Handwriting decipher thread must post link to full page

montgo · 08-07-2015 11:56pm #1

Hi,

An easy one to start with.

I am looking at the baptism record of Michael Glasheen on 20 Feb 1870 and the marriage annotation "married Margaret Quartes (?) at Balling??, Athlone on 5th June 1927."

It would appear that it should be Quarters as a Margaret Quarters was married in Birr district in 1927. Any idea what the townland/village in Athlone should be?

Hermy · 09-07-2015 12:21am

Would it be Ballinahown?

NOTE TO MODS: Maybe this thread could be retitled to be the official decipher thread.

montgo · 09-07-2015 12:31am

Looks a good possibility. Cheers Hermy

pinkypinky · 09-07-2015 12:40am

Alright, we'll try keeping everything in here please. There's bound to be an initial flurry of deciphering required.

yaledo · 09-07-2015 9:03am

I'd like some help reading this sobering paragraph in marriage registers for Moycullen (Co Galway) from 1845.
I can read the first half, but I struggle with the second half

Jellybaby1 · 09-07-2015 9:18am

This is all I can get at the moment:

[/SIZE]“This Harvest is being abundant as far as grain is concerned, but great fears nay actual starvation on account of a rot ? dreaded in the potato crop. Black spots appearing on the lumper and the probability of its affecting the interior of the vegetable. The people are afraid as yet to pit them for fear of the contagion attacking the sound ones. Wheat has got up 5 a cwt (hundredweight) more than it was last year. How the incoming summer will be as the necessaries of life is on the ? of a Merciful Provider. The disease in the potato is called Cholera from Black Spots appearing on the surface.”

Feel free to correct where I got it wrong. I will come back to it later, it will look different then.

I've added a few bits now.

yaledo · 09-07-2015 9:54am

Thanks jellybaby1 - I've added a couple more clarifications based on your transcription:

As I've read through this marriage register, the same writer has several longer commentaries on the state of his parish & on national politics. I'm grateful for his good handwriting, but found no marriages of my ancestors.

This Harvest is being abundant as far as grain is concerned, but great fears nay actual starvation on account of a rot ? dreaded in the potato crop. Black spots appearing on the lumper and the probability of its affecting the interior of the vegetable. The people are afraid as yet to pit them for fear of the contagion attacking the sound ones. Wheat has got up 5 a cwt (hundredweight) more than it was last year. How the incoming summer will be as far the necessaries of life ^are concerned^ is in the hands of a Merciful Providence. The disease in the potato is called Cholera from Black Spots appearing on the surface.”

L1011 · 09-07-2015 12:12pm

That's the kind of social history stuff that would never turn up if just a dry transcription of the baptism/marriage entries went up. Unintended benefits.

Have to wonder who he thought he was writing them for?

pinkypinky · 09-07-2015 3:58pm

You're so right, L1011, we're going to learn so much more seeing the records like this. Similarly, if you actually look through a trade directory, you get much more than just names on a list, and if you're only searching a database version of it, you miss it.

Hermy · 09-07-2015 9:52pm

Agreed pinky.

From novice to professional there were a lot of concerns about the pitfalls in releasing this set of records in this fashion but I think we're all going to learn a lot more from having to trawl through the books instead of relying on technology to do the searching for us.

clashburke · 10-07-2015 2:08pm

Any ideas on what this says?

Its in the last column of the register. I have a feeling it might have something to do with the parent only being married two months previous (Different parish if that matters).

My eyes are square looking at it and I cant seem to get the right spelling for a translation!

Cheers

Edit: _________ tautum quia validi patre baptizatus _______ _______ patre

Hermy · 10-07-2015 7:30pm

ceremonio tautum quia validi a patre baptizatus testimonium perhiberte patre

Don't know what it means but that's what I think it reads.

Wyldwood · 10-07-2015 7:37pm

Ceremonia tantum quia validi a patre baptizatus testimonium per (hebente?) patre

shanew · 10-07-2015 8:53pm

Hermy wrote: »

ceremonio tautum quia validi a patre baptizatus testimonium perhiberte patre

Don't know what it means but that's what I think it reads.

not a translation but I can hazard a guess at some of the words -

ceremonio = ceremony
patre = father
baptizatus = baptism
testimonium = testimony
perhibente = witness ?

I'm in the middle of a FutureLearn course on the Romans so spent lunchtime trying read altar inscriptions in Latin - turns out that it doesn't really help much with this ..

clashburke · 10-07-2015 8:56pm

Thanks folks.

I've tried google translate, but I suspect its as bad at latin as it is at Irish. Ill try a Latin forum see if it brings any joy!

Edit: Right on all counts I think shane. My Latin is limited to phrases I needed in collage so I can guess words but it seems that they might mean something else when use together!

Hermy · 10-07-2015 9:13pm

This page on Family Search can be helpful.

shanew · 10-07-2015 10:55pm

it think it's going to be something like - 'ceremony valid because of testimony of witness the father'

Aineoil · 11-07-2015 6:42pm

I'm going painstakingly through the records for Caherciveen, Co Kerry. The records were recorded in Latin. The first names of the children

baptised are in Latin too and some of the parents' names.

I've had no joy yet, despite scrolling slowly through 1862 (3 times) - the year my great grandfather was born. I doubted that I had the right

year, so I rang my eighty year old father to check. He went to the family headstone to see if I was wrong.

The headstone read "XXXX died 1942 aged 80".

I also checked the records from 1881 as well. Any advice?

shanew · 11-07-2015 7:28pm

Aineoil wrote: »

I'm going painstakingly through the records for Caherciveen, Co Kerry. The records were recorded in Latin. The first names of the children

baptised are in Latin too and some of the parents' names.

I've had no joy yet, despite scrolling slowly through 1862 (3 times) - the year my great grandfather was born. I doubted that I had the right

year, so I rang my eighty year old father to check. He went to the family headstone to see if I was wrong.

The headstone read "XXXX died 1942 aged 80".

I also checked the records from 1881 as well. Any advice?

what is his name, and parents names ?

I'd be very careful of reported ages for this timeframe from any source, as they are not always accurate...

Have you found any possible civil index records, or searching the transcripts on IrishGenealogy.ie ?

Aineoil · 11-07-2015 7:49pm

shanew wrote: »

what is his name, and parents names ?

I'd be very careful of reported ages for this timeframe from any source, as they are not always accurate...

Have you found any possible civil index records, or searching the transcripts on IrishGenealogy.ie ?

May I post the name?

I agree about the age thing, people were not really sure of their birth date in bygone days. In the 1901 census my great grand mother was 43 years of age and by 1911 she was 58.

I do have his parents' names. May I post their names?

I found nothing in any civil records about him.

In IrishGenealogy.ie I found the baptismal and birth dates of seven of their children - church records.

The oldest child seems to have no baptismal record that I can find. He's a bit of a mystery. My father thinks he went to America.

Thank you so much for your reply, I really appreciate it.

shanew · 11-07-2015 7:59pm

There's no problem with posting his name and those of siblings or his parent if you wish, as none of these people would still be living

The first child can be baptised in the mother's parish of origin so sometimes you have to search outside the area the family settled in. Where does you gt-grandfather fit in the family - middle, eldest, youngest etc...

p.s. it's possible that his baptism was not noted in the register in error, but there might be a civil record - depends how common the name is.. but you may have to try a few certs to find him. He may be registered under a different first name to the one you expect, and ended up using something else in later life.

paddysdream · 11-07-2015 8:16pm

Quick question.
In the last column in a marriage register (Observanda si quae sint etc) what is to be found here normally?
Reason is that found marriage of a relative but even with half an hour of playing around with the screen still could not make out the words.Looks like 4 words with the first having approx 9 letters,second 3,third 2,fourth 3 letters all in a line and then underneath is another word(I think!!!!)

Not a lot to go on I know but hoping it might be a standard notation or comment.
Don't really want to link to it as both the name and address is the exact same as mine so if anybody might be willing to look at it then could pm.
Thanks.

jos28 · 12-07-2015 12:26am

I reckon we'll all be heading to Specsavers reading through these images !
It's a fantastic resource and so much easier than spending the day at the NLI.
I have a birth of Walter Glover, May 1822 in Castletownbere
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/a303e20155788
I originally found him on the microfilm at NLI and found the entry online today.

Does anyone think this might be his parents marriage in 1820 ? (page 8)

Marriage.jpg

P. Breathnach · 12-07-2015 1:44am

jos28 wrote: »

... Does anyone think this might be his parents marriage in 1820 ? (page 8)

Marriage.jpg

Is it a marriage record? I see
Idem B. Walt. fil. leg. Walt. Glover & Catr. Sullivan Village
That looks to me to be (loose construction): "Likewise Baptised was Walter, a legitimate son of Walter Glover and Catherine Sullivan of the Village."

CeannRua · 12-07-2015 7:42am

clashburke wrote: »

Any ideas on what this says?

Its in the last column of the register. I have a feeling it might have something to do with the parent only being married two months previous (Different parish if that matters).

My eyes are square looking at it and I cant seem to get the right spelling for a translation!

Cheers

Edit: _________ tautum quia validi patre baptizatus _______ _______ patre

I wonder if this might mean that the child was baptised by his father, and that the father bore witness to same. Are there notations about dues paid to the priest on the page and is there any difference between the fee paid for this baptism and others?

jos28 · 12-07-2015 10:05am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Is it a marriage record? I see
Idem B. Walt. fil. leg. Walt. Glover & Catr. Sullivan Village
That looks to me to be (loose construction): "Likewise Baptised was Walter, a legitimate son of Walter Glover and Catherine Sullivan of the Village."

Thanks P.B., I suspected as much. I wonder why there appears to be another baptism for Walter 2 years later.
I have come across cases where the first child died and the same name was used for the next one. Wonder if that's the case. I'd LOVE to find a marriage for Walter and Catherine. You'd imagine I'd have a good chance since the Castletownbere marriage registers run from 1819

P. Breathnach · 12-07-2015 1:02pm

jos28 wrote: »

Thanks P.B., I suspected as much. I wonder why there appears to be another baptism for Walter 2 years later.
I have come across cases where the first child died and the same name was used for the next one. Wonder if that's the case.

In West Kerry anyway, it was fairly common to find the name of a deceased child given to the next one born, and I think the custom was more widespread than that. There seems to have been a traditional belief that God would not take two children of the same name from the family.

I'd LOVE to find a marriage for Walter and Catherine. You'd imagine I'd have a good chance since the Castletownbere marriage registers run from 1819

Are you sure they married in Castletownbere? Do you have any reason to think there might be a connection with another parish?

jos28 · 12-07-2015 1:58pm

All my lot are from Kerry and I found a few re-used names. I love the idea that the belief was that God wouldn't take a second one. I hadn't heard that before and it explains why I found so many.
The Glovers were all based in Killeentierna and one marriage entry shows Walter (Snr), father of the bride as a soldier.
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/e39ba40029040
When I found Walter in Castletownbere I knew they had to be connected. It's possible that he was stationed at the military base there. I managed to find a fabulous illustrated report from Bere Island in 1824. This highlights how difficult life was for the soldiers and how some of them crossed the mountains into Kerry in search of food and work. This might explain how Walter ended up in Kerry. Clutching at straws here I know. I've no proof that they married in Castletownbere but I thought it was a possibilty

Bere Island in Bantry Bay with a review of its effective powers as a Fortfied Place. Written by Lt Alexander Alcock, Royal Artillery, 1824.

clashburke · 12-07-2015 3:48pm

CeannRua wrote: »

I wonder if this might mean that the child was baptised by his father, and that the father bore witness to same. Are there notations about dues paid to the priest on the page and is there any difference between the fee paid for this baptism and others?

http://137.191.249.36/registers/vtls000633444#page/167/mode/1up

Third down on that page John Lee. No mention of dues anywhere.

I've put it up on a Latin Forum also and they seem to think its written wrong. There reluctant to give what they think it would be if it was phrased correctly

Aineoil · 12-07-2015 7:41pm

shanew wrote: »

There's no problem with posting his name and those of siblings or his parent if you wish, as none of these people would still be living

The first child can be baptised in the mother's parish of origin so sometimes you have to search outside the area the family settled in. Where does you gt-grandfather fit in the family - middle, eldest, youngest etc...

p.s. it's possible that his baptism was not noted in the register in error, but there might be a civil record - depends how common the name is.. but you may have to try a few certs to find him. He may be registered under a different first name to the one you expect, and ended up using something else in later life.

I think you might be right. He may have been baptised in his mother's parish. I never thought of that. My dad thinks she was from Ballinskelligs.

I don't know where my great grandfather fits in family wise. I'll ask my dad but I don't think he knows.

Here's what I do know.

Daniel Shea born 1862 (source family headstone....Died aged 80 in 1942)

Mary Shea nee Donnelly (43 years of age in the 1901 census, 58 in the 1911 census)

They had 8 children.

Patrick born in 1885.

Hanora born in 1887. (Source church records)

James born in 1890. (Source church records)

Catherine born in 1891. (Source church records)

Mary born 1893. (Source church records)

John born 1895. (Source church records)

Daniel born 1897. (Source church records)

Timothy born 1899. (Source church records)

shanew · 12-07-2015 10:10pm

Aineoil wrote: »

...Daniel Shea born 1862 (source family headstone....Died aged 80 in 1942)

Mary Shea nee Donnelly (43 years of age in the 1901 census, 58 in the 1911 census)

They had 8 children.

Patrick born in 1885.

Hanora born in 1887. (Source church records)
....

have you checked for a marriage (civil or church) for Daniel and Mary ?

That might give a clue as to their location(s) before the birth of Hanora. I would start there and then try to work back to baptisms for Daniel Mary and possibly Patrick.

shanew · 13-07-2015 8:21am

possible civil marriage index entry for Daniel and Mary ?

Name: Daniel Shea
Registration Quarter/Year: Jan-Mar 1884
Registration district: Cahirsiveen
Volume: 5 / Page : 45

One of the possible brides is a Mary Donnelly

montgo · 13-07-2015 9:29am

I'm am trying to work out the name of 2nd sponsor. here, year 1811 and date looks like March 11 (lower half of page, left side).

"Thomas of Thomas Hinan, etc........................ son of Wm. Brien of Monemore" could it be Anastasia (or similar) of Wm Purcell of 2nd place ie Monemore or am I way off?

Thx

KildareFan · 13-07-2015 9:47am

could it be Mary Barrell of Wm Barrell of se [same] place? This register is great because it gives information on relationships of the sponsors as well....

montgo · 13-07-2015 9:57am

Yes, some of the early baptisms give additional information on the sponsors. The sponsor of a sister of my ancestor born 1811 was recorded as "brother in law" which was helpful.

I've been trying to find Pat/Patrick records closeby to compare the "P" but surprising that there weren't any but a a number with the name "Batt" which I thought were Bartholomew but could be Patrick. I have never found any surname "Barrell" before in this parish.

P. Breathnach · 13-07-2015 10:47am

montgo wrote: »

... could it be Anastasia (or similar) of Wm Purcell ...

KildareFan wrote: »

could it be Mary Barrell of Wm Barrell of se [same] place? This register is great because it gives information on relationships of the sponsors as well....

montgo, I think you have been reading an ampersand (&) as a capital A. I'd go with KildareFan on Mary, but the surname might be Burrell (the scribe generally closes his "a"s).

montgo · 13-07-2015 11:15am

Hi,
You might well be correct.

I've attached another Purcell record from 1810 for comparison?

P. Breathnach · 13-07-2015 1:10pm

montgo wrote: »

Hi,
You might well be correct.

I've attached another Purcell record from 1810 for comparison?

I scrolled through a few pages of your first link, and I think it is an idiosyncrasy of the scribe that his P is difficult to distinguish from his B. Yes, I now think the name is Purcell.

montgo · 13-07-2015 3:34pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I scrolled through a few pages of your first link, and I think it is an idiosyncrasy of the scribe that his P is difficult to distinguish from his B. Yes, I now think the name is Purcell.

Many thanks.

Aineoil · 13-07-2015 5:04pm

shanew wrote: »

possible civil marriage index entry for Daniel and Mary ?

Name: Daniel Shea
Registration Quarter/Year: Jan-Mar 1884
Registration district: Cahirsiveen
Volume: 5 / Page : 45

One of the possible brides is a Mary Donnelly

Shane, Thank you so much for sourcing that information for me. It's much

appreciated. It looks like that they are my great grandparents. On the 1911

census it was recorded that they were married 27 years which would mean

they were married in 1884.

shanew · 13-07-2015 6:32pm

Aineoil wrote: »

Shane, Thank you so much for sourcing that information for me. It's much

appreciated. It looks like that they are my great grandparents. On the 1911

census it was recorded that they were married 27 years which would mean

they were married in 1884.

I had a quick look on IrishGenealogy for the parish record for this marriage around 1884, but didn't spot anything. The civil cert should help your search, as it will show which church the marriage took place in, and the current residences for the bride and groom, along with their father's names and names of witnesses..

parts of parishes other than Cahirsiveen could be included in the registration district of Cahirsiveen - e.g. Valencia, Dromod, Prior and Kilcrohane

Aineoil · 13-07-2015 8:14pm

shanew wrote: »

I had a quick look on IrishGenealogy for the parish record for this marriage around 1884, but didn't spot anything. The civil cert should help your search, as it will show which church the marriage took place in, and the current residences for the bride and groom, along with their father's names and names of witnesses..

parts of parishes other than Cahirsiveen could be included in the registration district of Cahirsiveen - e.g. Valencia, Dromod, Prior and Kilcrohane

Again thanks for searching for me. I really appreciate the fact that you took the time to search for me.

I searched the church records myself and I found the names and dates of birth of my grandfather and his siblings, which was a great help.

Many thanks to the person that transcribed those records. It must have been a painstaking labour.

On a more poignant note two of my great grandparents, James and Catherine, must have died as young children, just looking at the census returns.

My father never knew he had an aunt and uncle by those names. They aren't even recorded on the family headstone. I suppose times were different and people didn't like to talk about things like that.

On another note I feel bad asking my dad all these questions when he doesn't really have answers for me and the information he has is vague - not his fault, but I think people didn't talk about things like that years ago. I would love to ask him if he knew the names of his own grandfather's siblings. I am new to genealogy and I don't want to put him under any pressure. But he's curious too and asks me if I have found out any new information.

He did ring me yesterday to say that Daniel Shea's parents were James Shea and Mary Galvin. He thinks they built the farm house in Clahanelinahan, Caherciveen.

Sorry for such a long post.

Hermy · 13-07-2015 9:32pm

Aineoil wrote: »

...On another note I feel bad asking my dad all these questions when he doesn't really have answers for me and the information he has is vague - not his fault, but I think people didn't talk about things like that years ago. I would love to ask him if he knew the names of his own grandfather's siblings. I am new to genealogy and I don't want to put him under any pressure. But he's curious too and asks me if I have found out any new information...

He's curious too so don't feel bad.
If he was vague the first time you asked him I dare say he'll think of some more things the more you talk about the old times, especially if you've been able to dig out some names and places he had forgotten about.
That was my experience with my late mother. She'd swear she was no help cause she remembered nothing but when we'd get chatting she'd suddenly recall all sorts of apparently trivial but very useful info.

tabbey · 14-07-2015 7:19pm

Aineoil, ask your father and other relatives as much as you can. My parents were dead a quarter of a century by the time I took up genealogy/ family history. All uncles and aunts had similarly departed. Starting when these are alive and alert can save a lot of time and effort.

Aineoil · 14-07-2015 7:52pm

tabbey wrote: »

Aineoil, ask your father and other relatives as much as you can. My parents were dead a quarter of a century by the time I took up genealogy/ family history. All uncles and aunts had similarly departed. Starting when these are alive and alert can save a lot of time and effort.

Thanks for that post tabbey. I agree with you completely, asking existing relatives saves a lot of time when trying to conduct research about the past.

My father, aged 80, is the only one I can ask about the past.

He does have two younger sisters who made their lives abroad long ago.

They left Ireland as teenagers to go to London and train as nurses in the late 1950's early 1960s. Sad to say I have never known my aunts on my father's side of the family.

Their mother (my granny) was a tough woman. Reading between the lines and hearing little bits of trivia like Hermy said are very interesting - I think they left because she wasn't a nice person and made them work very hard on the farm as in being made to get up at 6 in the morning to feed the geese as young girls.

I remember granny vaguely, I was 6 when she died. My memory of her was as a very headstrong woman.

Just a story, but when she made her will, she wanted to leave just one schilling to both of her daughters. Thankfully my father and mother talked her out of it.

Genealogy research brings out all sort of things.

L1011 · 14-07-2015 8:07pm

The two aunts in the UK could be contactable if you wanted to try - based on what I assume their age would be, if you can find any info it'd be their children you'd probably reach and you may want to try a physical letter if you get contact details.

Hermy · 14-07-2015 8:09pm

Aineoil wrote: »

Genealogy research brings out all sort of things.

This is so very true.

P. Breathnach · 14-07-2015 9:43pm

Aineoil wrote: »

... Genealogy research brings out all sort of things.

That is does.

Wait until you start into court and prison records. My great-grandfather was convicted over 100 years ago for having an unlicensed dog. The shame of it!

L1011 · 14-07-2015 10:27pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That is does.

Wait until you start into court and prison records. My great-grandfather was convicted over 100 years ago for having an unlicensed dog. The shame of it!

I've got a recidivist sheep-on-the-public-highway transgressor on my mothers mothers side. At least her fathers side were fine upstanding court clerks (and IRA Court judges during the war of independence...) to cancel it out!

montgo · 14-07-2015 10:30pm

Help please with Latin translation Page 29 - 2nd record right hand page

??? (In E de G - in Church of Glenroe maybe) ??? Thomas Lee & Margaret Ryan. Sps Thomas Ryan & Brigida Lee of Ballintubber. Married to Hanora Tobin Feb 24 1914

Hermy · 14-07-2015 10:40pm

First bit before the bracket maybe infa Rector bap

Joannes could be the underlined name.

Handwriting decipher thread *must post link to full page*

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Handwriting decipher thread must post link to full page