Woman Loses Job for Holding Gender Critical Opinions.

Zorya · 05-05-2019 10:35am #1

Maya Forstater is a internationally renowned researcher on Tax Avoidance, who worked until recently at the London office of the Centre for Global Development (CGD) think tank.

In March she wrote an article calling for open debate about the consequences of Gender Self ID, particularly with respect to the implications for women. She says womanhood is defined by biological fact not by feeling.

This is the article.
https://medium.com/@MForstater/international-development-lets-talk-about-sex-eb9de927c787

She has been fired from her position on the grounds that she used ''offensive and exclusionary language'' and that she is ''fear-mongering''.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tax-expert-fired-for-saying-trans-women-aren-t-women-tpqgnm9vj

Forstater said: “I support transgender people’s human rights and I believe that trans people are vulnerable, but no one group should overrerule others. I lost my job for speaking up about women’s rights, in a careful way and in a tone of ordinary discussion and disagreement. I worked for a think tank and I thought you ought to be able to think and talk about things. I found out I was wrong about that.”

She is backed by Index on Censorship, whose director, Jodie Ginsberg, said: “From what I have read of her writing, I cannot see that Maya has done anything wrong other than express an opinion that many feminists share — that there should be a public and open debate about the distinction between sex and gender.”

In an email, a CGD manager said: “You stated that a man’s internal feeling that he is a woman has no basis in material reality. A lot of people would find that offensive and exclusionary.”

She is taking her employer to court to argue that ...

no one should be discriminated against for having gender critical views, and talking about them.

If we can establish that gender critical beliefs are protected under the Equality Act 2010, this would help protect others who are afraid of losing their jobs because of the beliefs they hold, and also those facing belief discrimination outside the employment field.

https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/fired-maya/

When people are so gleeful about certain opinions being censored on internet platfroms, remember that censorship can extend exponentially. Their opinions censored today, yours tomorrow. Their job today, yours tomorrow.

Biological facts are now a reason for censorship and job loss.

spurious · 05-05-2019 10:41am

Thought crime.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-05-2019 10:47am

Agh we just finished with the last gender thread!!!

I honestly don't see how bloody hard it is to use pronouns without making a ****ing political point.

That said, someone's viewpoints should not be used for employment proceedings unless a) they advocate violence or extreme hate-speech, or b) they bring them into the workplace environment and start using it as soapbox.

EmmetSpiceland · 05-05-2019 10:49am

Ah, so there’s the consequences of free speech I keep hearing about. Good to see it in action.

Zorya · 05-05-2019 10:51am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Agh we just finished with the last gender thread!!!

I honestly don't see how bloody hard it is to use pronouns without making a ****ing political point.

That said, someone's viewpoints should not be used for employment proceedings unless a) they advocate violence or extreme hate-speech, or b) they bring them into the workplace environment and start using it as soapbox.

The gender threads will continue Princess because it is a major human rights issue in the present time. The erasure of women and especially lesbians is ongoing so the discussions should continue.

The issue is not about mere pronouns, that is completely reductive. You would have to read the source material to see its scope. It is about bodily integrity, safe spaces, fairness in sports, among other important issues. No one gives a continental damn about mere pronouns.

El_Bee · 05-05-2019 10:52am

She should have thought about that before having illegal opinions.

YFlyer · 05-05-2019 10:52am

What is her view on lesbians sharing space and services that women use?

98q76e12hrflnk · 05-05-2019 10:54am

The liberals are the true fascist

Zorya · 05-05-2019 10:56am

YFlyer wrote: »

What is her view on lesbians sharing space and services that women use?

Are you kidding around?

YFlyer · 05-05-2019 10:59am

'This can lead to situations where lesbians face social pressure to have sex with men who identify as women'

Do women have a mind of their own?

YFlyer · 05-05-2019 10:59am

Zorya wrote: »

Are you kidding around?

Read her article.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-05-2019 11:00am

Zorya wrote: »

The gender threads will continue Princess because it is a major human rights issue in the present time. The erasure of women and especially lesbians is ongoing so the discussions should continue.

Yeah, I know, I wasn't being serious!

The issue is not about mere pronouns, that is completely reductive. You would have to read the source material to see its scope. It is about bodily integrity, safe spaces, fairness in sports, among other important issues. No one gives a continental damn about mere pronouns.

When I say "right" pronouns, I mean the requested ones. The person in the body is going to be in a better position to know which pronouns are the most apt. But believe me, it starts with the pronouns.

What I believe we're talking about here is TERF as opposed to gender identity. I've heard it argued (although not really researched it, to be fair so am not condoning the opinion) that it's just another form of transphobia.

Brendan Delaney · 05-05-2019 11:04am

A man cannot turn himself into a woman, no matter what the progressive Taliban types want us to believe.

JohnnyFlash · 05-05-2019 11:06am

It’s starting to look like women are the losers in this. They are further down the hierarchy of victimhood than they once were.

Sonics2k · 05-05-2019 11:10am

While this is a really important topic, and one she should certainly not have lost her job for, this thread is just going to descend in to the usual Transpeople bashing.

Brendan Delaney wrote: »

A man cannot turn himself into a woman, no matter what the progressive Taliban types want us to believe.

Oh wait, there it is.

Brendan Delaney · 05-05-2019 11:11am

Sonics2k wrote: »

While this is a really important topic, and one she should certainly not have lost her job for, this thread is just going to descend in to the usual Transpeople bashing.

Oh wait, there it is.

Get over yourself.

Zorya · 05-05-2019 11:12am

YFlyer wrote: »

'This can lead to situations where lesbians face social pressure to have sex with men who identify as women'

Do women have a mind of their own?

I sincerely doubt any woman who is a lesbian is going to have sex with a person with a penis just because said penis haver has said they are a woman. But then again, maybe I am incorrect on that, maybe some do. Having said that there is a growing movement called Get The L Out, because of the cotton ceiling crap and because women holding Lesbians Don't Have Penises signs are not welcome at Pride parades. In fact they are being bodily removed by police for daring to think such things. I think the world has gone mad. Lesbians like women!

Yesterday at Swansea Pride, the police engaged a lesbian who had a sign saying Transactivism erases lesbians...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5yHI_8X4AAPkdW.jpg

Otherwise, the police were having family friendly fun in Swansea...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5ywx6RW4AIU3AM.jpg

Annasopra · 05-05-2019 11:13am

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

It’s starting to look like women are the losers in this. They are further down the hierarchy of victimhood than they once were.

Nah. Irish women reject this exclusionary nonsense

https://feministire.com/2018/01/22/an-open-letter-to-the-organisers-of-the-we-need-to-talk-tour-from-a-group-of-feminists-in-ireland/

Augme · 05-05-2019 11:15am

I'd have fired her for stupidity over any thing else. This has to one of the dumbest things I have ever read

This can lead to situations where lesbians face social pressure to have sex with men who identify as women

STB. · 05-05-2019 11:15am

El_Bee wrote: »

She should have thought about that before having illegal opinions.

It is not illegal to have an opinion.

c.p.w.g.w · 05-05-2019 11:17am

YFlyer wrote: »

'This can lead to situations where lesbians face social pressure to have sex with men who identify as women'

Do women have a mind of their own?

Well in the US those women would be labelled transphopic

suicide_circus · 05-05-2019 11:18am

Augme wrote: »

I'd have fired her for stupidity over any thing else. This has to one of the dumbest things I have ever read

nothing wrong with a bit of girl dick

El_Bee · 05-05-2019 11:19am

STB. wrote: »

It is not illegal to have an opinion.

It should be in some cases, in many ways free speech was a mistake.

Zorya · 05-05-2019 11:20am

Sonics2k wrote: »

While this is a really important topic, and one she should certainly not have lost her job for,.

This is the point. She nor anyone else should lose their job for having opinions about this issue that are contradictory to what is politically acceptable. It is a very dangerous road to go down. Frightening really.

Squatter · 05-05-2019 11:20am

YFlyer wrote: »

Do women have a mind of their own?

Kindly define "women" for me.

I'd hate to post an opinion that might get me into trouble with Terry the Budgie.

Candamir · 05-05-2019 11:21am

YFlyer wrote: »

'This can lead to situations where lesbians face social pressure to have sex with men who identify as women'

Do women have a mind of their own?

Augme wrote: »

I'd have fired her for stupidity over any thing else. This has to one of the dumbest things I have ever read

Go and have a look at some of the lesbian bashing on twitter. Apparently lesbians need to learn to like dick, and if they don’t, they’re transphobes.

I’m no expert, but I always thought the reason they were lesbian was because they don’t like dick. Totally confused now. That must make me a TERF too.

Zorya · 05-05-2019 11:24am

Candamir wrote: »

Go and have a look at some of the lesbian bashing on twitter. Apparently lesbians need to learn to like dick, and if they don’t, they’re transphobes.

I’m no expert, but I always thought the reason they were lesbian was because they don’t like dick. Totally confused now. That must make me a TERF too.

I find it odd that there is not such a big push towards gay guys having to consider men with pussies and boobs as sexually desirable. It's almost as if this is men telling women (again) what they should and should not like.

05-05-2019 11:24am

Once again, a person was allowed an opinion and faced the consequences of having that opinion.

Saying things have consequences!

I'm free to call my boss all manners of names to their face, however the consequence would be that I'd probably get sacked.

I don't get how people have forgotten that consequences are actual things!

EmmetSpiceland · 05-05-2019 11:24am

People need to decide whether they want to be in politics or work in the private sector. All this soap boxing smacks of desperation to get some sort of 15 minutes of Twitter fame.

I can’t believe this woman thought her opinion was going to be met with resounding applause. There’s an appetite in the corporate world for inclusion and recognition, it’s good PR, and she would have been aware of this.

Augme · 05-05-2019 11:24am

Candamir wrote: »

Go and have a look at some of the lesbian bashing on twitter. Apparently lesbians need to learn to like dick, and if they don’t, they’re transphobes.

I’m no expert, but I always thought the reason they were lesbian was because they don’t like dick. Totally confused now. That must make me a TERF too.

Well, if it's on Twitter....

BattleCorp · 05-05-2019 11:25am

El_Bee wrote: »

It should be in some cases, in many ways free speech was a mistake.

There's a very big difference in having a discussion about a topic that many people have different view about and going out shouting 'kill the gays, kill the nigg3rs, kill the Irish'.

They are two very different things.

If what that lady said can be considered hate speech, we are really fcuked.

RasTa · 05-05-2019 11:26am

^ That's your problem then, looking at Twitter.

Candamir · 05-05-2019 11:30am

Augme wrote: »

Well, if it's on Twitter....

It’s in real life too, but I’m not a transphobic, ‘not into dick’ lesbian, so it’s not directed at me.

Anyways, if Twitter doesn’t count, I guess Martina Navratilova can have her job back.

Zorya · 05-05-2019 11:31am

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

People need to decide whether they want to be in politics or work in the private sector. .

And what happens when it spreads to the private sector? When it is enshrined in legislation that everyone must accept and recite feelings over biology in all circumstances?

STB. · 05-05-2019 11:31am

El_Bee wrote: »

It should be in some cases, in many ways free speech was a mistake.

Because it doesn't conform to yours ?

Freedom of Speech and Freedom of opinion.

If you do not like it, move to a dictatorship and see how you get on.

In my opinion there is too much shíte talk about this whole subject for what is a minuscule issue. She is very likely to win her case.

EmmetSpiceland · 05-05-2019 11:35am

Zorya wrote: »

And what happens when it spreads to the private sector? When it is enshrined in legislation that everyone must accept and recite feelings over biology in all circumstances?

You work under the guidelines the employer sets out for you. If you don’t like them you don’t have to work there.

There are currently a large number of teachers working in catholic schools teaching religion to kids, the ones who don’t have a problem with that carry on, the ones who do teach in a non-denominational.

Augme · 05-05-2019 11:37am

Candamir wrote: »

It’s in real life too, but I’m not a transphobic, ‘not into dick’ lesbian, so it’s not directed at me.

Anyways, if Twitter doesn’t count, I guess Martina Navratilova can have her job back.

Ive never seen or heard of a situation where a lesbian has had to have sex with someone who has a penis because "society" told her to.

Elmer Jones · 05-05-2019 11:38am

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

You work under the guidelines the employer sets out for you. If you don’t like them you don’t have to work there.

There are currently a large number of teachers working in catholic schools teaching religion to kids, the ones who don’t have a problem with that carry on, the ones who do teach in a non-denominational.

She didn't express those opinions in work.

Your employer should have no control over opinions you express outside of work.

Zorya · 05-05-2019 11:40am

STB. wrote: »

Because it doesn't conform to yours ?

Freedom of Speech and Freedom of opinion.

If you do not like it, move to a dictatorship and see how you get on.

In my opinion there is too much shíte talk about this whole subject for what is a minuscule issue. She is very likely to win her case.

There is a lot of ****e talk and maybe it is a fringe issue but it has much wider implications that will only grow in time - there is now compulsory speech, but eventually there will be compulsory thought.
Essentially what one is asked to believe and say is that a human being changes their sex according to their inner feelings. This is not possible.
I am not saying that people should not be allowed to feel like whatever sex they want, that's fine and it has no implications in most of ordinary life - but when it comes to certain important and pragmatic issues like prisons, domestic violence refuges, rape crises shelters, hospitals, sports scholarships, showering facilities in secondary schools and so on - these are open to abuse, even by messers and also by people with bad intentions.

Brendan Delaney · 05-05-2019 11:41am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Once again, a person was allowed an opinion and faced the consequences of having that opinion.

Saying things have consequences!

I'm free to call my boss all manners of names to their face, however the consequence would be that I'd probably get sacked.

I don't get how people have forgotten that consequences are actual things!

'People should aspire to be submissive bootlickers who never question anything'.

suicide_circus · 05-05-2019 11:41am

https://medium.com/@transphilosophr/what-is-girldick-9363515e0bfd

Fr_Dougal · 05-05-2019 11:42am

Will somebody wake me up when all of this is over and tell me what I should think, please. It seems that none of us are allowed to have our own views on certain subjects anymore.

I’ll draw the line at calling myself ‘cis’, isn’t it gas that the same people who want us to accept all LBGTQ+ terms, are the very ones who want us to change how straight people refer to themselves.

Let the double standards continue until they eat themselves.

EmmetSpiceland · 05-05-2019 11:42am

Elmer Jones wrote: »

She didn't express those opinions in work.

Your employer should have no control over opinions you express outside of work.

When you become “world renowned” for your work I think the waters get muddied.

A junior employee who no one knows where they are employed is probably fine to spout nonsense but when you’re further up the food chain you’re going to face potential consequences, whether right or wrong.

Augme · 05-05-2019 11:43am

Elmer Jones wrote: »

She didn't express those opinions in work.

Your employer should have no control over opinions you express outside of work.

Employers can never control what an employee says outside work. However an employer should have the right to decide if they want to no longer employ someone based on opinions they have expressed outside of work.

Gimme A Pound · 05-05-2019 11:47am

Deleted User wrote: »

Once again, a person was allowed an opinion and faced the consequences of having that opinion.

Saying things have consequences!

I'm free to call my boss all manners of names to their face, however the consequence would be that I'd probably get sacked.

I don't get how people have forgotten that consequences are actual things!

And in this case the consequences are ridiculously harsh, which is what's being discussed. Anyone can see that if they're honest.

She didn't call her boss anything.

Zorya · 05-05-2019 11:47am

suicide_circus wrote: »

https://medium.com/@transphilosophr/what-is-girldick-9363515e0bfd

I read that article once last year SC, please don't make me read it again

STB. · 05-05-2019 11:49am

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

You work under the guidelines the employer sets out for you. If you don’t like them you don’t have to work there.

There are currently a large number of teachers working in catholic schools teaching religion to kids, the ones who don’t have a problem with that carry on, the ones who do teach in a non-denominational.

Yes but she wasn't a religion teacher working in a catholic school.

She was working in a tink tank. She was fired on the grounds that she used ''offensive and exclusionary language'' and that she is ''fear-mongering''.

They will not be able to prove any of that. The gobshíte employers made a massive mistake tackling the issue with dismissal, and are on a hiding to nothing. The fact that they are a Tink Tank makes it all the worse.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-05-2019 11:49am

STB. wrote: »

Because it doesn't conform to yours ?

Freedom of Speech and Freedom of opinion.

If you do not like it, move to a dictatorship and see how you get on.

In my opinion there is too much shíte talk about this whole subject for what is a minuscule issue. She is very likely to win her case.

Different things. Everyone has freedom of opionin, not everyone has freedom of speech.

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

You work under the guidelines the employer sets out for you. If you don’t like them you don’t have to work there.

There are currently a large number of teachers working in catholic schools teaching religion to kids, the ones who don’t have a problem with that carry on, the ones who do teach in a non-denominational.

BUt does the employer have a right to dictate to you hoe you express yourself outside of the workplace?

Franz Von Peppercorn · 05-05-2019 11:50am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Once again, a person was allowed an opinion and faced the consequences of having that opinion.

Saying things have consequences!

I'm free to call my boss all manners of names to their face, however the consequence would be that I'd probably get sacked.

I don't get how people have forgotten that consequences are actual things!

If people get fired for fairly moderate opinions then we hardly live in a free society. I don’t buy the only governments can censor ideology.

Candamir · 05-05-2019 11:50am

Augme wrote: »

Ive never seen or heard of a situation where a lesbian has had to have sex with someone who has a penis because "society" told her to.

So it’s ok so long as nobody is actually forced to have sex against their will.

Do you think the bullying that these lesbians get is ok?
Would it be ok if it were young heterosexual women who were being bullied on twitter for not ‘putting out’ ?

TheValeyard · 05-05-2019 11:51am

El_Bee wrote: »

in many ways free speech was a mistake.

Never, ever get into a position of power.

Woman Loses Job for Holding Gender Critical Opinions.

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