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Irish Rail Fixed Penalty Notice, Rail Safety Act 2005

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    #92
    Esel
    Registered Users Posts: 22,002 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    OP, you yourself pay for the Taxsaver ticket - not your employer!

    From https://www.taxsaver.ie/Commuters/ (bolding mine)

    "Introduced by the Government in 1999, Taxsaver incentivises people to use public transport to and from work. It’s so simple! Your employer registers for Taxsaver on taxsaver.ie and buys tickets for you. The cost is deducted directly from your salary, and you get to save between 29% and 52% on the regular price, depending on ticket type and your tax band."

    Not your ornery onager



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    #93
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Esel wrote: »
    OP, you yourself pay for the Taxsaver ticket - not your employer!

    From https://www.taxsaver.ie/Commuters/ (bolding mine)

    "Introduced by the Government in 1999, Taxsaver incentivises people to use public transport to and from work. It’s so simple! Your employer registers for Taxsaver on taxsaver.ie and buys tickets for you. The cost is deducted directly from your salary, and you get to save between 29% and 52% on the regular price, depending on ticket type and your tax band."

    If it's provided as Benefit in Kind only the employer pays.


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    #94
    Indricotherium
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,577 ✭✭✭Indricotherium


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    In a DC case they would be very small esp given the amount claimed.

    This is somewhat cavalier given that the op can't afford the initial fine.


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    #95
    Esel
    Registered Users Posts: 22,002 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    GM228 wrote: »
    If it's provided as Benefit in Kind only the employer pays.

    Oops! :o

    Not your ornery onager



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    #96
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #97
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    Hi op,

    Just want to give you my own experience with Irish rail and matters of tagging on and their machine incorrectly reading my card.


    http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057505194/1/#post97302078

    http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057612827/1/#post100115748

    Turns out the day of court their barrister called me out and said they were withdrawing their application as I had been right all along.

    Seems to me they'll try and get you to pay by any means like using their by laws etc before court but as soon as it comes to letting a judge with common sense decide they pull out.

    Id say fight them all they way going by your experonce of know info to advise you of your jounry plus no signs of you doing anything wrong when you tag on and off and the confusion and inconsistencies in how of aa fine you actually but get legal advice of you're worried

    Good luck


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    #98
    hullaballoo
    Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,710 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    GM228 wrote: »
    To answer hullaballoo's question - yes the bye laws allow CIE to charge the full cost of the portion of the journey which had no ticket.

    That does not mean they can get both the fare paid plus the entirety of the fare that ought to have been paid. That's what they appear to be looking for here.

    OP, just to confirm, you are going to a solicitor in relation to this yes?


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    #99
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,329 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Laura4193 wrote:
    Yes I'm getting legal advice Thursday evening but I'm hoping it doesn't go as far as court.

    It's say let them chase the funds and go to court if necessary. They may not follow up given you've already paid the give. It's not like you haven't paid anything, already having a monthly ticket. I couldn't see you getting anything worse from a judge.
    hullaballoo wrote:
    That does not mean they can get both the fare paid plus the entirety of the fare that ought to have been paid. That's what they appear to be looking for here.

    If anything it should only be the difference.


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    #100
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,184 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    hullaballoo wrote: »
    Does anyone know what powers IR have in relation to the recovery of unpaid fares? They are governed by their own set of laws but in the ordinary course, you'd think that they are only entitled to the difference between the fare paid and what ought to have been paid. That's how it would work with any private company seeking to recover this kind of debt. Unless they are specifically entitled to seek the full value of the fare that ought to have been paid without any kind of set-off in relation to the sums actually paid in respect of the trips, I find it hard to see how they could stand over the position that they are entitled to it?

    Generally train companies, in my experience, follow a rule that you must at all times be in possession of an appropriate ticket for the entire journey you are taking. Failing that you are liable for a fine plus a standard fare (note not promotional or discounted or taking account of any part fare you may have) for the entire journey. There is arguably a penal element in this approach but in circumstances where, up until relatively recently in railway life, there were few means of capturing fare evaders, a sledgehammer was needed to encourage compliance.

    What surprises me in all of this is, frankly, the thought process which could lead one to assume, having ordered a ticket from one station, that it was possible to simply embark on the journey from an earlier waypoint without at any stage considering that there might be a need to alter the ticket.

    If through personal circumstances one omitted to rectify matters, I'd personally feel unable to assert unfair treatment.


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    #101
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,184 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    To take the other side, Fred, would a DJ not be empowered to disregard a statement to the effect that "I was unaware that a ticket for a journey from Maynooth could not simply be equally valid from an earlier station" not be regarded as a pleading of mental incapacity.

    Personally, I find it difficult to believe that an adult bestowed with a modicum of common sense and intelligence (i.e. Significantly less than prevailing in the public at large) would be unaware that they could not simply join the train at an earlier point without obtaining an additional ticket or permit to travel. I guess I am stating that I do not believe such a person could form an honest belief that they were not riding for free meaning that there was an intent to evade and 86 criminal acts. Perhaps I expect too much.


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    #102
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #103
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    Ireland hasn't a clue about public transport. The public servant idiots involved just re-invent the wheel with dumb expensive ideas.

    In Switzerland, if you want to go from a stop in the equivalent of D2 to D4, you need a two zone ticket because you are using D2 and D4 resources. It doesn't matter if you are using a bus, tram, train, boat whatever, or which stops you use to get on and off. You can combine modes - using a train from x to y and a tram from y to z.

    If you want to go from D2 to D6, you need a three zone ticket because you are using zones D2 and D4 and D6.

    LEAP Rfid cards have cost dozens of millions, as have the ticket barriers in mainline stations in Ireland. In Switzerland you just get a card and it says what zones, the period covered and the person's ID. A card could cover a few postal district equivalents of a city, the entire city, or the entire country or a canton. The only ticket checking in Switzerland - and virtually every other European country, takes place at random on the train. If your ticket is invalid, or you have none, it is CHF 100 charge. And you can buy the ticket on a mobile phone app or have it incorporated in a Visa or MasterCard. Switzerland has the most developed pubic transport system in the world. Instead of copying some good ideas from it, the Irish government and its servants prefer to create chaos and waste public money.

    http://www.micro.sbb.ch/mobile/en/home.html?WT.ac=sbb-mobile-weitere-en.html

    Video: CH-Deutsche https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDU7KTPty_w

    Video 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f5RgaXc7pQ

    Video 3 (shows drag and drop ticket buying)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S58brAYTNU

    Who is the 'little old lady' doing her knitting? She is a senior vice president of SBB - Swiss Rail mobile app operations
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1HVjZGo1-M

    These ads are run on Swiss TV and internet to promote the use of the app and public transport in general. Everything is liked up. Unlike the case in Ireland.


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    #104
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,184 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I didn't suggest that they are pursuing although I guess their internal procedures preclude penalty notices without an actual interception on each occasion; by the same token, I think the OP would be getting off quite lightly. I certainly don't think IE are even trying to get it their own way. It is entirely conceivable for an infrequent user to make an error. To suggest that over a period of 4 months or more it did not occur to verify that the correct ticket was held is questionable in the extreme.


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    #105
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    Marcusm wrote: »
    To suggest that over a period of 4 months or more it did not occur to verify that the correct ticket was held is questionable in the extreme.

    Op states they were not notified of any issues of validation when traveling through barriers and turnstiles etc this combined with the infrequent get on and get offs at the same station could have attributed to ops ignorance on the matter


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    #106
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,150 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    lifeandtimes wrote: »
    Hi op,

    Just want to give you my own experience with rail and matters of tagging on and their machine incorrectly reading my card.


    http://touch./thread/2057505194/1/#post97302078

    http://touch./thread/2057612827/1/#post100115748

    Turns out the day of court their barrister called me out and said they were withdrawing their application as I had been right all along.

    Seems to me they'll try and get you to pay by any means like using their by laws etc before court but as soon as it comes to letting a judge with common sense decide they pull out.

    Id say fight them all they way going by your experonce of know info to advise you of your jounry plus no signs of you doing anything wrong when you tag on and off and the confusion and inconsistencies in how of aa fine you actually but get legal advice of you're worried

    Good luck

    Did you read the bit where they were travelling from a station that their ticket did not cover?


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    #107
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,150 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    lifeandtimes wrote: »
    Op states they were not notified of any issues of validation when traveling through barriers and turnstiles etc this combined with the infrequent get on and get offs at the same station could have attributed to ops ignorance on the matter

    They didnt validate the ticket before boarding the train.


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    #108
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Did you read the bit where they were travelling from a station that their ticket did not cover?

    Apologies there's a spelling error in my post.

    When I said fight them I meant in relation to the amount op owes for their fine, I'm not disputing op owes a fine but the amount that is owed, however once in front a judge if op states there case there's always a chance a judge could side with them; op has nothing to lose really and has chance of getting the correct fine totalled up or the possibility of a judge letting them off lightly


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    #109
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    They didnt validate the ticket before boarding the train.

    Sorry I may misread the story but op didn't validate their ticket, at all...for the last few months ?


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    #110
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,184 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    lifeandtimes wrote: »
    Op states they were not notified of any issues of validation when traveling through barriers and turnstiles etc this combined with the infrequent get on and get offs at the same station could have attributed to ops ignorance on the matter

    The absence of Leap functionality at Kilcock station would, I imagine, have provided all but the most carefree (or alternatively mendacious) a prompt to consider their position vis a vis use of the Leap card!


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    #111
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,150 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    lifeandtimes wrote: »
    Sorry I may misread the story but op didn't validate their ticket, at all...for the last few months ?

    Only at the destination. if at all.


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    #112
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #113
    Laura4193
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Laura4193


    Marcusm wrote: »
    What surprises me in all of this is, frankly, the thought process which could lead one to assume, having ordered a ticket from one station, that it was possible to simply embark on the journey from an earlier waypoint without at any stage considering that there might be a need to alter the ticket.

    I didn't order a Maynooth ticket specifically, I just told work I'd be getting the train that goes to Maynooth, i.e. that specific train line. I wasn't aware of the ticket being a SHZ ticket, I thought it was a season ticket inclusive of a larger area as it was paid for by work.

    I was never told "this is a Maynooth ticket" or "this only goes as far as Maynooth"


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    #114
    Laura4193
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Laura4193


    Marcusm wrote: »
    Personally, I find it difficult to believe that an adult bestowed with a modicum of common sense and intelligence (i.e. Significantly less than prevailing in the public at large) would be unaware that they could not simply join the train at an earlier point without obtaining an additional ticket or permit to travel. I guess I am stating that I do not believe such a person could form an honest belief that they were not riding for free meaning that there was an intent to evade and 86 criminal acts. Perhaps I expect too much.

    Again, I was not aware of what my ticket was, I genuinely believed it covered a larger area given that work was paying and I had assumed TaxSaver worked differently i.e. Fares taken directly from an account work had set up.

    If I had known Maynooth was the last valid stop I would have stayed getting on and off from Maynooth.


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    #115
    Laura4193
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Laura4193


    hullaballoo wrote: »
    That does not mean they can get both the fare paid plus the entirety of the fare that ought to have been paid. That's what they appear to be looking for here.

    OP, just to confirm, you are going to a solicitor in relation to this yes?

    Yes I've an appointment for free legal aid Thursday evening.


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    #116
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,184 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Laura4193 wrote: »
    I didn't order a Maynooth ticket specifically, I just told work I'd be getting the train that goes to Maynooth, i.e. that specific train line. I wasn't aware of the ticket being a SHZ ticket, I thought it was a season ticket inclusive of a larger area as it was paid for by work.

    I was never told "this is a Maynooth ticket" or "this only goes as far as Maynooth"
    Laura4193 wrote: »
    Again, I was not aware of what my ticket was, I genuinely believed it covered a larger area given that work was paying and I had assumed TaxSaver worked differently i.e. Fares taken directly from an account work had set up.

    If I had known Maynooth was the last valid stop I would have stayed getting on and off from Maynooth.

    I can believe that the person in work who ordered the ticket could form an honest belief that you needed a ticket to Maynooth. It beggars belief to suggest that having specified Maynooth, you formed such a. Elite that you could use it from another station. How far do you think you could have extended your ticket? Sligo? At what position not do you accept that you might have been expected to take personal responsibility? Had you told your office you were travelling from rural Kildare they so of likely have pressed you to specify a station. By your own admission you specified Maynooth. That to me would be the end of the story and I don't see how this is open for discussion still.


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    #117
    Laura4193
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Laura4193


    Marcusm wrote: »
    I can believe that the person in work who ordered the ticket could form an honest belief that you needed a ticket to Maynooth. It beggars belief to suggest that having specified Maynooth, you formed such a. Elite that you could use it from another station. How far do you think you could have extended your ticket? Sligo? At what position not do you accept that you might have been expected to take personal responsibility? Had you told your office you were travelling from rural Kildare they so of likely have pressed you to specify a station. By your own admission you specified Maynooth. That to me would be the end of the story and I don't see how this is open for discussion still.

    Since getting on at Kilcock yes I had told them and nothing was said to me about the ticket.

    No I never said I could get as far as Sligo or cork but with Kilcock being simply one stop out it certainly never dawned on me that that would happen to be the one stop out too far.

    Yes I'm aware the zone has to end somewhere but Kilcock seems like a ridiculous point to stop it due to how close in nature Kilcock and Maynooth are. Sure thats why they're including it in June!

    Fair enough with the likes of stations further out past Enfield, I just don't see Kilcock as that rural to be definite outside a commuter zone.


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    #118
    Cows Go µ
    Registered Users Posts: 902 ✭✭✭Cows Go µ


    Laura4193 wrote: »
    Again, I was not aware of what my ticket was, I genuinely believed it covered a larger area given that work was paying and I had assumed TaxSaver worked differently i.e. Fares taken directly from an account work had set up.

    If I had known Maynooth was the last valid stop I would have stayed getting on and off from Maynooth.

    That's what really doesn't make sense to me. If I told my work I needed a ticket to go from a to b , I would assume it only goes from a to b. If I needed to go to c, I would check if it covers c. I wouldn't blindly assume to goes from a to z because why on earth would my work have bought a ticket that goes anywhere when they knew I only needed it to go from a to b.


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    #119
    Laura4193
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Laura4193


    Cows Go µ wrote: »
    That's what really doesn't make sense to me. If I told my work I needed a ticket to go from a to b , I would assume it only goes from a to b. If I needed to go to c, I would check if it covers c. I wouldn't blindly assume to goes from a to z because why on earth would my work have bought a ticket that goes anywhere when they knew I only needed it to go from a to b.

    I knew it as a ticket that covered multiple areas, not a to b.
    It was bus and rail and my knowledge of them is that they cover the commuter towns to Dublin. Including malahide and south Dublin commuter towns.
    The problem was I considered Kilcock a commuter town and now IR will too but only starting in June.


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    #120
    Indricotherium
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,577 ✭✭✭Indricotherium


    Laura4193 wrote: »
    I knew it as a ticket that covered multiple areas, not a to b.
    It was bus and rail and my knowledge of them is that they cover the commuter towns to Dublin. Including malahide and south Dublin commuter towns.
    The problem was I considered Kilcock a commuter town and now IR will too but only starting in June.

    Presumably you were also familiar with the tag on/off furniture in stations that these tickets are valid to embark in?


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    #121
    Laura4193
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Laura4193


    Indricotherium wrote: »
    Presumably you were also familiar with the tag on/off furniture in stations that these tickets are valid to embark in?

    Yes I was and I tagged on and off where possible, except for Kilcock as they do not have the facilities. They don't even have two train tracks.

    When I travelled between Maynooth and Tara some mornings or evenings there'd be open gates and if I was in a hurry I'd rush through in the mindset that my ticket is prepaid, it's not like I was chancing my arm the fare between those two points were paid.


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