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Husky too thin?

  • 18-10-2011 1:19am
    #1
    blaaah
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭


    Hi, I have a Siberian husky, he is year and half old. He is a Freerunner dog.

    I have been waiting for him to fill out but it seems as if it's not happening. You can see maybe two or 3 ribs showing slightly. The pics of husky's Ive seen at this age are slightly wider and have filled out.

    So I am a little worried i'm missing something, maybe more protein in his diet? or something along the lines of this?

    Any help would be great, thanks.

    Here is an image of him but it doesn't really show how thin he is.

    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/405/pooch005.jpgpooch005.jpg


«1

Comments

  • #2
    andreac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,000 ✭✭✭andreac


    Its very hard to tell with that picture though...

    What are you feeding him and are you feeding him the recommended amount? If you think hes thin would you not increase his food or maybe get a different food that might suit him better?


  • #3
    portgirl123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 657 ✭✭✭portgirl123


    beautiful dog. is his worming up to date. what exercise is he getting a day. maybe he is so active that he needs more calories a day.


  • #4
    TooManyDogs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭TooManyDogs


    blaaah wrote: »
    He is a Freerunner dog.

    What's a freerunner dog? If he's doing heavy exercise then adjusting his diet could be the answer.

    What's the make up of his food? and how much exercise is he getting a day?


  • #5
    Chris_Heilong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,974 ✭✭✭Chris_Heilong


    TooManyDogs wrote: »
    What's a freerunner dog? If he's doing heavy exercise then adjusting his diet could be the answer.

    What's the make up of his food? and how much exercise is he getting a day?

    true, dogs that are worked need more food than the average dog, you could try a raw egg mixed with his food once or twice a week also. He is still young at 1 year and I am sure you will notice a difference when his winter coat comes in.


  • #6
    blaaah
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭blaaah


    andreac wrote: »
    Its very hard to tell with that picture though...

    What are you feeding him and are you feeding him the recommended amount? If you think hes thin would you not increase his food or maybe get a different food that might suit him better?

    Yes, it was the only picture I had available. I should have a better pic up by end of the day. I am feeding him the recommend amount and have tried increasing his food but he only eats what he wants from it. I have thought well then maybe problem is he doesn't like the food as much but have changed to royal cannon etc but I think he prefers to eat what his two rottie brothers eat as he wud not eat the royal cannon.
    They are currently on madra dog food, it's the only decent dog food available in my area, everything else is smal dust like nut brand from places like telfords. I just can't see how that stuff is good for any dog.


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  • #7
    blaaah
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭blaaah


    portgirl123 wrote: »
    beautiful dog. is his worming up to date. what exercise is he getting a day. maybe he is so active that he needs more calories a day.

    Yeah they are a gorgeous dog. Yes worming is up to date and vets say he is on the thin side but not to worry about it, I tend to think their not totally right as much as I respect their opinion.
    He gets about an hours exercise a day, I have a local sectioned off field at my disposal and he really enjoys the freedom and runs all over the field and playing with the rotties. Come later on in d day I could say he would do another walk as huskies have so much energy. What would you suggest adding to his diet for extra calories?


  • #8
    blaaah
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭blaaah


    TooManyDogs wrote: »
    blaaah wrote: »
    He is a Freerunner dog.

    What's a freerunner dog? If he's doing heavy exercise then adjusting his diet could be the answer.

    What's the make up of his food? and how much exercise is he getting a day?

    Hi, it is a group of huskies which are known as show dogs type in Ireland. I got him in cork off a lovely eldery couple.
    See above post for his food :).


  • #9
    blaaah
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭blaaah


    Chris_Heilong wrote: »
    TooManyDogs wrote: »
    What's a freerunner dog? If he's doing heavy exercise then adjusting his diet could be the answer.

    What's the make up of his food? and how much exercise is he getting a day?

    true, dogs that are worked need more food than the average dog, you could try a raw egg mixed with his food once or twice a week also. He is still young at 1 year and I am sure you will notice a difference when his winter coat comes in.

    I actually put raw egg in their food every 2nd week. He's 1year n 6 months now. Any more suggestions would be great thanks.


  • #10
    andreac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,000 ✭✭✭andreac


    To be honest, Madra is awful stuff.

    Could you not order something online from one of the pet stores likes Zooplus etc?

    What about feeding some raw meat or mince?

    Ive never heard of free runner type dogs.... Im involved in showing and i know people that show Huskies and ive never heard them being called that??


  • #11
    portgirl123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 657 ✭✭✭portgirl123


    hate saying it but i think your problem could be the food. madra as far as i know is complete ****e. you can tell just by looking at the colour of it. dogs dont need brightley coloured food that is more for us to make it look appealing. my first port of call would be looking for a better food


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  • #12
    TooManyDogs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭TooManyDogs


    Madra isn't a great food so it may be that he's not absorbing enough calories from the food. Maybe try mixing some gravy through the royal canine to get him to eat it and gradually wean him off the gravy. Do a change over gradually, adding royal canine into his madra and gradually increase the royal canine.


  • #13
    blaaah
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭blaaah


    andreac wrote: »
    To be honest, Madra is awful stuff.

    Could you not order something online from one of the pet stores likes Zooplus etc?

    What about feeding some raw meat or mince?

    Ive never heard of free runner type dogs.... Im involved in showing and i know people that show Huskies and ive never heard them being called that??

    Great to know thank you, I didn't know that about madra food... so zooplus is the right place to order from? Could you recommend a type for huskie and rotties?

    Have fed them raw mince couple of times yeah but it's not a daily part of their diets.... should I put him on that too?

    Just google freerunner huskies and you will see it. That cool what dogs do you show? actually here is a link http://www.freewebs.com/siberianhuskyaurora/thelitter.htm

    I got him from their house not a kennel really, although I suppose they could of had a large attachment garden/kennel to the house but I doubt it. I just thought was few trainers using that name really.


  • #14
    blaaah
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭blaaah


    portgirl123 wrote: »
    hate saying it but i think your problem could be the food. madra as far as i know is complete ****e. you can tell just by looking at the colour of it. dogs dont need brightley coloured food that is more for us to make it look appealing. my first port of call would be looking for a better food

    Thank you for letting me know this, they use to be on kasko nuts but then all places where I lived stopped getting it in so I had to change...was kasko any good?


  • #15
    blaaah
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭blaaah


    TooManyDogs wrote: »
    Madra isn't a great food so it may be that he's not absorbing enough calories from the food. Maybe try mixing some gravy through the royal canine to get him to eat it and gradually wean him off the gravy. Do a change over gradually, adding royal canine into his madra and gradually increase the royal canine.

    Yes, I have tried this before gradually trying to take him off foods over course of a month but he still refused to eat it. Royal cannon is unbelievably expensive too especially for 3 big dogs.

    As you are saying tho if I can get a good dog food he might take to it with gravy and gradual change over.


  • #16
    ISDW
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ISDW


    Sibes need less food than most other breeds, they are very, very efficient eaters, so in fact, if they are overfed, they won't digest it, and will lose weight. So you may actually be overfeeding.

    Madra is really not good, if your dog is getting plenty of exercise, I would recommend a food that is at least 24% protein. Mine get raw food mostly, but also get Chudleys Working Crunch which is 28% protein. If you live anywhere near a greyhound track, go along on a race night, Chudleys will probably be on sale there, its fairly cheap, I pay £14 for a 15kg bag in Jollyes in Enniskillen, but chicken meat meal is the first ingredient and a lot of working sibes in the UK are fed on it. If you can't find Chudleys, then one of the Red Mills greyhound foods will do, I'd suggest the tracker for the rotties and the racer for the sibe. I used to feed it, but noticed a couple of my dogs getting red paws, so have switched to Chudleys when I'm feeding kibble.

    Just thought, on the not eating thing, one of my sibes won't eat for days at a time, but he's fit and healthy, again its down to their efficient digestive system. Vince didn't eat at all on Friday or Saturday, but still managed to run 2.5 miles on Saturday night in harness, and another 4 miles on Sunday. He did eat after his run on Sunday.:)


  • #17
    TooManyDogs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭TooManyDogs


    blaaah wrote: »
    As you are saying tho if I can get a good dog food he might take to it with gravy and gradual change over.

    Exactly. The thing about Madra is that it's like McDonalds food, it's always going to taste better than the likes of Royal Canine but won't have half of the nutrients. So gradually get his taste buds used to something else by using a gravy or meat as a bridge and then drop it away.

    There's also www.dogfooddirect.ie for delivered dog food, they have a whole range of food


  • #18
    blaaah
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭blaaah


    ISDW wrote: »
    Sibes need less food than most other breeds, they are very, very efficient eaters, so in fact, if they are overfed, they won't digest it, and will lose weight. So you may actually be overfeeding.

    Madra is really not good, if your dog is getting plenty of exercise, I would recommend a food that is at least 24% protein. Mine get raw food mostly, but also get Chudleys Working Crunch which is 28% protein. If you live anywhere near a greyhound track, go along on a race night, Chudleys will probably be on sale there, its fairly cheap, I pay £14 for a 15kg bag in Jollyes in Enniskillen, but chicken meat meal is the first ingredient and a lot of working sibes in the UK are fed on it. If you can't find Chudleys, then one of the Red Mills greyhound foods will do, I'd suggest the tracker for the rotties and the racer for the sibe. I used to feed it, but noticed a couple of my dogs getting red paws, so have switched to Chudleys when I'm feeding kibble.

    Just thought, on the not eating thing, one of my sibes won't eat for days at a time, but he's fit and healthy, again its down to their efficient digestive system. Vince didn't eat at all on Friday or Saturday, but still managed to run 2.5 miles on Saturday night in harness, and another 4 miles on Sunday. He did eat after his run on Sunday.:)

    Great help thank you, I think chudleys is only available certain places and doesn't deliver, just been on their site and I don't live anywhere near a dog track:(. I have found Red Mills tho from the link twomanydogs put up. Just one thought should I be buying this if it's a case my dogs mite get red paw? Also in your opinion would the huskie notice anything different between the raver and the tracker? He is so head strong on the fact he wants to eat what the rotties are eating hence why he wouldn't take to royal cannon.
    So what raw meats do you give your dogs?


  • #19
    blaaah
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭blaaah


    TooManyDogs wrote: »
    Exactly. The thing about Madra is that it's like McDonalds food, it's always going to taste better than the likes of Royal Canine but won't have half of the nutrients. So gradually get his taste buds used to something else by using a gravy or meat as a bridge and then drop it away.

    There's also www.dogfooddirect.ie for delivered dog food, they have a whole range of food

    Very well put, thank you for the enlightenment. Also the link is great thank you again.


  • #20
    ABitofsense
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭ABitofsense


    Hi

    I have a 10mth male husky and im now feeding him Select Gold Junior Sensitive (about 200g twice daily) with some Real Nature Wet food mixed in (a large spoon full only).
    He went completely off his food a month and half ago and would not eat at all for well over a week. I got really worried as he looked really skinny. One of the people working in Maxizoo told me to mix in some wet food and now hes thriving on it. He has more energy and looks amazing now. Also up to a 6.5 mile cycle a day with him and he wants to keep going (i cant just yet :()


  • #21
    ISDW
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ISDW


    The reason I suggested the Tracker for the rotties is that it is 18% protein I think, whereas the Racer is higher, it may be too much for the rotties, and the 18% probably wouldn't be enough for the sibe. It wasn't all of my dogs that started getting red paws, just a couple, so I thought they might have been having a reaction to the grain or cereal in the food. However I know a good few sibe owners that feed it with no problems at all.

    A good food that delivers is Best for my Dog,if you google it, you will find the Irish site, they deliver very quickly. It may seem expensive, but again, you feed less of it, so it works out quite well and would be suitable for all of your dogs.

    Like a lot of people, I have had to cut back on things, so my local butcher gives me off cuts, and the dogs are thriving on them, its mainly beef and lamb, with some chicken. Again, sibes do well on fatty foods, so the off cuts are perfect for them, and they get a good bit of bone as well to gnaw on. I'm still trying to get the amounts right though, as some of mine have put a bit of weight on, because you really don't need to feed them very much, I see whats in their bowl and feel sorry for them, so give them a bit more:rolleyes: They absolutely love it though, I give dry food every few days, as its easier to take with us when we go away, so I don't want it to be a shock to them to go back on it for a weekend, but Diesel wouldn't eat it this morning, he obviously thinks he should have been having meat.


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  • #22
    blaaah
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭blaaah


    ISDW wrote: »
    The reason I suggested the Tracker for the rotties is that it is 18% protein I think, whereas the Racer is higher, it may be too much for the rotties, and the 18% probably wouldn't be enough for the sibe. It wasn't all of my dogs that started getting red paws, just a couple, so I thought they might have been having a reaction to the grain or cereal in the food. However I know a good few sibe owners that feed it with no problems at all.

    A good food that delivers is Best for my Dog,if you google it, you will find the Irish site, they deliver very quickly. It may seem expensive, but again, you feed less of it, so it works out quite well and would be suitable for all of your dogs.

    Like a lot of people, I have had to cut back on things, so my local butcher gives me off cuts, and the dogs are thriving on them, its mainly beef and lamb, with some chicken. Again, sibes do well on fatty foods, so the off cuts are perfect for them, and they get a good bit of bone as well to gnaw on. I'm still trying to get the amounts right though, as some of mine have put a bit of weight on, because you really don't need to feed them very much, I see whats in their bowl and feel sorry for them, so give them a bit more:rolleyes: They absolutely love it though, I give dry food every few days, as its easier to take with us when we go away, so I don't want it to be a shock to them to go back on it for a weekend, but Diesel wouldn't eat it this morning, he obviously thinks he should have been having meat.

    Great post, insighting thank you. Good idea about the butchers too! I got to the makers of chudely and they have pointed me in the right direction to purchasing their food, so hopefully crudely for Ochii and red mill for Tyson & Hooch. Just on Red Mills, I don't see tracker name on their brands, only leader adult, leader adult large, leader adult sensitive and leader energy.... which one is tracker?


  • #23
    ISDW
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ISDW


    blaaah wrote: »
    Great post, insighting thank you. Good idea about the butchers too! I got to the makers of chudely and they have pointed me in the right direction to purchasing their food, so hopefully crudely for Ochii and red mill for Tyson & Hooch. Just on Red Mills, I don't see tracker name on their brands, only leader adult, leader adult large, leader adult sensitive and leader energy.... which one is tracker?

    The Tracker is part of their greyhound range, reduced VAT, so works out slightly cheaper. If you've got hold of Chudleys though, maybe see if they do a resting greyhound food for the rotties, just because its called greyhound food doesn't mean its just for greyhounds, its because of the reduced VAT that they call it that. In the UK, working dog food is VAT free, which is why a lot of food is called working, or greyhound, but is suitable for pets, as long as the protein levels aren't too high.


  • #24
    pokertalk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 806 ✭✭✭pokertalk


    he should be in the 50 -60 lb range. have you had him weighed. tuna in sunflower oil is great for mixing into any dry food to make it more tasty just one of the small cans and mix it rite tru


  • #25
    kimmyt1987
    Registered Users Posts: 261 ✭✭kimmyt1987


    Hi there....
    I am nowhere NEAR as knowledgable as ISDW and the likes on these matters but the boyfriend was having a similar problem with his newest pup... She is a tall skinny GSD pup who he was worried about, took her for a vets check up and to be weighed, changed foods a couple times, fed raw etc. He researched and found a recipe for Satan Balls which is meant to put weight on any dog, some sticky mess though... Check it out here...
    http://www.dogforum.net/dog-frequently-asked-questions/5191-how-make-satin-balls-fat-balls.html

    Since then she has lost a couple of puppy teeth which I reckon were her main reasons for not eating as much as he had wanted her to...
    We have since changed my husky and the two German Shepherds from Arden Grange (plus a full cooked chicken brought home from work every night :) ) which was expensive but full of nutrients to Vet Essentials large breed puppy as the little one took a liking to that, (and it was a little cheaper too.) I find that when mixed with a really tasty canned food they rarely say no though!


  • #26
    DogsFirst
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 360 ✭✭DogsFirst


    ISDW wrote: »
    The reason I suggested the Tracker for the rotties is that it is 18% protein I think, whereas the Racer is higher, it may be too much for the rotties, and the 18% probably wouldn't be enough for the sibe. It wasn't all of my dogs that started getting red paws, just a couple, so I thought they might have been having a reaction to the grain or cereal in the food. However I know a good few sibe owners that feed it with no problems at all


    In case any readers are confused on the whole itchy red paw thing I have posted on the issue for a westie owner and thought it might help here

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...6&postcount=63

    While grain (gluten) is certainly up there as the leading cause there are a lot of misconceptions regarding the issue.

    Hope it helps.


    Further, ISDW, why do you think Rotties need less protein than other breeds? Assuming they're all carnivores (and so a diet of largely fresh animal protein (<70%) and some fat and bone, I would like to venture that this information is very misled and should be disregarded by Rottie owners.

    An exact protein level is completely refuted by the literature today. Sometimes by changing the food to a "lower protein level" and having success leads to some wrongly assuming it was the lower protein level that sorted the problem. For more on this very popular, but very mistaken belief, please read any of my previous posts on protein levels in dogs or check out my website (in construction) where the editors note at the bottom explains the issue.

    Bottom line is, as you reduce the protein in large breeds such as Rotties, and increase unnecssary carbohydarte to levels of 60% and above, these dogs will suffer lean muscle mass loss (requires adequate supply of high quality protein), joint damage (requires adequate supply of high quality protein), obesity (excess carbs are stored as fat), pancreatic issues including diabetes and pancreatitis (the dogs pancreas, unused to dealing with carbohydrates will be forced to produce i) enough amylase to break down the carbohydrate load as this enzyme is absent in the saliva of the dog, because it's a carnivore and ii) produce enough insulin to balance the soaring blood sugar levels. As the pancreas strains it will eventually shut down, leading to pancreatitis. Dogs are 25 times more likely to suffer pancreatitis than humans (references available on previous posts). Diabetes is up x4 in last 20 years.

    Bottom line regarding protein is, how much did you eat yesterday? Last week? Did your kids have? This focus on protein (in a carnivore that processes it far better than we do) is completely unfounded, and as it is not stored by the body and it is harmlessly rid in the urine, completely irrelevant. Dogs with 75-90% kidney reduction are proven to actually do better on high protein diets (see previous posts).

    Rotties need a very high protein, low carbohydrate diet from 4wks old until the day they die, forming the best joints, maintaining form, coat and vitality.


  • #27
    ISDW
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ISDW


    DogsFirst wrote: »
    In case any readers are confused on the whole itchy red paw thing I have posted on the issue for a westie owner and thought it might help here

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...6&postcount=63

    While grain (gluten) is certainly up there as the leading cause there are a lot of misconceptions regarding the issue.

    Hope it helps.


    Further, ISDW, why do you think Rotties need less protein than other breeds? Assuming they're all carnivores (and so a diet of largely fresh animal protein (<70%) and some fat and bone, I would like to venture that this information is very misled and should be disregarded by Rottie owners.

    We were discussing greyhound food, for working dogs. Tracker is for resting dogs, so therefore the protein level is lower. I'm guessing most rottie owners in this country don't work their dogs.

    I won't carry on with this discussion with you as I find your posts really patronising, you are obviously the expert and everybody else knows nothing, which is also why I didn't reply to your pm.


  • #28
    DogsFirst
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 360 ✭✭DogsFirst


    kimmyt1987 wrote: »
    Hi there.... boyfriend was having a similar problem with his newest pup... She is a tall skinny GSD pup who he was worried about, took her for a vets check up and to be weighed, changed foods a couple times, fed raw etc. He researched and found a recipe for Satan Balls which is meant to put weight on any dog, some sticky mess though...

    Your GSD (a breed with a notoriously delicate gut lining) is suffering from a food allergy. You need to cut gluten, cooked protein and chemical additives from her diet. You may notice her poo is a little runny now and again, sometimes with a mucous on it, perhaps even blood. She will become thin, her coat will dry ad crispen up, she will be off her food, her feet might get itchy and sore.

    The advice of moving to high fat to "fatten up" the dog is wrong, even if it is from a vet and appears to be working. Putting on fat is not what's needed, it is putting on lean muscle mass, which is done with fresh protein.
    Furthermore the excess fat must be removed by the dogs system which requires added vitamin E and C. Vit E mops up fat radicles (when excess fat enters the blood these need to be mopped up or they cause a lot of issues). As vitamins are included "at a minimum required for growth" in dry food (AAFCO 1995) you are increasing the fat content without increasing the good stuff. Advising to increase the fat content of your diet by such a degree in absence of, in the very least, additional vitamins, is not advised by any nutritionist worth their salt but is a common practice in humans none the less (see boards posts on "how to gain weight". Then compare this info to Google "how to put on weight" which will lead you to gainingweight.co.uk has some nuggets in there, or any site that looks half reputable.

    It is not fat you need on your bones, it is lean muscle mass. And lean muscle is built with good quality protein.

    But your girl isn't absorbing what she needs form her food, likely due to malabsorbtion, like due to gluten. At any rate you need to cut out cereal containing gluten (wheat, barley, rye), cooked protein and chemicals (which is pretty much all dry food) which are causing the allergy (not sure which, could be any, GSD's gut lining is very sensitive) and instead look to be including fresh meats (70%) such as raw chicken or mince and maybe some cooked veggies (20%) for the vitamin boost and some raw meaty bones. These are plenty high in fat but more importantly high quality protein. Once the anitgens are removed and the good proteins go in your dog will recover. If you continue on the way you are her joints will form poorly and her allergies and weight loss will continue.

    I see she's getting cooked chicken, which is a good step but unless you tackle the malabsorbtion it will pass through and your dog won't gain from it. If you're concerned about raw food etc check out our previous posts and discussions which should clear up most of your concerns, or first read our on our new (and apologies, under construction) website.

    And she needs the chicken bones! Just not the cooked ones.

    While her immune system is down make sure she is getting plenty of vitamin C which is at dangerously low levels normally in processed food. Manufacturers state it is not a requirement of dogs as they can make their own. Which is true, in part. They can, but very poorly. Dogs working, in stress, in pain or simply ill need boosts of vitamin C that will not be found in dry food. Strongly recommend this. Human tablets fine, give her a third of what you take, avoid effervescent, stick in a saussie as dogs don't like the citrus taste.

    Best of luck.


  • #29
    DogsFirst
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 360 ✭✭DogsFirst


    ISDW wrote: »
    We were discussing greyhound food, for working dogs. Tracker is for resting dogs, so therefore the protein level is lower. I'm guessing most rottie owners in this country don't work their dogs.

    I won't carry on with this discussion with you as I find your posts really patronising, you are obviously the expert and everybody else knows nothing, which is also why I didn't reply to your pm.



    I'm very sorry if you find me patronising ISDW, I always try to moderate my tone. Unfortunately the only people to feel patronised so far have been yourself and vets, hopefully others find the information useful.

    I really feel this is a problem unique to the doggy realm. Dog breeders, trainers, vets, all of us, can't seem to be told anything. It's a major problem and one of the reasons why dog food is the way it is. I remember I was running a stand for guide dogs once when a famous lab breeder came up us (an organisation who has been training dogs 9-5, for the last 60 years) and told us that we were damn fools for using dogs as well as bitches "when everyone knows the dogs are only good for one thing". We couldn't argue as she was not going to listen so my boss thanked her. I wouldn't have and would of argued the point. I am not sure who would be more right.

    You are feeling patronised because as you pointed out, I am very knowledgable in this profession, I lecture on the matter and there are relatively few better poised to do so. The difference between your argument and mine is that mine is based on facts and figures. Without this stuff you feel threatened. I don't understand that mentality. I mean if I'm wiring my house with a remedial training in electricity and an electrician comes along and tells me I'm doing it wrong, I'd appreciate the professional direction. A lot of doggy professionals would just tell that electrician to hop it!

    The best dog trainers learn every day. The worst ones know it all and won't budge. We saw it with the use of treats, clicker, a good relationship instead of a good slap, whatever. All adamantly opposed for so long. And to this day. I'm not sure that would happen in any other profession.

    I love the new info this forum provides and previous posts reveal this where people have great ideas and new facts. But

    Sorry again ISDW. Ironically I might've sounded less patronising to you if I was a vet who, without further personal and extensive research, would be far less capable of arguing the point, than I am.

    If you have a look at my conversations with Wibbs who obviously knows his stuff, from the offset we to'd and fro'd from but it never got patronising or offensive, we were just bouncing ideas off eachother and arguing points. I made and conceded points, as did he. I don't think at any point Wibbs was threatened, just eager.

    But thanks for your comments, I will take more time in addressing the tone of my emails in future. However I will continue to correct your quotes where they are wrong as too many people will be affected. I honestly only mean it in the spirit the forum was created.

    So.........
    ISDW wrote: »
    Tracker is for resting dogs, so therefore the protein level is lower.


    Lowering the protein content of the food for a resting dog is incorrect. Assuming you are trying to provide a lower energy food for the resting dog, you are lowering the one ingredient that is not stored by the body, which is protein, and in turn are increasing the carbohydrate and / or fat content, which are both stored as fat.

    Take human athletes as the obvious example here. Before the big race they eat high carb meals for that required energy boost. Afterwards, like race car drivers, jockeys, models, weight lifters, anyone that watches their weight, they focus on protein. Protein builds muscle, maintains the body, but doesn't affect the bodies fat.

    It may be that you are increasing indigestible bulking fibre (which is itself a carbohydrate) and this will give you the lower energy food you are looking for. However fibre is not only completely unnecessary in the dogs diet, it bulks up and waters down the dogs faeces. Food is encouraged to shoot through the dogs already rapid system, so the dog gets even less from his diet. Without adequate protein and now malabsorbtion from the fibre (and likely gluten laden meal) the dog's body will canabalise it's own protein from it's muscles and organs to maintain itself, resulting in muscle wastage.

    Greyhound breeders who work so hard at putting lean muscle mass on their dogs need to maintain these dogs on high quality protein diets while at rest, maintaining lean muscle mass, and put the carbs / fat in pre race, like humans, and very other animal model out there.

    Bar some rare examples of serious illness, there is never a need to maintain a dog on a low protein diet unless that need is cost and convenience.


    Sorry ISDW, I will try to avoid you in the future.


  • #30
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    DogsFirst wrote:
    If you have a look at my conversations with Wibbs who obviously knows his stuff
    Jayzuz I wish! :D It just seems to me that the dog world compared to the human world is a step or two behind when it comes to advice and scarily so when it comes to actual professional advice that people rely on. Yet the scientific research is there, much of it extensive and repeated. I've been able to find it on free to view pubmed type stuff online. I gather there's even more behind pay per view/professional sites.

    This research contradicts many of the "givens" we're being generally told on matters like food, the unequivocal yearly vaccinations, neutering to name the more obvious ones(Yearly vaccines are insisted upon if you need to get your pet insured). It used to be similar with out of date training methods that folks here would rightly call as bogus(dominance and all that guff). Methods that I'm quite sure would have been "givens" and defended vigorously if this site was active 20 years ago. Hell it's still defended vigorously in other places since Cesar Milan et al have made it TV friendly even though based on bogus theories and out of date science.

    Most of all the question I'd ask re food and it's an obvious one... Why would an animal evolved to be an apex predator do well on a largely grain based diet? Why would protein, about the biggest thing they would eat in the wild be reduced to such a degree in commercial foods. It makes zero sense to me. We do well on such diets(well it depends...) but we've evolved as serious omnivores. It's one of the major items in our evolutionary bag of tricks. Look at how many human foods we can eat no bother, yet are poisonous to our dogs. Tomatoes in quantity are really good for us, help protect against heart disease and cancer, yet can kill a dog stone dead(ditto for grapes). Now unless domesticated dogs have co evolved with us in the last 10,000 years(possibly?) it would make sense to copy their "original" diet to some degree. No?

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • #31
    DogsFirst
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 360 ✭✭DogsFirst


    I obviously agree whole heartedly to this.

    Lets get married.

    I'm looking at my previous posts, I think they're a bit long. I need to work on my wordiness. This forum is slightly different to the more specialised dog forums where long, supported arguments / answers are considered beneficial / necessary.

    Sorry if taking attention off point....


  • #32
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,729 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    Dogsfirst--You were already warned by a mod about promoting your website yet in one of you posts here you linked to your site again.

    This is a final warning to you.If you link/promote your site one more time in this forum you can take a break from the forum for a few days.

    As for whatever is going on between you and ISDW--This is not the place for it.
    Instead of arguing between you two can you try keep it nice.


  • #33
    Delancey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,451 ✭✭✭Delancey


    In my opinion absolutely anything is better than Madra food - pure rubbish and if trying to increase weight that has to be the first thing to get rid of.


  • #34
    DogsFirst
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 360 ✭✭DogsFirst


    Hellrazer wrote: »
    Dogsfirst--You were already warned by a mod about promoting your website yet in one of you posts here you linked to your site again.

    This is a final warning to you.If you link/promote your site one more time in this forum you can take a break from the forum for a few days.



    I was warned about that but I think I need clearing up on the rules. When I pursued what the rules were re pushing site info I concluded from the comments made (which I can't seem to find now conveniently enough) that if I was clearing up a question then theoretically a link could be made to the site where the info lies, as long as I was helping. Maybe I'm mistaken but I'm definitely confused. Especially as there is some mods here that are friends of products in facebook and pushing those links and associated info.

    But I get it HR and I won't mention the site again.


  • #35
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,729 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    DogsFirst wrote: »
    I was warned about that but I think I need clearing up on the rules.

    The rules are quite clear ie no linking to or promoting your own product or website that is selling products.
    When I pursued what the rules were re pushing site info I concluded from the comments made (which I can't seem to find now conveniently enough) that if I was clearing up a question then theoretically a link could be made to the site where the info lies, as long as I was helping.

    All well and good as long as its not your own product you are linking to which you have done on more than one occasion.

    Maybe I'm mistaken but I'm definitely confused. Especially as there is some mods here that are friends of products in facebook and pushing those links and associated info.

    Completely irrelevant--if someone is a friend of a product on facebook that has no bearing on linking to your own product.
    See the difference is if you linked to a product or site that you werent involved with then that would be ok.Linking to your own site in order to profit/benefit from that link is against the rules.
    But I get it HR and I won't mention the site again.

    No worries--I think it should be clear enough for you now.


  • #36
    DogsFirst
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 360 ✭✭DogsFirst


    Got it, cheers for that HR.


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  • #37
    blaaah
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭blaaah


    So what dog food would you recommend Dogfirst?

    I have my husky on red mills racer & my two rotties on red mills tracker.


  • #38
    DogsFirst
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 360 ✭✭DogsFirst


    The best food is fresh, natural food, so I'm "one of those". As a scavenging carnivore this means the dog needs plenty of fresh, raw meat, bone and some cooked veg (roughly 70, 10 and 20%, respectively). Probably abundantly clear from all my other posts!!

    I'm spending €1.30 or so per kilo at the moment on the fillet steak of dogs dinners, my 11 yr old who was hobbling with sever hip dysplasia (dry fed by Mum until I returned from Oz last year after three year absence) is back up and at 'em, like a new dog (photos, vids and vet reports available if you're interested).

    Even if I wanted to I can't afford to go back to dry food. Fillet steak for €1.30 or pellets of 20% twice cooked "animal" protein, chemical laced, months old crackers for twice the price in a groovy convenient bag.

    I can't see the point.


  • #39
    UnknownSpecies
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,183 ✭✭✭UnknownSpecies


    Had the same problem with my 18month old samoyed. He was very skinny, just didn't seem to be filling out. We had him eating some cheap food similar to Madra but even after giving him much bigger portions, he wasn't filing out. So we moved him over to Burns dog food here.

    Worked a treat, he has totally filled out, looks like a proper dog now :) Can't remember exactly how much weight he gained, I'll find out and post back though.


  • #40
    DogsFirst
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 360 ✭✭DogsFirst


    Nice one, a good result! Take the gluten out and....tah dahhh!!


  • #41
    Vince32
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 425 ✭✭Vince32


    Ask your vet for some information on feeds, some feeds are packed with "fillers" like corn, soy, wheat or other crap which isn't giving your dog the nutrients it needs.

    http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/

    Find the one your using and go up a few levels, it doesn't have to cost a fortune to feed your dog, though the rule of thumb is "you get what you pay for", be prepared to shell out another tenner on the next bag of food.

    I use "Select Gold 'Junior' " for my pup, and she loves it, she leaves nothing in the bowl and sometimes looks to me for seconds.

    The best advice you'll get is from your vet, s/he can help you with every aspect of your dog's life and will be glad you consulted before making a decision.


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  • #42
    blaaah
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭blaaah


    DogsFirst wrote: »
    The best food is fresh, natural food, so I'm "one of those". As a scavenging carnivore this means the dog needs plenty of fresh, raw meat, bone and some cooked veg (roughly 70, 10 and 20%, respectively). Probably abundantly clear from all my other posts!!

    Even if I wanted to, I'm spending €1.30 or so per kilo at the moment on the fillet steak of dogs dinners, my 11 yr old who was hobbling with sever hip dysplasia (dry fed by Mum until I returned from Oz last year after three year absence) is back up and at 'em, like a new dog (photos, vids and vet reports available if you're interested).

    Even if I wanted to I can't afford to go back to dry food. Fillet steak for €1.30 or pellets of 20% twice cooked "animal" protein, chemical laced, months old crackers for twice the price in a groovy convenient bag.

    I can't see the point.

    So like I just go to my local butchers? How much meat do I get for 3 large dogs? What type of meat? Can you vary to and from different meats? Step by step guide would be perfect if you can.

    I am pretty much learning the basic here as I've never had the pleasure of talking to dedicated ppl like you and ISDW before.


  • #43
    DogsFirst
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 360 ✭✭DogsFirst


    Vince32 wrote: »
    Ask your vet for some information on feeds, some feeds are packed with "fillers" like corn, soy, wheat or other crap which isn't giving your dog the nutrients it needs.

    The best advice you'll get is from your vet, s/he can help you with every aspect of your dog's life and will be glad you consulted before making a decision.

    I dunno Vince. A vet does two short modules of nutrition in 5 years. These two modules must cover the 5 basic animals groups. As Parker-Pope highlighted in her article for the Wall Street Journal "Why Vets Recommend ‘Designer’ Chow" (Tara Parker-Pope
The Wall Street Journal, Monday November 3, 1997) with the cash starved state of universities today these courses are all too often now based on dry food money and dry food literature. Such as the most popular book used by vets in canine and feline nutrition "Small Animal Clinical Nutrition", produced by the Morris Institute, which is the "science" arm of Colgate-Palmollive, owners of the immense Hills Pet Nutrition.

    After this, without further personal and private study into the collossal role of nutrition in the health of an animal, vets are left attending the same biased info day courses constantly put on by the major labels, that I too attended as a supervisor with guide dogs.

    I don't believe vets have all the answers here. As dry food sales fall last year (Euromonitor Pet Food Report, 2010-2011, summary available online, great read), vets need to rethink their whole "baby formula is still better than breast milk" marketing guff. It's simply not the case.

    Pet owners today are moving towards fresher, lower carbohydrate, more natural alternatives for the nutritional benefits they are thought to convey (Londsdale (2001), Berschneider (2002), Joffe and Schlesinger (2002), Stogdale and Diehl (2003), Hill (2004), Weese, Rousseau and Arroyo (2005), Finley, Reid-Smith and Weese (2006), Morley et al. (2006), Strohmeyer et al. (2006), Remillard (2008), Euromonitor Petfood Report (2011), Schlesinger and Joffe (2011). PM me for these refs, or google the matter (google scholar). Most of these studies highlight the failing of vets in this respect.

    I think they have a lot to answer for, like a doctor selling frozen pizza's as a side line. "Yes Mr Thompson your child is in great shape, on your way out make sure you exit through the gift shop where we have THE BEST nutrition for your child. The chicken came all the way from China".


  • #44
    DogsFirst
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 360 ✭✭DogsFirst


    blaaah wrote: »
    So like I just go to my local butchers? How much meat do I get for 3 large dogs? What type of meat? Can you vary to and from different meats? Step by step guide would be perfect if you can.

    I am pretty much learning the basic here as I've never had the pleasure of talking to dedicated ppl like you and ISDW before.


    Re how much, you're talking 2 - 3% of their body weight each day, or around 20% of his MW per week. Aim for that. But it's not set in stone. If you have a setter and she gets a few good runs a day she's going to need more. If you have a lab that gets a walk every other day, maybe cut it back a bit.

    Give her a few meaty bones, cut it back that day etc. Like feeding the kids. Simple.

    Tip: Get yourself a cloth measuring tape. If you like her weight now, measure her waist - trace your finger back along her ribcage to where it ends at her abdomen / tum. That's what you measure around. Get a measurement, it helps you keep an eye as sometimes we don't see the pounds creeping on!!

    All dogs should be lean. The biggest mistake owners make is having fat pups. Pups should be lean for optimum development. No animals are fat when they are young (unless you're a seal). Like in children, obesity while young puts enormous strain on developing organs and joint damage and may lead to paneosteitis (abnormal and painful thickening of the bone in larger breeds, causes lameness for a few months).

    So the ribs should be palpable (be able to be felt with the fingers) but not seen. 'course that all depends on the breed etc.

    You know yourself.


  • #45
    Vince32
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 425 ✭✭Vince32


    Yes your right of course, don't get me wrong some vet's are pushing products given to them by by sales reps and such, so your right to say the vet has a bias when it comes to food products.

    But instead, tell your vet you want to bulk it up, or slim it down, create more muscle, increase its staminia or what ever your need is, and ask for nutrition advice, like more or less protein, more or less carbs, more or less oils or fats, specific to your breed and the work rate you require, and without letting them "sell" you some feed, stick to the key points and then find food with the components the vet recommended.

    We know carbs are slow release calories, and protein will build muscle, I have heard of owners who don't buy "dog food" and stick to raw meats, fish and eggs, which gives the requirement of carbs, proteins, fats and oils for a healthy animal.

    But if you don't know what you breeds daily requirements are, and it's burning more calories than it takes in, the result will undoubtedly weight loss. So if in doubt contact your vet for the dietary info. Other breeders and owners who are experienced with the breed have honed the diet into exactly what "they" need from "their" dogs, and one solution that works for one set of animals, may not be the best advise for the next "set" of animals.

    So your vet will tell you how to feed a working dog, and a show dog , the diets will differ, but not to the point you need to stress over it.

    A better quality feed, in lower portion sizes may help the dog gain weight, where as lower grade feeds might do little to improve you dog's condition, no matter how much you give them.

    I still think asking the vet is the first stop on the road for information, after that owners with dogs with the same-ish work rate, will give their dogs diets and how they respond to it, lastly of all I would put stock into "research" by magazines, because just like the vet, they can e influenced by advertisers also, but unlike the magazines, the vets have the animals interest at heart.

    Don't stress over it though, just think about what you want from your dog, and feed it accordingly. Some Feeds (the expensive ones) are alot better in smaller doses than loads of lower quality.


  • #46
    DogsFirst
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 360 ✭✭DogsFirst


    Definitely agree with the no stress bit! Its as easy as feeding yourself.

    I guess the key is finding the right vet, not the one closest to you. Lets face it theres lots of cracking vets out there, maybe we should get a thread going on it......

    But if you go to one for nutritional advice and they tell you a dog needs any amount of carbs (more than zero) in their diet, they're wrong. All the other stuff, like how much zinc, selenium, vitamin E, is not important if you feed a varied diet, which wil balance out over time. Those sort of details are reductionism i.e. reduced to the point that it makes little sense to you the consumer. Confused you turn to expert advice and scientifically formulated over-priced bags of crap sitting on their shelf.


  • #47
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    DogsFirst wrote: »
    All dogs should be lean. The biggest mistake owners make is having fat pups. Pups should be lean for optimum development. No animals are fat when they are young (unless you're a seal). Like in children, obesity while young puts enormous strain on developing organs and joint damage and may lead to paneosteitis (abnormal and painful thickening of the bone in larger breeds, causes lameness for a few months).
    And is apparently a strong influence in the occurrence of hip dysplasia http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/saortho/chapter_83/83mast.htm#sect3 "In 222 German shepherds born consecutively, 100 were dysplastic, and the prevalence of hip dysplasia at 1 year had a direct correlation with their weight at 60 days of age. The heavier dogs, that is, the heaviest males and heaviest females at 60 days of age, had the highest incidence of hip dysplasia at maturity" One theory goes that the rarity of HD in wild canids is(among other things) this lower juvenile weight and slower maturation.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #48
    DogsFirst
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 360 ✭✭DogsFirst


    Wibbs wrote: »
    And is apparently a strong influence in the occurrence of hip dysplasia http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/saortho/chapter_83/83mast.htm#sect3 "In 222 German shepherds born consecutively, 100 were dysplastic, and the prevalence of hip dysplasia at 1 year had a direct correlation with their weight at 60 days of age. The heavier dogs, that is, the heaviest males and heaviest females at 60 days of age, had the highest incidence of hip dysplasia at maturity" One theory goes that the rarity of HD in wild canids is(among other things) this lower juvenile weight and slower maturation.

    Spot on. Great ref there, cheers.

    If optimum joint formation is what you're looking for, I'm obsessed optimum joint formation. If I could add to the list of why manufactured food fails abysmally in joint formation......

    - Poor quality protein (essential for joints)
    - Gluten (malabsorbtion of vital nutrients)
    - Insufficient vitamins (included at a minimum required for growth (AAFCO pet food standards 1995, you can find these by typing it into google images)
    - Calcium. Most of all. It is recommended to be included at 0.67% for dogs today but still most dry foods are 0.8% and above (everyone check their bag! then go check the AAFCO guidelines in google, type in AAFCO nutritional profiles into google images). While it doesn't look like a lot that is 20% more than recommended, every day of your life.

    Taken from my own stuff (refs available on request):

    "...at this constantly high level of calcium and phosphorus young bone and cartilaginous tissues stop developing normally, bones can become thicker and more dense and excessive growth will create troublesome spurs of bone growth and joint development problems, particularly FCP (Fragmented Coronoid Process), OCD (Osteo Chondritis Dessicans) and CHD (Canine Hip Dysplasia) (Hedhammer et al. (l974), Goedegebuure and Hazewinkel (1986), Hazewinkel et al. (l991), Nap et al. (l993), Hsu (1997), Richardson (l997), LaFond et al. (2002, Hazelwinkel and Mott (2006), Petfood Industry Magazine (June, 2000, page 38))"

    ...also salt and rotten bones in senior dogs...

    "....as we have established your average labrador (30kg) requires a maximum of 1g of salt (NaCl) a day for normal functioning.

    While dry foods will vary in saltiness the upper limits for dry food is set for 2.5% (AAFCO 1995). This is a higher salt content than sea water and is common for all supermarket brands and many premium brands. As in human processed food it lacks nutritive motive and is included in high dose purely to increase palatability. To put this level of salt in content it is twice the salt content of salted peanuts and more salt than sea water. 2.5% NaCl is common for all supermarket brands and many premium brands.

    At 2.5% salt, a standard labrador eating the recommended 440g of that food would be consuming 11g of salt a day. That is 11 times the Recommended Daily Allowance of salt for your lab (according to both AAFCO and NRC Nutrient Guidelines). This figure would be even higher for developing pups consuming more food each sitting, but with a smaller body size.

    The average humans (75kg) is recommended to consume no more than 6g of salt a day but UK adults are now averaging 9g of salt a day, or 1.5 times their RDA. This level of salt intake in humans is linked to hypertension, cardiovascular disease, osteoporosis, stomach ulcers and cancer, kidney and bone disease (www.actiononsalt.org.uk, SACN (2000)). Children particularly consuming 1.5 times their RDA of salt are more likely to develop stomach cancer and osteoporosis (www.actiononsalt.org.uk).

    Unless dogs have evolved a mechanism of exuding salt on their skin or spitting it from their nose like an iguana we can only assume that 11 times the RDA of salt is going to do significantly more damage in dogs than 1.5 times the RDA of salt in humans. Few long term studies are available to examine this quandary however we do know that like in humans excess ingestion of salt will induce hypertension in the dog (Gupta et al. 1981). Also 43% of the sodium consumed is stored in the bones of dogs (NRC (2006)), so if it's bone health or osteoporosis you are concerned for in your dog, this is certainly a factor you need to consider

    While some pet foods are today lowering their salt content, anything above 1.5 times RDA every day must be detrimental to the developing organs of the pup and adult dog. It also goes some way to explaining the excessive thirst and urination of dry fed pups whilst toilet training. Without the evidence, one can only ponder the effect of 11 times RDA of salt on developing organs, namely the kidneys, and it is another culprit to add to the epidemic of kidney disease in our dogs today".


  • #49
    Vince32
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 425 ✭✭Vince32


    holy mother.. you know all that !! that's awesome :)

    So Knowing all you know about foods and joints and size, what would you recommend for a lean 1.5yr old Husky, who runs 2-3 miles 4 times a week?

    Is raw food preferred to the bagged dry stuff? and how much in g's should be their diet (roughly)?

    If you don't mind of course.


  • #50
    DogsFirst
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 360 ✭✭DogsFirst


    Vince32 wrote: »
    holy mother.. you know all that !! that's awesome :)

    So Knowing all you know about foods and joints and size, what would you recommend for a lean 1.5yr old Husky, who runs 2-3 miles 4 times a week?

    Is raw food preferred to the bagged dry stuff? and how much in g's should be their diet (roughly)?

    If you don't mind of course.

    Funny stuff!!!

    Re feeding husky fresh food, start off with 20% of his body weight each week divided into 14, of. the standard food - fresh meat bone and cooked veg (70, 10 & 20). For which meat read above posts. Tips on keeping price down to 1.50/kg about the place (away from laptop at moment, can send threads on to you). Tips for how too. Or you can pm me.

    Great with huskies, you see the effect of the good protein almost instantly in their coat, wait and see.

    Fresh food is the best nutrition available. Easy but takes a little effort to get into the routine.

    Once you see the effects you'll never go back!

    Go for it.


  • #51
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    We feed exclusively raw and home cooked. Very occasionally a tin or kibble when circumstances dictate.

    It is more natural and the pleasure is great.

    I use the slow cooker to make stew, with chicken necks for the stock, carrots, apples, greens and a little barley and some bread especially in the winter. No salt and no additives or colourings etc.

    We get 10k packs of chicken necks locally and /or butcher scraps. Or part of a raw chicken carcass.

    Both dogs have a stable weight and are happy on this.

    We had a lot of trouble with one of the cats with both dry and tinned cat food. Severe urinary issues made worse by the special diet the vet sold us.

    The cats too thrive on raw chicken necks.


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