BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

xper · 10-08-2018 12:38am

AlanG wrote: »

It would be interesting to see how they have generated the figures for present journey times. For my area of blanch the distance you can currently cover in 30 minutes seems way to low unless they assume people leave randomly to stand at bus stops and therefore could be waiting 30 minutes at midday - in reality most people leave when they know a bus is due. .....

The methodology, as re-posted above from their FAQ, is in fact the realistic way of estimating total travel time. When you say people won't leave until a bus is due (especially with RTPI available), that waiting time shouldn't be ignored, it is a genuine delay in getting to your destination from the moment you are prepared to travel. It also reveals the benefit of increasing frequency on a route, even if you change nothing else.

That said, I do think the the travel times are a little pessimistic for off-peak travel, not unlike Google Maps, but there's no great harm in that especially since the main point is to compare before and after with the same methodology applied to both.

xper · 10-08-2018 12:45am

In other news, I see that a concerted advertising 'How about that?' advertising campaign encouraging responses to the public consultation has become very prominent this week both online and at bus shelters which is welcome.

L1011 · 10-08-2018 7:35am

Bambi wrote: »

And I posted this about a hundred pages back, you'd swear I had a crystal ball for this whole project.

It's not really a random survey when you're just sticking a questionnaire out there for anyone to answer. That's why polling companies exist and even then they still get it completely wrong.

It was done via RedC. I was one of those polled

r93kaey5p2izun · 10-08-2018 7:58am

L1011 wrote: »

It was done via RedC. I was one of those polled

Was it? I remember doing the survey and afair I just followed a link posted up here.

CatInABox · 10-08-2018 9:16am

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

Was it? I remember doing the survey and afair I just followed a link posted up here.

It was a combination of online and paper polling. I don't know the split between online and paper.

ThunbergsAreGo · 10-08-2018 10:34am

davetherave wrote: »

https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1238/chapter6initialpublicconsultation.pdf

12,769 responses to the initial survey

4. Willingness to Interchange
The survey asked how people feel about three statements:

• “We can ask people to change vehicles (buses or trains) once during a trip, if those people reach their destination sooner.” 81% agreed.
• “We can ask people to change vehicles once during a trip, if that creates a network that helps more people reach more destinations sooner.” 80% agreed.
• “We can ask people to change vehicles once during a trip, if it helps make the network simple enough that people can remember it.” 68% agreed.

Key part is in bold

People wont mind changing buses IF it gets them there sooner

I think many people just lack the confidence that that will happen or in the case where direct or express buses are being lost know already that this will either add onto their journey time, or as seems to be the aim in some areas cause them to use other methods of transport

AlanG · 10-08-2018 3:11pm

Dardania wrote: »

If you click the More Info, they have this:

[font=arial, sans-serif]How is travel time calculated?[/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif]This tool focuses on how far you could go assuming bus, rail and tram frequencies between 9:00 AM and 3:00 PM on weekdays. Travel times including walking, waiting and time on public transport. Because one may need to travel at any time, the tool assumes waiting time is half of the time between buses. For example, if a bus comes every 20 minutes, the tool assumes you would typically wait 10 minutes.[/font]

Thanks, missed that, while it is probably the fairest way overall it is not totally consistent with how people on lower frequency routes use the service. It basically shows that the benefit of halving of average wait times in Blanchardstown will be cancelled out by a doubling of journey times to the quays- looks like no change on paper but for most frequent users who time their arrival at the bus stop it will massively increase their journey times towards town.

Also it is interesting to note that while earlier versions of the interactive map had the B Spine bypassing the M50 roundabout coming into town the new one has it taking the hospital exit and traveling around the roundabout, probably adding 3-4 minutes but increasing the possibility to serve thousands of homes and also the chances for interchange. Strange that it would be changed before the consultancy is finished.

TheChrisD · 10-08-2018 4:01pm

AlanG wrote: »

Also it is interesting to note that while earlier versions of the interactive map had the B Spine bypassing the M50 roundabout coming into town the new one has it taking the hospital exit and traveling around the roundabout, probably adding 3-4 minutes but increasing the possibility to serve thousands of homes and also the chances for interchange. Strange that it would be changed before the consultancy is finished.

Well, when you think about it it does make a bit of sense, seeing as the spine going towards Blanch has to take the M50 roundabout because that's literally the way the roads work around there - so it will allow an interchange there with passengers from the 261, keeping Clonsilla Road and Blanch Village with a better level of service and a comparably easy interchange in the correct direction.

However, I'm also seeing the B-spine to town not take the fancy bus lane out of the centre by the Crowne Plaza and the roundabout on-ramp nearby; rather it shows going via the Liberty building, across the Snugborough bridge and using the Waterville on-ramp? What's the point of that, that's going to add so much more time being stuck in that traffic versus getting on the N3 quicker

cgcsb · 10-08-2018 4:02pm

The map is selling the better interchange, better orbital connectivity and, crucially, better frequency. It assumes no improvement in bus speeds because the infrastructural improvements are subject to further planning applications. In the 5 years after 2019 passengers can assume dramatic improvement in bus speeds.

Victor · 11-08-2018 10:16am

Qrt wrote: »

Yeah the lack of services around Drimnagh and Crumlin will be pretty bad.

I disagree. To the north is the Luas line, to the south is Spine D. In the middle is route 22.

Needs another local service IMO, or route the D1 down from the hospital down to Suir Road or something (and double yellow line the whole roads)

Moving the proposed 22 from Galtymore Road to Mourne Road might rebalance things.

Access to Camden Street / Dublin 2 is available via route 0.

Muahahaha wrote: »

Can anyone clarify if its the case that under the plan the network changes will come first and the infrastructure later?

Certain changes will have to be done before implementation, e.g. bus stops on roads that currently don't have them and the main interchanges. Additional bus lanes and revisions to bus stops can happen afterwards.

markpb wrote: »

Maybe it's just me but Safari on iPhone *really* doesn't like whatever is on that page! Repeated page load, page resets because of multiple errors and then it crashed Safari completely.

cgcsb wrote: »

I guess it's not mobile friendly as i cant use it at all with android. will have a look at it tomorrow

Frank Grimes wrote: »

It's causing Opera on Windows to crash for me.

CatInABox wrote: »

It takes a while to load in Chrome on Windows too.

MarkY91 wrote: »

Wouldn't load for me on mobile but got it working without issues when you switch your browser to desktop mode.

Dardania wrote: »

Interactive map works fine for me on safari on macOS. No joy on a mobile.

Note that loading the page involve a huge amount of information. Making an enquiry on the page involves a huge number of calculations.

Are these issues ongoing? Have you reported the issues?

Dardania wrote: »

Looking at the map, i can’t seem to see how many interchanges are necessary for each situation eg how far can I get without changing in th before and after situations, in a fixed time. That would be interesting to see

What is the trip and we'll see if we can help.

Victor · 11-08-2018 12:03pm

howiya wrote: »

I can see why they were slow to release the map. 25% increase in journey time.

A large number of maps were previously released. They are here: https://www.busconnects.ie/initiatives/dublin-area-bus-network-redesign-full-report/ under "Isochrones - (Travel Time Maps)".

Are the timings based on best/worst case scenario?

They are based on average timing (including average wait time) during the day.

naughtb4 wrote: »

Also is the journey time from Swords (one of the spines) to town really expected to be 60 minutes??

Note that it includes the average wait time and is based on a middle of the day trip.

cgcsb wrote: »

My pin was very very slightly up on Blackhorse avenue, and moving it less than 10 metres seems to have made a gigantic difference.

Those 10 metres may be the difference between getting a bus or the next one.

Peregrine · 11-08-2018 12:19pm

A lot of the physical infrastructure will be done afterwards but there are things like reallocating lanes, car bans, interchanges etc. that can be done right now and will make a big difference. I got the impression they were keen on improving bus lane enforcement too. The widening of roads, CPOing gardens etc. is a major project that could take years to get through design, planning, tendering and construction.

All time estimates are based on existing infrastructure.

Victor · 11-08-2018 12:53pm

I've had to read over the last 100+ pages and am only catching up now.

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

Is there going to be a capacity increase on the Luas? All express busses that serve Clondalkin are gone, bar 1 morning only departure. Excuse given is a new frequent bus to Red line Luas. Not much use if Luas is jammed like it is most mornings.

Are you saying you can't get on a Luas at Red Cow in the morning? Note that there are more Red Line trams available than are currently in use. Some of them were borrowed for the Green Line when it opened.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I've re-looked at the pictures I uploaded, and 30m difference from the same stop makes a job difference in the thousands...

Those 30 metres may mean missing a bus.

30m is 14s walk at 8kph

8 km/h is an unrealistic speed for 95%+ of the population. I average about 5km/h, I might make 6km/h if in a hurry and motivated. For public transport planning purposes, speeds of 3-4 km/h are used.

TheChrisD wrote: »

However, I'm also seeing the B-spine to town not take the fancy bus lane out of the centre by the Crowne Plaza and the roundabout on-ramp nearby; rather it shows going via the Liberty building, across the Snugborough bridge and using the Waterville on-ramp? What's the point of that, that's going to add so much more time being stuck in that traffic versus getting on the N3 quicker
https://i.imgur.com/lUv2hPh.png

That's not a definitive routing. The software is likely 'operating on a shortest trip between bus stops' basis, without any non-bus-stop way-points set.

Frank Grimes · 11-08-2018 1:01pm

Victor wrote: »

Note that loading the page involve a huge amount of information. Making an enquiy on the page involves a huge number of calculations.

Are these issues ongoing? Have you reported the issues?

I forgot to reply to my own post on this. In my case (I did not do extensive investigation

) I think it's a ram/cpu related issue on the laptop I was trying to load it on, i.e. it's ancient - other browsers on the laptop were having the same problems. The site works fine on my desktop irrespective of the browser.

ED E · 11-08-2018 1:20pm

Peregrine wrote: »

A lot of the physical infrastructure will be done afterwards but there are things like reallocating lanes, car bans, interchanges etc. that can be done right now and will make a big difference. I got the impression they were keen on improving bus lane enforcement too. The widening of roads, CPOing gardens etc. is a major project that could take years to get through design, planning, tendering and construction.

All time estimates are based on existing infrastructure.

Only way most of it can work is with a municipal police force but to start that project on Monday we'd be looking at 2024 to get anywhere. BC is a nice idea but can only be an idea when white paint has a smidgen of meaning.

KD345 · 11-08-2018 3:01pm

Victor wrote: »

I disagree. To the north is the Luas line, to the south is Spine D. In the middle is route 22.

Moving the proposed 22 from Galtymore Road to Mourne Road might rebalance things.

Access to Camden Street / Dublin 2 is available via route 0.

.

The first place the new 22 meets the O is at Heuston Station. It is not acceptable to expect passengers from Drimnagh to travel to Heuston to take a connecting bus to Camden Street.

As a solution I would suggest re-routing the D1 through Drimnagh. This route terminates at Drimnagh Road anyway, so it would just mean turning off At Crumlin College to serve the area and give it a better connection with the O at Dolphins Barn.

Alternatively, you could redirect the new 22 to meet the O earlier, perhaps Rialto.

Either way, they do need to find a solution to the 122 problem. A connection between Drimnagh and Camden/Auinger Street has been in place for decades. Offering no decent alternative is not an option.

Victor · 11-08-2018 3:34pm

KD345 wrote: »

The first place the new 22 meets the O is at Heuston Station. It is not acceptable to expect passengers from Drimnagh to travel to Heuston to take a connecting bus to Camden Street.

But they can use Luas or the D Spine to connect to the O.

Qrt · 11-08-2018 3:38pm

KD345 wrote: »

The first place the new 22 meets the O is at Heuston Station. It is not acceptable to expect passengers from Drimnagh to travel to Heuston to take a connecting bus to Camden Street.

As a solution I would suggest re-routing the D1 through Drimnagh. This route terminates at Drimnagh Road anyway, so it would just mean turning off At Crumlin College to serve the area and give it a better connection with the O at Dolphins Barn.

Alternatively, you could redirect the new 22 to meet the O earlier, perhaps Rialto.

Either way, they do need to find a solution to the 122 problem. A connection between Drimnagh and Camden/Auinger Street has been in place for decades. Offering no decent alternative is not an option.

I'd say have the D1 turn right at the hospital onto Cooley Road, and down to the church on Mourne Rd. I think there's a church there anyway. However, this route could turn into what we've been doing wrong for years.

KD345 · 11-08-2018 4:11pm

Victor wrote: »

But they can use Luas or the D Spine to connect to the O.

That is true, but the overall journey length for someone traveling on the 122 between Drimnagh and Auinger Street will increase quite a bit. The D Spine is a 1km walk from parts of the current 122 route.

I’m also not convinced there will be capacity on the Red Line to deal with all the extra bus passengers proposed.

Stephen15 · 12-08-2018 9:39pm

Jarrett's latest blog posts talk about how he's used to hearing outrage every time he proposes plan for each city and how he's not surprised at the reaction about the plan here in Dublin.

https://humantransit.org/2018/08/why-were-not-alarmed-by-public-outrage-at-network-redesigns.html

dfx- · 13-08-2018 10:00am

Peregrine wrote: »

A lot of the physical infrastructure will be done afterwards but there are things like reallocating lanes, car bans, interchanges etc. that can be done right now and will make a big difference. I got the impression they were keen on improving bus lane enforcement too. The widening of roads, CPOing gardens etc. is a major project that could take years to get through design, planning, tendering and construction.

All time estimates are based on existing infrastructure.

are they advertising a 5 minute frequency or high frequency spines as well as an intricate web of connections across the city with current infrastructure? :eek:

:eek:

cgcsb · 13-08-2018 10:07am

ED E wrote: »

Only way most of it can work is with a municipal police force but to start that project on Monday we'd be looking at 2024 to get anywhere. BC is a nice idea but can only be an idea when white paint has a smidgen of meaning.

Or there's a selection of license plate recognition software packages commercially available for a few grand that can use the existing bus and street cameras. They have this 10 year old technology operating on the bus lanes in Belfast as we speak.

cgcsb · 13-08-2018 10:09am

dfx- wrote: »

are they advertising a 5 minute frequency or high frequency spines as well as an intricate web of connections across the city with current infrastructure? :eek:

:eek:

With a car free quays, car free George's st, 2 way buses on Parliament street and a pedestrian college green, sure why not. There'll be delays but it'll operate much smoother than the current set up.

sharper · 13-08-2018 10:14am

dfx- wrote: »

are they advertising a 5 minute frequency or high frequency spines as well as an intricate web of connections across the city with current infrastructure? :eek:

Based on midday so not when traffic is at its peak.

I don't see how busconnects can possibly be implemented prior to infrastructure. The interconnects need to be in place and the vast majority of public opinion will be generated from peak travel times.

I'm pretty sure almost everyone's travel time is going to increase (which of course will be bad) and some will go from direct connection to waiting at unsuitable locations as well.

I'm certain there are improvements which they need to do in any event and won't be wasted. They should be doing those right now.

Dyr · 13-08-2018 10:24am

Stephen15 wrote: »

Jarrett's latest blog posts talk about how he's used to hearing outrage every time he proposes plan for each city and how he's not surprised at the reaction about the plan here in Dublin.

https://humantransit.org/2018/08/why-were-not-alarmed-by-public-outrage-at-network-redesigns.html

It's funny that he's heard it all before when listening does not appear to be one of his strong points.

What would be more interesting is how much of the outrage remains after Jarret has packed his bags and moves onto the next rube

sharper · 13-08-2018 10:26am

Bambi wrote: »

It's funny that he's heard it all before when listening does not appear to be one of his strong points.

He's engaged people individually and route by route on twitter. How much better than that can someone listen?

MJohnston · 13-08-2018 11:00am

Bambi wrote: »

It's funny that he's heard it all before when listening does not appear to be one of his strong points.

What would be more interesting is how much of the outrage remains after Jarret has packed his bags and moves onto the next rube

Would you give it a rest already? You've made no useful contribution to this thread, and every time someone challenges you on your bullsh!t you disappear for a few days and wait for the next opportunity to have a wee whine.

Peregrine · 13-08-2018 11:42am

sharper wrote: »

He's engaged people individually and route by route on twitter. How much better than that can someone listen?

You're quoting someone who has referenced Jarett Walker personally in the majority of his posts about BusConnects over the last three weeks. While the rest of us reference his name for something meaningful such as referencing something he said, Bambi seems to be conducting some sort of crusade against the man. Going as far as:

- Gratuitously naming in every other post (sometimes as 'Sir Jarret of Walker')
- Calling him a diva
- Saying he he had no idea the level of resistance he would face in Dublin when JW himself has said that the response in Dublin is no different to most cities
- Saying he doesn't listen when he has personally responded in an informative and collected manner to everyone who engaged with him on Twitter and in a level we've never seen before in public consultations

to name a few off the top of my head.

Posts such as the above contain no roots in reason or logic and he has put forward zero solutions himself while dismissing best practise and shouting insults at professionals.

I suggest you move on because you're wasting your time. His post is indefensible against your response.

Dyr · 13-08-2018 11:56am

Peregrine wrote: »

Y
Posts such as the above contain no roots in reason or logic and he has put forward zero solutions himself while dismissing best practise and shouting insults at professionals.

It's customary to acknowledge that criticism is valid before you throw your hands up and cry "well, what's your solution?". I'll wait with baited breath.

You could also point out that I was one of the few to call the nonsense of drilling massive holes in a GAA club for what it was and predict it would not happen, to all round pillory from our regulars. Lo and behold, I was right. Didn't need to be a genius to spot it, that others didn't speaks volume to the dangers of group think

I was also right about the public reaction and short comings of the NTA's current strategy again to all round declamation. Again, some of us live in the real world.

dfx- · 13-08-2018 12:23pm

sharper wrote: »

Based on midday so not when traffic is at its peak.

I don't see how busconnects can possibly be implemented prior to infrastructure. The interconnects need to be in place and the vast majority of public opinion will be generated from peak travel times.

I'm pretty sure almost everyone's travel time is going to increase (which of course will be bad) and some will go from direct connection to waiting at unsuitable locations as well.

I'm certain there are improvements which they need to do in any event and won't be wasted. They should be doing those right now.

there would be buses strewn across the place all over at that sort of high frequency if it was implemented tomorrow.

Restrictions on street parking, bus priority and a flat fare is a minimum to have in place before you introduce any of this.

BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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