Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

handlemaster · 25-10-2018 8:50am #1

Where to next for the government. LL cant choose tenants, cant raise rent over a certain level, pay high taxes (not treated like other businesses), reduced rights with regard to getting properties back, short term let. Can the barrel be scraped any more for pointless ideas by this government ?

Wanderer78 · 25-10-2018 8:51am

handlemaster wrote:

Where to next for the government. LL cant choose tenants, cant raise rent over a certain level, pay high taxes (not treated like other businesses), reduced rights with regard to geting properties back, short term let. Can the barrel be scraped any more for pointless ideas by this government ?

Patience, im sure there's plenty of more pointless and frankly dangerous ideas to come to deal with this calamity

Borderfox · 25-10-2018 8:54am

Airbnb was originally used as a rent your spare room but now its used for entire properties, does this not fall foul of planning laws?

circular flexing · 25-10-2018 8:56am

Restrictions like this are becoming more the norm in cities where AirBnb operates - surprised it took the government this long to do something about it.

SusanC10 · 25-10-2018 8:57am

Is there a List of the affected areas outside of Dublin ? Or is it just Dublin ?

handlemaster · 25-10-2018 8:57am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Patience, im sure there's plenty of more pointless and frankly dangerous ideas to come to deal with this calamity

so true. I expect this to add a few percentages to the cost of renting in those areas affected. They never learn When simple moves as allowing unpaying tenants to be evicted quickly would do mkre good for the cost of renting. as is the risks are huge for landlords with overholding.

L1011 · 25-10-2018 8:59am

Realistically all that is happening is enforcement of pre-existing, long standing planning regulations.

Wanderer78 · 25-10-2018 9:01am

handlemaster wrote:

so true. I expect this to add a few percentages to the cost of renting in those areas affected. They never learn When simple moves as allowing unpaying tenants to be evicted quickly would do mkre good for the cost of renting. as is the risks are huge for landlords with overholding.

The policies that have implemented thus far are endangering both tenants and landlords, this situation will more than likely continue to worsen for both, we need policies and systems that protect both parties, the opposite is occurring, there's no simple fixes here

seamus · 25-10-2018 9:03am

Borderfox wrote: »

Airbnb was originally used as a rent your spare room but now its used for entire properties, does this not fall foul of planning laws?

Yes.

In effect this is just a signal that some quango will be tasked with chasing up the existing planning laws, to try and scare landlords out of the market.

I'm not sure why the wait. Why not just provide direction/support for county councils to crack down on it now?

It's long overdue, landlords have been taking the piss for a couple of years now.

EKRIUQ · 25-10-2018 9:06am

The is a Europe wide problem where there is any form of tourism market, there is not much incentive for landlords any more unless they want just the capital appreciation.

handlemaster · 25-10-2018 9:07am

seamus wrote: »

Yes.

In effect this is just a signal that some quango will be tasked with chasing up the existing planning laws, to try and scare landlords out of the market.

I'm not sure why the wait. Why not just provide direction/support for county councils to crack down on it now?

It's long overdue, landlords have been taking the piss for a couple of years now.

Taking the piss ? How ? Is it not the government changing like the wind in a sector they have no interest in supply housing into that is the problem.

seamus · 25-10-2018 9:24am

handlemaster wrote: »

Taking the piss ? How ? Is it not the government changing like the wind in a sector they have no interest in supply housing into that is the problem.

Taking the piss by using residential properties for holiday lets.

We have planning laws for exactly this reason - to ensure that the needs of society are met and properly balanced against the rights of property owners.

If you want to rent out a holiday property, you need to ensure that the property you are renting out is classed as a holiday property. If it's not, then you are in breach of planning law.

The government aren't changing anything, simply calling to enforce long-standing rules.

Landlords know damn well that they are not legally permitted to rent out residential properties on AirBnB. But they do it anyway.

These properties need to go back into the market proper; either sold or rented to long-term tenants.

circular flexing · 25-10-2018 9:38am

It should lead to either more rentals or more houses appearing for sale on the market. Either result is good. It may lead to more empty properties though, depending on the situation of the owner.

LuckyLloyd · 25-10-2018 10:03am

Long overdue and completely inevitable.

seamus · 25-10-2018 10:19am

jjmcclure wrote: »

Who would be a landlord in Ireland today. This will see more landlords exit the sector.

Good. More properties on the market.

10000maniacs · 25-10-2018 10:20am

The landlords Association are jumping up and down with rage this morning on the radio.
Oh what a beautiful morning.

Assetbacked · 25-10-2018 10:28am

There are properties around Grand Canal Dock to rent on Airbnb and it is clear the tenant can't afford the rent so supplements it with Airbnb. I'm happy these people will ow have to vacate or take a permanent tenant with them.

handlemaster · 25-10-2018 10:40am

seamus wrote: »

Taking the piss by using residential properties for holiday lets.

We have planning laws for exactly this reason - to ensure that the needs of society are met and properly balanced against the rights of property owners.

If you want to rent out a holiday property, you need to ensure that the property you are renting out is classed as a holiday property. If it's not, then you are in breach of planning law.

The government aren't changing anything, simply calling to enforce long-standing rules.

Landlords know damn well that they are not legally permitted to rent out residential properties on AirBnB. But they do it anyway.

These properties need to go back into the market proper; either sold or rented to long-term tenants.

ok. sit back and watch rental prices go alot higher in these areas.Then another thread will be government plan back fires. . shocker. Same issue with bedsits

handlemaster · 25-10-2018 10:41am

10000maniacs wrote: »

The landlords Association are jumping up and down with rage this morning on the radio.
Oh what a beautiful morning.

in the end tenants will pay more

ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 25-10-2018 10:44am

seamus wrote:

Good. More properties on the market.

Unfortunately I don't think they'd be rentals.

TheChizler · 25-10-2018 10:48am

Assetbacked wrote: »

There are properties around Grand Canal Dock to rent on Airbnb and it is clear the tenant can't afford the rent so supplements it with Airbnb. I'm happy these people will ow have to vacate or take a permanent tenant with them.

As it's not the entire property it's not breaking any planning law is it?

10000maniacs · 25-10-2018 10:50am

handlemaster wrote: »

in the end tenants will pay more

But there are restrictions on landlords upping the rent. I think its 4%.

pekitivey · 25-10-2018 10:52am

Hang on, what would this mean for tourists coming to Dublin? Less Air BnB places to rent so forced to stay in hotels? Where there is an ever increasing hospitality tax.

LuckyLloyd · 25-10-2018 10:53am

10000maniacs wrote: »

The landlords Association are jumping up and down with rage this morning on the radio.
Oh what a beautiful morning.

The Landlord association jumping up and down is instructive. It confirms what was long debated or deflected on this forum: the short term letting market has been the path for many supposed residential properties. Effectively meaning large swathes of "landlords" are infact hoteliers without the correct planning permission or other regulatory standards.

LuckyLloyd · 25-10-2018 10:55am

pekitivey wrote: »

Hang on, what would this mean for tourists coming to Dublin? Less Air BnB places to rent so forced to stay in hotels? Where there is an ever increasing hospitality tax.

Tourists are down the consideration list in the midst of a housing crisis and when the core economy is booming. But yes, they should be staying in hotels or guest houses with appropriate PPR.

pwurple · 25-10-2018 10:57am

Accommodation in this country is basically some sort of Fleshy Tetris at this stage.

This is a pain in the hole for us as a family who use air BnB in Dublin, more than anything else.

It's almost impossible to find a hotel setup that can accommodate adults and kids (plus dog sometimes), so renting an apt or house for a few days near family was really bloody handy!

It was part of a wider range of accommodation offerings. This smacks of sticking the homeless in hotel rooms, putting hospital patients into nursing homes, or leaving them sit in A&E for eternity instead of fixing the root cause.

seamus · 25-10-2018 10:58am

Assetbacked wrote: »

There are properties around Grand Canal Dock to rent on Airbnb and it is clear the tenant can't afford the rent so supplements it with Airbnb. I'm happy these people will ow have to vacate or take a permanent tenant with them.

They won't. Renting out a room in your own home is not in breach of planning laws. AirBnB isn't being outlawed; people will still be permitted to rent out rooms in their home, or rent out their homes for short periods. It will also be legal to continue to offer holiday homes on AirBnB.

It just won't be permitted for someone to offer their Non-PPR on AirBnB.

handlemaster wrote: »

ok. sit back and watch rental prices go alot higher in these areas.

How so? These are properties that are not being rented right now. How will their removal from AirBnB increase rental prices?

75dgyj3zctmf18 wrote: »

Unfortunately I don't think they'd be rentals.

It doesn't really matter, it's all the same market. Private residential properties for sale, eases the pressure on the rental market.

The two markets affect eachother, any increase in availability in one, increases availability in the other.

meeeeh · 25-10-2018 11:01am

The largest Air bnb host in Barcelona has potential daily rental income at peak season of over 37,000 Euro. They own over 200 flats. The whole holiday rental market has to be regulated, not just because it affects residential rentals but because it affects how communities function, the quality of life of residents and potentially even what amenities are needed.

pixelburp · 25-10-2018 11:10am

Anecdotally, I searched my own estate on AirBnB the other day, and found 4 properties in our location alone. By the user profile's own admission, he was resident in another area of Dublin and running this as a primary(?) source of income. Our estate is very family oriented, with parents + 2/3 kids squeezed into tiny 1 bed apartments, while these 4 houses lie effectively fallow, save for intermittent visitors paying 300-400 euro a night.

AirBnB is one of those quintessential high-minded tech companies: in principal their idea was cute & personable - it's a genuinely nice idea to holiday somewhere and have a local's hospitality as a base - but the reality is it left a gaping loophole for quick n' easy cash at the expense of a reasonable housing market for locals.

The knock-on effect can be pronounced too: I believe in some areas particularly affected by AirBnB, local businesses - cafés, shops, utilities etc. - have seen their own business shrivel because of course, there are fewer locals living in the apartments / estates anymore that contribute to the community.

L1011 · 25-10-2018 11:12am

pekitivey wrote: »

Hang on, what would this mean for tourists coming to Dublin? Less Air BnB places to rent so forced to stay in hotels? Where there is an ever increasing hospitality tax.

13.5% VAT is one of the lowest total tax takes on hotels in the world. 20%+ sales tax and a city night tax is normal elsewhere.

mille100piedi · 25-10-2018 11:18am

I honestly don't have idea how much money landlords could earn with airbnb. Taxes are more than 50% most of the time and there is more maintenance to do

pekitivey · 25-10-2018 11:22am

L1011 wrote: »

13.5% VAT is one of the lowest total tax takes on hotels in the world. 20%+ sales tax and a city night tax is normal elsewhere.

Ok fair enough, I'm not denying the housing crisis. I'm just thinking of the tourism. I do agree that Air BnB more or less control rental markets in the larger cities they operate in. Its certainty not an easy fix, and I hope this is a step in the right direction.

L1011 · 25-10-2018 11:24am

pekitivey wrote: »

Ok fair enough, I'm not denying the housing crisis. I'm just thinking of the tourism. I do agree that Air BnB more or less control rental markets in the larger cities they operate in. Its certainty not an easy fix, and I hope this is a step in the right direction.

The few thousand hotel rooms coming on stream will assist with tourism. Dublin is an expensive destination anyway (with the possible exception of public transport), broke tourists aren't going to be able to do much or contribute to the economy anyway.

75dgyj3zctmf18 wrote: »

Unfortunately I don't think they'd be rentals.

If they go for sale and are bought by someone renting, that property becomes vacant.

Every single movement in housing units has knock-on effects. Student accomodation is often reviled as 'not providing housing for families' but it reduces the number of family homes being rented as house-shares to 4 or 5 students, returning them for sale or rental.

25-10-2018 11:26am

handlemaster wrote: »

Where to next for the government. LL cant choose tenants, cant raise rent over a certain level, pay high taxes (not treated like other businesses), reduced rights with regard to getting properties back, short term let. Can the barrel be scraped any more for pointless ideas by this government ?

With so many thousands living in hotels etc., it’s long overdue. AirBnB is grand if used to let your spare room or even do a house swop. However the number of whole homes being let is ridiculous in the current climate. Take back these homes for the homeless, I say.

jjmcclure · 25-10-2018 11:29am

<SNIP>
Mod

Do not discuss moderation on thread.

robp · 25-10-2018 11:32am

I don't really understand these proposals. Many students come to Dublin in summer months for 1-3 months as a working holiday. Will it be hard now to let to this category of renter outside the rent a room scheme?

PMBC · 25-10-2018 11:35am

L1011 wrote: »

Realistically all that is happening is enforcement of pre-existing, long standing planning regulations.

Planning regulations that were not being enforced. The question is will the regulations be enforced by the Plannning Authorities to clamp down on what were unauthorised developments i.e. developments that had permission for domestic not business use. I'm sure neighbours are not enthused by the daily comings and goings of tourists and short term business stayers. There are household insurance issues here as well. If you had a fire in your property anfdi t was bring let on air b nb or whatever but was insured as domestic Im sure your insurers would look for 'an out'.
I have sympathy for landlords where tenants are not paying rent where there is a valid/legal lease.

_Brian · 25-10-2018 11:39am

So properties coming back from Airbnb will definitely lead to more availability, but at what cost ??
If the property hasn’t been rented in say 3-4 years isn’t it considered new to the market and so the 4% cap will only apply to subsequent increases not the initial rent set ?? Maybe I missed something there.
But to be on full time rent I’d guess the income will need to be substantially higher than the Airbnb income due to risk, depreciation etc. Thus while the property is back, rents go up.

robp · 25-10-2018 11:50am

akmeeeeh wrote: »

The largest Air bnb host in Barcelona has potential daily rental income at peak season of over 37,000 Euro. They own over 200 flats. The whole holiday rental market has to be regulated, not just because it affects residential rentals but because it affects how communities function, the quality of life of residents and potentially even what amenities are needed.

Sorry it doesn't. Regulation adds to costs and someone real pays a higher price for regulation. It is quite likely all parties pay a higher price down the line landlord, renter and tourist. BTW why is having a daily income of 37,00 relevant?

Amirani · 25-10-2018 11:55am

robp wrote: »

I don't really understand these proposals. Many students come to Dublin in summer months for 1-3 months as a working holiday. Will it be hard now to let to this category of renter outside the rent a room scheme?

Depends on how short term lets are defined really. If you have a place and rent it out for 9 months a year to Dublin college students and then 3 months to foreign students on a working holiday then I can't see this being a problem under proposed legislation.

Doff · 25-10-2018 12:05pm

Is it going to be totally banned in high demand areas? I stayed in a lovely airbnb over the summer when attending Marley Park, it was a conversion out the back of the owners home. I totally understand LL using apartments etc as an airbnb is a massive issue but can't help feeling sorry for the people who are doing it as it was intended that will lose out because of this.

windmilllane · 25-10-2018 12:10pm

Is there anywhere I can find a list of places the restrictions apply to? I asking about Westport where my parents own an apartment

seamus · 25-10-2018 12:11pm

mille100piedi wrote: »

I honestly don't have idea how much money landlords could earn with airbnb. Taxes are more than 50% most of the time and there is more maintenance to do

Less maintenance to do in reality. The properties are less used than a long-term rental because by their nature it's for people who just need a base for a few days.
So you're not going to get someone who fills the fridge, sticks on the washing machine twice a day, uses the cooker for almost every meal, and spends their evenings with the fire lit, feet up on the couch watching the telly.

Tax is about the same as for rental income; less deductions you can make, but you can charge twice the price. Plus you can evict anyone with no notice.

It's undoubtedly a very attractive and effective way of making money. This is why it needs to constrained to prevent housing stock being removed from general use into holiday lettings.

Doff wrote: »

Is it going to be totally banned in high demand areas? I stayed in a lovely airbnb over the summer when attending Marley Park, it was a conversion out the back of the owners home. I totally understand LL using apartments etc as an airbnb is a massive issue but can't help feeling sorry for the people who are doing it as it was intended that will lose out because of this.

People using AirBnB as it was intended will be functionally unaffected by this.

pixelburp · 25-10-2018 12:18pm

Doff wrote: »

Is it going to be totally banned in high demand areas? I stayed in a lovely airbnb over the summer when attending Marley Park, it was a conversion out the back of the owners home. I totally understand LL using apartments etc as an airbnb is a massive issue but can't help feeling sorry for the people who are doing it as it was intended that will lose out because of this.

If anything, this legislation might help AirBnB get back to its precise, original purpose: to let folks share their spare rooms for outgoing travellers. They won't be affected by these new laws at all, and the service was never meant to be a loophole for enterprising owners to make a fast buck & effectively avoid regulation / taxation. The braying from those losing out seems like sour grapes having been found out.

25-10-2018 12:18pm

windmilllane wrote: »

Is there anywhere I can find a list of places the restrictions apply to? I asking about Westport where my parents own an apartment

Theres a lot about it here. https://www.thejournal.ie/explainer-new-airbnb-laws-4304640-Oct2018/

handlemaster · 25-10-2018 12:20pm

10000maniacs wrote: »

handlemaster wrote: »

in the end tenants will pay more

But there are restrictions on landlords upping the rent. I think its 4%.

Just sit back and watch

handlemaster · 25-10-2018 12:21pm

windmilllane wrote: »

Is there anywhere I can find a list of places the restrictions apply to? I asking about Westport where my parents own an apartment

Westport. .. LOL

JPFabo · 25-10-2018 12:23pm

Disgraceful....Private sector yet again paying for a public sector mess. Another sticky plaster by the minister who is trying to deflect from his and his governments inactions by making it look like they are doing something. Banning AirBNB Will not make a blind bit of difference, just as the rent pressure zones haven't either. People will continue to advertise their properties on the hundreds of other websites around the world that offer the same service, who is going to police all of these? Nobody! Or more landlords will just sell up and leave the market, for some its a business, if your business isn't making a profit you close it down.

Nermal · 25-10-2018 12:24pm

L1011 wrote: »

The few thousand hotel rooms coming on stream will assist with tourism. Dublin is an expensive destination anyway (with the possible exception of public transport), broke tourists aren't going to be able to do much or contribute to the economy anyway.

I am far from broke, but I don't like staying in hotels, I prefer staying in apartments. I don't make noise or discommode the residents wherever I stay. It's just more government interference in private property rights.

Eric Cartman · 25-10-2018 12:24pm

handlemaster wrote: »

Just sit back and watch

+1 , if these properties were making 4-5k a month on airbnb and havent been long term rented in 2-3 years, you'd bet theres a case to put them back on the market for 3500 a month etc..

gozunda · 25-10-2018 12:34pm

circular flexing wrote: »

It should lead to either more rentals or more houses appearing for sale on the market. Either result is good. It may lead to more empty properties though, depending on the situation of the owner.

I really doubt it tbh. The status quo at present favours the tennant over and above anything else. Anyone with a property to rent faces high taxation, a very real risk of the their property being trashed, rent payments being withheld or no rent being paid at all and being totally without any legal mechanism to fix any of this or even get rid of bad tennants.

Why in God's name would anyone choose to rent out anything under those conditions?

Airbnb provided those renting with a fairly straighforward means of earning a guanteed income and a means to manage short term tennancies.

In the UK ballifs are involved to help property owners where tennants break their rental agreements etc. In Ireland we have bodies advocating that even bad tennants should refuse to leave properties despite proper notice and even legal action taken.

The whole setup is crazy imo.

Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

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