Woman Loses Job for Holding Gender Critical Opinions.

Zorya · 05-05-2019 11:52am

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

When you become “world renowned” for your work I think the waters get muddied.

A junior employee who no one knows where they are employed is probably fine to spout nonsense but when you’re further up the food chain you’re going to face potential consequences, whether right or wrong.

I can see the point in what you are saying. But it is a dangerous road to go down. Say I work for a big corporation but on my free time I write about flat earth or reincarnation or vaccinations or reptilian overlords or religious perspectives or pro-life issues or solar influence on climate change or Russian non-collusion etc etc (topics picked randomly, people!). Where does it stop? Who defines what anyone can say? What you or I think now on multiple issues may be unacceptable, if not now then at some other time?
And especially on matters of gender ideology - this should be WHOLLY open to question and transparent debate.

Augme · 05-05-2019 11:55am

Candamir wrote: »

So it’s ok so long as nobody is actually forced to have sex against their will.

Do you think the bullying that these lesbians get is ok?
Would it be ok if it were young heterosexual women who were being bullied on twitter for not ‘putting out’ ?

I've never seen this bullying. Can you link to a Twitter thread on it? Is there an article about it even?

How Soon Is Now · 05-05-2019 11:58am

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Will somebody wake me up when all of this is over and tell me what I should think, please. It seems that none of us are allowed to have our own views on certain subjects anymore.

I’ll draw the line at calling myself ‘cis’, isn’t it gas that the same people who want us to accept all LBGTQ+ terms, are the very ones who want us to change how straight people refer to themselves.

Let the double standards continue until they eat themselves.

The very reason why I refuse to get involved in anything to do with supporting them.

They only want our views and support when they need it. Otherwise shut up your wrong!

STB. · 05-05-2019 11:59am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Different things. Everyone has freedom of opionin, not everyone has freedom of speech.

I know that they are two different things. I was stating that to the poster I was replying to who doesn't seem to recognise either, when a differing opinion is described as "ILLEGAL".

This whole trans area gets too much attention. In terms of the article, I thought it was reasoned.

c.p.w.g.w · 05-05-2019 11:59am

Zorya wrote: »

I read that article once last year SC, please don't make me read it again

I got to point 2 and just lol'd absolutely absorbed carry on

BattleCorp · 05-05-2019 12:03pm

Augme wrote: »

Employers can never control what an employee says outside work. However an employer should have the right to decide if they want to no longer employ someone based on opinions they have expressed outside of work.

If I say, I believe that people with a penis are men and people with a vagina are women, can my employer sack me - legally?

If so, what next..............

I say I don't like cheese outside of work, can my employer decide they no longer want to employ me? Can they sack me - legally?

Danzy · 05-05-2019 12:06pm

Zorya wrote: »

Maya Forstater is a internationally renowned researcher on Tax Avoidance, who worked until recently at the London office of the Centre for Global Development (CGD) think tank.

In March she wrote an article calling for open debate about the consequences of Gender Self ID, particularly with respect to the implications for women. She says womanhood is defined by biological fact not by feeling.

This is the article.
https://medium.com/@MForstater/international-development-lets-talk-about-sex-eb9de927c787

She has been fired from her position on the grounds that she used ''offensive and exclusionary language'' and that she is ''fear-mongering''.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tax-expert-fired-for-saying-trans-women-aren-t-women-tpqgnm9vj

She is taking her employer to court to argue that ...

https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/fired-maya/

When people are so gleeful about certain opinions being censored on internet platfroms, remember that censorship can extend exponentially. Their opinions censored today, yours tomorrow. Their job today, yours tomorrow.

Biological facts are now a reason for censorship and job loss.

Example 6743 of there is a growing anti science, cultist fanatic mindset in the modern Left, in the more prominent activists at that.

Charles Ingles · 05-05-2019 12:06pm

That it have come full circle.
Women have fought for year's for equality we finally achieve it .
Then a woman is sacked because she doesn't agree that a man In a dress is a woman.
Women suffer the most from the trans agenda

Zorya · 05-05-2019 12:08pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

If I say, I believe that people with a penis are men and people with a vagina are women, can my employer sack me - legally?

No, because this is true.

However you may be compelled to say that people with a penis are women and people with a vagina are men.
Not transwomen or transmen, but simply women or men.
That is where you cannot be allowed to have divergent thought, it appears.

strandroad · 05-05-2019 12:10pm

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

When you become “world renowned” for your work I think the waters get muddied.

A junior employee who no one knows where they are employed is probably fine to spout nonsense but when you’re further up the food chain you’re going to face potential consequences, whether right or wrong.

Yes it's exactly like the Israel Folau situation. They were posting as their named and employer-affiliated selves. He was saying that gays go to hell, she was saying that you can only be what you are born as and no provisions should be made to accommodate you otherwise because you're a threat = the content stigmatised a particular group potentially present among the employers staff and most certainly present among their customer base. They received warnings but continued regardless.

BattleCorp · 05-05-2019 12:13pm

Zorya wrote: »

No, because this is true.

However you may be compelled to say that people with a penis are women and people with a vagina are men.
Not transwomen or transmen, but simply women or men.
That is where you cannot be allowed to have divergent thought, it appears.

The definition of true seems to be changing quite a lot these days.

STB. · 05-05-2019 12:14pm

strandroad wrote: »

Yes it's exactly like the Israel Folau situation. They were posting as their named and employer-affiliated selves. He was saying that gays go to hell, she was saying that you can only be what you are born as and no provisions should be made to accommodate you otherwise because you're a threat = the content stigmatised a particular group potentially present among the employers staff and most certainly present among their customer base. They received warnings but continued regardless.

That is not what she said.

Zorya · 05-05-2019 12:16pm

strandroad wrote: »

Yes it's exactly like the Israel Folau situation. They were posting as their named and employer-affiliated selves. He was saying that gays go to hell, she was saying that you can only be what you are born as and no provisions should be made to accommodate you otherwise because you're a threat = the content stigmatised a particular group potentially present among the employers staff and most certainly present among their customer base. They received warnings but continued regardless.

It's not though. Saying gays go to hell is not the same as saying there needs to be continued open debate about gender ideology and gender self identification especially regarding female only spaces.
Does nobody do nuance anymore?

Augme · 05-05-2019 12:18pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

If I say, I believe that people with a penis are men and people with a vagina are women, can my employer sack me - legally?

If so, what next..............

I say I don't like cheese outside of work, can my employer decide they no longer want to employ me? Can they sack me - legally?

I suppose legally it would depend and I'm not too sure. Most companies would have a clause saying if you bring the company in disrepute this can be a sackable offense. So, there might be a struggle with the cheese argument.

Similarly, if I write a blog article saying I hate black people, think they are inferior and prone to committing crime compared to white people and my employer sees it, should they not be allowed do anything? What if the article becomes very popular and it's widely known I work for a certain company? What if I work with a lot of black people?

Candamir · 05-05-2019 12:18pm

strandroad wrote: »

Yes it's exactly like the Israel Folau situation. They were posting as their named and employer-affiliated selves. He was saying that gays go to hell, she was saying that you can only be what you are born as and no provisions should be made to accommodate you otherwise because you're a threat = the content stigmatised a particular group potentially present among the employers staff and most certainly present among their customer base. They received warnings but continued regardless.

I didn’t read that anywhere in her article. In fact I read a lot of this:

“Organisations concerned with international development and global social change seek to support a world where universal human rights are protected and where people can influence the decisions which affect their lives. This should include holding open the space to allow people to talk about the meaning of the word “women”, and about how the rights of both women and transgender people can be protected. People should not have to be brave to talk about this.

Danzy · 05-05-2019 12:19pm

El_Bee wrote: »

It should be in some cases, in many ways free speech was a mistake.

Franco lives on in El Bee.

strandroad · 05-05-2019 12:19pm

STB. wrote: »

That is not what she said.

It is. She does not accept that you can transition to be of opposite identity and she campaigns to keep them out of shared spaces afterwards.

There are many issues to sort out legally around sports, prisons etc of course. But her answer is to deny access completely and do not recognise the change.

ogsjw · 05-05-2019 12:20pm

declan2693 wrote: »

The liberals are the true fascist

Are you american? So why are you talking like one?

TCM · 05-05-2019 12:22pm

Brendan Delaney wrote:

A man cannot turn himself into a woman, no matter what the progressive Taliban types want us to believe.

....and that is the simple FACT of the matter.

Zorya · 05-05-2019 12:24pm

strandroad wrote: »

It is. She does not accept that you can transition to be of opposite identity and she campaigns to keep them out of shared spaces afterwards.

There are many issues to sort out legally around sports, prisons etc of course. But her answer is to deny access completely and do not recognise the change.

Can you quote her saying any of those things?

Now I hope transwomen are not gagging to get into prison at all, but if they are sentenced, given that there have been rapes of women in prison by self ID transwomen, then access should not be allowed. It would be unsafe for transwomen to go to male prison too, so there have to be separate spaces. But do not just dump them in with women, that's not fair at all. Most self ID transwomen prisoners are sex offenders - statistically. There have been rapes in female shelters too.

STB. · 05-05-2019 12:24pm

Zorya wrote: »

It's not though. Saying gays go to hell is not the same as saying there needs to be continued open debate about gender ideology and gender self identification especially regarding female only spaces.
Does nobody do nuance anymore?

Whatever about nuances, it seems that the ability to read an opinion piece challenging an ideology with reasoned argument is impossible to some, especially when it comes to summarising what was actually said in that opinion piece. I guess that doesn't suit the agenda.

strandroad wrote: »

It is. She does not accept that you can transition to be of opposite identity and she campaigns to keep them out of shared spaces afterwards.

There are many issues to sort out legally around sports, prisons etc of course. But her answer is to deny access completely and do not recognise the change.

Read the article again. If that's what you took out of it, you may need more than glasses. "Accommodating" indeed !

ogsjw · 05-05-2019 12:27pm

"An internationally renowned researcher on tax avoidance is believed to be the first person in Britain to lose her job for saying that transgender women are not women."

If this is as black and white as she put it, it's not a great look. Not sure why some women think it's more acceptable for them to be transphobic just because they're women.
Companies are judged by the staff they keep. It's a tough one. What if you want to disassociate yourself from hateful views, but the one spewing them is an employee? Personally I would've just not renewed her contract to avoid the court case, but I wonder how long she was contracted for...

TCM wrote: »

....and that is the simple FACT of the matter.

Only if you don't understand the difference between gender and sex.

Danzy · 05-05-2019 12:29pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Nah. Irish women reject this exclusionary nonsense https://feministire.com/2018/01/22/an-open-letter-to-the-organisers-of-the-we-need-to-talk-tour-from-a-group-of-feminists-in-ireland/

A blog that is not known outside of South Dublin cafes is hardly representative of Irish women.

Maybe of a slice of Middle and Upper Class Irish women and even a few working class ones but it is a niche site.

strandroad · 05-05-2019 12:30pm

Zorya wrote: »

Can you quote her saying any of those things?

That's her manifesto:

https://medium.com/@MForstater/i-lost-my-job-for-speaking-up-about-womens-rights-2af2186ae84

She does not accept that people who transitioned should be treated according to their new gender. I don't know what she proposes instead though. Some sort of limbo?

Danzy · 05-05-2019 12:36pm

ogsjw wrote: »

"An internationally renowned researcher on tax avoidance is believed to be the first person in Britain to lose her job for saying that transgender women are not women."

If this is as black and white as she put it, it's not a great look. Not sure why some women think it's more acceptable for them to be transphobic just because they're women.
Companies are judged by the staff they keep. It's a tough one. What if you want to disassociate yourself from hateful views, but the one spewing them is an employee? Personally I would've just not renewed her contract to avoid the court case, but I wonder how long she was contracted for...

Only if you don't understand the difference between gender and sex.

You'd make a great strike breaker.

Outlook just right.

strandroad · 05-05-2019 12:36pm

Zorya wrote: »

It's not though. Saying gays go to hell is not the same as saying there needs to be continued open debate about gender ideology and gender self identification especially regarding female only spaces.
Does nobody do nuance anymore?

That's not what she says. There is no debate, in her manifesto she states there there should be no provision for their new identity:

"Yes people should of course be able to define their identity any way they like. But other people are not compelled to accept it as relating to any material reality."

Now imagine that you are her employer with an inclusive policy, and you have warned her already. Do you accept a ticking bomb? You may have staff who transitioned and you have a duty to them too.

05-05-2019 12:38pm

ogsjw wrote:

Only if you don't understand the difference between gender and sex.

How many genders are there?

Zorya · 05-05-2019 12:38pm

strandroad wrote: »

That's her manifesto:

https://medium.com/@MForstater/i-lost-my-job-for-speaking-up-about-womens-rights-2af2186ae84

She does not accept that people who transitioned should be treated according to their new gender. I don't know what she proposes instead though. Some sort of limbo?

Should a gay man be considered transphobic if he will not have sex with a female body? If that person is wholly biologically female but identifies as a man? Have they become an actual man by feeling that they are one? Do you personally have exclusionary dating practices based on body genotype or phenotype? Just asking for a friend.

"Yes people should of course be able to define their identity any way they like. But other people are not compelled to accept it as relating to any material reality."

What is wrong with that statement? If I want to have a biological child as a man or a woman, I will have to move forward on that plan according to the material reality of the body of the person I am having sex with, if only to maximise my chances. The material reality is that a trans person cannot reproduce. Science is a hard master.

Danzy · 05-05-2019 12:41pm

Deleted User wrote: »

How many genders are there?

To answer that is to potentially hinder future expressions of gender.

Gender is best replaced with ∞.

05-05-2019 12:41pm

strandroad wrote:

"Yes people should of course be able to define their identity any way they like. But other people are not compelled to accept it as relating to any material reality."

I see nothing controversial in that statement

Zorya · 05-05-2019 12:43pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I see nothing controversial in that statement

And yet that is precisely the statement that was considered hateful and offensive and caused her to lose her job. Really, it's a brave new world.

Danzy · 05-05-2019 12:45pm

Zorya wrote: »

And yet that is precisely the statement that was considered hateful and offensive and caused her to lose her job. Really, it's a brave new world.

Non conformity to ones views is now considered a hateful rejection.

05-05-2019 12:46pm

Danzy wrote:

To answer that is to potentially hinder future expressions of gender.

Danzy wrote:

Gender is best replaced with âˆž.

Hahaha.

Sadly some actually think that

ogsjw · 05-05-2019 12:46pm

Deleted User wrote: »

How many genders are there?

What relation does that have to what you quoted?

strandroad · 05-05-2019 12:47pm

Zorya wrote: »

Should a gay man be considered transphobic if he will not have sex with a female body? If that person is wholly biologically female but identifies as a man? Have they become an actual man by feeling that they are one? Do you personally have exclusionary dating practices based on body genotype or phenotype? Just asking for a friend.

"Yes people should of course be able to define their identity any way they like. But other people are not compelled to accept it as relating to any material reality."

What is wrong with that statement? If I want to have a biological child as a man or a woman, I will have to move forward on that plan according to the material reality of the body of the person I am having sex with, if only to maximise my chances. The material reality is that a trans person cannot reproduce. Science is a hard master.

Where is this whole sex thing coming from? If someone unwanted pesters you it's harassment or assault and should be dealt with as such.

Material reality as she is referring to it would bar trans people from accessing spaces or services. She counts a trans woman panellist as a man etc.

05-05-2019 12:48pm

ogsjw wrote:

What relation does that have to what you quoted?

Because I am interested in knowing. As someone who obviously knows more about the subject, I was hoping you could tell me.

strandroad · 05-05-2019 12:52pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I see nothing controversial in that statement

Then imagine that you are her coworker who transitioned but she still counts you under your past gender like she does with this panellist, campaigns against you using spaces or services etc because you are a threat to their regular users.
Do you think that she would be kept as an employee?

StinkyMunkey · 05-05-2019 12:53pm

As I've said before, regardless of what that thing between your ears is telling you, your either born male or female (with some small exceptions).

You can identify as being Jesus, but that doesn't make you Jesus. It doesn't matter who you think you are, it doesn't change what you are.

I've no isssue with people wanting to identify as male or female, I'll respect their choice and act towards them accordlying.

An individuals thought process should never supersede official information describing someone's biology. Just because you identify as a different sex to what you are biologically, it doesn't give you the right to demand others have to pamper to your ever wish. As with most things in life, there has to be compromises.

Trans people will have to accept the fact that there will always be a limit to how far society or a countries infrastructure can accommodate them. It's not purely about acceptance, it's about the practicality of catering for the minority at the expense of the majority.

Punishing someone for wanting to in a rational manner discuss their reservations about a certain subject is just plain wrong. Just as someone has a right to identify as they wish, someone has the right to question the demands imposed upon them by someone else's choices.

suicide_circus · 05-05-2019 12:53pm

throughout history the vehemence of the suppression of dissenters has correlated directly with the weakness of the ideology. nothing new here.

STB. · 05-05-2019 12:55pm

strandroad wrote: »

That's not what she says. There is no debate, in her manifesto she states there there should be no provision for their new identity:

A "Manifesto" ? That is not what medium.com is about. Its an opinion piece on an online journalistic platform.

There will always be debate as long as we have those recklessly hand picking what they disagreed with and quoting in isolation without reading (or refusing to) the whole piece.

That's what you did. You obviously have an agenda and are not open to reasoned argument. Your fake summarisation of the article coupled with your description of an opinion piece as a manifesto, wont fly here.

Zorya · 05-05-2019 12:56pm

strandroad wrote: »

Where is this whole sex thing coming from? If someone unwanted pesters you it's harassment or assault and should be dealt with as such.

Material reality as she is referring to it would bar trans people from accessing spaces or services. She counts a trans woman panellist as a man etc.

No material reality refers to the fact that a person does not change sex by thinking it.

And it relates to sex thusly - if YOU personally agree that self identification actually changes sex and thus allows people to enter their chosen sex spaces then it also allows them to engage sexually as that sex and be wholly accepted as thus. So, are you open to female bodied men sexually? Or do you have limits and preferences? If straight are you open to male bodied women as sexual partners? Not as pests, not as stalkers, but do you have sexual attractiondifferentiation that you make based on genotype/phenotype?

strandroad · 05-05-2019 12:56pm

STB. wrote: »

A "Manifesto" ? That is not what medium.com is about. Its an opinion piece on an online journalism website.

There will always be debate as long as we have those recklessly hand picking what they disagreed with and quoting in isolation without reading (or refusing to) the whole piece.

That's what you did. You obviously have an agenda and are not open to reasoned argument. Your fake summarisation of the article coupled with your description of an opinion piece as a manifesto, wont fly here.

Relax, call it something else then. "A summary of her opinion" is fine.

05-05-2019 12:57pm

strandroad wrote:

Then imagine that you are her coworker who transitioned but she still counts you under your past gender like she does this panellist, campaigns against you using spaces or services etc because you are a threat to their regular users. Do you think that she would be kept as an employee?

Yes.

strandroad · 05-05-2019 1:02pm

Zorya wrote: »

No material reality refers to the fact that a person does not change sex by thinking it.

And it relates to sex thusly - if YOU personally agree that self identification actually changes sex and thus allows people to enter their chosen sex spaces then it also allows them to engage sexually as that sex and be wholly accepted as thus. So, are you open to female bodied men sexually? Or do you have limits and preferences? If straight are you open to male bodied women as sexual partners? Not as pests, not as stalkers, but do you have sexual attractiondifferentiation that you make based on genotype/phenotype?

Of course everyone has sexual preferences and they will continue to do so. Where is this topic even coming from?
You can always have someone throwing a strop that a girl picked his mate over him so they call her names. Now with more combos in the mix, and Twitter.

STB. · 05-05-2019 1:04pm

strandroad wrote: »

Relax, call it something else then. "A summary of her opinion" is fine.

I am relaxed. Just don't try and tell me and others what she did and didn't say. I am well able to read.

Be careful what you post. You may be called on it. You can advance your arguements a lot better by not resorting to labelling opinion pieces as "manifestos" and certainly not mis-reporting them.

The issue is not how much accomodation should be given to people who want to be identified as a woman, man or banana, but the manner in which a Tink Tank organisation has completely over reached in sacking an employee for having a reasoned opinion.

Gimme A Pound · 05-05-2019 1:05pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Nah. Irish women reject this exclusionary nonsense https://feministire.com/2018/01/22/an-open-letter-to-the-organisers-of-the-we-need-to-talk-tour-from-a-group-of-feminists-in-ireland/

Really Joey, your posts give the impression that you are such a slave to a particular ideology/to appearing a certain way. You don't even try to understand the point she's making and you think you can speak for all Irish women. Even I can't do that - and I'm an Irish woman.

Jimbob1977 · 05-05-2019 1:09pm

How many genders, Winston?'

'Two! Stop it, stop it! How can you go on? Two! Two!'

'How many genders, Winston?'

'Three! Three! Three!'

'No, Winston, that is no use. You are lying. You still think there are two. How many genders, please?'

'Three! Three! Three! Anything you like. Only stop it, stop the pain!'

strandroad · 05-05-2019 1:10pm

STB. wrote: »

Be careful what you post. You may be called on it.

What a strange tone to take, what are you trying to say?

It's just a discussion forum, feel free to simply disagree with me.

STB. · 05-05-2019 1:13pm

strandroad wrote: »

What a strange tone to take, what are you trying to say?

It's just a discussion forum, feel free to simply disagree with me.

That you misreported what she said.

That you have your own agenda.

I have said it several times at this stage.

Perhaps you genuinely have a problem understanding words. However, that's no excuse, so drop the victim complex.

05-05-2019 1:14pm

Brendan Delaney wrote: »

'People should aspire to be submissive bootlickers who never question anything'.

Question everything, but be prepared for the consequences.
Just don't be a whingebag, "waah, I wanna say whatever I want and have no repurcussions".

The world does not and never has worked like that.

Woman Loses Job for Holding Gender Critical Opinions.

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