Ant & Dec's DNA

A New earth · 10-11-2019 10:05pm #1

Just starting now 9pm Sun 10th Nov.

pinkypinky · 10-11-2019 10:46pm

I am watching. Fun so far but the ad breaks are torturous!

Jellybaby1 · 11-11-2019 12:31am

Just saw this too late. Anyone know if its on again?

L1011 · 11-11-2019 12:42am

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Just saw this too late. Anyone know if its on again?

UTV tomorrow at 9:

https://digiguide.tv/show-times/1362816/Ant-Dec-s-DNA-Journey/Entertainment/

Notdeco · 11-11-2019 12:44am

L1011 wrote: »

UTV tomorrow at 9:

Thats part two isn't it?

Jellybaby1 · 11-11-2019 12:45am

Darn. Don't have UTV anymore!

L1011 · 11-11-2019 3:25am

Notdeco wrote: »

Thats part two isn't it?

Erm, possibly. Digiguide doesn't seem to tell the difference...

It'll show repeats as well on the same link.

UTV is still tuneable on Sky but not Virgin cable, for those that lost it

pinkypinky · 11-11-2019 10:38am

Yes, it's a part II.

You could use a VPN to get hold of the ITV player...I believe.

Hermy · 11-11-2019 11:07am

I didn't see the programme myself - what was the gist of it?

pinkypinky · 11-11-2019 12:06pm

They had their DNA done and go around and hear stories based on it and meet DNA cousins.
It's reasonably well done, except that the guy who came up with the idea is very discredited.
See here for a lot more detail.
The McPartland study was done via Eneclann.

Jellybaby1 · 11-11-2019 8:23pm

L1011 wrote: »

Erm, possibly. Digiguide doesn't seem to tell the difference...

It'll show repeats as well on the same link.

UTV is still tuneable on Sky but not Virgin cable, for those that lost it

Thanks. Ah well, I'll probably have to wait until one of the ITV channels shows it then.

Ipso · 11-11-2019 11:37pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

They had their DNA done and go around and hear stories based on it and meet DNA cousins.
It's reasonably well done, except that the guy who came up with the idea is very discredited.
See here for a lot more detail.
The McPartland study was done via Eneclann.

Yeah, he over exaggerates deep DNA results, but when your dealing with fairly recent relatives you can't over exaggerate too much.
I'm upset that they didn't use the fact that they didn't use the fact that the abbreviation of Ant n' Dec is a palindrome of DNA.

pinkypinky · 12-11-2019 12:15am

I need more info on the McGovern clan stuff now - this is far back and there's too much "probably" in the mix for my liking.

Hermy · 12-11-2019 1:18am

Caught the bit about Fermoy - the Llewellyn's were neighbours of my McGrath's in Fermoy in 1911.

Jellybaby1 · 12-11-2019 1:32am

Just learned that it had been on ITV4.

pinkypinky · 12-11-2019 11:06am

Review from Adam Rutherford in the Guardian.

Waitsian · 12-11-2019 11:28am

I watched the first half of the programme of Sun eve then gave up on it. Very low brow. I don't watch much tv and never these two in anything they do but given the programme thought 'what the hell'. Curiosity got the better of me.

But... the start with the jingoistic, war drum beating "hero" thing set me on edge straight away and once they'd pulled in a "wrestler" from a billion dollar earning energy corporation family I thought 'this show really isn't for me!'

Jellybaby1 · 13-11-2019 1:19am

The Guardian needed clarification on which was Ant and which was Dec but maybe they were joking. Ant & Dec clarified that themselves years ago, as you look at the pair Ant is always on the left and Dec is always on the right! They did this so they wouldn't get mixed up. Seemingly nobody told the Guardian.

pinkypinky · 13-11-2019 9:49am

I think Adam Rutherford was taking the proverbial. His book is an excellent read.

pedroeibar1 · 13-11-2019 12:12pm

I'm rather like Mod9 above and share tose views. Saw the end of part I and watched a bit of p II - total rubbish IMO, a pure advert for Ancestry DNA testing, sponsored programming at its worst. I knew nothing about Ant/Dec and now know that they're an older version of Jedward. Was I alone in having difficulty understanding their accents/dialogue?

Ipso · 13-11-2019 8:11pm

They're no PJ & Duncan.

Hermy · 13-11-2019 9:18pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I knew nothing about Ant/Dec and now know that they're an older version of Jedward. Was I alone in having difficulty understanding their accents/dialogue?

Whatever faults we may perceive in others and take issue with surely the accents they have as a result of where they were born and raised shouldn't be among them?

pinkypinky · 13-11-2019 9:54pm

Yes, let's keep it to ridiculing the science and not the people please.

pedroeibar1 · 14-11-2019 1:19am

Hermy wrote: »

Whatever faults we may perceive in others and take issue with surely the accents they have as a result of where they were born and raised shouldn't be among them?

pinkypinky wrote: »

Yes, let's keep it to ridiculing the science and not the people please.

The above are very bizarre inferences to take from my remarks on the programme.

Broadcasting is about communication – be it dissemination of knowledge, sharing humour, providing entertainment or a mix of all three. The ‘Ant & Dec’s DNA’ title of this thread suggests that the programme is open to critique on the topics it set out to achieve, namely the promotion of a basic understanding of DNA, some ‘back story’ of Ant/Dec’s own DNA and, given their apparent celebrity, some entertainment.

What bits I saw of the programme failed miserably except on the ‘oh- ah‘ entertainment factor for those who are impressed by big houses and helicopters. It pandered completely to a lightweight and overly superficial view of DNA and was an unapologetic promotion of autosomal DNA testing with Ancestry. Connecting both participants to ‘Irish royalty’ was the final straw. As Ancestry paid for the programme, international flights, visits, and no doubt a big fee to the two participants, they are quite entitled to do this but the programme should have carried a more appropriate ‘health warning’ from the broadcaster.

Several dialogue exchanges during the programme went over my head so I asked if others found the regional accents difficult. That is IMO quite a reasonable question and not ‘ridicule’. I have worked overseas for years, have a reasonable ‘ear’, can get by and am still amused by the need of the French to sub-title Canadian-French films in French. However, when watching a British ‘national’ broadcaster it is neither normal nor expected to find rapid and staccato delivery of incomprehensible regional accented idiom. I would expect a basic and coherent standard of delivery, not patois, to communicate with the audience. That is the fault of the producers, not the participants

Hermy · 14-11-2019 1:27am

Apologies pedro - I may have read something into your comment that wasn't there.

pinkypinky · 14-11-2019 12:31pm

Fair enough. I had no problem with their accents myself but then I used to watch them in Byker Grove! It was pretty light-hearted fare. The first episode was much better than the second.

dubhthach · 14-11-2019 2:55pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

I need more info on the McGovern clan stuff now - this is far back and there's too much "probably" in the mix for my liking.

Men bearing the surnames Kernan and McGovern have a high 'enrichment' for been part of R-A5902 (eg. section of R1b men who carry a mutation called A5902).

A5902 is part of wider A259 which is linked to west of Ireland paternal lineages, particularly surnames linked to the historic Uí Briúin lineages.

In case of McGovern and Kernan they both form a sub-branch of wider Uí Briúin Bréifne (which also has O'Rourke, O'Reilly and Ford in it).

A259 is part of wider M222 haplogroup (via it's major sub-branch DF105/S660)

M222 > Z46375 > DF106 > DF104 > DF105/S660 (DF109) > A18726 > A259 > A260 > A5902

Dec in comparison is also M222, but his lineage falls under S588 specifically it's sub-branch FGC59192

M222 > Z46375 > DF106 > DF104 > DF105/S660 (DF109) > S588 > S7814 > A694 > FGC59190 > FGC59192

As result paternally Ant and Dec share a common male ancestor sometime before either A259 or S588 mutated. This common ancestor would have been DF105+/S660+

vast majority of all Irish M222+ are positive for DF105/S660. Basically it makes up about 80%+ of all M222+ men. It would appear it underwent rapid expansion/differentiation with multiple sub-branches appearing sometime in the period of 100-600AD.

M222 itself was theorized as been linked to the historic kindreds of the Dál Cuinn (Uí Néill and the three Connachta -- Uí Briúin, Uí Fiachrac and Uí nAillelo) back in 2006 in paper published out of TCD. This is the somewhat 'infamous' paper that linked the haplogroup with the quasi-historical Níall of the Nine Hostages (Níall Noígiallach).

In the program it was mentioned that Dec been A5902 could potentially be linked to individual known as Brión. In the saga tradition, Brión is the older half-brother of Níall and progenitor of the Uí Briúin of Connacht who ruled the province uninterrupted between the late 7th century and arrival of the Normans in the 13th century.

Of course Donnelly is surname linked to the Northern Uí Néill via been one of surnames of the Cenél nEoghain.

The mention of the Viking burial from Dublin is from a recent aDNA paper on Viking Europe. This individual was discovered in 2001 during the construction at Little Ship Street in Dublin (Dunnes offices). It would appear from his autosomnal results that he was very much a 'native', leaving aside the fact that he is the oldest known sample of M222+ (DF105/S660 in his case) yet published.

pinkypinky · 14-11-2019 3:29pm

Wow! Thanks. I remember that infamous paper.

dubhthach · 14-11-2019 4:53pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Wow! Thanks. I remember that infamous paper.

Well it's not so much that paper is infamous, it's more that commercial companies started saying 'If you are M222+ or if your Y-STR's match specific pattern then you are a descendant of Niall of Nine Hostages'

Here is the paper itself:

A Y-Chromosome Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380239/

Now Wilson and Moffat were involved in a testing company which did autosomal testing (akin to AncestryDNA) but which in case of male testers did test a large panel of Y-DNA SNP's. Quite importantly they tested a large number of M222 sub-branches. As this was before the arrival of BigY test this allowed for much need sub-division into what had been up to then a very monolithic haplogroup.

Now they did publish a very interesting map showing what percentage of their testers in specific regions were M222+, major caveat this was based purely on testers of one company.

Note the major difference between Munster and Connacht. It's interesting how it seem to match what the Trinity paper was showing. That and when you look at other studies such as the Busby study on R1b-M269 as published by the Royal Society several years ago which also put M222 at it's lowest in Munster but highest in Connacht and Ulster.

Of course what we should remember is that our modern concept of Leinster isn't the same as Leinster in the early medieval period.

dubhthach · 14-11-2019 5:00pm

Catherine Swift and Bart Jaski both wrote essays on this paper in a collection of essays (Princes, prelates and poets in medieval Ireland: essays in honour of Katharine Simms)published in 2013 looking at original paper through lenses of Historians. Katharine Simms was one of co-authors on the TCD paper and her book "From Kings to Warlords: The Changing Political Structure of Gaelic Ireland in the Later Middle Ages" is worth reading (it basically was extended book version of her PhD)

5239787._UY400_SS400_.jpg

Anyways here are the two essays

Interlaced scholarship: genealogies and genetics in twenty-first-century Ireland
https://www.academia.edu/3363365/Interlaced_scholarship_genealogies_and_genetics_in_twenty-first-century_Ireland

Medieval Irish genealogies and genetics
https://www.academia.edu/2563825/Medieval_Irish_genealogies_and_genetics_in_Se%C3%A1n_Duffy_ed._Princes_prelates_and_poets_in_medieval_Ireland._Essays_in_honour_of_Katharine_Simms_Dublin_2013_3-17

Ipso · 14-11-2019 7:31pm

I haven't kept up with some of this, I remember one of the ideas was that the UiNiall could have been descendants of people who arrived from Northern Britain (as the time frame matches people possibly fleeing after Germanic influxes) and back projected their origin stories to make them descendants of Niall. Is there truth to this or is it all up in the air?

BowWow · 14-11-2019 10:09pm

On the Ant & Dec program - whilst light, it's probably convinced a few thousand people to take an Ancestry DNA test.
Has to be a good thing, maybe more matches for some of us and at the very least will help the accuracy of the whole project.

RobMc59 · 14-11-2019 10:42pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Men bearing the surnames Kernan and McGovern have a high 'enrichment' for been part of R-A5902 (eg. section of R1b men who carry a mutation called A5902).

A5902 is part of wider A259 which is linked to west of Ireland paternal lineages, particularly surnames linked to the historic Uí Briúin lineages.

In case of McGovern and Kernan they both form a sub-branch of wider Uí Briúin Bréifne (which also has O'Rourke, O'Reilly and Ford in it).

A259 is part of wider M222 haplogroup (via it's major sub-branch DF105/S660)

M222 > Z46375 > DF106 > DF104 > DF105/S660 (DF109) > A18726 > A259 > A260 > A5902

Dec in comparison is also M222, but his lineage falls under S588 specifically it's sub-branch FGC59192

M222 > Z46375 > DF106 > DF104 > DF105/S660 (DF109) > S588 > S7814 > A694 > FGC59190 > FGC59192

As result paternally Ant and Dec share a common male ancestor sometime before either A259 or S588 mutated. This common ancestor would have been DF105+/S660+

vast majority of all Irish M222+ are positive for DF105/S660. Basically it makes up about 80%+ of all M222+ men. It would appear it underwent rapid expansion/differentiation with multiple sub-branches appearing sometime in the period of 100-600AD.

M222 itself was theorized as been linked to the historic kindreds of the Dál Cuinn (Uí Néill and the three Connachta -- Uí Briúin, Uí Fiachrac and Uí nAillelo) back in 2006 in paper published out of TCD. This is the somewhat 'infamous' paper that linked the haplogroup with the quasi-historical Níall of the Nine Hostages (Níall Noígiallach).

In the program it was mentioned that Dec been A5902 could potentially be linked to individual known as Brión. In the saga tradition, Brión is the older half-brother of Níall and progenitor of the Uí Briúin of Connacht who ruled the province uninterrupted between the late 7th century and arrival of the Normans in the 13th century.

Of course Donnelly is surname linked to the Northern Uí Néill via been one of surnames of the Cenél nEoghain.

The mention of the Viking burial from Dublin is from a recent aDNA paper on Viking Europe. This individual was discovered in 2001 during the construction at Little Ship Street in Dublin (Dunnes offices). It would appear from his autosomnal results that he was very much a 'native', leaving aside the fact that he is the oldest known sample of M222+ (DF105/S660 in his case) yet published.

I`ve recently taken the ancestry.co DNA test and did find quite a few family matches,but I`d be interested to know if there is a test for the above DNA markers-this is because I`d like to know if my Donegal family are planter stock or Irish originally.

srmf5 · 15-11-2019 10:58pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I`ve recently taken the ancestry.co DNA test and did find quite a few family matches,but I`d be interested to know if there is a test for the above DNA markers-this is because I`d like to know if my Donegal family are planter stock or Irish originally.

A test for these markers can be bought through FTDNA. You would need to buy the Big Y or SNP packs.

dubhthach · 18-11-2019 12:50pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I`ve recently taken the ancestry.co DNA test and did find quite a few family matches,but I`d be interested to know if there is a test for the above DNA markers-this is because I`d like to know if my Donegal family are planter stock or Irish originally.

So AncestryDNA is an autosomal test, it only looks at the autosomes (eg. 44 non sex linked Chromosomes) as a result it will show you matches up to potentially 200 years ago across all your lines (eg. cousins via your maternal great-grandmother etc.)

They do not test for a panel of Y-Chromosome SNP's. Your best bet is to do a test with FamilyTreeDNA. Their entry level product is at sale at moment for $99 (you have to provide them a sample) with the current Black Friday sales:

https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna#/compare

You can always upgrade at later date to more comprehensive test at a future sale (the Y-DNA tests are basically subsets of each other).

so for example in current sale they have following:

New Tests

Test
Sale Price (Regular Price)
Y-37
$99 ($169)
Y-111
$199 ($359)
Big Y-700
$399 ($649)

Upgrades

Test
Sale Price (Regular Price)
Y-37 to Y-67
$69 ($109)
Y-37 to Y-111
$119 ($228)
Y-37 to Big Y-700
$319 ($569)
Y-67 to Big Y-700
$259 ($499)
Y-111 to Big Y-700
$229 ($449)

Obviously the higher testing level the better the resoultion of your terminal Y-DNA haplogroup would be. However I do think the current price for Y-37 is a good starting point to dip your toes in. At a minimum you should be able to see some level of Y-Chromosome matching etc plus with the submitted sample can always be upgraded to higher resolution testing during future sales events.

dubhthach · 18-11-2019 1:00pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Ipso wrote: »

I haven't kept up with some of this, I remember one of the ideas was that the UiNiall could have been descendants of people who arrived from Northern Britain (as the time frame matches people possibly fleeing after Germanic influxes) and back projected their origin stories to make them descendants of Niall. Is there truth to this or is it all up in the air?

Well the Dál Cuinn mythical origins put them as descendants of Tuathal Techtmar who was born in exile after the supposed overthrown of his father of high king. His mother the 'daughter of King of Alba' (where Alba in this case means Britain not just Scotland) supposedly fled to Britain while pregnant with him. He would come back as a young man with army to reclaim his patrimony.

His grandson in the saga tradition been Conn of the Hundred battles whom the Dál Cuinn (and thus the Connachta) are named after.

The issue is really what's the origin of the Dál Cuinn, they basically take over the northern half of Ireland in generation before arrival of Christianity and go on (via specifically the Uí Néill segment) to dominate/monopolise the High Kingship until the rise of Brian Boru in late 10th century.

I think the historian John V. Kelleher said it best.

"The Uí Néill emerge into history like a school of cuttlefish from a large ink-cloud of their own manufacture; and clouds of ink continued to be manufactured by them or for them throughout their long career"

https://books.google.ie/books?id=1g57cMJMXtwC&pg=PA169&dq=kelleher+ui+neill+cuttlefish&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi97rWA2vPlAhV_TRUIHdFdBWoQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=cuttlefish&f=false

The question thus arises are they perhaps intrusive into Northern half of Ireland during the Iron age, perhaps for example as result of Roman conquest of Brigantia in NW Britain by Agricola in the 70-80's AD. (leaving aside Tacitus remark that Agricola had given shelter to an exiled Irish king).

Tuathal is supposed to have lived in 1st century AD, with bould Conn in the early 2nd.

Usedname · 18-11-2019 5:06pm

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Just saw this too late. Anyone know if its on again?

It's on YouTube 2 parts

Nqp15hhu · 06-03-2021 9:03pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I`ve recently taken the ancestry.co DNA test and did find quite a few family matches,but I`d be interested to know if there is a test for the above DNA markers-this is because I`d like to know if my Donegal family are planter stock or Irish originally.

Well what is your surname? You can use FTDNA to explore to the results of Irish people with that surname to see what the diversity in Y Dna is.

Hermy · 06-03-2021 10:07pm

The quoted post is over a year old and the matter is already being discussed elsewhere.
Lets keep the discussion to a single thread rather than dragging up old threads.

Nqp15hhu · 07-03-2021 7:02pm

Well there was no response to my question anyhow.

RobMc59 · 07-03-2021 7:05pm

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

Well there was no response to my question anyhow.

PM sent...

Ant & Dec's DNA

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