Termination notice issued.

steve66 · 18-07-2020 6:42am #1

Hi. I have been an occupant of my current residence for at least 10 years. My landlord is not the person I initially rented from. I have been renting from him since nov of last year. I also have a flatmate who moved into the residence around the same time ie nov of last year.. I got him into the apartment not the landlord . We are both paying through hap, as well as paying 55 euros extra a month each to the landlord.
Some hours ago, a termination notice for both of us was put through my letterbox giving us 28 days to vacate the premises. Although the actual date for termination is 30th of august.
I cannot find the tenancy agreement so cannot say if it is a fixed lease or not. But the reason for the termination notice is because the landlord wishes to sell the residence within 9 months of the termination date which is the 30th of august. According to what i read, that is not one of the reasons allowed for termination of a fixed term lease.
Quote from RTB website. "The amount of notice required to end a tenancy depends on how long the tenant has lived in the property." It does not say how long the tenant has been renting from their current landlord. Further on it says, "Duration of tenancy (Not less than 8 years is 224 days."
"Not less than 6 months 90 days."
According to a person I spoke to from focus ireland, the amount of notice required is in deed determined by the time a tenant first became resident in an accommodation, and not when they started renting from their current landlord, if said landlord, is different from initial landlord.
Can you confirm or deny this with absolute certainty?
But even if a notice period reverts back to when a new landlord took over, surely this still gives my flatmate and myself 90 days. The tenancy under this landlord began in November of last year. (Although I will have to confirm that with HAP.) Well even if was december, it is past the 6 months period, The termination notice was issued on the 17th of july.
I also see that no termination notice can be put out during the emergency period. But that ends in a few days. I assume the landlord will have to serve notice again. On another point. my flatmate has been in hospital for the last 18 days. It is not known how long he will be there for. Does he have any rights due to his situation?

Dav010 · 18-07-2020 7:08am

Just a few points.

The length of the notice period is dependent on the length of time you have been there, not how long the LL owns the property, so in your case the correct notice period is 224 days.

You have a Part 4 tenancy, not a fixed term one. A fixed term tenancy is one that has a lease agreement ending on a certain date. LLs don’t bother much with these anymore because after 6 months the tenant gets Part 4 rights which are statutory.

Selling a property is still one of the reasons which a LL can end a Part 4 tenancy, but your notice must come with a signed declaration.

The fact that your friend is in hospital does not impart additional rights or protections above those in the RTA.

The ban on evictions is a little up in the air at the moment. The current ban is due to end next week and the minister has announced his intention to extend it. But apparently the AG has advised him that as Covid restrictions on movements have been eased, extension of the ban may not be constitutional and would not stand up to a High Court challenge. So we have to wait and see if it can/will be extended.

The notice you received is invalid, the LL jumped the gun by serving it before the ban ended and has given you the wrong notice period. But, he will get it right eventually and if he is selling, your tenancy might indeed be coming to an end. Might be as well to keep a lookout for a new property, things have improved on that front in that there seems to be an increase in supply.

steve66 · 18-07-2020 9:26am

Thank you. That is indeed some relief to me. I need time to get money for a deposit. I did get money from Supplementary welfare towards a deposit. But I believe it was for the previous residence I occupied. So lets say that deposit is 400.
If I apply again for help with a deposit, and I am successful, I assume any cash forthcoming would be the balance between what I previously received, and the price of the deposit.
I assume also that since my flatmate is here since november, he is entitled to 90 days notice.

Dav010 · 18-07-2020 9:32am

You will have to discuss that with Welfare.

You will also probably need at least the first months rent as well, possibly more. All LLs will insist on rent being paid a month in advance, HAP tends to be paid in arrears, so you will be responsible for payment of rent until HAP payments are received by LL.

steve66 · 18-07-2020 9:54am

Thank you.

Pkiernan · 19-07-2020 12:04pm

You should inform the RTB that you gave received this notice, even though it is invalid.

This is to help protect you down tge line.

TSQ · 19-07-2020 1:30pm

steve66 wrote: »

Thank you. That is indeed some relief to me. I need time to get money for a deposit. I did get money from Supplementary welfare towards a deposit. But I believe it was for the previous residence I occupied. So lets say that deposit is 400.
If I apply again for help with a deposit, and I am successful, I assume any cash forthcoming would be the balance between what I previously received, and the price of the deposit.
I assume also that since my flatmate is here since november, he is entitled to 90 days notice.

You most likely paid a deposit when you rented your current house, as usually a landlord requires 1 month deposit and 1 month rent in advance. Try to find proof of deposit paid, as you will be due a refund of this amount on vacating the house, assuming no damage (that isnt normal wear and tear) has occurred.

jimmycrackcorm · 19-07-2020 2:08pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

You should inform the RTB that you gave received this notice, even though it is invalid.

This is to help protect you down tge line.

Why waste the time of the RTB. What action are they supposed to take?

0xzmro3n4y7lb5 · 19-07-2020 2:15pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why waste the time of the RTB. What action are they supposed to take?

Mediate the problem created by the Landlord breaching landlord obligations which includes the tenancies act and the emergency measures extended till August.

Ignorance of the law isn’t a valid defence.

The tenant isn’t qualified to deal with the complexities of the legislation. That’s what the RTB is ford

Pkiernan · 19-07-2020 2:52pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why waste the time of the RTB. What action are they supposed to take?

What's your problem?

The tenant has been illegally served an invalid notice of termination by a landlord who is at best ignorant of current rental legislation.

Its very likely that this same landlord will be banging on the door in 28 days demanding a vacated property.

Pkiernan · 19-07-2020 2:53pm

And I'm a landlord, not some PBP lefty who thinks all landlirds are evil.

Dav010 · 19-07-2020 3:12pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

What's your problem?

The tenant has been illegally served an invalid notice of termination by a landlord who is at best ignorant of current rental legislation.

Its very likely that this same landlord will be banging on the door in 28 days demanding a vacated property.

He hasn’t been illegally served with an invalid notice, he has been served an invalid notice. It only becomes illegal if the LL acts on an invalid notice.

Claw Hammer · 19-07-2020 3:49pm

It might well be seen that is right to peaceful possession was breached by the service of such notice. Even if the ban on serving notices was not in force, it is an invalid notice in any event on two grounds, at least.

Pkiernan · 19-07-2020 5:25pm

Dav010 wrote: »

He hasn’t been illegally served with an invalid notice, he has been served an invalid notice. It only becomes illegal if the LL acts on an invalid notice.

You're wrong again.

You should refrain from posting here, as you clearly don't understand the legislation.

From the legislation:

A notice of termination cannot be served during the COVID-19 emergency period. All notices of termination which were served before the emergency period and fall within this period, are paused; a tenant cannot be told to leave their rented accommodation during this time.

Does any part of that need further explanation?

redarmyblues · 21-07-2020 7:13pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

You're wrong again.

You should refrain from posting here, as you clearly don't understand the legislation.

From the legislation:

A notice of termination cannot be served during the COVID-19 emergency period. All notices of termination which were served before the emergen
cy period and fall within this period, are paused; a tenant cannot be told to leave their rented accommodation during this time.?

Which means that the piece of paper the landlord out through the door is not a Notice to Quit. OP don't be bothering the RTB with notifying the RTB of this, you have the guts of a year to

redarmyblues · 21-07-2020 7:13pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

You're wrong again.

You should refrain from posting here, as you clearly don't understand the legislation.

From the legislation:

A notice of termination cannot be served during the COVID-19 emergency period. All notices of termination which were served before the emergen
cy period and fall within this period, are paused; a tenant cannot be told to leave their rented accommodation during this time.?

Which means that the piece of paper the landlord put through the door is not a Notice to Quit. OP don't be bothering the RTB with notifying the RTB of this, you have the guts of a year to get a new place, concentrate on that.

recyclebin · 21-07-2020 8:14pm

Talk to your landlord. Inform him of the legislation and notice periods. They may be understanding and acknowledge their mistake.

My landlord is selling the property and gave us notice to vacate before Covid. When the emergency legislation was brought in, they were very understanding and accepted that we would not have to vacate by the date on the notice letter as the notice period was now frozen. It is hard on the landlord and the new buyer as they are now stuck in limbo.

Dav010 · 21-07-2020 8:20pm

recyclebin wrote: »

Talk to your landlord. Inform him of the legislation and notice periods. They may be understanding and acknowledge their mistake.

My landlord is selling the property and gave us notice to vacate before Covid. When the emergency legislation was brought in, they were very understanding and accepted that we would not have to vacate by the date on the notice letter as the notice period was now frozen. It is hard on the landlord and the new buyer as they are now stuck in limbo.

As there seems to be plenty of supply, falling rents and you know you will be evicted when the ban is lifted, are you looking for a new place at the moment?

I appreciate you don’t have to of course, but you know the landlord wants to sell and it’s seems from your post there is a buyer waiting.

Curious1002 · 23-07-2020 12:13am

I strongly advice you to listen to Pkiernan and Carerhomeless and inform the RTB about the invalid Notice of Termination. But not only "inform" them but actually open a dispute so there is a paper record of this landlord, of his invalid and illegal Notice and also as a form of a security (like mentioned by others above) if he tries other tricks to remove you from the dwelling using other tactics. It doesnt matter if your landlord withdraws his invalid notice immediately after being informed by the RTB that there is a dispute in place and asks you to close the dispute - you can do it then but at least there is a clear evidence of his illegal action. And yes, handing you an invalid Notice of termination during a clear ban on evictions extended until August 2020 is illegal.

After you open a dispute, he will not going to go through an obvious lost case and will withdraw his notice only to give you a new one, a correct one. If you think he does not have genuine reasons and this is only an excuse (you better start gathering evidence if you can) then you will open a new dispute for the second corrected notice and you will be able to elevate your case by claiming penalisation (see attached document). Only tenants who previously opened RTB dispute on their LL (not just informed the RTB) can avail of this - penalties can reach up to 20K for the landlord. You can not use this act if you never opened a case against him before or never called cops on him.

I remember for my case Threshold advised me not to open the RTB dispute for the first invalid notice but just go to my landlord and point out on errors he made on his invalid notice, which I did. So stupid! Only 2 days later he corrected the notice and handed me a brand new one. At my hearing i told Adjudicator about the first invalid notice and showed a copy of the document but she said that since I never opened a dispute with the RTB I can not claim "penalisation". I won my case anyway for other reasons but my LL would have been penalised big time if I opened the first dispute.

So even if it's a pain to go through the online form and pay the E15 fee, go for it - you really have nothing to lose and everything to win. Also, if he doesnt withdraw his notice and goes ahead with his case, he will lose big time and will get a penalty for ignoring the ban. He will also be listed on the RTB website and everyone else will be able to see and use his previous cases to expose his repeated illegal actions if he tries to break the law again.

redarmyblues · 23-07-2020 12:33am

A well argued and precise legal opinion there, Curious. The OP is well advised.

redarmyblues · 23-07-2020 7:25am

Thanks for the upvote Curious, but you need to adjust your irony detector. While it is obvious you are very passionate about the issue and possibly rightly so for it seems you have been unfairly treated by an unscrupulous LL in the past, unfortunately the passion is at the expense of coherence. There are two things to consider here .

1. The OP's LL can claim he was unaware that Notices to Quit issued during the emergency are invalid.
2. The OP's LL can claim he believes the ban on evictions where the house is being sold is unconstitutional.

Emergency regardless, the notice is invalid because the incorrect notice period, given the length of the tenancy is specified. The advice here is let the hare sit, if the LL is unaware of the notices invalidity it buys the OP time. He doesn't need to go to the RTB and open a case to prove anything, the physical document is proof in itself. He does not want to antagonise the LL, since the LL being very eager to close a sale might be prepared, nay compelled to square the OP with a very decent drink to expedite vacant possession.

Curious1002 · 23-07-2020 9:37am

redarmyblues wrote: »

Thanks for the upvote Curious, but you need to adjust your irony detector. While it is obvious you are very passionate about the issue and possibly rightly so for it seems you have been unfairly treated by an unscrupulous LL in the past, unfortunately the passion is at the expense of coherence. There are two things to consider here .

1. The OP's LL can claim he was unaware that Notices to Quit issued during the emergency are invalid.
2. The OP's LL can claim he believes the ban on evictions where the house is being sold is unconstitutional.

Emergency regardless, the notice is invalid because the incorrect notice period, given the length of the tenancy is specified. The advice here is let the hare sit, if the LL is unaware of the notices invalidity it buys the OP time. He doesn't need to go to the RTB and open a case to prove anything, the physical document is proof in itself. He does not want to antagonise the LL, since the LL being very eager to close a sale might be prepared, nay compelled to square the OP with a very decent drink to expedite vacant possession.

Yes, i didnt recognise the sarcasm. My bad.

I hope the OP will open a dispute with the RTB, like I advised.
Good luck to the OP!

redarmyblues · 23-07-2020 10:28am

OSI wrote: »

Ignorance of the law is not, and never has been, a valid defence.

That is not for him to decide. He is welcome to open court proceedings to challenge the constitutionality of the law, but until he does such and wins he has no right to act in contradiction of it.

Yawn, but still. Issuing an invalid notice to quit is not a criminal offencel nor will the landlord be challenging the validity of the notice under the constitutional rights to property since you would know if you bothered to read mine or the OPs posts that the notice to quit is invalid regardless because it gave a 28 day notice period when the tenant is there 10 years and the notice period for this is of the top of my head in the region of 230 days. My point was that serving a single invalid NTQ would be an easily defended charge is it was brought to the attention of the RTB.

You need to read posts properly and understand before you react to them.

perfectkama · 23-07-2020 10:40am

The op may seem like a victim but there are plenty of other places this year and less next owner want to so f*** off
The bully here is the state preventing an owner from selling what is right fully his he worked paid taxes, and buyer who cant buy because the renter now feel more entitled sorry its going to generate more exits from a market that should be growing

C3PO · 23-07-2020 1:52pm

perfectkama wrote: »

The op may seem like a victim but there are plenty of other places this year and less next owner want to so f*** off
The bully here is the state preventing an owner from selling what is right fully his he worked paid taxes, and buyer who cant buy because the renter now feel more entitled sorry its going to generate more exits from a market that should be growing

I'm not a fan of laws that over-protect non-paying or bad tenants but, given that the OP has been living in his home for 10 years, giving him reasonable time (6-8 month) to find alternative accommodation seems fair to me!

Pkiernan · 23-07-2020 7:49pm

redarmyblues wrote: »

Yawn, but still. Issuing an invalid notice to quit is not a criminal offencel nor will the landlord be challenging the validity of the notice under the constitutional rights to property since you would know if you bothered to read mine or the OPs posts that the notice to quit is invalid regardless because it gave a 28 day notice period when the tenant is there 10 years and the notice period for this is of the top of my head in the region of 230 days. My point was that serving a single invalid NTQ would be an easily defended charge is it was brought to the attention of the RTB.

You need to read posts properly and understand before you react to them.

You need to understand the difference between illegal and criminal.

This thread has been ruined by the sheer lack of knowledge of the pertinent facts.

Dav010 · 23-07-2020 8:23pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

You need to understand the difference between illegal and criminal.

This thread has been ruined by the sheer lack of knowledge of the pertinent facts.

Perhaps what is most important is that giving notice, whether it would be invalid under normal circumstances, is not an offence, it is just an invalid notice. The RTB will not do anything about it bar telling the op to ignore it. An offence occurs only when a LL acts on foot of an invalid notice or one given during the term of the Covid legislation. I’m going to hold my hand up and say my earlier post was wrong, the notice could not legally be acted on, but no offence has occurred, yet. So I still don’t see the point of opening a dispute with the RTB, unless the LL tries to evict the op, no offence has occurred.

redarmyblues · 26-07-2020 12:25pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Perhaps what is most important is that giving notice, whether it would be invalid under normal circumstances, is not an offence, it is just an invalid notice. The RTB will not do anything about it bar telling the op to ignore it. An offence occurs only when a LL acts on foot of an invalid notice or one given during the term of the Covid legislation. I’m going to hold my hand up and say my earlier post was wrong, the notice could not legally be acted on, but no offence has occurred, yet. So I still don’t see the point of opening a dispute with the RTB, unless the LL tries to evict the op, no offence has occurred.

Indeed. An invalid NTQ it's normally a gift to a tenant in bother, if the LL was anyways cute he would have issued a NTQ with the correct notice period hedging on the possibility of the eviction ban on sales being found unconstitutional and we would be dealing with a Schrödinger's cat of a NTQ, but some people are only capable of singing the Christy Moore song.

Graham · 26-07-2020 5:31pm

Mod Note

redarmyblue, take the hypothetical discussion of constitutionality elsewhere please. There is no suggestion the OPs landlord is about to mount a legal challenge and it's taking this thread off-topic.

Do not reply to this post.

steve66 · 05-11-2020 10:30pm

Hi folks. Thanks to everybody, who took the time to write.
The news is, that today, I paid a deposit on a new place,

Pkiernan · 06-11-2020 5:45am

steve66 wrote: »

Hi folks. Thanks to everybody, who took the time to write.
The news is, that today, I paid a deposit on a new place,

You should know that you are etitled to submit to the RTB that you have been illegally evicted.

Termination notice issued.

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