Freemasons: Evil secret society or misunderstood nice guys...

DeVore · 24-11-2002 6:05pm #1

Now, I've played one too many Call of Cthulhu games for my own good so I woud view the Freemasons with great suspicion.
(I'm talking about the real Freemasons here, not the Boards.ie troll).

Recently however, a good friend of mine has told me (mentioned it in passing conversation) that he's a Freemason. He has even used Boards.ie before.

This really shocked me.

I mean, this guys a good friend, smart, very very honest (painfully so at times), charitable (we got to know each other through some charity work).
He not religious, doesnt go to mass but does profess a belief in God (which is apparently sufficent, I always thought you had to be Protestant).

Now, I kinda wigged out when he told me I was all like "YOU'RE WHAT??!"

We sat and talked about it for about an hour or more, me having eyes like saucers while he explained about being a Freemason and what it means. He was very open and honest about it and I , frankly, was kinda rude. I kept asking questions like "So do you really have a secret handshake?Wow. Really?"

"Really, really???!"

Interspersed with "Do you get to talk to the aliens?!" which drew pointed stares of mock-annoyance.

So I went into DeV-Mode and asked him a ton of questions trying to nail the inconsistancy of what *I* understood Freemasons to be and what *he* was claiming it to be.

Now, understand that I've never known this guy to lie, about anything. So this doesnt fit with what I understood to be a secret society and all sorts of nefarious dodgy dealings.
However I'm losing the argument with him as I realise I actually have nothing solid to back up my contention that they arent nice guys.

Since then I've discovered that my uncle was one and that a very good friend of the family was one too (they are both dead).

I pressed my friend on the secrecy thing, like why dont you tell people you are a Freemason and his response floored me. He said: "Would you tell your friends if they reacted the way you just did?"

So I sat back and thought "Jesus, yeah, I've been really unsubtle and pretty insulting to someone I really get on with and I havent a shred of evidence apart from dodgy hearsay and my own belief that there has to be SOMETHING dodgy about them..."

Now I'm faced with a stark slap in the face: Either I'm wrong about them or he is mistaken or lying.
I dont think he's mistaken as he's been a Freemason for 3 years apparently and I doubt he's lying...
I've known him for about 8 years so I've known him before and after he's joined. I honestly cant say he's changed much. No more then you'd expect in someone growing into middle age.

So, here's my question: Anyone out there related to or know or *IS* a Freemason? Anyone got any hard evidence showing or disproving misdoing in Ireland or abroad? Am I a conspiracy nut or is there something dodgy afoot?
Anyone ever had dealings with them?

Sorry Amp, I know you think I'm obsessed but I've got this connundrum to solve now. DeVore could be wrong, and that would NEVER do

DeV.

ps: Could the Boards.ie Freemasons (or anyone else) PLEASE not troll this thread as I want to stay on topic.

pps: I've unbanned the word Freemasons for the duration of this discussion. Trolling IRA noob's will recommence afterwards.

Shinji · 24-11-2002 6:19pm

An uncle of mine is a Freemason - only found this out quite recently. He's technically a Catholic although not a practising one - again he just professes a general belief in God. Some masonic lodges don't even particularly do that.

I think that in general, Freemasonry is fairly misunderstood - it's more like a Credit Union concept but with goodwill rather than money, than a sekrit society taking over the world.

That said, in sectarian areas (Scotland in particular) it can be a pretty unpleasant thing because it does often get divided down religious lines and you get people being turned down for jobs and so on because of masonic connections, which are really only a thin layer over sectarianism. The masonic lodges in some parts of Scotland have a lot in common with Orange lodges in the North.

It's also worth noting that even if 99% of the people in a secretive organisation are good people, there's always a chance that people are involved for the wrong reasons - namely personal gain. There's a fairly long and unpleasant history in the British establishment of people with masonic connections abusing them for power gains.

And then of course there's those Boards.ie Freemasons. A more wretched hive of scum and villany....

Greenbean · 24-11-2002 8:48pm

I think Shinji has hit the nail on the head. Simply a group of people with similar interests, sharing goodwill when one-another might need it. Like extended friendship. Like any society there is potential for abuse. Even if there were to be any special agenda at the top, its pretty much of no consequence to 99% of the members. If it helps people live good lives then I for one can't be against it.

DeVore · 24-11-2002 9:04pm

Ok, GB and shinji. Fair points.

Also, lets keep the Boards.ie Freemason Troll/Joke out of this except where it may be illustrative (ie: if its secret people will PRESUME nefarious things are going on).

I'm seriously interested in this topic now

DeV.

BuffyBot · 24-11-2002 11:33pm

I'm sure the Freemasons are all very well.

I think it is the whole element of mysteriousness that goes on that annoys people. The Freemason's themselves don't seem to go out of their way to dispel that either. People who are excluded from anything will always be negative about it...

DeVore · 25-11-2002 3:07am

btw some people have contacted me via PM about this. Thats cool, if you dont want to post here, please feel free to engage in 1-1 discreet conversation.

DeV.

amp · 25-11-2002 10:08am

Originally posted by DeVore

Sorry Amp, I know you think I'm obsessed but I've got this connundrum to solve now. DeVore could be wrong, and that would NEVER do

Not at all, it's a fascinating topic and more than appropriate for Humanities.

Trolling will not be tolerated.

Slydice · 25-11-2002 10:19am

hold on, your saying the freemason's are like some sortof protestant interest group (like the uvf) ? thats ****ed up right there!

DMC · 25-11-2002 10:38am

Its peoples perceived attitude to freemasons that hangs them out to dry. As Buffybot says, its the mysterious-ness of their organisation that makes them hated or generally viewed as "a bad thing".

I hear exactly what you said, DeV, you did have a prejudged opinion of the freemasons, who you thought they are and what you thought they do, and now that you have spoken to one, you have conflicting thoughts. I *did* share those opinions, exactly the same as you, but when I read your post, I realise that I don't know any freemasons, never met one, dunno what they do. Have I prejudged this clique wrongly? Your opinions are in a state of flux. Before now, you have been dead against them, down with that sort of thing. Now you have met someone who is a freemason, you want to still believe what you thought you knew before, but realise that it doesn't hold much water. Its not yours or mine or anyone's fault; anything that we don't know, are not part of or fully understand is always under suspicion as a whole in society.

As Toyah once sang, "It's a mystery to me......."

Borzoi · 25-11-2002 10:40am

Originally posted by Shinji

I think that in general, Freemasonry is fairly misunderstood - it's more like a Credit Union concept but with goodwill rather than money, than a sekrit society taking over the world.

That said, in sectarian areas (Scotland in particular) it can be a pretty unpleasant thing because it does often get divided down religious lines and you get people being turned down for jobs and so on because of masonic connections, which are really only a thin layer over sectarianism. The masonic lodges in some parts of Scotland have a lot in common with Orange lodges in the North.

So what is the point of Freemasonry? I understand rugby and golf clubs, they exist because of the sport, and have a social and business aspect secondly. What, is the reason for the existance of the masons?

Of course, like most activities in life, if you label anything secret, you send people up the wall with suspicion - as has been seen on this boards:rolleyes:

Shinji · 25-11-2002 11:08am

So what is the point of Freemasonry? I understand rugby and golf clubs, they exist because of the sport, and have a social and business aspect secondly. What, is the reason for the existance of the masons?

Originally masonic lodges existed for dual purpose - a kind of guild for certain types of craftsmen, and a religious "club" of sorts. I'm really not sure what the stated purpose of it is now - a kind of gentlemans club, I suppose.

DeVore · 25-11-2002 11:13am

DMC.... Nail. Head. *bonk*.

I thought they were very odd and not very nice. But I never really knew anything about them, I just filed them in the "dont need to know" box. Now I've been forced to re-evaluate and they actually seem (on the surface) to be the good guys.
I love challenging my perception of hte world and I actually love being wrong (occasionally

) because the world changes slightly.

Borzoi from what I've seen they are a charitable organisation. Primarily Masons orphans and widows but in recent years it seems they have been building hospitals.

Slydice, I never linked them to terrorism or anything like that. I know quite a bit about that from family history. I just thought they were generally not well regarded and now a lot of people I know are telling me they are a bit strange but basically good.

DeV.

Typedef · 25-11-2002 12:48pm

I think Shinji has hit the nail on the head. Simply a group of people with similar interests, sharing goodwill when one-another might need it. Like extended friendship

Which is all very well and good when you are immersed in a sea of Catholicism, but is a whole different kettle of fish, where sectarianism makes a difference.

Take the Orange Order for example, in the Republic, such a group would be almost totally irrelevant, being vastly outnumbered by the traditional Catholic and growing non-practicing or atheist/agnostics. In the North of Ireland where ethnicity is expressed via Relgious divisions and institution like the Orange Order are malovalent, divisive things and lead to further ethnic strife.

I say this because I have actually read the fouding principals of the Orange Order and those founding principals are a supplicant for white supremicism, except with Relgion and Loyality to the Crown, being supplanted.

So yes, such secret institutions may seem, sublime and or benign, but if you put such entities into a situation where genuine sectarian division exists, then such institutions are simply a catalyst for entrencing sectarianism.

It's a little like Ronseal quick action varnish, with institutions like the Orange Order or Masons*, it does exactly what is says on the tin.

*If an entity or institution is based on Religion, to influence social life outside of it's relgious remit, it is a catalyst for Religious aggrivation.
http://www.serve.com/pfc/orders/loyal.html

Qualifications of an Orangeman
"An Orangeman should have a sincere love and veneration for his Heavenly Father; a humble and steadfast faith in Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, believing in Him as the only Mediator between God and man. He should cultivate truth and justice, brotherly kindness and charity, devotion and piety, concord and unity, and obedience to the laws; his deportment should be gentle and compassionate, kind and courteous; he should seek a society of the virtuous, and avoid that of the evil; he should honour and diligently study the Holy Scriptures, and make them the rule of his faith and practice; he should love, uphold, and defend the Protestant religion, and sincerely desire and endeavour to propagate its doctrines and precepts; he should strenuously oppose the fatal errors and doctrines of the Church of Rome, and scrupulously avoid countenancing (by his presence or otherwise) any act of ceremony of Popish worship; he should by all lawful means, resist the ascendancy of that Church, its encroachments, and the extension of its power, ever abstaining from all uncharitable words, actions or sentiments, towards his Roman Catholic brethren; he should remember to keep holy the Sabbath day, and attend the public worship of God, and diligently train up his offspring, and all under his control, in the fear of God, and in the Protestant faith; he should never take the name of God in vain, but abstain from all cursing and profane language, and use every opportunity of discouraging these, and all other sinful practices, in others; his conduct should be guided by wisdom and prudence, and marked by honesty, temperance, and sobriety; the glory of God and the welfare of man, the honour of his Sovereign, and the good of his country, should be the motive of his actions."
<snip>
1886 The Orange Order mobilises in opposition to Gladstone's Home Rule Bill with parades throughout the North. In a letter Randolf Churchill incites Orangemen and Unionists to violence with the call "Ulster will fight (Home Rule), Ulster will be right." Rioting follows the defeat of the Bill in June and 12 July Orange parades lead predictably to disturbances that are "probably the worst outbreak of violence that century". By mid September some 50 people had lost their lives and thousands had been driven from their workplaces and homes (Curtis, 1995, p.142 ).

The growing political role of the Orange Order in the 1880s in co-ordinating the anti-Home Rule campaign had important implications for that most public manifestation of Orangeism, i.e. the parade. The middle classes and the gentry flocked back to the Loyal Orders having deserted them in the early decades of the century as disreputable "lawless banditti". Institutional links with the emerging Ulster Unionist Party were developed and the Orders became more centralised and focused political machines. Mass mobilisations were co-ordinated in pursuit of a clear goal ; the defeat of Home Rule which the Orders claimed equaled "Rome Rule". Annual skirmishes on the highways and byways of Ulster, though they still occurred, were no longer seen as appropriate to an organisation which had regained its respectability.

DadaKopf · 25-11-2002 1:15pm

The thing that really gets people about the Freemasons, and Opus Dei, is that, well, if they're just a mutually benificent gentlemen's club, then why are they so secretive? People will naturally assume they have something to hide, whether they do or not.

If Freemasons keep their membership a secret because they fear a reaction like DeV's, wouldn't it be best to be open about it and promote understanding instead of suspicion? Unless they have something to hide. That said, there's now a publically avaliable Freemasons magazine and they've been trying to salvage their image.

Obviously there's nothing wrong with people helping each other out but where does it end? It's been the case frequently that judges in Britain have been lenient on members' court sentences etc. The Freemasons are based on ideas of Christian charity but really, that's not the way it's worked out.

Typedef · 25-11-2002 1:25pm

Bloody right, such entities are precieved to be an old boys club, that promotes the old adage that it's not what you know, but who you know that gets you ahead in this life.

To be honest, I can actually find evidence that proves the Orange Order was setup up to operate like that, in favour of Orangism and Unionism and Protestantism and actual economic exclusion of those who do not ascribe to Relgion (x). Hence Relgious sectarianism. Oh and excuse me, relgiously sectarian old boys clubs have a bad reputation, well, this is me loosing sleep for my bigotry.

WhiteWashMan · 25-11-2002 1:32pm

you should do a little digging intot he knights templar while your at it....

Samba · 25-11-2002 1:40pm

I honestly have no idea.

But if you were interested Dev i have a ton of books on them dating from the 1920's-70's ish.

Although i never read any of them the covers always envoked scandals that went on etc. but you know what they say about books, Dont judge etc etc.

Pm me dev if you want any of these books, i dont want to be seen as pimping books here, but if you are really interested I am sure i could give you a lend of them as you will find many of them are out of print.

I think it may have been their beliefs which shocked the nations when some of their secrets were revealed(pure speculation from book covers

)

Gordon · 25-11-2002 1:44pm

Originally posted by DadaKopf
That said, there's now a publically avaliable Freemasons magazine and they've been trying to salvage their image.

http://www.freemasonrytoday.co.uk/
interesting

plastic membrane · 25-11-2002 2:16pm

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
you should do a little digging intot he knights templar while your at it....

Yeah, those lads seem a bit iffy..

DeVore · 25-11-2002 2:33pm

Ah *JESUS* Typedef.....

WTF has the Orange Order got to do with this thread?? They both use the word LODGE is about all I can find.

Could we keep Opus Dei, the Orange Order, the Legion of Mary, Youth Defence and the Knights of Columbanus out of this please?

They are religious nut jobs or political animals and from what I've learned of FM's they are (or claim to be) apolitical and require only a stated belief in some god. I'm reading like an animal on this topic at the moment as the next time I meet my mate (Thursday) I want a well informed fact-based discussion with him.

Please keep unsupported rhetoric out of this. I've you've nothing useful to contribute then please dont fall in love with the sound of your own keyboard. Facts or **** off I guess

I've found this which is interesting
FM's in Ireland:
www.irish-freemasons.org

DeV.

DapperGent · 25-11-2002 2:33pm

Well David Icke seems to have a problem with them so that must mean there alright. That David Icke is crazy. Just like a goalkeeper.

DeVore · 25-11-2002 2:54pm

Ah David Icke is a reknowned fvckwit who *actually* thinks that giant 12 foot lizards rule the earth in secret (I'm NOT making this up btw... I'm just not that imaginative!)

So, back on topic again.....

DeV.

DapperGent · 25-11-2002 3:32pm

Yeah and George Bush Sr is one apparently and the perpetuation of their hegemony over the world involves ritual child abuse. For some reason. Ah David Icke. Comedy gold.

Right...um...back on topic.

The father of a bloke I knew in college was a freemason and the way he described it was as a kind of club where they just hung around and chatted, did charity work and agreed to look after the widows and orphans of members. He expected to become a member but saw it more as a bit of a laugh than anything noteworthy.

My only other experience of the freemasons involved a case of severe bullying and harrassement against a freemason within his work place due to his membership of the masons.

An unpleasant business as far as my knowledge goes and certainly unmerited.

Typedef · 25-11-2002 3:40pm

Of course deal with facts Dev. All I was picking up on was what Shinji said.

I think that in general, Freemasonry is fairly misunderstood - it's more like a Credit Union concept but with goodwill rather than money, than a sekrit society taking over the world.

That said, in sectarian areas (Scotland in particular) it can be a pretty unpleasant thing because it does often get divided down religious lines and you get people being turned down for jobs and so on because of masonic connections, which are really only a thin layer over sectarianism.

sceptre · 25-11-2002 4:13pm

Originally posted by DadaKopf
If Freemasons keep their membership a secret because they fear a reaction like DeV's, wouldn't it be best to be open about it and promote understanding instead of suspicion?

Yes it would. I've been told that one of the freemason lodges in Cork actually runs a coffee morning once a week where pretty much anyone can come in and wander around. I'll see if I can find out details (no, I'm not a freemason btw)

I'll make some proper input later.

DeVore · 25-11-2002 5:37pm

I asked my mate if the public could ever go into his lodge. According to him the public is welcome 5 days a week, 9-5 and they have a Museum...

He also says he can bring me in for a drink in the evening (ok, now I'm officially weirded-out but I opened this can of worms, I cant really cry Uncle now!)

DeV.

DMC · 25-11-2002 6:33pm

Originally posted by DeVore
He also says he can bring me in for a drink in the evening (ok, now I'm officially weirded-out but I opened this can of worms, I cant really cry Uncle now!)

He's probably already in there!

DeVore · 25-11-2002 7:15pm

He was!! My Uncle was a Freemason apparently (didnt I mention that in my first post?) but was kicked out for running away with some other wan! (he was my Uncle by marraige).
So I can at least attest that they kick people out for not being nice. I never knew that uncle though and I only found out after talking to my father about this in the last few days....

DeV.

The Gopher · 25-11-2002 7:32pm

I tried joining once but was refused membership.Why wont those jerks let me into their crappy club for jerks?:D
Devore-dont you know that boards.ie has a freemasons board?Dustaz is one of the moderators(his membership of a secret society may explain why he thinks he owns the boards and acts like an all round wanker but anyway).It is one of those forums you can only join if invited by the mod.(or if you save the life of a masonic boarder .Or if you are the son of one:D )
Anyway,Im a boards.ie Comebanous(or whatever it is).:)

DeVore · 25-11-2002 7:44pm

Gopher. I'm not snipping your post because it has one thing in it I wanted to respond to. Otherwise it would be gone....

Apparently you only need to walk in and ask to be a member to start the membership process. There is an interview and beyond that I dont know (its something I intend to press my mate on next time we meet... criteria for acceptance).
According to him they were more then happy to make him a mason even though he knew noone involved.
I'd find that hard to believe if it wasnt coming from the mouth of a good friend of mine telling me so.

Curiouser and curiouser said Alice...

DeV.

ykt0di9url7bc3 · 25-11-2002 8:09pm

It is the world's oldest and largest fraternity dating back at least to the Middle Ages. Its purpose is to promote the bonds of friendship, compassion and brotherly love. Politics has no role in it. Neither is it a religion as some would have you believe but rather a friend and promoter of all religions which are based on the belief in one God. Regardless of their position in society, Freemasons meet as equals. One of the most fascinating aspects of Freemasonry has always been how so many men from so many different walks of life can meet together in peace, never discuss politics or engage in religious debates, conduct their affairs in harmony and friendship, and call each other "Brother".

IMHO the further Religion is from politics the better, and that goes for secret societies or non secret societies too

from what i gather from my reading is that freemasons is an organisation that works for a morally sound society through charitable organisation between its members (who enjoy working together)....

what I reckon is that its a organisation like the Lions club but has a good social structure and keeps to itself...

and WWM the Knights Templar do not exist today! a couple of american rich boys prancing about in medevil get-up coz they having nothing else to do with thier money.....yeah GO TEAM!

Von · 25-11-2002 9:41pm

A fairly well connected bloke told me that every year a bunch of society's high achievers are invited to join some society or other based I think in TCD. They do charity work and the like. The initiation ceremony involves having brandy poured into your arse then being told to do a "party trick". Is that the masons? Or somebody else?

One of the most prominent idiots to complain about the Sex Pistols and punk rock turned out to be a mason boss. the name escapes me. Directly responsible for keeping God Save The Queen from number 1 I reckon.

Why are the Knights Of Columbanus "nutters"? Emily O'Reilly wrote a book about them and how they've used their wealth and power to resist secularism and liberalism and keep control of schools and hospitals. Is it unreasonable to assume that the masons operate on similar lines to protect their interests? Even if that means conflicting with national interests?

And why is Mr.Icke's made up mumbo jumbo more ridiculous than say catholicism's or proddyism's made up mumbo jumbo?

Nevyn · 25-11-2002 10:09pm

Originally posted by DeVore

WTF has the Orange Order got to do with this thread?? They both use the word LODGE is about all I can find.

DeV.

The Orange order the Purple order and the Black order are all froms of Freemasonary. They all have the same roots and traditions that have changed a lil from the main stream over the years.
The Klu Klux Klan started out as free masons.

there was two books written that detailed the history, cult and
scandal of the freemasons.

On the Plus side they appear to be like an old boys club they admit Male members over 21 of a certain goodstanding, and of indepent means . They have many members in what was considered white collar professions and they all look out for each other. Excellent for networking, and yes they do charitible works.

The problem that arose in the UK in the late 80's early 90's was that Freemasons as part of thier Oaths swear to uphold thier brothers in the lodge and in the masons above all others.

In the Uk you had a lot of big crimnal types in lodges with upper ranking policemen and they were all looking after their brothers.
This is all public record and was in the papers.
So the policemen got together and started froming thier own lodges, so there is still the whole who is in the club and who isnt and who will promot and support if not your lodge brother ?

The Freemasons as a rule do not admit women but exception was made when the current Queen of england was instated, and a ladies leauge was formed. Before that the only ladies that were allowed was Lodge members ladies wives at certain functions.

The only member of the royal family in england that came out about being asked to join the Freemasons Was PRince Charles and he spoke publicly about it and the fact that he refused for he would not comprise himself in such a way. ( about the only thing i respect him for)

Yes they are not currently fussy about religion but as the website state you must belive in a supreme being toherwise you could swear thier oaths.

So they might be nice and legit, currently they are trying to go public and gain back the creditibly and respectiblity they had before the police scandals. but the danger is that if you join and you benifit from your membership what will asked of you in return as in to support your lodge brother ?

bonkey · 25-11-2002 11:08pm

Originally posted by Thaed
The problem that arose in the UK in the late 80's early 90's was that Freemasons as part of thier Oaths swear to uphold thier brothers in the lodge and in the masons above all others
....
but the danger is that if you join and you benifit from your membership what will asked of you in return as in to support your lodge brother ?

Now, see, this takes one of the things I have noticed in all the reading Ive done about these guys (which isnt, admittedly, all that detailed), and turns it about face into some vague conspiracy again.

The Freemasons swear to uphold each other, but they also swear not to use their membership to influence and gain power.

Now, this has a large loophole in it. If I, as a freemason, were interviewing two people for a job, and one was a freemason also...what are the implications. They are that he cannot directly ask me to be swayed by his membership....but I must "uphold" him...which influences me anyway.

I wouldnt necessarily stretch this as far as the police scandals imply, but the question is there....if upholding your "brother" is of higher importance than all else, where does that stop?

(As an aside, one would have to ask how the Freemasons could include these criminal figures as "men of good stature")

Now - dont get me wrong...I'm not necessarily saying this does happen, nor that it is even necessarily wrong, but it is something I have a problem with about the Freemasons - the lack of clarity in this particular area.

jc

The Corinthian · 25-11-2002 11:32pm

The problem with trying to define freemasonry is that it’s a rather wide ranging paradigm that in many respects defies definition (and hence not really a paradigm

). I know and have known freemasons in the past and would echo the sentiments of seeing it as a benign old boys club. The Knights of Columbanus (the Roman Catholic response to freemasonry) is much the same.

Given this the Orange Order would also be born from freemasonry, as would the Klu Klux Klan, both of which that have ideologies that contain undertones of ethnic purity, to one degree or other. Then we also have groups such as the P2 Masonic lodge that influenced Italian politics from the end of World War II, was implicated in collusion with the CIA and saw Roberto Calvi hanging from a bridge in London with pieces of masonry in his pockets.

So I think it would be both unfair and unwise to lump them in together - unfair to the benign and unwise in dealing with the more sinister orders.

sceptre · 26-11-2002 2:17am

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Then we also have groups such as the P2 Masonic lodge that influenced Italian politics from the end of World War II, was implicated in collusion with the CIA and saw Roberto Calvi hanging from a bridge in London with pieces of masonry in his pockets.

And with the Banco Ambrosiano scandal (which led David Yallop to conclude that Freemasons had killed John Paul I. David Yallop does have tendencies to see conspiracies everywhere mind you) - see here for (at least) conjecture on the events. The David Yallop book ("In God's Name") (you'll either believe it or laugh at it) is probably worth a read though, I haven't read it since I was 12 - found it interesting at the time as the bishop of Cloyne (including Mallow) when I read it had been John Paul I's secretary in 1978.

The Freemason hierarchy was fairly quick to expel the entire P2 lodge after details of the corruption emerged - one could still make a case against the freemasons on the basis of the P2/Ambrosiano scandal however given that they are certainly an organisation whose ultimate motives (even if good - and that's still up for discussion) can be twisted by members for their own gain, given that they do conduct themselves in secret. I'll probably get round to that one of the days:) (still very busy with project work:() but a few people (bonkey to name one) have briefly highlighted that already.

As an aside Freemasons were automatically excommunicated from the catholic church from 1917 (canon 2335) until Canon law was amended in 1983 (new canon 1374) and limited the excommunication to people who "plot against the Church" (previously Freemasonry had been specifically named). The automatic excommunication is still in force, at least officially but is now on more of a case by case thing. No-one has actually been excommunicated for being a member since the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith promulgated the 1983 code - make of that what you will.

There had been a similar edict since 1738 (see In Eminenti Apostolatus Specula, Clement XII, 1738 for details (Latin unfortunately)). The catholic church will never officially drop this provision - Leo XII dropped papal infallibility (FYI for the uninformed or hitherto uninterested: "papal infallibility" supposedly means that the Pope, when speaking ex-cathedra on a matter of faith and morals, cannot err) into the equation in 'Quo Graviora' when he confirmed Clement XII's decision. Infallibility was declared by the First Vatican Council as being retroactive to all preceding popes. Contraception will be accepted before any man in a pointy hat living in Rome officially drops the provision.

(in my opinion it's all crap but it's genuinely fun on the extremely rare occasion someone half mentions canon law to me when trying to prove their point - I read it all and learned it all before deciding that organised religion was indeed akin to opium for the masses)

Again as an aside (to reply to DapperGent), George Bush is unlikely to be a mason. He was (& is, I suppose) a member of the Skull & Bones fraternity at Yale, which has some elements in common with freemasonry but nothing of consequence. There have been plenty of US Presidents that were masons - starting with the first one. I'll get to the problems with associating the freemasons with the KKK later

Still have to make that relevant post....:eek:

BuffyBot · 26-11-2002 2:18am

Originally posted by DeVore
I asked my mate if the public could ever go into his lodge. According to him the public is welcome 5 days a week, 9-5 and they have a Museum...

He also says he can bring me in for a drink in the evening (ok, now I'm officially weirded-out but I opened this can of worms, I cant really cry Uncle now!)

DeV.

Dispels the common myth of secrecy and cloak and dagger- yness anyway!

You should go for the drink. As they say, new experiences are good.

DapperGent · 26-11-2002 2:41am

Originally posted by sceptre
Again as an aside (to reply to DapperGent), George Bush is unlikely to be a mason. He was (& is, I suppose) a member of the Skull & Bones fraternity at Yale, which has some elements in common with freemasonry but nothing of consequence.

Now Sceptre I never said that George W. Bush was a freemason. I said that George Bush Snr. was a 1000 year old 12 foot tall Jewish shape shifting lizard, who from time to time (when he feels the need) engages in ritual child abuse so he can recharge his mystical powers.

I must protest that my views on this matter have been so cruelly misrepresented.

Slydice · 26-11-2002 2:57am

DeVore, can i ask you 2 questions (feel free not to answer if they are to close to home - or you feel answering them would damagae your rep;))

Are you a Catholic / Protestant or of another following?

Would you consider yourself more FreeMason than Knight of Comeonbanus or Vice-Versa?

Please don't pick up on those questions the wrong way, I'm just trying to understand your view-point more clearly! (definitly feel free to tell me where to shove the questions if ye like

)

DeVore · 26-11-2002 4:10pm

Originally posted by Slydice
DeVore, can i ask you 2 questions (feel free not to answer if they are to close to home - or you feel answering them would damagae your rep;))

Are you a Catholic / Protestant or of another following?

No problem at all Slydice:

I was born a Catholic, educated by Jesuits and I rejected the need for middle men in my spirituality at about 18.
I think of myself as agnostic which means I believe there is something else out there, I'm just not sure we can ever know what it is. I'm also not convinced it particularly cares about humans.
(this is an EXCELLENT explanation of agnosticism: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic )

I dont go to Mass though I will attend friends marraiges etc under any religious doctrine.
I've adopted Christian morality as part of my personal code (along with a sprinkling of eastern philosophy and my own personal feelings).
If you asked me to define that I would say:

" Treat others as you would like to be treated, so long as they wish it". (the latter bit is tagged on to close a logical hole which would allow sado-masochists to run around whipping people (that being how they would like "to be treated")).
I've given this a lot of thought you see

If thats too complex then "Be Nice" is a close approximation.

Would you consider yourself more FreeMason than Knight of Comeonbanus or Vice-Versa?

Please don't pick up on those questions the wrong way, I'm just trying to understand your view-point more clearly! (definitly feel free to tell me where to shove the questions if ye like ) [/B]

Um, I dont follow you... are you talking about the Boards.ie private boards of mates or the real things?

I'll presume you are talking about the real things. I dont want the Boards.ie in-jokes to detract from this topic:

Previously I would have said "to hell with both of them" but the more I read about FM's the more I realise I may have been wrong about them. They are, on the surface, not what I expected.

My personal morals go along these lines:
(btw there is no order to these)

1. You do what you want so long as it hurts noone else.
2. I'll do as I see fit so long as it hurts noone else.
3. I will stop people from hurting other people
4. I will NOT stop people from doing what they want UNLESS they are hurting others.
5. In general I will try to "see fit" to help people who need it.

Now, its number 4 that makes me have a problem with the Knights (and most religious groups) because they profess to want to SPREAD their morality (ie: tell you how you should live even though you arent hurting anyone).

I presumed that the FM was the same, though now it seems they are more akin to my thinking that I believed. I would have been happy to write that off as good PR except for this friend of mine who wont retract his statement of belief in them and isnt making it easy for me to quickly pidgeon-hole him (as I'd like to! hehehh...)

I've been trying to read un-biased information (a lot harder then you think), and the most believeable seems to come from:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry

While the various styles of Freemasonry around the world may differ in many ways, they all more or less tend towards nondogmatism, albeit often within certain defined limits. This openness has led to friction between Masonry and organizations which view ecumenism with a negative eye, or insist on intolerance towards other forms of belief and worship.

I'd like to see someone prove a link to the KKK cos I cant find even the nutters claiming that. Can anyone offer a trusted source on that?

I have only found this:

In 1775, an African American named Prince Hall was initiated into an Irish Constitution Military Lodge, along with fourteen other African Americans, all of whom were free by birth. When the Military Lodge left the area, the Black gentlemen were given the authority to meet as a Lodge, form Processions on the days of the Saints John, and conduct Masonic funerals, but not to confer degrees or do other Masonic Work. These individuals applied for, and obtained, a Warrant for Charter from the Grand Lodge of England in 1784 and formed African Lodge #459. Despite being stricken from the rolls for non-payment of dues after 1813, the Lodge restyled itself as the African Grand Lodge #1 (not to be confused with the various Grand Lodges on the Continent of Africa) and separated from commonly recognised Masonry. At the present time, it is recognised by some Grand Lodges and not by others, and appears to be working its way toward full recognition. ([1])

which is also from Wikipedia...

On a note about "trust" its very hard to know who to believe, especially on the internet. **** can just be made up as in this:
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxil_hoax
(which has some screamingly funny links off it).

The problem is that I have been trying to find sources that are incisive, critical (in the true sense of the word) and unbaised.
However I keep coming up with stuff like this:
http://www.iahf.com/other/981103a.html
Which while funny, isnt adding to my factual knowledge.
And this:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0093/0093_01.asp
which (since the fundamentalists dont seem to like them) gives them some kudos from my reactionary side

I'm playing Devils Advocate left right and centre here btw.

DeV.

viruswithshoes · 26-11-2002 6:16pm

Right I'll be real quick but I'll be back.

The masons are non sectarian, anyone can join provided that they believe in god (Who they refer to as "the great architect of the universe" to save god/buddha/allah arguments). It is huge in Frnace which is a catholic country.

The reason that it is mainly prodtestant here is for the same reason that for a long time Catholics wouldn't go to TCD, the church wouldn't let them.

DeVore · 26-11-2002 6:45pm

Viruswithshoes can you tell us a little more about where your knowledge comes from?

Thats a curious name because its one of my favourite expressions when I'm annoyed with man's inhumanity to man (and environment). "Humans, we're just a viri with shoes!".

I heard it somewhere before.

This is really a fascinating topic, I've had a lot of interesting PM's with people and its really getting my mental faculties engaged. There are issues of trust here that I've not really chewed out completely before.

Who can you trust and how do you know?

Personally I only trust one person completely and thats me. After that I trust my family to tell me what they consider the truth. They *can* however be wrong. Come to think of it, so can I. But lets not go there just now.

I trust my mates, the longer I've known them, the more likely I am to trust them. etc....

This is all obvious and all but how *could* a group *prove* that nefarious things *werent* going on. Its almost impossible when you think of it. I'm not specifically talking about the masons either but obviously it would apply to them too.

Equally how could you let the world know that nefarious things WERE going on without sounding like a nutjob.

I dunno, I find this stuff fascinating.

DeV.

Slydice · 26-11-2002 7:11pm

thanks DeVore,

yes i was talkin real life

never be devils advocate, it gets you involved in way to much grief

DeVore · 26-11-2002 7:50pm

Angels fear to clean my boots after I've been out!

I dont back off from confrontation around freedom to discuss most topics... Boards is a good way to do it too.

So why did you ask me those questions? and what do you think of my answers?

DeV.

monument · 26-11-2002 8:03pm

yes its all very fascinating

the only think I trust as even half fact about them is from the bbc...

Freemasons - moral guardians or centre of corruption
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_8000/8063.stm

(yes i know i have posted link this before in admin, but some of you might not have seen it)

DeVore · 26-11-2002 8:40pm

An interesting piece monument. Yes, I'd pretty much trust the BBC more then any other news source. However that piece poses questions without answers. They give both sides of the story without backing either up with hard fact...

So I finished reading it thinking: Well I understand the question now, pity it didnt give me any answers....

DeV.

Sticky · 27-11-2002 1:58am

I imagine the best way to find out what it's all about is to go and join - what harm could it do? You can always leave if you don't like it (can't you?).

And if there is a conspiracy, please tell me. I love conspiracies.

Thanks for the link to
chick.com, I am still wondering whether it's a beautiful parody or not. Hilarious!

viruswithshoes · 27-11-2002 3:20am

Who do I trust? Well my old man for one, he's in the brotherhood and is remarkably candid about what goes on. So the facts re: the masons as I understand them:

A: Non sectarian, anyone can join as per my earlier post, I know of Muslim masons. You must seek out membership, they will not approach you. You must be 21 or 18 if you are the son of a mason. You must be of good character, following his assault conviction footballer Duncan Fergusan was denied membership, there is a whole Scottish / English rite thing going on, the Irish Masons resemble the Scottish rite.

B: Mainly charitable in a look out for your own sort of way. The reason my dad joined was because his father was member and kicked the bucket when he was 7. The Masons educated him, there was a masonic school in dublin that is now closed, generally kids whose education is paid for (in Leinster anyway) attend the likes of Kings Hospital and Wesley in Dublin or Wilsons in Westmeath. These days hardship will get your bastard offspring educated privatly. These are "prod" schools, this is because most irish masons are prodtestant (see my earlier post), but if you want your kid to go to Blackrock/Gonzaga/Belvo then it could be acceptable (not clongowes though, ****ing jesuit bastards

) . They have also paid for some ambulances for the Irish Wheelchair Association.

C: Definate Knights Templer ( a Catholic outfit by the way ) connection, there is a book called the Second Messiah that explores this in great detail, its a fantastic read and gives a likely theory on the creation of the shroud of Turin. The English rite tried to suppress this as it offended the English Monarchy who they were trying to court in the 1800's (Prince Phillip is a member by the way) and traces its history to about 1812 or so, the scottish rite goes back to roughly the time that the Templers were destroyed by Phillip the Fair in France. As a result many of the rituals were lost as they might offend royalty ( they mainly dealt with the "true" story of Jesus of Nazarith instead of what orgainised religion has been feeding us for 2000 years) have been lost.

There is more too it than meets the eye, my dad is a 4th degree mason (there are 35 levels) and he says that he would not be surprised if there really is some freaky world controlling illuminaty x-files **** going on with the higher ups .

E: My Dad has never expressed an interest/desire for me to join, not interesting but obviously he either wants to protect me from the conspiracy, doesn't think that I'd be into the charity bull**** or doesn't want me in his ****ing club.

It is 2.22, I'm tired, I'm going to bed, some of this may not make sense, this is what I understand to be true. Or maybe I'm a 34th degree brother spouting bull**** to throw you all off of the trail.

viruswithshoes · 27-11-2002 3:24am

Oh I forgot, my handle. Bill Hicks.

Was referenced in the Preacher comic book.

Agent Smith also refered to humanity as a virus in the Matrix.

But for me, its Bill Hicks.

sunbeam · 27-11-2002 4:19am

So are there any similar organisations for women?

DeVore · 27-11-2002 1:29pm

Apparently so, but I havent looked into them (being a bloke and all).

Right now I'm fascinated and curious but I'm not about to sign up to anything!!
I am going to go to have a drink this week with my mate and see. As much to buzz my head then to genuinely find out about masonry.

I'm probably thinking about this more along the lines of a Call of Cthulhu investigation (which is a game I have played a lot of!).

Hmmm.... its really hard to know who to trust here but a few friends of mine have fathers in it and they'd be pretty sceptical people and they consider it an old boys club who do the odd good deed to make it more acceptible...

I dunno. I'm going to have a good poke around when I go to the toilets tho

DeV.

Freemasons: Evil secret society or misunderstood nice guys...

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