113 Medical Negligence Cases To Cost the State €1.4 Billion

SafeSurfer · 08-11-2018 4:50pm #1

This and an average of €20,000 for whiplash, half a million to somebody for falling off a Luas while Luas surfing. We are all paying for the massive compensation payments, both for actual injury and “emotional” injury through higher costs for every product and service.

The untouchable legal profession remains unreformed and self regulated even after recommendations going back decades and scathing criticism of exorbitant legal costs from the Troika.

I have every sympathy for those who have suffered through accident or medical negligence but I believe a large percentage of compensation moneys paid out are due to excessive legal fees and fraudulent claims.

Allinall · 08-11-2018 4:55pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

This and an average of €20,000 for whiplash, half a million to somebody for falling off a Luas while Luas surfing. We are all paying for the massive compensation payments, both for actual injury and “emotional” injury through higher costs for every product and service.

The untouchable legal profession remains unreformed and self regulated even after recommendations going back decades and scathing criticism of exorbitant legal costs from the Troika.

I have every sympathy for those who have suffered through accident or medical negligence but I believe a large percentage of compensation moneys paid out are due to excessive legal fees and fraudulent claims.

That’s an average of €123.9 million per case.

I call bs

kneemos · 08-11-2018 5:00pm

http://www.thejournal.ie/113-cases-medical-negligence-state-4329796-Nov2018/?amp=1

3000 cases in all apparently totalling 2.4 billion.

Deebles McBeebles · 08-11-2018 5:02pm

Half a million for Luas surfing eh? Seems like a valid career choice all of a sudden.

suicide_circus · 08-11-2018 5:07pm

if people don't want to subject themselves to the possibility of human errors, they could just avoid hospitals

SafeSurfer · 08-11-2018 5:08pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

if people don't want to subject themselves to the possibility of human errors, they could just avoid hospitals

I suppose if people don’t want to subject themselves to the possibility of stupid comments they could avoid Boards.

facehugger99 · 08-11-2018 5:31pm

If you want a good laugh, have a look at the recommded payouts for injuries in the Book of Quantum - https://www.piab.ie/eng/forms-guidelines/Book-of-Quantum.pdf

€33,500 for a "minor" sprain to the upper arm.

A moderate fracture to the humerus with full recovery? Here's €64,500.

Did you have an allergic reaction which caused some minor itching to your hand? Here's €14,000 for your troubles.

Next time your wondering why your motor premium is so high you can find all the answers in here.

LirW · 08-11-2018 5:40pm

I wonder if anyone here ever read up about some medical negligence cases? The stuff is often proper nightmare fuel.

I read for example about a woman who was stitched back together imporperly after birth and the scarring was so bad that she was in constant pain, couldn't be intimate anymore with her partner and the hospital told her off and refused to take any responsibility.
It took years to resolve her case and the payout was a few hundred k, but she first got her injury fixed with that money.

I understand the frustration that people with next to nothing get big payouts bit I feel that the vast majority of medical negligence cases are legit.

YFlyer · 08-11-2018 5:52pm

Allinall wrote: »

That’s an average of €123.9 million per case.

I call bs

British billion is not used anymore.

Allinall · 08-11-2018 5:57pm

YFlyer wrote: »

British billion is not used anymore.[/quote

Used €1,400 Million in calculation

TallGlass · 08-11-2018 6:01pm

5k to some lad in prison that went on hunger strike as the prison didn't take him seriously or his complaints seriously. Complaints in prison, keyword. Prison. Not holiday camp. 5k for his distress. More compo than his victim got, I would bet.

Will I Am Not · 08-11-2018 6:06pm

Not surprising if the reports of the high number of underqualified consultants in our hospitals are true.

Samuel T. Cogley · 08-11-2018 6:08pm

TallGlass wrote: »

5k to some lad in prison that went on hunger strike as the prison didn't take him seriously or his complaints seriously. Complaints in prison, keyword. Prison. Not holiday camp. 5k for his distress. More compo than his victim got, I would bet.

Given what happened in Scotland over prison conditions I'm amazed we've not seen a huge number of claims from prisoners here, probably one of the reasons why such short sentances are being handed out in an effort to reduce over crowding and remove people from some of the older blocks that need refurbishment.

We desperately need a new prison yet it's never talked about in the media (AFAIK).

kneemos · 08-11-2018 6:35pm

YFlyer wrote: »

British billion is not used anymore.

A thousand million used to be a billion. Nine zeros.

Samuel T. Cogley · 08-11-2018 6:36pm

Brit Billion was a million, million. Twelve zeros.

Just waiting for the two zeros jokes about us talking about this.

RobbingBandit · 08-11-2018 6:40pm

I'm going through a very difficult health journey at the moment which on the outside looking in is major malpractice and negligence on several sides however from my point of view I'd rather keep my foot/leg/ability to walk than sue the ****e out of ignorant blaise doctors and a ****e health system.

What use is money if it costs you you're quality of life due to the system not willing or being able to listen to you, sometimes I think throwing money at these cases makes the wheel keep turning but when you are faced with a life altering situation that has to be done by the books then you are ****ed as it's their way or no way.

kneemos · 08-11-2018 6:47pm

You hear about the odd case and think we'll sometimes mistakes get made. Never imagined there could be thousands of cases in the pipeline.

YFlyer · 08-11-2018 7:04pm

Allinall wrote: »

YFlyer wrote: »

British billion is not used anymore.[/quote

Used €1,400 Million in calculation

You're out by 10 times.

YFlyer · 08-11-2018 7:05pm

kneemos wrote: »

A thousand million used to be a billion. Nine zeros.

Still is.

SEPT 23 1989 · 08-11-2018 7:15pm

Have you seen some of the states kids were left in for life over medical fcuk ups?

I don't begrudge their parents a cent

Grayson · 08-11-2018 7:16pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

This and an average of €20,000 for whiplash, half a million to somebody for falling off a Luas while Luas surfing. We are all paying for the massive compensation payments, both for actual injury and “emotional” injury through higher costs for every product and service.

The untouchable legal profession remains unreformed and self regulated even after recommendations going back decades and scathing criticism of exorbitant legal costs from the Troika.

I have every sympathy for those who have suffered through accident or medical negligence but I believe a large percentage of compensation moneys paid out are due to excessive legal fees and fraudulent claims.

So you're complaining about compensation given to the victims of medical negligence and complaining about lawyers, but not complaining about the health service? And you're doing all of that without actually showing us the reason those people were awarded over a million each.

Is this all in your head?

gctest50 · 08-11-2018 7:25pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

........

I have every sympathy for those who have suffered through accident or medical negligence but I believe a large percentage of compensation moneys paid out are due to excessive legal fees and fraudulent claims.

https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/junior-doctor-suspended-after-claims-he-was-a-danger-to-patients-is-not-an-isolated-case-judge-37503674.html.

The judgment noted the doctor never previously worked in any paid capacity in any other hospital anywhere and two consultants said he did not meet the "most basic" standards of competence of doctors practising "at this very junior level".

Some of his junior colleagues here said they witnessed "wild" clinical assessments by him, made without taking any history or examining a patient.

marthabarry · 08-11-2018 7:26pm

Some claims are warranted and well deserved but some are ridiculous. Personal responsibility is gone out the window - someone else is always to blame!

Wesser · 08-11-2018 7:29pm

Personal injury is different to medical negligence.

Medical indemnity insurance now so expensive that unaffordable my most doctors who are not public employees.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 08-11-2018 7:30pm

Grayson wrote: »

So you're complaining about compensation given to the victims of medical negligence and complaining about lawyers, but not complaining about the health service? And you're doing all of that without actually showing us the reason those people were awarded over a million each.

Is this all in your head?

It’s a cost to the state caused by incompetence, but what’s happening to the incompetent?

Noveight · 08-11-2018 7:30pm

To pay out half a million to a woman who admitted liability was significant.

It almost says "we were at fault for not protecting you from yourself."

Grayson · 08-11-2018 7:32pm

gctest50 wrote: »

https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/junior-doctor-suspended-after-claims-he-was-a-danger-to-patients-is-not-an-isolated-case-judge-37503674.html.

The judgment noted the doctor never previously worked in any paid capacity in any other hospital anywhere and two consultants said he did not meet the "most basic" standards of competence of doctors practising "at this very junior level".

Some of his junior colleagues here said they witnessed "wild" clinical assessments by him, made without taking any history or examining a patient.

I have a relative who's a doctor in a hospital and has to testify at cases like that. He's basically testified against doctors and even against the HSE for avoidable mistakes.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 08-11-2018 7:33pm

Grayson wrote: »

I have a relative who's a doctor in a hospital and has to testify at cases like that. He's basically testified against doctors and even against the HSE for avoidable mistakes.

How do they get hired? Is there any probation? Why even need a court case?

erica74 · 08-11-2018 7:48pm

I think it's a bit unfair to lump medical negligence in with mickey mouse whiplash claims (not all whiplash claims are mickey mouse) and that muppet who fell off the luas.

SafeSurfer · 08-11-2018 7:49pm

Grayson wrote: »

So you're complaining about compensation given to the victims of medical negligence and complaining about lawyers, but not complaining about the health service? And you're doing all of that without actually showing us the reason those people were awarded over a million each.

Is this all in your head?

Did you read my post? I said I sympathize with those who suffered as a result of medical negligence or injury. However the amount of the claims is exaggerated because of excessive legal costs.

For example in the army deafness claims over a third of the money paid out was in legal fees, despite them being pretty much copy and paste cases. I think that is excessive.
Also many solicitors were found to have double charged on their fees, yet no action was ever taken.

Grayson · 09-11-2018 12:42am

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Did you read my post? I said I sympathize with those who suffered as a result of medical negligence or injury. However the amount of the claims is exaggerated because of excessive legal costs.

For example in the army deafness claims over a third of the money paid out was in legal fees, despite them being pretty much copy and paste cases. I think that is excessive.
Also many solicitors were found to have double charged on their fees, yet no action was ever taken.

Have you gone through the cases that caused all the expense and actually come to that conclusion? Because if not, you're just someone with no evidence and an axe to grind. You'll actually pick the worse cases, the cases that the state paid the most on and say that there's a problem with the legal profession rather than with what caused those people to make a claim in the first place. The fact that you focused on the legal fees and even referenced the girl on the Luas shows that you don't give a damn about the people who had to make malpractice claims.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

How do they get hired? Is there any probation? Why even need a court case?

It's not always court cases. Some are infront of the medical review panel (I can't remember what it's called).

All you have to do to be hired as a doctor is be a doctor. It doesn't mean they're all good. Most are and the Irish Medical Council take the bad ones seriously. It's the reason that they have these reviews and can remove a license to practice. Unfortunately they have to make a mistake for it to get that far.

It's not always bad doctors though. There's bad practice by good doctors. In the HIQA investigation into Savita's death they found over 20 points of failure. Some of those were just bad procedures that the staff followed. What made it worse was that the same situation had happened a few years beforehand in another hospital. The HSE brought in changes to prevent it happening again....in that hospital. They never implementation the changes elsewhere.

Then there's the state of the HSE. It's relatively good overall but there's a severe lack of funding in certain areas. A&E is the most obvious. Lack of staff & beds cause accidents.

sdanseo · 09-11-2018 12:45am

The sad thing is, there's an entire board (PIAB mentioned above) set up to apparently independently assess the financial need of "victims" in these cases.

The only sensible conclusion is that they're on commission or something.

SafeSurfer · 09-11-2018 12:55am

Grayson wrote: »

Have you gone through the cases that caused all the expense and actually come to that conclusion? Because if not, you're just someone with no evidence and an axe to grind. You'll actually pick the worse cases, the cases that the state paid the most on and say that there's a problem with the legal profession rather than with what caused those people to make a claim in the first place. The fact that you focused on the legal fees and even referenced the girl on the Luas shows that you don't give a damn about the people who had to make malpractice claims.

It's not always court cases. Some are infront of the medical review panel (I can't remember what it's called).

All you have to do to be hired as a doctor is be a doctor. It doesn't mean they're all good. Most are and the Irish Medical Council take the bad ones seriously. It's the reason that they have these reviews and can remove a license to practice. Unfortunately they have to make a mistake for it to get that far.

It's not always bad doctors though. There's bad practice by good doctors. In the HIQA investigation into Savita's death they found over 20 points of failure. Some of those were just bad procedures that the staff followed. What made it worse was that the same situation had happened a few years beforehand in another hospital. The HSE brought in changes to prevent it happening again....in that hospital. They never implementation the changes elsewhere.

Then there's the state of the HSE. It's relatively good overall but there's a severe lack of funding in certain areas. A&E is the most obvious. Lack of staff & beds cause accidents.

Do you think it is reasonable for, for example an award given to a child, disabled through medical negligence at birth, to have up to one third of their award settlement retained by their legal team?

Graces7 · 09-11-2018 8:05am

kneem os wrote: »

You hear about the odd case and think we'll sometimes mistakes get made. Never imagined there could be thousands of cases in the pipeline.

You need to watch the news. Nearly every day now. A baby died as they "omitted" to connect the oxygen monitor during surgery. Another baby was left with half a dressing pack in his throat and nearly died weeks later.

A disabled man was blinded when they removed his shunt when it became infected and "omitted" to replace it.. It had been removing fluid when then built up and destroyed the optic nerve.

A man died as a local GP said the x ray was clear of pneumonia... died of pneumonia the day after.

The list is endless

Graces7 · 09-11-2018 8:06am

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Do you think it is reasonable for, for example an award given to a child, disabled through medical negligence at birth, to have up to one third of their award settlement retained by their legal team?

Good legal care which is needed in medical cases, costs. A good barrister can ask E1000 an hour.

Graces7 · 09-11-2018 8:07am

sdanseo wrote: »

The sad thing is, there's an entire board (PIAB mentioned above) set up to apparently independently assess the financial need of "victims" in these cases.

The only sensible conclusion is that they're on commission or something.

Not sure what you mean?

Graces7 · 09-11-2018 8:12am

RobbingBandit wrote: »

I'm going through a very difficult health journey at the moment which on the outside looking in is major malpractice and negligence on several sides however from my point of view I'd rather keep my foot/leg/ability to walk than sue the ****e out of ignorant blaise doctors and a ****e health system.

What use is money if it costs you you're quality of life due to the system not willing or being able to listen to you, sometimes I think throwing money at these cases makes the wheel keep turning but when you are faced with a life altering situation that has to be done by the books then you are ****ed as it's their way or no way.

Much the same situation for me here. BUT you would be amazed the difference a challenge from a good barrister can achieve. The system can be made to listen to you. Often no need to sue. If there is a need then fine. You can buy better treatment then.

Nermal · 09-11-2018 10:22am

How come every successful negligence claim is not accompanied by a prosecution of a medical professional?

If someone was negligent, why don't they face criminal consequences?

If they weren't negligent to a criminal extent, why then is the State liable for anything?

ohnonotgmail · 09-11-2018 10:30am

Noveight wrote: »

To pay out half a million to a woman who admitted liability was significant.

It almost says "we were at fault for not protecting you from yourself."

She was a child when it happened.

ohnonotgmail · 09-11-2018 10:31am

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Do you think it is reasonable for, for example an award given to a child, disabled through medical negligence at birth, to have up to one third of their award settlement retained by their legal team?

Do you think legal people should work on cases for years for nothing?

Grayson · 09-11-2018 12:11pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Do you think it is reasonable for, for example an award given to a child, disabled through medical negligence at birth, to have up to one third of their award settlement retained by their legal team?

Like Graces said, if that's what they charge, then yes it is. Some lawyers work on contingency and wouldn't take a risky case otherwise. Some work on hourly billing. IF the family have to pay that to get justice then it's worth it. It's not the law that says a lawyer has to get 1/3 of the payment. The fees are paid in each case.
You can even have cases like Katie Hopkins where someone ends up losing and going bankrupt over their legal fees.

It seems that you're angry that people who want justice after a doctor has committed malpractice hire the best lawyers to try the case.

Grayson · 09-11-2018 12:18pm

Nermal wrote: »

How come every successful negligence claim is not accompanied by a prosecution of a medical professional?

If someone was negligent, why don't they face criminal consequences?

If they weren't negligent to a criminal extent, why then is the State liable for anything?

It's not always a criminal matter. And the burden of proof is different in civil cases. Take libel for example. You can sue someone for it but do you ever see people go to jail for it?

Graces7 · 09-11-2018 12:26pm

Grayson wrote: »

Like Graces said, if that's what they charge, then yes it is. Some lawyers work on contingency and wouldn't take a risky case otherwise. Some work on hourly billing. IF the family have to pay that to get justice then it's worth it. It's not the law that says a lawyer has to get 1/3 of the payment. The fees are paid in each case.
You can even have cases like Katie Hopkins where someone ends up losing and going bankrupt over their legal fees.

It seems that you're angry that people who want justice after a doctor has committed malpractice hire the best lawyers to try the case.[/QUOTE[

And remember that the state eg HSE will employ top legal professionals to defend themselves..

Graces7 · 09-11-2018 12:38pm

Nermal wrote: »

How come every successful negligence claim is not accompanied by a prosecution of a medical professional?

If someone was negligent, why don't they face criminal consequences?

If they weren't negligent to a criminal extent, why then is the State liable for anything?

Negligence is not a criminal act. Not like assault etc. If as in one terrible baby death

https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2018/1025/1006627-baby-inquest/

There was no criminal intention. but culpable negligence

And this tragic case

https://www.thejournal.ie/parents-of-baby-who-died-from-a-cold-sore-call-for-greater-awareness-and-policy-change-4315096-Oct2018/

The verdict of "healthcare acquired infection"

In this case no legal action v HSE for compensation?

Graces7 · 09-11-2018 12:43pm

Nermal wrote: »

How come every successful negligence claim is not accompanied by a prosecution of a medical professional?

If someone was negligent, why don't they face criminal consequences?

If they weren't negligent to a criminal extent, why then is the State liable for anything?

The disciplining should come from within HSE and the Medical Council. ie sanctions , barring.

No idea how many/few of the doctors in these cases do get struck off?

Nermal · 09-11-2018 1:06pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Negligence is not a criminal act. Not like assault etc. If as in one terrible baby death

https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2018/1025/1006627-baby-inquest/

There was no criminal intention. but culpable negligence

From the article: "during the procedure, a critical drop in oxygen levels went undetected, with fatal consequences".

There are two possible scenarios:

A drop in oxygen levels can and does go undetected because of reasons outside of the control of the professionals involved, e.g. oxygen levels are not routinely checked as part of the procedure, or they are only checked at certain intervals, or if a certain symptom manifests. In this case, the State is not liable - procedures were followed. No procedure is infallible.

or

A drop in oxygen levels went undetected because the professionals involved did not follow procedure, e.g. they didn't perform a test that they should have, or didn't interpret a test correctly. In this case, if we decide the State is liable, why are the professionals involved not fired?

There appears to be a 'grey area' where the State is on the hook for multi-million euro payouts, and the professionals involved are not held accountable. That's not acceptable.

sdanseo · 09-11-2018 10:24pm

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

Not sure what you mean?

Tongue-in cheek implying that the PIAB are incentivised to award higher payouts by getting a cut or kickback from the law companies.

Graces7 · 10-11-2018 8:29am

sdanseo wrote: »

Tongue-in cheek implying that the PIAB are incentivised to award higher payouts by getting a cut or kickback from the law companies.

But they are working? Not for free! Such is life.

Graces7 · 10-11-2018 8:33am

Nermal wrote: »

From the article: "during the procedure, a critical drop in oxygen levels went undetected, with fatal consequences".

There appears to be a 'grey area' where the State is on the hook for multi-million euro payouts, and the professionals involved are not held accountable. That's not acceptable.

excellent question. If you have ever tried to make a formal complaint re a dr or a hospital you will know it is like spitting in the wind. GMC is a joke.

In truth the only way forward no matter how serious the negligence, is to take legal action.

Have a look at the "Rate my Hospital" site.

SafeSurfer · 10-11-2018 10:43am

Grayson wrote: »

Like Graces said, if that's what they charge, then yes it is. Some lawyers work on contingency and wouldn't take a risky case otherwise. Some work on hourly billing. IF the family have to pay that to get justice then it's worth it. It's not the law that says a lawyer has to get 1/3 of the payment. The fees are paid in each case.
You can even have cases like Katie Hopkins where someone ends up losing and going bankrupt over their legal fees.

It seems that you're angry that people who want justice after a doctor has committed malpractice hire the best lawyers to try the case.

No I am angry that taxpayer pay for the incompetence of one guilded self regulating group and the greed of another.

We have the highest compensation payouts in the world and the highest legal fees.
Surely that can’t be solely because we have the best legal teams in the world or is the system gamed to their advantage.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/health/legal-costs-in-ireland-are-now-highest-in-western-world-1.2053218%3fmode=amp

Graces7 · 12-11-2018 3:43pm

and another one

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2018/1112/1010361-apology-clinic-death/

No disciplinary action?

113 Medical Negligence Cases To Cost the State €1.4 Billion

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