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Mick Tator wrote: »glad you will look at O Grada, I think you will enjoy reading him: much of his writing is freely available online, links via his academic site.
You know O'Grada is a contributor to the current documentary about the Famine on RTE. He has appeared on it several times.0 -
Mick Tator wrote: »Similarly statements such as “Ireland's relatively benign climate is ideal for grain tillage, deciduous fruits, root vegetables and pasture” show an ignorance of agriculture.
It sounded pretty brainy to me Mick.0 -
Snickers Man wrote: »the overall effect has been a general transformation of the Irish economy to such an extent that in my lifetime, its population has increased by 75%!!!
That growth, moreover, has taken place over a period when the Irish birth rate has plummeted.
If you're looking for Irish genocide you're closer here than you were with the famine.0 -
Snickers Man wrote: »You know O'Grada is a contributor to the current documentary about the Famine on RTE. He has appeared on it several times.
Both episodes were very superficial, Ep.2 is worse than the first.. There were many good contributors but each only had ‘one-liner’ soundbites so there was no depth. More than few inaccuracies such as :- stating the fare-paid emigrants as being evicted (not so); stating the exodus from the Lansdowne Estate was a ‘clearance’ - it happened after the Famine was over and many locals fought to obtain passage. Also the figures narrated on the coffinship deaths were grossly inaccurate. In total those ships carried a very small percentage of emigrants, about 100k in total of which about 60k were Irish. Most sailed in the off-season, the harsh winter of 46/47 (one of the worst in living memory of that era) and many passengers came aboard in a weakened state and with fever. Despite that the total deaths on the voyage amounted to about 5k, so +/-3K Irish deaths. Another 15 k in total died ashore in Grosse Isle/Quebec’St.Lawrence/Montreal, mainly from fever contracted during the voyage. A horrible number but a fraction of the number asserted on the programme and the deaths ‘afloat’ are not that far off the norms of the day..
It’s fine to pontificate about mis-handling or whatever, but I’ve yet to hear any academic (particularly one like Joe Lee) come up with a coherent ‘what should have been done’ rescue programme. Yes, feed them to stop the deaths, but how can that number of illiterate homeless paupers be managed into having an existence?0 -
Mick Tator wrote: »It’s fine to pontificate about mis-handling or whatever, but I’ve yet to hear any academic (particularly one like Joe Lee) come up with a coherent ‘what should have been done’ rescue programme. Yes, feed them to stop the deaths, but how can that number of illiterate homeless paupers be managed into having an existence?
And it's worth noting that, prior to the famine, the Irish peasantry was noted not only for being poor but also for being very well-nourished and very healthy. So clearly the country was generally capable of supporting that number of people, at least in terms of feeding them, absent the extraordinary conditions of the famine. So what you mainly needed was a short-term feeding programme, and you have acknowledged yourself that that would have been possible.
As regards the problem of illiteracy, the solution to that one is obvious, and in fact it is at this very time that the national school system is being established. The solution to the problem of homelessness (or poor housing) was not so easy, and it really took land reform plus government intervention in housing to address it, but it was addressed, and it could have been addressed sooner. We have to acknowledge that to a large extent the problem existed in the first place because of a thoroughly dysfunctional system of landlordism imposed and maintained by the government in the interets of a very narrow class.
Finally, it's worth noting that Ireland was not the only country to be afflicted by potato blight at the time. It also affected Belgium, France, the United States, Canada and other countries, and it's worth looking at how those countries responded. Obviously it was a bigger problem in Ireland, due to monoculture which focussed not just on one crop, but on one variety of one crop. The long term solution to this is obvious - agricultural diversity - and, for short-term solutions, it's worth looking at how other countries responded, as compared to how the UK government responded.0 -
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V8 Interceptor wrote: »If you're looking for Irish genocide you're closer here than you were with the famine.
Don't like where you're going with this. The arrival of people from outside, per se, is not evidence of a country or nation in decline. Quite the reverse in fact.
Remember the last lot that came over and became "more Irish than the Irish themselves" so quickly that their rulers tried to impose anti-miscegenation and other cultural enforcement laws, on them so that they wouldn't "go native"?
Google the Statutes of Kilkenny if you don't know what I'm talking about.
Fancy passing a law telling Englishmen to keep their hands off Irish women!!!! How did they ever think that was going to work out?
And as for forbidding Irish music (Hey Nonny Nonny good; Diddly Diddly Dee bad). That was always going to be a loser too.
Another Statute of Kilkenny was an executive order to "Put some pants on, man!" The great medieval chronicler Froissart was scathing about the Native Irish eschewing the wearing of "britches" and preferring a cloak which permitted free air circulation around one's nether regions.
Even that tradition has survived, if only during ceremonial wearing of kilts.
Immigration beats drastic emigration every time.0 -
Mick Tator wrote: »Yes, I’ve now seen both episodes. Overall I thought it disappointing from a historical perspective ...
Both episodes were very superficial, Ep.2 is worse than the first.. There were many good contributors but each only had ‘one-liner’ soundbitesMick Tator wrote: »It’s fine to pontificate about mis-handling or whatever, but I’ve yet to hear any academic (particularly one like Joe Lee) come up with a coherent ‘what should have been done’ rescue programme. Yes, feed them to stop the deaths, but how can that number of illiterate homeless paupers be managed into having an existence?
Well, we're Irish, (I presume) so we can ask "Why are you starting from here?"
Why was there such a monoculture in farming especially at the lowest levels of society? After all, the potato had only been in Ireland for 300 years (if that) at that point. It's possible to grow other staples here, you know?
Why did they have so little economic flexibility as to be unable to purchase other foodstuffs?
Why was there so little political/administrative reaction, especially after the first response from Peel and his government at the outset of the Famine?
Why was it not sustained as the problem got worse, rather than better?
Potato blight knew no boundaries (as the show made clear). Other countries coped better.
It was the economic, social and political environment (ie the human factors) in Ireland at the time that were the main difference between the disparate effects of the potato blight on this country and on others.0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »Since they already existed, the question seems meaningless.Peregrinus wrote: »And it's worth noting that, prior to the famine, the Irish peasantry was noted not only for being poor but also for being very well-nourished and very healthy. So clearly the country was generally capable of supporting that number of people, at least in terms of feeding them, absent the extraordinary conditions of the famine. So what you mainly needed was a short-term feeding programme, and you have acknowledged yourself that that would have been possible.
Population density, land condition and size of landholding precluded beef rearing at an economically viable level. There were no natural resources in Ireland. England had Coal & Ironworks, an industrial base, canal and rail networks – Ireland had none to speak of. How do you get your product to market? Where do you get the capital required for investment? Even at a very basic level, how/where can you get salt to cure your fish? So what do you do with a workforce widely dispersed across mountainsides and in areas that had no transport network (roads & trains)?Peregrinus wrote: »As regards the problem of illiteracy, the solution to that one is obvious, and in fact it is at this very time that the national school system is being established.
The Society for Promoting the Education of the Poor in Ireland, (Kildare Place Society) wasfounded in 1811. It was non-denominational and at the outset did not teach religion. The RCC, the CoI and the Presbyterians fought over control so it failed. The next stage was in 1831 by Lord Stanley, the Chief Secretary for Ireland. He established the National Education Board and obtained funds to build schools and establish a system of education. The RCC (particularly under Cardinal Paul Cullen) did not support the school system and over the years fought against it until 1863 when it outright banned attendance by Catholics and founded its own teacher training college. During the 1850’s the school system catered for only a quarter of 5 to 15 year olds, and made little impact on illiteracy until the 1880’s. Even as late as 1881 about 50% and in 1911 about 35% of pupils attended school for more than 100 days annually. Secondary schooling was even worse – the number of pupils in 1848 was 5,000, it doubled to 10,000 in 1878. It was not until the Irish Education Act of 1892 which made education free and mandatory for students between the ages of six and fourteen that progress was made. (Lots of statistics in the various reports of the Commissioners of Public Instruction in Ireland)Peregrinus wrote: »The solution to the problem of homelessness (or poor housing) was not so easy, and it really took land reform plus government intervention in housing to address it, but it was addressed, and it could have been addressed sooner. We have to acknowledge that to a large extent the problem existed in the first place because of a thoroughly dysfunctional system of landlordism imposed and maintained by the government in the interets of a very narrow class.Peregrinus wrote: »Finally, it's worth noting that Ireland was not the only country to be afflicted by potato blight at the time. It also affected Belgium, France, the United States, Canada and other countries, and it's worth looking at how those countries responded. Obviously it was a bigger problem in Ireland, due to monoculture which focussed not just on one crop, but on one variety of one crop. The long term solution to this is obvious - agricultural diversity - and, for short-term solutions, it's worth looking at how other countries responded, as compared to how the UK government responded.
I’m not disagreeing with the criticism of government over their handling of the matter, I’m not saying they excelled, I’m again saying that in judging the handling of the Famine it must be assessed in a mid-18th C perspective. Easy to criticize, but no realistic proposals have been put forward.
Look at the economic question in today’s terms.
Let’s assume you have inherited a commercial centre that has been designed for 60 retail units. Sadly it is debt-ridden, repayments are heavily in arrears and because it was bequeathed to you there is an onus to pay support to siblings, who also are now in arrears. Your own family home is part of the security. The banks (plural because there are several mortgages) are on your back and want you to pay down the debt and work out a payment plan.
Commercial rates, insurance, etc., are being incurred at your cost. For several years you have reduced rents by up to 40% yet little rent has been received and for the last couple of years none was received so you are sinking deeper into debt. You decide to visit the property and discover that almost all the units have been subdivided and subdivided again. A typical example is tenant A who has a shop with integrated living accommodation – however, you discover he has given a room to each of his 3 sons (B,C,D) who have opened their own shops, married, had kids all now living in each of the three rooms. That’s four shops/families. Sub-tenants B, C and D are replicated in other units so you now probably have about 200 shops and families in a premises suited/designed for 50. Unfortunately all are competing for a limited number of customers so none are viable – economic survival is not possible and never will be.
Then your estate agent says to you – “There is a new premises opening across town with far greater business opportunities, why don’t we offer to pay all the B,C and D sub-tenants to go over there and we will also pay the moving costs and help them set up shop. That will allow us to reclaim our shops and make them economically viable by reducing the number of occupancies. It also will enable us to merge some to provide bigger units and bring in anchor tenants . It’s a win-win.
What would you do?
That effectively is the choice faced by the landed estates in the Famine.
(and of course too many ‘centres’ were unviable, a NAMA body (Encumbered Estates Court) was formed, the mortgage holders and owners took a bath and vulture funds (big merchants) bought them up on the cheap.0 -
Snickers Man wrote: »
Remember the last lot that came over and became "more Irish than the Irish themselves" so quickly that their rulers tried to impose anti-miscegenation and other cultural enforcement laws, on them so that they wouldn't "go native"?
Google the Statutes of Kilkenny if you don't know what I'm talking about.
Alas they weren't the last lot. The last lot did everything but assimilate and are a very good argument against mass immigration (even though I'm descended from them myself!)
I know the aul Statues well. I remember reading them on a pub wall in Waterford city and one of them was "Its an offence to call someone an Irishman"0 -
Mr Tator all the academics give multiple times the casualty figures you're giving. I suspect you might have read that Dutch crank called Nusteling out of Nijmegen. I noticed the same arguments on another Site a couple of days ago.0
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V8 Interceptor wrote: »Mr Tator all the academics give multiple times the casualty figures you're giving. I suspect you might have read that Dutch crank called Nusteling out of Nijmegen. I noticed the same arguments on another Site a couple of days ago.
Nobody knows how many died after landing and dispersal but the figures I give are generaly accepted. There is a memorial stone further upriver from Grosse Ile at an old hospital site -
“To preserve from desecration the remains of 6,000 immigrants who died from ship fever AD 1847-48 this stone is erected by the workmen of Messrs. Peto, Brassey and Betts employed in the construction of the Victoria Bridge AD 1859.”
Two causes led to the high mortality rate of the ‘coffin ship’ passengers of 1847/48. (Coffin ship is a misnomer, but that is another argument.) The first is in some voyages that season there was pre-selection which ensured the weakest were sent overseas– for example Major Denis Mahon of Strokestown, Co. Roscommon evicted more than 3,000 tenants. At the same time he told his agent ‘I think the first class for us to send is those of the poorest and worst description, who would be a charge on us for the Poor House or for Outdoor Relief’ They sailed on ‘The Virginius’ from Liverpool, 28 May, a total of 476 passengers. Even while this ship was berthed in Liverpool, passengers sick with fever and dysentery came aboard and deaths occurred before the ship left the Mersey. One hundred fifty eight had died on the voyage, including the first and second officers, seven crew and the master and steward.
If you want to learn about Grosse Ile and emigrants to Canada I suggest you read the reports of Alexander Carlisle Buchanan, the British government’s appointee as chief agent “for the Superintendence of Emigration to [Lower and Upper] Canada.” He had lived in Quebec probably from 1833 until his death in 1868.
Another good read is Robert Whyte’s 1847 Famine Ship Diary (Cork 1994) [reprint of The Ocean Plague (Boston 1847)]. Whyte sailed as a cabin passenger from Newry and it's a description of the voyage.
Further reading is
T. Coleman, Passage to America (London 1972).
D. MacKay, Flight from Famine: the Coming of the Irish to Canada (Toronto 1990).
M. O’Gallagher & R. Dompierre, Eyewitness Grosse Ile 1847 (Quebec 1995)0 -
I just happened to be browsing this other Site and similar arguments were made in a post made around the same day as yours and I thought they might be connected. Apologies if this was not the case.
https://www.politicalirish.com/threads/exaggerated-death-toll-of-an-gorta-m%C3%B3r.38973/0
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