Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

molloyjh · 07-12-2019 10:32pm

Yeah Toner has been going well the last few weeks. Has to be back in the frame for the 6Ns.

accensi0n · 07-12-2019 10:41pm

Toner looked good today. But thought he was a bit poor last week against Glasgow, no? Admittedly though I wasn't paying a lot of attention to him.

shootermacg · 07-12-2019 10:52pm

So a back-stabbing for without a doubt the greatest Irish Rugby Manager we've ever had. So that's Joe and Gatty that got stabbed in the back. This country (at least in rugby) may be gaining a reputation for being a bunch of snakes.

Someone call St Paddy! The snakes are back in force!

Professor Genius · 07-12-2019 11:02pm

shootermacg wrote: »

So a back-stabbing for without a doubt the greatest Irish Rugby Manager we've ever had. So that's Joe and Gatty that got stabbed in the back. This country (at least in rugby) may be gaining a reputation for being a bunch of snakes.

Someone call St Paddy! The snakes are back in force!

Oh here we go again. All hail King Joe the man who can do no wrong bar f up 2 world cups with his own special brand of idiosyncratic micro managing ocd approach to coaching !

Shefwedfan · 07-12-2019 11:07pm

Professor Genius wrote: »

Oh here we go again. All hail King Joe the man who can do no wrong bar f up 2 world cups with his own special brand of idiosyncratic micro managing ocd approach to coaching !

Professor Genius wrote: »

Given the level of deference shown to Joe (just look at this forum) I would say no one thought they were in a position to question him. IRFU need to be very careful never to allow such control freakery to be present in future head coaches

Professor Genius wrote: »

Joe stymied them completely . It was impossible to overcome his micro management by all accounts. Disaster by process

Professor Genius wrote: »

Schmidt now being called out as the busted flush and charlatan he allowed himself to develop into in 2019. He’s been scalded out of it the past few weeks

Going back further

Professor Genius wrote: »

I think a lot of people feel duped into the “In Joe we Trust” mantra and are now too embarrassed to admit his failings

Professor Genius wrote: »

Ultimately a failure. Some results yes. Slam and 6 nations championships largely due to very weak French teams and mixed performances from England and Wales. Both world cups were an effective disaster. 2019 worse than 2015. Way worse. We have gone so far backwards and he now seems out of his depth

The most successful provincial and international manager ever in Ireland....

Yes he made mistakes.....

But really, whats the point in posting these insulting comments?

theVersatile · 07-12-2019 11:45pm

Christ guys - there's a middle ground between Joe being awful and Joe being God's greatest gift. Can we all not just agree that for the majority of his reign, he was a good coach for Ireland who unfortunately couldn't take us to the same heights in the WC? It's not black and white.

whatawaster · 07-12-2019 11:49pm

I think it's getting to the stage for me where Murray is no longer automatic first choice for Ireland. He is not just off form, he has been playing at a lower level for 12-18 months.

Past achievements carry weight, I accept that, but over the last 12 months I think his level has dropped significantly, to the extent that I don't think it's clear who is the best SH between:

McGrath
JGP
Cooney
Murray
Marmion
Blade

In fact, if Farrell picked any 3 from that above list, I'd find it hard to argue with him. They are all good players.

Shefwedfan · 07-12-2019 11:53pm

theVersatile wrote: »

Christ guys - there's a middle ground between Joe being awful and Joe being God's greatest gift. Can we all not just agree that for the majority of his reign, he was a good coach for Ireland who unfortunately couldn't take us to the same heights in the WC? It's not black and white.

That’s the point I’m making, yes he made mistakes but the witch hunt by some posters is an insult to all the great work he done

molloyjh · 08-12-2019 1:00am

theVersatile wrote: »

Christ guys - there's a middle ground between Joe being awful and Joe being God's greatest gift. Can we all not just agree that for the majority of his reign, he was a good coach for Ireland who unfortunately couldn't take us to the same heights in the WC? It's not black and white.

Excuse me, but this is the Internet. We wont tolerate you're idealistic and balanced mumbo jumbo around here. Kindly pick a side and stick by it regardless of fact or reason.

molloyjh · 08-12-2019 1:04am

Professor Genius wrote: »

Oh here we go again. All hail King Joe the man who can do no wrong bar f up 2 world cups with his own special brand of idiosyncratic micro managing ocd approach to coaching !

Lazy nonsense. We topped our group in 2015 and only lost the QF to a list of injuries no team could cope with. I've no issue calling out Joe for making mistakes. I'm reasonable enough to recognise though that he wasnt the only one who didnt deliver. And decent enough to not let the failings of 2019 colour my judgement of a man who was not only the single most successful coach this country has ever seen, but is also a genuinely decent guy who regularly made time for people and engaged with them when most others wouldnt have.

If you want to be insulting head on over to Twitter. This is a discussion forum, not a place for people to spout their own special brand of lazy finger pointing like they have a clue approach to rugby analysis.

08-12-2019 1:14am

Professor Genius wrote: »

The big question is what sort of long term damage has Schmidt inflicted on the Irish rugby players.

Long term damage being bringing the expectation of Irish rugby to its greatest heights?

Shefwedfan · 08-12-2019 8:43am

whatawaster wrote: »

I think it's getting to the stage for me where Murray is no longer automatic first choice for Ireland. He is not just off form, he has been playing at a lower level for 12-18 months.

Past achievements carry weight, I accept that, but over the last 12 months I think his level has dropped significantly, to the extent that I don't think it's clear who is the best SH between:

McGrath
JGP
Cooney
Murray
Marmion
Blade

In fact, if Farrell picked any 3 from that above list, I'd find it hard to argue with him. They are all good players.

Based on current form it would have to be
Cooney
Blade
JGP

JGP could jump Blade based on performances this/next weekend

awec · 08-12-2019 2:20pm

Cooney is the best 9 in Ireland at the current time, and must surely get a proper go in February.

irishbucsfan · 08-12-2019 2:30pm

JGP's arrival will put big pressure on them all. He's really developed into a top 9

Dubinusa · 08-12-2019 4:38pm

Cooney is playing great. He should be in pole position. Murray shouldn't be close to the squad at this stage.

08-12-2019 4:47pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

Cooney is playing great. He should be in pole position. Murray shouldn't be close to the squad at this stage.

I'm not sure there's any point in having an expectation Murray won't make the squad, I'd be absolutely shocked if he didn't and even if everyone keeps playing exactly as they are, if I were a betting man I'd bet on him to start. But I do agree he's not the best 9 we have now and his middling form has been going on for a long time now.

Injuries certainly haven't helped and I really think his untouchable status has to have made some contribution too. It was irrelevant how he played for Munster or Ireland, he was playing every big game and he was playing for 70+ minutes. Farrell has a job to do to get a bit of competition going in the position. Cooney has been overlooked for way too long.

troyzer · 08-12-2019 5:45pm

Malakai Some Revolution wrote: »

I'm not sure there's any point in having an expectation Murray won't make the squad, I'd be absolutely shocked if he didn't and even if everyone keeps playing exactly as they are, if I were a betting man I'd bet on him to start. But I do agree he's not the best 9 we have now and his middling form has been going on for a long time now.

Injuries certainly haven't helped and I really think his untouchable status has to have made some contribution too. It was irrelevant how he played for Munster or Ireland, he was playing every big game and he was playing for 70+ minutes. Farrell has a job to do to get a bit of competition going in the position. Cooney has been overlooked for way too long.

Murray hasn't been good since June 2018.

That's 18 months ago. I'm all in favour of giving your guys time to play into form but 18 months is taking the piss, even giving him time for the injury.

Former Former · 08-12-2019 6:57pm

Murray and Cooney are in two different conversations though. It was never Murray keeping Cooney out of the squad.

sydthebeat · 08-12-2019 7:08pm

Realistically I see the 9 shirt as open as the 2 shirt currently.. And it's unfortunate that that's the case.

It really depends on how farrell wants to play, but if it's higher tempo away from contact there are currently better options playing than Murray

Rattlehead_ie · 08-12-2019 7:08pm

I am not wanting to start more of the Schmidt back and forth here but its interesting to see that, certainly at 9, The players who weren't AS involved with the Irish setup in the last 4 yrs are performing better at the moment.
While I defo think Cooney and Blade should be brought in and heavily used if during the 6N if their performances continue. I think we could see Murray displaced, but coming back into form over the next few months.

jacothelad · 08-12-2019 7:51pm

Where does Marmion fit in here? It seems to me that he has been sidelined from the conversation without due regard.

Dubinusa · 08-12-2019 7:56pm

I think Marmion is hurt. He is proven and if his form returns, he should be in with a shout.

08-12-2019 8:08pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

I think Marmion is hurt. He is proven and if his form returns, he should be in with a shout.

He's started in wins against England and NZ so yeah we know he can do it. Dunno what has happened him since the NZ win though. Injury/loss of form/lost confidence?

whatawaster · 08-12-2019 9:35pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Where does Marmion fit in here? It seems to me that he has been sidelined from the conversation without due regard.

I don't think there is a lot between our 6 best SH's at the moment.

I'd agree Cooney probably in the best form at the moment, followed by JGP and Blade. Murray probably in the worst form.

Shefwedfan · 08-12-2019 9:45pm

Marmion needs to start playing.....

Can't call for Murray to get dropped and pick the form player and then bring Marmion into the discussion

At the moment based on form he is at the bottom because he hasn't played enough....

I would love Casey/McCarthy at Munster to start pushing for inclusion as well

theVersatile · 08-12-2019 10:42pm

I feel like Cooney gets slightly overrated due to his goalkicking prowess - he absolutely butchered a two on one yesterday that we wouldn't hear the end of it Murray had done the same. Still admittedly the form 9 in the country.

Thought Murray did fine yesterday considering the storm. Not back to his best but definitely not as awful as some would have you think. He's well able to play quickly when he wants to, take a look at some of those lineout launches from the first half. He only hesitates when there's repositioning to be done (a third forward working around to join the receiving pod which only has two) or when Itoje was lying all over his ball. Even in the warm up you can see he's spraying the ball around like mad - though his game around the fringes gas definitely regressed. Doesn't have the same threat to 10 and 20 at the rucks that the likes of Cooney have.

Niallof9 · 09-12-2019 11:51am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

That’s the point I’m making, yes he made mistakes but the witch hunt by some posters is an insult to all the great work he done

Its not a witch hunt. Peter O'Reilly's article yesterday was very interesting. Talk of Schmidt saying he was "wounded" by Best's comments.

It's hilarious that certain posters cannot face reality.

People getting pasted for stuff that has subsequently come out in the wash.

sydthebeat · 09-12-2019 12:08pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Its not a witch hunt. Peter O'Reilly's article yesterday was very interesting. Talk of Schmidt saying he was "wounded" by Best's comments.

It's hilarious that certain posters cannot face reality.

People getting pasted for stuff that has subsequently come out in the wash.

you didnt post in the rugby forum from June 2017 until August 2019

Basically the best period that irish rugby ever had.

So because you didnt not post in this period, and did not call out any of the issues that you subsequently claim to have been calling out all the time....

That means you have absolutely no credibility as a critic of Schmidt, as you were not brave enough to call out your issues when we were flying high.

Professor Genius · 09-12-2019 12:13pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

you didnt post in the rugby forum from June 2017 until August 2019

Basically the best period that irish rugby ever had.

So because you didnt not post in this period, and did not call out any of the issues that you subsequently claim to have been calling out all the time....

That means you have absolutely no credibility as a critic of Schmidt, as you were not brave enough to call out your issues when we were flying high.

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths the Schmidt fanbois go to to defend the indefensible

sydthebeat · 09-12-2019 12:19pm

Professor Genius wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths the Schmidt fanbois go to to defend the indefensible

do you see any defense of Joe schmidt in that post???

i think your biases have you blinded.

and anyway, youre just another sea gull.
where was your criticism of Schmidt in 2018?

Professor Genius · 09-12-2019 12:24pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

do you see any defense of Joe schmidt in that post???

i think your biases have you blinded.

and anyway, youre just another sea gull.
where was your criticism of Schmidt in 2018?

What I see is someone desperately trawling through the history of any poster that dares to criticise King Joe.

Have you considered that I was on the forum under a different now closed account ?

09-12-2019 12:32pm

theVersatile wrote: »

I feel like Cooney gets slightly overrated due to his goalkicking prowess - he absolutely butchered a two on one yesterday that we wouldn't hear the end of it Murray had done the same. Still admittedly the form 9 in the country.

Thought Murray did fine yesterday considering the storm. Not back to his best but definitely not as awful as some would have you think. He's well able to play quickly when he wants to, take a look at some of those lineout launches from the first half. He only hesitates when there's repositioning to be done (a third forward working around to join the receiving pod which only has two) or when Itoje was lying all over his ball. Even in the warm up you can see he's spraying the ball around like mad - though his game around the fringes gas definitely regressed. Doesn't have the same threat to 10 and 20 at the rucks that the likes of Cooney have.

Murray has had about the easiest ride possible. It has taken the entire calendar year of 2019 for people to serious talk about his position being under threat, and his coaches have put him under absolutely no internal pressure at Munster or Ireland. And even at that, as I said earlier in the thread, I would say he's still the clear favourite to start in the 6N for the simple fact he is Conor Murray and everyone else isn't Conor Murray.

sydthebeat · 09-12-2019 12:37pm

Professor Genius wrote: »

What I see is someone desperately trawling through the history of any poster that dares to criticise King Joe.

Have you considered that I was on the forum under a different now closed account ?

i fully expect you were.... again a pure sign of a sea gull,... not brave enough to keep posting under one name, and therefore be required to stand over what you say.
all the more reason to treat your current guise with utter contempt.

and as for "trawling".... i could find that info in less than 10 seconds.

Professor Genius · 09-12-2019 12:51pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

i fully expect you were.... again a pure sign of a sea gull,... not brave enough to keep posting under one name, and therefore be required to stand over what you say.
all the more reason to treat your current guise with utter contempt.

and as for "trawling".... i could find that info in less than 10 seconds.

You have no idea why I had a different user name.

Your anger reveals how horrible the truth must be for you. King Joe is no more and his fake legacy is being dismantled before your very eyes.

sydthebeat · 09-12-2019 12:57pm

Professor Genius wrote: »

You have no idea why I had a different user name.

Your anger reveals how horrible the truth must be for you. King Joe is no more and his fake legacy is being dismantled before your very eyes.

LOL believe me you dont create any emotion in me other than contempt and indifference.

Unlike you i can recognize all the aspects of Joe Schmidts tenure, from all the good things to ultimately not being able to do what every other irish coach failed at too.

Thats his legacy.... Still the best coach we've ever had.

Shefwedfan · 09-12-2019 1:03pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

you didnt post in the rugby forum from June 2017 until August 2019

Basically the best period that irish rugby ever had.

So because you didnt not post in this period, and did not call out any of the issues that you subsequently claim to have been calling out all the time....

That means you have absolutely no credibility as a critic of Schmidt, as you were not brave enough to call out your issues when we were flying high.

We seem to have a few people who claim to have called out issues with Ireland and Joe but all seem to have on thing in common.....new accounts....

Desperately trolling the web to find a journalist that writes anything vague that might back up their new found wisdom doesn't really count either

All great now to question Joe but few people unable to recognize he is now left, gone, no longer with Ireland, hasta la vista.....So really the new found wisdom is absolutely 100% useless. You can't sack a manager that is already gone.

Onwards and upwards with the new coaching team.

P.S. as I have said multiple times, Joe made mistakes. He admitted himself he made mistakes. That still doesn't change his exceptional record at provincial and international level. He is still the most successful coach Ireland ever had. People ranting and raving about him now as if he was useless and it was blind faith really don't have a clue in my opinion. If he was sitting at home now with nothing maybe you could say that, but he is sitting at home with a bucket load of medals.

yerrahbah · 09-12-2019 1:12pm

With the news about Sexton emerging...

Carty starting 10 for the 6 nations?

Squidgy Black · 09-12-2019 1:17pm

yerrahbah wrote: »

With the news about Sexton emerging...

Carty starting 10 for the 6 nations?

Carbery is due back in the next week or two apparently, if he's fit he'll be picked I imagine.

Shefwedfan · 09-12-2019 1:24pm

yerrahbah wrote: »

With the news about Sexton emerging...

Carty starting 10 for the 6 nations?

Bit early to rule out Sexton?

Also, the new mantra was to pick players on form was it not?

whatawaster · 09-12-2019 1:31pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Bit early to rule out Sexton?

Also, the new mantra was to pick players on form was it not?

It should always be a mixture of form and overall ability. Can't just pick whoever played best last weekend, likewise you can't ignore extended drop-offs in form.

The right balance is somewhere in between those two.

aloooof · 09-12-2019 1:33pm

Professor Genius wrote: »

King Joe is no more and his fake legacy is being dismantled before your very eyes.

2011: Heineken Cup
2012: Heineken Cup
2013: Pro12, Challenge Cup
2014: 6 Nations
2015: 6 Nations
2018: Grand Slam

Add in:
- Our first ever wins vs NZ (2016, 2018)
- Our first ever test win in SA (2016)
- Our first series win vs Australia in 40 years (2018)

Ya, he was a real charlatan. :rolleyes:

whatawaster · 09-12-2019 1:34pm

aloooof wrote: »

2011: Heineken Cup
2012: Heineken Cup
2013: Pro12, Challenge Cup
2014: 6 Nations
2015: 6 Nations
2018: Grand Slam, first series win in Australia since 1979, second win vs NZ.

Add in:
- Our first ever wins vs NZ (2016, 2018)
- Our first ever test win in SA (2016)
- Our first series win vs Australia in 40 years (2018)

Ya, he was a real charlatan. :rolleyes:

That SA series still hurts.

Shefwedfan · 09-12-2019 1:36pm

whatawaster wrote: »

It should always be a mixture of form and overall ability. Can't just pick whoever played best last weekend, likewise you can't ignore extended drop-offs in form.

The right balance is somewhere in between those two.

Carty is struggling to get into Connacht team, I didnt see game at weekend but quick look at Connacht thread and it doesn't look like he is playing well....

You have Sexton, R Byrne, Burns, JJ and Fitzgerald all playing well and in form for a sustained period. Can't see how he would be considered to be Sextons replacement.....

whatawaster · 09-12-2019 1:39pm

What's our starting backrow v Scotland?

Ruddock v POM
Doris v Stander
VDF v Just staying fit because he is the best backrow in the country by a long way at the moment.

I'd guess at Ruddock, Stander, VDF.

Doris is playing very well, but Stander impressed me against Saracens, and I think the experience might get him the nod.

whatawaster · 09-12-2019 1:41pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Carty is struggling to get into Connacht team, I didnt see game at weekend but quick look at Connacht thread and it doesn't look like he is playing well....

You have Sexton, R Byrne, Burns, JJ and Fitzgerald all playing well and in form for a sustained period. Can't see how he would be considered to be Sextons replacement.....

I'd still want Carbery, if fit, to get a proper run in the Ireland 10 shirt.

Have been very impressed with Fitzgerald. He's the kind of guy you'd like to see on a summer tour, or a November international. But there is a lot of traffic between him and Sexton (Carbery, Carty, JJ, Burns, Byrne).

Yeah_Right · 09-12-2019 1:52pm

Professor Genius wrote: »

You have no idea why I had a different user name.

Your anger reveals how horrible the truth must be for you. King Joe is no more and his fake legacy is being dismantled before your very eyes.

So tell us, who was your favourite player that JS kept ignoring and not selecting? Or was it more than one?

I know exactly why you had a different user name

Stout Warrior · 09-12-2019 2:00pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

“The two vice-captains are Johnny and Pete so if there was going to be continuity, it would be Johnny and Pete,” said Schmidt.

why do we want continuity. already the situations people said wouldn't happen are starting to happen,

Schmidt sticking around is the worst thing that can happen. I'm not looking forward to this at all

We had yet another redemption article today. Larmour. Refused to talk about the WC basically, pretending it didn't happen.

Chris Farrell interview was an aye opener though. Seems to indicate how much more relaxed an operator Larkham is, which even though he was referring to probably Felix Jones, it would explain why Schmidt was a fan.

There is no way POM should be captain. Sexton currently is the only established, proven World Class operator ready for the role no matter his form. And as he get gradually replaced over the next 12 months he can be taken over by Ryan. Murray can no longer be considered in that bracket until he fully recovers.

The thing needs to be a total reboot to bring a positive vibe back. If lads like Cooney, Farrell by two, Conway, Addison don't get a look i think things will turn toxic fairly sharpish.

You strike me as having a problem with coaches like Joe and say that things turn toxic fairly quickly. Do you not think the players are there to serve and not be prima donnas who dictate selections by being "toxic" in camp?

There has to be a certain amount of changing of the guard. Best is gone, Kearney looks gone, Murray looks outplayed by several players at the moment.

With the rigid plays instilled in the players at world cup and no positive result things will have to be changed a certain amount and things freshened up.

I think a player can make his case and if he doesn't get selected it's something he has to live with not have a bad attitude and try to poison the atmosphere in camp by being p1ssed off with the coaches decisions.

Cooney has been the main fall guy in this regard and his attitude has been anything but toxic - he has swallowed the bitter pill and not complained or thrown a strop he has come back better and better each time.

If Farrell has a bit of sense he will change things up but to say players have a right to throw a strop for not being selected says more about your mindset and attitude than it does about Joe or his supposed conservatism.

yerrahbah · 09-12-2019 2:06pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Carbery is due back in the next week or two apparently, if he's fit he'll be picked I imagine.

Forgot about Carbery, needs a few games under his belt at Munster first I would think.

Shefwedfan · 09-12-2019 2:13pm

whatawaster wrote: »

What's our starting backrow v Scotland?

Ruddock v POM
Doris v Stander
VDF v Just staying fit because he is the best backrow in the country by a long way at the moment.

I'd guess at Ruddock, Stander, VDF.

Doris is playing very well, but Stander impressed me against Saracens, and I think the experience might get him the nod.

I would like to see Stander given a chance at 6. So I would put VDF at 7 and then someone at 8. Who that is still has a ????

Dubinusa · 09-12-2019 2:45pm

Jaysus. J.S is gone! Let's move on. He gave us a purple patch and took us up the ladder to being a proper tier 1 side. I agree that he totally **** the bed for the rwc, but it's a new era now!
As far as oh goes, I think if Sexton is out. Burns has been the most consistent 10 so far. But, Carberry may return and claim his spot. Carty wasn't too bad on Sunday, but needs to eliminate the brain farts if he wants to stake a claim. Then there is RB. A very capable lad. One decisive match against England does not end his Hope's imo. If that were the case, many of our lads would or should be cast aside.
Remember, England hosed us comfortably at the Aviva in Feb. I don't see any other player getting the flak that RB received.
Murray was ok this weekend. But still hasn't rose up the ranks, imo. Cooney offers so much more, imo. But, Farrell makes that decision. Blade has been superb too and then there's the Leinster lads.
The back row will be a crapshoot. It seemed unbalanced all this year. It lacked power and cohesion and was regularly outplayed. I would hope to see some new blood during the 6nations. But if I was to guess, I think it will be POM, VDF and Stander. I would prefer Ruddock, VDF and Stander. We might get Stander Vdf and Nordi at 8?
I reckon Doris or Deegan will feature and maybe Beirne and JOD.
Regardless, the core of the team will be gradually changed. There's a few fringe players really putting in some great shifts. So, the coaches will be very busy watching the upcoming games and picking the squad and wider squad.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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