there may be able to assist.
https://www.wicklow.ie/Portals/0/Burial%20Ground%20Registrars%202019.pdf

BowWow · 05-01-2019 11:38pm

Kilruddery?

Beaten to it...........;-(

Deja Boo · 05-01-2019 11:43pm

JDERIC2017 wrote: »

Hi all, can anyone work out where in newcastle Patrick was buried? (K........) is this an area or a cemetery, only got this information in the last how and was down in Kilquade in wicklow today researching!! Thanks.

This is as enhanced as my limited chromebook could make the image, I see Newtown as well.

Do you suppose it meant to say Killadreehan?

Hermy · 06-01-2019 12:00am

How is the image so poor? What's the source please?

JDERIC2017 · 06-01-2019 12:12am

Thanks all for the help, I got it from Irish Newspaper archives, irish Daily Independent, see pdf attached, I can't crop so whole page is here

JDERIC2017 · 06-01-2019 12:16am

31st January, 1903

Hermy · 06-01-2019 12:17am

Sorry - internet kicked back in and I got it thanks.

Wanted to see the image without the magnification - sometimes less is better.

Hermy · 06-01-2019 12:38am

Sorry - not finding any matches.

Best I could get was Killadreenan Graveyard has an Elizabeth Cooling but it's from the 1700's!

JDERIC2017 · 06-01-2019 12:48am

Thanks, I found an Ann Cooling buried in kilquade cemetery, no date or details, Patrick was married to an Ann, so finding the obituary proves he was brought back to Newtown to be burried with her..... if that is the same Ann cooling. I spoke to Clare Kilbride who looks after records for kilquade she wasn't able to help but this obituary may mak sense to her. She suggested I contact the archbishops house in drumcondra.... I will do that next week. Thanks and goodnight all

srmf5 · 10-01-2019 12:08am

I just have a query about this baptism entry. It's on the right page on 26th July. It looks to me like Christopher s (son) of Patk (Patrick) Kelly & Marcella Townsend S.M.M. Spon (sponsors) Hugh Mullany and Catherine Kelly.

If I'm reading it correctly as S.M.M. written after the mother's name, does anyone know what that means? I can only find it being linked to the Company of Mary but that doesn't make much sense for a mother. Thank you for any help.

Jellybaby1 · 10-01-2019 1:15am

srmf5 wrote: »

I just have a query about this baptism entry. It's on the right page on 26th July. It looks to me like Christopher s (son) of Patk (Patrick) Kelly & Marcella Townsend S.M.M. Spon (sponsors) Hugh Mullany and Catherine Kelly.

If I'm reading it correctly as S.M.M. written after the mother's name, does anyone know what that means? I can only find it being linked to the Company of Mary but that doesn't make much sense for a mother. Thank you for any help.

I honestly don't know myself, but a wild guess comes to mind, "St. Mary Magdalene"?

Deja Boo · 10-01-2019 2:43am

As a comparison, there is an underlined W.M.M. after the Aug 1st King baptism

Could WMM signify a mother of a different religion, like Wesleyan Methodist Movement?
Could SMM (possibly) signify St. Mary's Mother and Baby Home?
...or that the mother belonged to St Mary's parish, perhaps?

.

pinkypinky · 10-01-2019 10:35am

Could it be a visiting (or not the usual) priest's initials?

srmf5 · 10-01-2019 1:45pm

Thanks for the replies.

Deja Boo wrote: »

As a comparison, there is an underlined W.M.M. after the Aug 1st King baptism

Could WMM signify a mother of a different religion, like Wesleyan Methodist Movement?
Could SMM (possibly) signify St. Mary's Mother and Baby Home?
...or that the mother belonged to St Mary's parish, perhaps?

.

Thanks for pointing out W.M.M. I don't know what that means either but I wonder if it's just a coincidence that they're both after entries for a Kelly child. It might just be one of those cases where it could be a code that the priest made up himself that he understood.

I think that the St. Mary's Mother and Baby Home hadn't been built yet. It was built as a workhouse in 1841.

I was also wondering if maybe it might indicate the mother being of a different religion but I couldn't think what it would stand for. Townsend is a surname that is more often associated with Church of Ireland but not always. There were Catholic Townsend baptisms in Tuam as well.

Deja Boo · 12-01-2019 3:48am

S.M. – Sanctae Memoriae ("Of Holy Memory") ?

Did the mother survive the birth?

spurious · 12-01-2019 11:09am

Couldn't find any incidence of it again in the register.
I wonder is there anything in that is it SMM for a male child and WMM for a female?

srmf5 · 12-01-2019 2:56pm

Deja Boo wrote: »

S.M. – Sanctae Memoriae ("Of Holy Memory") ?

Did the mother survive the birth?

Thanks, that could be it. I don't know if the mother did survive the birth. It's the only child recorded for that couple and the same goes William Kelly and Anne King. That doesn't necessarily mean anything though since there could be gaps in the registers going back to the early 1800s or they could have been married a while and Christopher just happened to be their youngest child. If SMM has something to do with the mother being deceased, then I just wonder what WMM would stand for.

New Home · 12-01-2019 3:06pm

W=Widowed?
S=Survived/Survivor?

montgo · 13-01-2019 1:32am

I want to confirm some of Edmond's details - his surname DORNEY? his profession POSTMAN? his father's name BENJAMIN?? on the last marriage record #190 here. Thanks.

New Home · 13-01-2019 1:51am

I think it could be Kearney or even Harney, rather than Dorney. As for the rest, I agree that it looks like post-man and Benjamin.

montgo · 13-01-2019 2:48am

Thanks New Home. I've now found Edmond's birth record and I can confirm that he was son of Benjamin Dorney and he was a postman on the 1901 census.

SophieLockhart · 16-01-2019 11:37pm

Here's a page of deaths from the Blackrock area of Dublin:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1945/04629/4229491.pdf

But the actual Registrar's district is very unclear, it looks to be typed rather than transcribed. Any ideas please?

Edit, I think it's Blackhall rather than Blackrock, and most of them seem to be in St Laurence? hospital

spurious · 17-01-2019 12:04am

SophieLockhart wrote: »

Here's a page of deaths from the Blackrock area of Dublin:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1945/04629/4229491.pdf

But the actual Registrar's district is very unclear, it looks to be typed rather than transcribed. Any ideas please?

Edit, I think it's Blackhall rather than Blackrock, and most of them seem to be in St Laurence? hospital

St. Laurence's comprised the Richmond, Whitworth and Hardwick hospitals (from what I can see online).
It was where the old Richmond Hospital was (building still is) on North Brunswick Street.

Looks like the district is Dublin North (city) No. 2 (?)

SophieLockhart · 17-01-2019 12:19am

Ah so it is the North side, thanks indeed!

Deja Boo · 17-01-2019 12:52am

Is it a 2 or 3 in Dublin North?

The page before and after it...
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1945/04629/4229490.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1945/04629/4229492.pdf

It isn't until you get back to January, page 295 is the district 3 handwritten... most in same hospital.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1945/04629/4229478.pdf

spurious · 17-01-2019 8:32am

Much clearer on the handwritten one, yes, 3.

Tombom1 · 18-01-2019 8:55pm

Please I need help to transcribe a house book record here http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/vob/IRE_CENSUS_1821-51_007250632_00861.pdf

so far I have got:

Houses in the townland of Brierfield

Thomas Healy/Whaley? £5.00
House add for attic?
Barn ____
___ Stable and Cowhouse
Exempt Land ___ Committing? of build __ pa____ offer/office
The situation of the house may be considered the same on that __ ____
last and ___ ___ known? many? they? __ here?
of ____
Land? deducted from the whole settle? at 1/3 off

Coffey was the Valuator(third last line)

It mentions something about land what do you think it means? The land was occupied by healys in 1833 (48 acres) and I have another record stating the last lease given in the townland was in 1830 and healy is still occuping the land in 1845 and has the lease(from 1830) but in the griffiths valuation dated 1845 another man thomas davis was in the townland as owner and sole occupier.The prior landlord in 1845 was John Cruise.Would there be a record of this land transfer and what happened to the tenants?could the new landlord break the lease or did it run out?

So maybe they couldnt pay for a new lease? in 1845? I am a bit reluctant to believe this as our family wasnt that poor around those times we also had a similar house with the same dimensions valued 4 pounds at this time ,there are storys we even had subtenant or two one time(probably long before 1845 though) we also had 48 acres in 1845.We were catholic farmers but this was around famine times and maybe bad luck the lease ran out in 1845?
In 1852 we have the right to vote as we have 12 pounds of property valuation but there is no healy from brierfield mentioned in this voting record even though there house is worth 5 pounds and they had good land so Im guessing they had left/evicted.

I have been able to find a healy who is descendant of these and her healy went to america roughly around 1860 she believes.I havent been able to pinpoint the relation so its either 3rd once removed or fourth cousin once removed.

The reason this information is important because there was a story passed down that three healy brothers were split land between them and I think this family is the key to solving that mystery.Our house was built in 1759. we came around the mid to early 1700s to the area.

I have a this healy line with passed down knowledge/graves to a healy in born 1690-1770.

The extra information may not be relevant but I cant make out what the record mentions about land .Thanks to anyone who took time to look at it.

Deja Boo · 19-01-2019 7:55am

Tombom1 wrote: »

Please I need help to transcribe a house book record here http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/vob/IRE_CENSUS_1821-51_007250632_00861.pdf

so far I have got:

Houses in the townland of Brierfield

Thomas Healy/Whaley? £5.00
House add for attic?
Barn ____
___ Stable and Cowhouse
Exempt Land ___ Committing? of build __ pa____ offer/office
The situation of the house may be considered the same on that __ ____
last and ___ ___ known? many? they? __ here?
of ____
Land? deducted from the whole settle? at 1/3 off

Coffey was the Valuator(third last line)

It mentions something about land what do you think it means? The land was occupied by healys in 1833 (48 acres) and I have another record stating the last lease given in the townland was in 1830 and healy is still occuping the land in 1845 and has the lease(from 1830) but in the griffiths valuation dated 1845 another man thomas davis was in the townland as owner and sole occupier.The prior landlord in 1845 was John Cruise.Would there be a record of this land transfer and what happened to the tenants?could the new landlord break the lease or did it run out?

So maybe they couldnt pay for a new lease? in 1845? I am a bit reluctant to believe this as our family wasnt that poor around those times we also had a similar house with the same dimensions valued 4 pounds at this time ,there are storys we even had subtenant or two one time(probably long before 1845 though) we also had 48 acres in 1845.We were catholic farmers but this was around famine times and maybe bad luck the lease ran out in 1845?
In 1852 we have the right to vote as we have 12 pounds of property valuation but there is no healy from brierfield mentioned in this voting record even though there house is worth 5 pounds and they had good land so Im guessing they had left/evicted.

I have been able to find a healy who is descendant of these and her healy went to america roughly around 1860 she believes.I havent been able to pinpoint the relation so its either 3rd once removed or fourth cousin once removed.

The reason this information is important because there was a story passed down that three healy brothers were split land between them and I think this family is the key to solving that mystery.Our house was built in 1759. we came around the mid to early 1700s to the area.

I have a this healy line with passed down knowledge/graves to a healy in born 1690-1770.

The extra information may not be relevant but I cant make out what the record mentions about land .Thanks to anyone who took time to look at it.

Land? I didn't notice the reference, but I am new to genealogy and am not as familiar with the census as I should be.

Comparing Mr Coffey's data with his other pages, this is what I came up with, but I am only guestimating. Interestingly, there is a John Healy on the census'es next page (but you probably already knew that

)

Sorry for the disconnected format of the data, it's the best I could came up with late at night.

Tombom1 · 19-01-2019 11:42am

Deja Boo wrote: »

Land? I didn't notice the reference, but I am new to genealogy and am not as familiar with the census as I should be.

Comparing Mr Coffey's data with his other pages, this is what I came up with, but I am only guestimating. Interestingly, there is a John Healy on the census'es next page (but you probably already knew that )

Sorry for the disconnected format of the data, it's the best I could came up with late at night.

Thanks so much,

I didnt even know sundries was a word so I guess its better to ask than to coming to conclusions about land

So I guess its a trip to the estate records if i want to solve it.
John Healy was Thomas's either 1st or 2 nd cousin , I havent quite figured it out yet through dna.
The similar build of the two house has me interested as ours was built in 1759.

Would you say I could find the land transfer in the irishdeeds index?

SophieLockhart · 08-02-2019 3:28pm

I have two questions if you don't mind -

On this entry the 'husband' is circled. Does this mean the registrar doubts if he actually was the husband? And in fact I can't find a marriage record for the two names in question.

And here we have 'medical attendant' deceased. Does this refer to the actual medical attendant and is it unusual to include that piece of info?

Thanks.

pinkypinky · 08-02-2019 4:03pm

Can you please link to the whole page?

SophieLockhart · 08-02-2019 8:53pm

It's not a 'decipher' question so linking to the full page won't make any difference? (I presume the images are visible).

New Home · 08-02-2019 9:01pm

It may make a difference as other things may provide clues.

pinkypinky · 08-02-2019 9:57pm

Nevertheless, it is a rule of this thread that we ask for the full page. It's actually written in the thread title. Seeing the full page shows other users the context and what format the writer employed.

Hermy · 08-02-2019 11:25pm

SophieLockhart wrote: »

It's not a 'decipher' question so linking to the full page won't make any difference? (I presume the images are visible).

It's very much a decipher question when you don't provide a link to the source, or where that isn't available, at least details like where, when and who.

spurious · 09-02-2019 12:45am

In other instances where I have seen something circled, it has meant there was a correction of the circled item later, but if that is the case in this instance, it would have a note written in the margin, which we would see if there was a full image.

SophieLockhart · 09-02-2019 1:29pm

Okay okay

Entry no 454

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1898/05839/4653863.pdf

spurious · 09-02-2019 4:41pm

I would say that is a copy. If you look at it, the entries are in lovely legible writing, while a scrawl is in the bottom part.

It's possible the original had 'father' or something else instead of husband. I don't think the registrar would be interested in making judgments, if the person reporting said they were the husband, so be it. The circle around husband could be to show it had been changed. I don't know if the GRO would be worth asking.

What I found interesting was that the medical attendant was deceased. I haven't seen that before. There was also a bit of a delay in the registration of the death, but that can result from many things.

Deja Boo · 09-02-2019 7:31pm

Entry 459 also shows husband circled and deceased medical attendant, with a time gap in registering.
(Note, just as a reference - there may be a marriage registration in Tipp for a same name couple of 459 - altho the ages differ greatly between the marriage and death registration).

Entry 474 has 'relative' circled (the deceased and relative have different surnames).

.

spurious · 09-02-2019 7:40pm

They are also in the different 'better' handwriting. A spy of the originals would be interesting.

Deja Boo · 09-02-2019 7:50pm

SophieLockhart wrote: »

I have two questions if you don't mind -

On this entry the 'husband' is circled. Does this mean the registrar doubts if he actually was the husband? And in fact I can't find a marriage record for the two names in question.

Long shot, but .....might this possibly be them?

tabbey · 09-02-2019 10:16pm

SophieLockhart wrote: »

I have two questions if you don't mind -

On this entry the 'husband' is circled. Does this mean the registrar doubts if he actually was the husband? And in fact I can't find a marriage record for the two names in question.

And here we have 'medical attendant' deceased. Does this refer to the actual medical attendant and is it unusual to include that piece of info?

Thanks.

The circle should be around the mispelled Medical Attendant, rather than the Husband which is correctly spelled.

Medical attendant merely means that the cause of death was certified by a medical doctor who attended the patient, as distinct from No medical Attendant where the patient was not seen by a doctor.

New Home · 09-02-2019 10:24pm

tabbey wrote: »

The circle should be around the mispelled Medical Attendant, rather than the Husband which is correctly spelled.

Medical attendant merely means that the cause of death was certified by a medical doctor who attended the patient, as distinct from No medical Attendant where the patient was not seen by a doctor.

I disagree, every other record on the page reads either "certified" or "no med. attend.", so I would say spurious is right (the medical attendant may have died after the death of this lady, but before her death was reported, and maybe that's why "Husband" is circled, perhaps to indicate that the doctor had been present too but could not certify the death having died himself).
Pure speculation on my part, of course.

SophieLockhart · 09-02-2019 11:26pm

Thanks indeed for all the help.

@Deja Boo I did see that entry but I don't believe either John or his father would have their occupation listed as 'gentlemen'. They were reasonably prosperous farmers but not of that rank afaik. Thanks indeed for finding a similar entry which might imply there was nothing significant about my entries being circled.

The family were quite a colourful bunch with various court cases and infighting going on, so it wouldn't have surprised me if the registers didn't paint a fully truthful picture either!

Thanks again.

Handwriting decipher thread *must post link to full page*

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Handwriting decipher thread must post link to full page