Passport Renewal Witnesses

josip · 02-02-2019 1:17pm #1

Who decides what jobs/professions are trustworthy to witness passport application signatures?

I suppose the intention is to make it easier to find someone convenient to witness the signature, but why for example are bank managers considered more trustworthy than farmers?

Marcusm · 02-02-2019 1:24pm

They would be expected to have training on probity and have a full understanding of the consequences of a false action, ie being fired and never capable of being rehired.

Paddy Cow · 02-02-2019 1:28pm

"Member of the clergy". Do we trust them now?

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-02-2019 1:29pm

No solicitor?

I suppose notary public would be a solicitor.

Yamanoto · 02-02-2019 1:33pm

Paddy Cow wrote: »

"Member of the clergy". Do we trust them now?

Maybe arguably more so than Guards, Medical Doctors and Elected Representatives, all of whom also feature in the list above.

mikhail · 02-02-2019 1:36pm

Marcusm wrote: »

They would be expected to have training on probity and have a full understanding of the consequences of a false action, ie being fired and never capable of being rehired.

My job is on that list. I have never been trained in probity. It's kind of insulting to imply that those people are remotely more honest or upright on average than a chippie or a shopkeeper.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-02-2019 1:38pm

How many people would use a nurse anyway?

alchemist33 · 02-02-2019 1:40pm

At least some of them are governed by regulatory bodies who would give sanctions if they falsified information.

mikhail · 02-02-2019 1:44pm

alchemist33 wrote: »

At least some of them are governed by regulatory bodies who would give sanctions if they falsified information.

Most of them are also covered by unions that would be all over a sniff of a sanction.

PhoenixParker · 02-02-2019 1:44pm

They're registered with public organisations and have undergone some sort of registration process. The passport office therefore has an independent route to get their details and verify them.

They are also jobs with a public profile and character expectations where being found to have witnessed something untrue could materially impact their career.

The list also covers the people in a community who would know many members of the community meaning that most people should be able to.find someone to vouch for them.

Atoms for Peace · 02-02-2019 1:46pm

It's like a list of people I wouldn't trust.

borderlinemeath · 02-02-2019 1:50pm

I've just renewed my daughters passport and got the form filled out by her preschool teacher. The view I took was that it was somebody in a position of responsibility who would actually know that you were related to that child. I actually considered going into my vets as she knows us well and the opening hours were handier for both of us.

If there was an issue with the legality of the passport then there would be consequences for the person that filled out the form, the bank may issue a manager with a warning or disciplinary action, whereas a farmer is self employed and doesn't technically have to answer to anybody.

bodhrandude · 02-02-2019 1:57pm

How come 'man/woman in the street, busker, hippy, drug dealer' are not in that list.

dxhound2005 · 02-02-2019 1:58pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

No solicitor?

I suppose notary public would be a solicitor.

A lawyer could be a solicitor?

Graces7 · 02-02-2019 2:02pm

I have always called into my bank. Never a problem.

dxhound2005 · 02-02-2019 2:02pm

If it is for an adult do it online. Does not need to be witnessed.

The Tetrarch · 02-02-2019 2:04pm

Speech Therapist?
I'm retired, but my former job is on that list.
It is a crazy list. Did they have a session in a government department asking people to shout out the first job that comes into your head?

dxhound2005 · 02-02-2019 2:06pm

The UK list is even more bizarre.

https://www.gov.uk/countersigning-passport-applications/accepted-occupations-for-countersignatories

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-02-2019 2:06pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If it is for an adult do it online. Does not need to be witnessed.

Not true of all cases and passports.

NSAman · 02-02-2019 2:06pm

John Murphy
*****************
Mullingar
Co. Westmeath

This, apparently is an actual letter received by the Irish Passport
Office.

Dear Sirs,

I'm in the process of renewing my passport, and I am losing the will to live. How is it that Sky Television has my address and telephone number and knows that I bought a ****ing satellite dish from them back in 1995, and yet, the Government is still asking me where I was ****ing born and on what date.

For **** sake, do you guys do this by hand? My birth date you have
on my pension book, and it is on all the income tax forms I've filed
for the past 30 years. It is on my PPS card, my driving
license, my car insurance, on the last eight ****ing passports I've had,
before being allowed off the plane over the last 50 years, and all
those insufferable census forms.

Would somebody please take note, once and for all, that my mother's
name is Mary Anne, my father's name is Robert and I'd be absolutely ****ing astounded if that ever changed between now and when I die!!!!!!

I apologise, because I'm really pissed off this morning. Between you an' me, I've had enough of this ****! You send back the application form to my house, then you ask me for my ****ing address!!!!

What the **** is going on? Do you have a bunch of neanderthal arseholes working there? Look at my ****ing picture. Do I look like Bin Laden? I just want to go and park my arse on some nice sandy beach somewhere and would someone please tell me, why would you give a **** whether I plan on visiting a farm in the next 15 days?
Well, I have to sign off now, because I have to go to the other end of the ****ing country to get another ****ing copy of my birth certificate, to the
tune of €30. Would it be so complicated to have all the services in the
same spot to assist in the issuance of a new passport the same day??
Nooooooooooooo, that'd be too ****ing easy and maybe make sense. You'd rather have us running all over the ****in' place like chickens with our heads cut off, then have to find some arsehole to confirm that it's really me on the damn picture - you know, the one where we're not
allowed to smile?! (bureaucratic ****in' morons) Hey, do you know why
we couldn't smile if we wanted to? Because we're totally hacked off!

Signed

An Irate Citizen.

P.S. Remember what I said above about the picture and getting someone to confirm that it's me? Well, my family has been in this country since 1776 .......... I have served in the military for something over 30 years and have had full security clearances over 25 of those years enabling me to undertake highly secretive work all over the world and the here in Ireland
......... However, I have to get someone 'important' to verify who I am
- you know, someone like my doctor - WHO WAS BORN AND RAISED IN ****ING PAKISTAN !

dxhound2005 · 02-02-2019 2:09pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Not true of all cases and passports.

There are no exceptions listed on the website for any category of adult.

https://www.dfa.ie/passports-citizenship/top-passport-questions/how-to-get-your-application-witnessed/

dxhound2005 · 02-02-2019 2:11pm

NSAman wrote: »

John Murphy
*****************
Mullingar
Co. Westmeath

This, apparently is an actual letter received by the Irish Passport
Office.

It's not. Versions of that have been circulating for years.

Wheety · 02-02-2019 2:13pm

Yeah, apparently.

Paddy Cow · 02-02-2019 2:15pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It's not. Versions of that have been circulating for years.

Still a quality rant though.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-02-2019 2:15pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There are no exceptions listed on the website for any category of adult.

https://www.dfa.ie/passports-citizenship/top-passport-questions/how-to-get-your-application-witnessed/

As you go through the process it says

“

If your passport is expired for more than 5 years, you cannot apply online.

The passport book number must have 2 letters followed by 7 numbers. The first letter must be 'P' or 'L'. For example 'PT' or 'LB'. Older passports with one letter cannot be used “

So people need to transition to a Pn or Ln if they don’t have one. I’ve had to do that.

godtabh · 02-02-2019 2:19pm

Chartered engineer? thats a new one for me

Mrs OBumble · 02-02-2019 4:15pm

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Speech Therapist?
I'm retired, but my former job is on that list.
It is a crazy list. Did they have a session in a government department asking people to shout out the first job that comes into your head?

They are all jobs that have some kind of registration process, giving an independent list that can be checked against.

Anyone can call themselves an engineer, it's not a restricted title. But chartered engineer is.

josip · 02-02-2019 4:21pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

They are all jobs that have some kind of registration process, giving an independent list that can be checked against.

Anyone can call themselves an engineer, it's not a restricted title. But chartered engineer is.

So why aren't undertakers, pilots, estate agents, HGV drivers, tennis coaches, swimming instructors on the list?

02-02-2019 4:42pm

Needed an emergency passport living in London, went to multiple post offices to try and get a witness after losing my passport a week before my flight(my own fault of course) one of the most stressful days of my life.

Most of them wouldn't stamp an Irish passport form, finally managed to get one from an office in the local area. Totally outdated list imo

Trigger Happy · 02-02-2019 4:48pm

The local Garda station would not witness when I was getting the kids passport renewed a few weeks ago as we were not known to them.

The crèche manager did but told us it’s a bit hit and miss as sometimes the pp office don’t accept her, sometimes they do, despite her occupation listed.

On the other side of the coin though, the online renewal for an adults passport is a pleasure... so easy and quick.

dxhound2005 · 02-02-2019 4:51pm

Kalico92 wrote: »

Needed an emergency passport living in London, went to multiple post offices to try and get a witness after losing my passport a week before my flight(my own fault of course) one of the most stressful days of my life.

Most of them wouldn't stamp an Irish passport form, finally managed to get one from an office in the local area. Totally outdated list imo

What would you take away and what would you add?

my3cents · 02-02-2019 4:58pm

Trigger Happy wrote: »

The local Garda station would not witness when I was getting the kids passport renewed a few weeks ago as we were not known to them.

The crèche manager did but told us it’s a bit hit and miss as sometimes the pp office don’t accept her, sometimes they do, despite her occupation listed.

On the other side of the coin though, the online renewal for an adults passport is a pleasure... so easy and quick.

I think thats the point of the list of professionals, there should be someone on that list that knows who you are and if contacted could say if the person whose passport is being renewed is actually the person it should be.

josip · 02-02-2019 5:11pm

Trigger Happy wrote: »

The local Garda station would not witness when I was getting the kids passport renewed a few weeks ago as we were not known to them.

The crèche manager did but told us it’s a bit hit and miss as sometimes the pp office don’t accept her, sometimes they do, despite her occupation listed.

On the other side of the coin though, the online renewal for an adults passport is a pleasure... so easy and quick.

I didn't think your local Garda station could refuse you?
I've been refused in a Garda Station once, because although it was the closest, it didn't cover where I live.
"Being known to the Gardai" is usually not a positive thing.

my3cents · 02-02-2019 5:12pm

josip wrote: »

I didn't think your local Garda station could refuse you?
I've been refused in a Garda Station once, because although it was the closest, it didn't cover where I live.
"Being known to the Gardai" is usually not a positive thing.

But the point i think is that the witness is supposed to know you.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-02-2019 5:14pm

my3cents wrote: »

But the point i think is that the witness is supposed to know you.

No. They’re just verifying the photo is you. That’s all.

Trigger Happy · 02-02-2019 5:15pm

josip wrote: »

I didn't think your local Garda station could refuse you?
I've been refused in a Garda Station once, because although it was the closest, it didn't cover where I live.
"Being known to the Gardai" is usually not a positive thing.

I never had an issue before with getting them to witness stuff. And we rolled up with both our and the kids current passports etc...but no go!
Maybe as 3cents said, they need to know you and are more struck these days.

borderlinemeath · 02-02-2019 5:16pm

Trigger Happy wrote: »

The local Garda station would not witness when I was getting the kids passport renewed a few weeks ago as we were not known to them.

The crèche manager did but told us it’s a bit hit and miss as sometimes the pp office don’t accept her, sometimes they do, despite her occupation listed.

On the other side of the coin though, the online renewal for an adults passport is a pleasure... so easy and quick.

I was the first to ask the staff in my kids preschool, they had never seen the form prior to me bringing it in. No problems with it, sent it off and got the passport in the post about 2 weeks later.

MrMusician18 · 02-02-2019 5:19pm

The list covers those who are registered professionals. A false statement by a registered professional will see them professionally sanctioned by the registration body and could cost them their career

my3cents · 02-02-2019 5:20pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

No. They’re just verifying the photo is you. That’s all.

But if they don't know you by name then verifying that the photo is the you means nothing because you could be applying for a passport in another name.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-02-2019 5:21pm

my3cents wrote: »

But if they don't know you by name then verifying that the photo is the you means nothing because you could be applying for a passport in another name.

They also stamp the registration form.

Edit:

Here’s the procedure.

A Garda at your local Garda station will witness your passport application form; as long as they are satisfied as to your identity and that your four photos are a true likeness of you. Make sure you bring photo identification with you and be aware that the Garda may ask you for more proof of identification.

You must:

• Sign Section 8 of the form in the presence of the Garda. Applicants aged seven or over must sign this part of the form themselves.

The Garda must:

• Complete Section 9 of the form
• Write the form number (found on Section 9 of the application) on the back of two of your four photos
• Sign and stamp the back of those two photos

Remember…

Your application form is only valid for six months from the date your witness signs it.

Bannasidhe · 02-02-2019 5:25pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

They are all jobs that have some kind of registration process, giving an independent list that can be checked against.

Anyone can call themselves an engineer, it's not a restricted title. But chartered engineer is.

My job is on that list - if I went through some registration process resulting in my name being on an independent. checkable, list it's news to me.

Bannasidhe · 02-02-2019 5:31pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The list covers those who are registered professionals. A false statement by a registered professional will see them professionally sanctioned by the registration body and could cost them their career

I'm a what now?!?!

Where the hell can I see this list I am apparently listed on?
How can a body I never registered with sanction me??

My job is definitely on that list.

my3cents · 02-02-2019 5:32pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

They also stamp the registration form.

Edit:

Here’s the procedure.

A Garda at your local Garda station will witness your passport application form; as long as they are satisfied as to your identity and that your four photos are a true likeness of you. Make sure you bring photo identification with you and be aware that the Garda may ask you for more proof of identification.

You must:

• Sign Section 8 of the form in the presence of the Garda. Applicants aged seven or over must sign this part of the form themselves.

The Garda must:

• Complete Section 9 of the form
• Write the form number (found on Section 9 of the application) on the back of two of your four photos
• Sign and stamp the back of those two photos

Remember…

Your application form is only valid for six months from the date your witness signs it.

The Garda if they can be bothered (I was turned away because they didn't know me) still has to be satisfied that the name of the person is correct. Far easier for someone to do that if they know you.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-02-2019 5:33pm

my3cents wrote: »

The Garda if they can be bothered (I was turned away because they didn't know me) still has to be satisfied that the name of the person is correct. Far easier for someone to do that if they know you.

You’re not going to give up o this are you? If you’re renewing you will have the old passport, if not or it’s lost then a birth cert should do. Nowhere in the rules does it say the person should be known to you. Everybody would use a nurse or vet if that was the case. In fact while the list of professions is long the only example given for a paper renewal is the gardai, which is probably why most people do that.

They don’t have to know you. Of course they may be using that to get out of what should be an obligation. Having to be known to the cops is a bit unfair on law abiding citizens who live away from where they grew up, or even where they grew up in urban areas.

my3cents · 02-02-2019 5:44pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

You’re not going to give up o this are you? If you’re renewing you will have the old passport, if not or it’s lost then a birth cert should do.

They don’t have to know you. Of course they may be using that to get out of what should be an obligation. Having to be known to the cops is a bit unfair on law abiding citizens who live away from where they grew up.

It was about 8 years ago I last renewed my passport and the Garda wouldn't do any of that for me even though I had my old passport and a mass of documents proving who I was including others with my photograph.

Daisy78 · 02-02-2019 6:14pm

godtabh wrote: »

Chartered engineer? thats a new one for me

And “chartered” too. Not just the fella that comes to fix your washing machine or install your broadband.

RobbieMD · 02-02-2019 7:00pm

josip wrote: »

I didn't think your local Garda station could refuse you?
I've been refused in a Garda Station once, because although it was the closest, it didn't cover where I live.
"Being known to the Gardai" is usually not a positive thing.

For the section 7 of the form, consent of parents or guardians, then of course the Garda could refuse. The note to the witness states “must be personally known” to the witness. If they’re not personally known to the Garda then the Garda is correct to not sign it.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-02-2019 7:02pm

my3cents wrote: »

It was about 8 years ago I last renewed my passport and the Garda wouldn't do any of that for me even though I had my old passport and a mass of documents proving who I was including others with my photograph.

That’s bad news as my oh needs to renew. Because of this thread I megtined it and she realised it. What did you have to do?

my3cents · 02-02-2019 7:23pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

That’s bad news as my oh needs to renew. Because of this thread I megtined it and she realised it. What did you have to do?

I went to my doctor who charged me a tenner for the privilege :rolleyes:

However I've had to get other documents verified recently (probate and power of attorney) and now use my neighbor who is a company solicitor they aren't actually registered as a solicitor anymore but anyone looking them up can find them as a company in house solicitor on line and everything has gone through OK so far.

josip · 02-02-2019 7:35pm

my3cents wrote: »

I went to my doctor who charged me a tenner for the privilege :rolleyes:

However I've had to get other documents verified recently (probate and power of attorney) and now use my neighbor who is a company solicitor they aren't actually registered as a solicitor anymore but anyone looking them up can find them as a company in house solicitor on line and everything has gone through OK so far.

A Peace Commissioner would provide the service for free.
The Dept of Justice maintain that list, however it may not be up to date. ??
Your local Garda Station can give you the name of one.
You'll probably be just as unknown to the Peace Commissioner as to the Guard you're talking to, but what the hey, that's the system.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/civil_law/peace_commissioners.html

Pataman · 03-02-2019 11:39am

Daisy78 wrote: »

And “chartered” too. Not just the fella that comes to fix your washing machine or install your broadband.

He wouldn't be an engineer anyway, just a technician.

Passport Renewal Witnesses

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