Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Lord Glentoran · 12-09-2018 5:01pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The Quiet Man Greenway group has stepped up their advocacy actions encouraging all members to contact the local County Councillors in Galway to change the minds of those who voted no last year, to yes on Sept 24th when the feasibility study option is again put forward

I've put together a map showing the location of each Councillor and if they voted yes or no the last time

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/athenry-to-sligo-greenway-council_244567

The Quiet Man, is it now? Begob and bejapers, who dares insult a Danaher, now?

12-09-2018 5:39pm

voz es wrote: »

An that is what is so awful about that greenway, those who want it as not the ones who have been affected by if not being there. International and influence outside of this region is what is driving the campaign so that they can go down for a spin once or twice. It really is something very sad to see that you and people like you DaCor refuse to look at the affect of your actions on the region as a whole.

As opposed to what? Rusting iron and rotting sleepers?

IE can make use of the alignment as and when it becomes viable to run trains on it again. Its not currently viable and won't be for several decades so why not make use of the alignment for a greenway in the interim

voz es · 12-09-2018 5:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

As opposed to what? Rusting iron and rotting sleepers?

IE can make use of the alignment as and when it becomes viable to run trains on it again. Its not currently viable and won't be for several decades so why not make use of the alignment for a greenway in the interim

Ah what are ya on about your part of a group trying to stop a feasability study for the line being reopened. Just would ya think about what ye are doing down there!

marno21 · 12-09-2018 5:49pm

voz es wrote: »

Ah what are ya on about your part of a group trying to stop a feasability study for the line being reopened. Just would ya think about what ye are doing down there!

I don't see why anyone in favour of the greenway would object to the feasibility study. It will almost definitively kill any chance of the railway reopening in the short-medium term

eastwest · 12-09-2018 6:32pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The pressure is piling on for the feasibility study

https://www.tuamherald.ie/news/roundup/articles/2018/09/12/4161766-rally-to-pile-on-pressure-ahead-of-greenway-vote/

There is real anger building on the ground about this filibustering by a handful of councillors trying to block the feasibility study. It would seem that they prefer to remain in blissful ignorance with regards to the potential uses of the asset.
It would appear that at least two of them will be turfed out at the next local elections. The citizens are still smarting at the loss of the Apple project and they won't take another wipe out lying down.
I'd hate to be a wot councillor knocking on doors in athenry or Tuam next may!

CatInABox · 12-09-2018 6:42pm

marno21 wrote: »

I don't see why anyone in favour of the greenway would object to the feasibility study. It will almost definitively kill any chance of the railway reopening in the short-medium term

I'm not sure, but would the study delay any greenway to the point that they could miss out on the greenway funding that's currently going around?

eastwest · 12-09-2018 7:01pm

CatInABox wrote: »

I'm not sure, but would the study delay any greenway to the point that they could miss out on the greenway funding that's currently going around?

A lot of people around there believe that the railway review is designed to delay and frustrate the greenway study. After all, despite it being a red line issue for Sean Canney during the formation of government, and promised within six months, it still hasn't comnenced.

12-09-2018 7:21pm

voz es wrote: »

Ah what are ya on about your part of a group trying to stop a feasability study for the line being reopened. Just would ya think about what ye are doing down there!

Eh? When has anyone, anywhere said they don't want that rail review done..... Apart from Canney who wants it delayed as long as possible because he knows how poorly it will show the viability of extending that line.

It's actually the exact opposite in terms of feasibility studies. The 10k members (growing by several hundred a day) are actively campaigning for Galway County Council to apply for funding (53 mil available) to assess the viability of utilising the alignment for a greenway until such time as its needed for rail.

We would also welcome the (ridiculously late) completion of the rail review feasibility study which will show (as other reports have already shown) that the alignment is worth protecting but that its not a sensible use of govt funds, at this time, to extend the line any further

If you have evidence to the contrary for anything I've said above, by all means, share it with the class

12-09-2018 7:23pm

CatInABox wrote: »

I'm not sure, but would the study delay any greenway to the point that they could miss out on the greenway funding that's currently going around?

The applications for funding are only being accepted for 1-2 months if I recall.

The study is a delaying action. Any reference to waiting for it, is a delaying action

Muckyboots · 12-09-2018 10:59pm

voz es wrote: »

An that is what is so awful about that greenway, those who want it as not the ones who have been affected by if not being there. International and influence outside of this region is what is driving the campaign so that they can go down for a spin once or twice. It really is something very sad to see that you and people like you DaCor refuse to look at the affect of your actions on the region as a whole.

You do realise that you wrote this as a reply to a link posted to an editorial in the local paper ? - or were you trying to be ironic?

13-09-2018 10:04am

Greenway development will not prevent rail re-opening, confirms CIE

CIE has confirmed that the development of the Quiet Man Greenway along the Tuam to Athenry railway line will not prevent it from opening the rail line again for train use, if such services were ever reintroduced.

See link for full story

http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/103000/greenway-development-will-not-prevent-rail-re-opening-confirms-cie

eastwest · 13-09-2018 10:26am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Greenway development will not prevent rail re-opening, confirms CIE

CIE has confirmed that the development of the Quiet Man Greenway along the Tuam to Athenry railway line will not prevent it from opening the rail line again for train use, if such services were ever reintroduced.

See link for full story

http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/103000/greenway-development-will-not-prevent-rail-re-opening-confirms-cie

BUT THEY HAVE THE LUAS UP IN DUBLIN!

13-09-2018 2:27pm

Greenway does not threaten future rail services, says Cannon

East Galway Minister Ciaran Cannon has received confirmation from CIE that the licence for the development of a greenway on CIE lands can be revoked at any time if the Board has alternative plans for the lands.

The Minister has said that Galway’s county councillors need to bear this fact in mind ahead of the forthcoming vote on a feasibility study for the Quiet Man Greenway.

See link for full story

http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/102951/greenway-does-not-threaten-future-rail-services-says-cannon

what_traffic · 13-09-2018 2:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/102951/greenway-does-not-threaten-future-rail-services-says-cannon

a lot of coverage in the Galway Advertiser re Greenway today. Front page and Editorial coverage

14-09-2018 11:12am

Meanwhile, in Tipperary, logic prevails

https://www.tipperarystar.ie/news/news/335811/breaking-thurles-clonmel-greenway-gets-support.html

westtip · 14-09-2018 12:46pm

West on Track on tour in upstate New York

https://youtu.be/6lutNECOZFw

whisky_galore · 14-09-2018 3:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Meanwhile, in Tipperary, logic prevails

https://www.tipperarystar.ie/news/news/335811/breaking-thurles-clonmel-greenway-gets-support.html

Most of it is obliterated, good luck with that.

Isambard · 14-09-2018 3:32pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

Most of it is obliterated, good luck with that.

I'd agree, what with N8 improvements, the M8 and the Clonmel bypass, there can't be a lot left.

14-09-2018 5:01pm

Galway COUNTY COUNCIL TO APPLY FOR CONNEMARA GREENWAY FUNDING

https://galwaybayfm.ie/county-council-to-apply-for-connemara-greenway-funding/

That takes away the excuse the Connemara councillors had for not supporting the greenway from Athenry to Milltown

Another step closer

JCX BXC · 14-09-2018 6:21pm

On the train between Athenry and Ennis at the moment, it's more akin to a packed DART than a ghost line tbh.

Numbers must be rising to a level of 'irish rail' sustainability?

marno21 · 14-09-2018 6:39pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

On the train between Athenry and Ennis at the moment, it's more akin to a packed DART than a ghost line tbh.

Numbers must be rising to a level of 'irish rail' sustainability?

If it wasn't full on a Friday evening there would be no hope. Plenty of returning professionals and students on that train.

As I said in a recent post, if we are keeping these lines, run a decent service and for the same subvention you get a large social dividend. The same rule should be applied to LJ-Waterford & Killonan-Ballybrophy. If you run 2 trains a day at low speed you won't have any usage. 5/6 trains a day and you get multiples of users whilst still paying the same wages to the gatekeepers, same cost of maintenance etc.

JCX BXC · 14-09-2018 6:42pm

marno21 wrote: »

If it wasn't full on a Friday evening there would be no hope. Plenty of returning professionals and students on that train.

As I said in a recent post, if we are keeping these lines, run a decent service and for the same subvention you get a large social dividend. The same rule should be applied to LJ-Waterford & Killonan-Ballybrophy. If you run 2 trains a day at low speed you won't have any usage. 5/6 trains a day and you get multiples of users whilst still paying the same wages to the gatekeepers, same cost of maintenance etc.

In essence you're suggesting 'economies of scale'.

marno21 · 14-09-2018 6:46pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

In essence you're suggesting 'economies of scale'.

Indeed. If these lines are being kept open it should either be full useful service or else close them. No more of this keeping lines open for the sake of it which benefits no one and costs a small fortune.

marno21 · 15-09-2018 3:00pm

Shane Ross wrote:

I recently briefed Government on how I plan to give effect to the Government’s commitments in relation to the review. In this regard a process for an independent financial and economic evaluation of the WRC phase 2 is now underway that will also include broad consultation. I expect that Irish Rail and my Department will progress this over the coming months and I will then report to Government with the findings.

Lets see how long this takes.

16-09-2018 1:49am

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/locals-react-businesses-scenic-kerry-13247494

Cahersiveen in Kerry is on its knees, economically speaking, and the locals know that a greenway is their best bet to rejuvenate the local economy and halt the decline of their rural way of life.

East Galway can benefit in a similar manner with a greenway between Athenry and Milltown, but without a feasibility study, nothing will change. The vote for this study comes before Galway County Council on 24th Sep and many are using the map below to contact (text, email, post) their local councillors to discuss the issue

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/athenry-to-sligo-greenway-council_244567

eastwest · 16-09-2018 8:41am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/locals-react-businesses-scenic-kerry-13247494

Cahersiveen in Kerry is on its knees, economically speaking, and the locals know that a greenway is their best bet to rejuvenate the local economy and halt the decline of their rural way of life.

East Galway can benefit in a similar manner with a greenway between Athenry and Milltown, but without a feasibility study, nothing will change. The vote for this study comes before Galway County Council on 24th Sep and many are using the map below to contact (text, email, post) their local councillors to discuss the issue

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/athenry-to-sligo-greenway-council_244567

Galway is peculiar in that it is effectively two counties, West and East.
The connemara councillors will vote against the motion to ensure (as they see it) that all tourism money goes to the west of the county. A few of the local councillors in East Galway who would normally be expected to vote for their own supporters' interests are members of West on track and are firmly set against any proposal that doesn't include a train of some sort.
I therefore reckon that the motion will be defeated, and that the consequent upsurge of anger from the population will change the political landscape of East Galway for generations. The anti greenway councillors will be wiped out, as will their main cheerleading TD.
But the hated greenway will have been stopped. They have the LUAS up in Dublin, you see.

Sam Russell · 16-09-2018 12:32pm

How popular is the greenway from Mullingar to Athlone? Is it always busy, or is the traffic sparse?

It might give an indication as to how popular the Tuam to Athenry might be.

eastwest · 16-09-2018 12:34pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

How popular is the greenway from Mullingar to Athlone? Is it always busy, or is the traffic sparse?

It might give an indication as to how popular the Tuam to Athenry might be.

Busy at times but not as busy as waterford. It won't really come into its own until the entire Dublin Galway greenway is comlete.

TCDStudent1 · 16-09-2018 1:00pm

voz es wrote: »

An that is what is so awful about that greenway, those who want it as not the ones who have been affected by if not being there. International and influence outside of this region is what is driving the campaign so that they can go down for a spin once or twice. It really is something very sad to see that you and people like you DaCor refuse to look at the affect of your actions on the region as a whole.

I don't get this - what makes you think it's influence outside the region? I'm from the area and see lots of local people with stickers on the car supporting the greenway. A quick browse of the Facebook group also reveals many mutual friends etc.

In saying that, I also think there can be some misleading info from the greenway side. Ciaran Cannon had a Facebook post recently where he said there have been no trains in 42 years on the line. I know he meant passenger trains but still he should specify that. I clearly remember a time in the 90's when a freight train passed on Wednesdays and Saturdays, making Cannon's post incorrect.
Also, there was a demonstration some months back advocating support for the greenway. Some posters on here suggest there was a massive crowd - there wasn't. It'll be interesting to see if there's a big crowd on 23rd.

I don't know about athenry but tuam is desperately in need of a greenway(regardless of whether it comes from the railway line or not).

Muckyboots · 16-09-2018 2:06pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

How popular is the greenway from Mullingar to Athlone? Is it always busy, or is the traffic sparse?

It might give an indication as to how popular the Tuam to Athenry might be.

Within a short time there will be a 250% increase in people using the line as an amenity, if it's converted to a Greenway.

17-09-2018 1:18am

Sam Russell wrote: »

How popular is the greenway from Mullingar to Athlone? Is it always busy, or is the traffic sparse?

It might give an indication as to how popular the Tuam to Athenry might be.

The route cost 4 million to build

It was extended from Garrycastle to the White Gates on the Ballymahon Road at a cost of €580,000

"Data from the counters installed along the new section of greenway shows that the current average daily total is in excess of 700 users, with a peak level to date of 1,521 users on the last Sunday in March,"

More recent figures, but varying depending on the source in the article, are available here

Needless to say, far more users than ever used the train on that line

Del.Monte · 17-09-2018 7:54am

Deleted User wrote: »

The route cost 4 million to build

It was extended from Garrycastle to the White Gates on the Ballymahon Road at a cost of €580,000

"Data from the counters installed along the new section of greenway shows that the current average daily total is in excess of 700 users, with a peak level to date of 1,521 users on the last Sunday in March,"

More recent figures, but varying depending on the source in the article, are available here

Needless to say, far more users than ever used the train on that line

Rather hard to use the line given the almost non-existent timetable and you could make that argument about the DART lines if you time the only trains of the day at almost Midnight. :rolleyes:

Muckyboots · 17-09-2018 8:55am

Del.Monte wrote: »

Rather hard to use the line given the almost non-existent timetable and you could make that argument about the DART lines if you time the only trains of the day at almost Midnight. :rolleyes:

There is a very simple issue for rail advocates to address, and they never do. Irish Rail do not want to operate loss making lines. It's the most basic of viability appraisal. What do you propose with this in mind? Governments come and go and a willingness to subevent will ebb and flow depending on the ideology. Simple business operational planning means IR wouldn't touch them with the railcar equivalent of a barge pole. Force us.. and we'll show you how much money we can lose. Privatise the lines?

Del.Monte · 17-09-2018 11:08am

Muckyboots wrote: »

There is a very simple issue for rail advocates to address, and they never do. Irish Rail do not want to operate loss making lines. It's the most basic of viability appraisal. What do you propose with this in mind? Governments come and go and a willingness to subevent will ebb and flow depending on the ideology. Simple business operational planning means IR wouldn't touch them with the railcar equivalent of a barge pole. Force us.. and we'll show you how much money we can lose. Privatise the lines?

In case you don't know all CIE's rail routes lose money and I seem to remember that years ago McKinsey & Co., pointed out the greatest losses were incurred on the busiest lines. As for answers, CIE/IE are not one and shouldn't be allowed to make any important decisions - the new platform at Limerick Junction being a case in point.

Isambard · 17-09-2018 11:10am

but losses on a busy line are offset by the other benefits that accrue across a lot of passengers.

Del.Monte · 17-09-2018 11:14am

Isambard wrote: »

but losses on a busy line are offset by the other benefits that accrue across a lot of passengers.

Agreed but the previous poster stated that CIE don't like operating loss-making routes and that's the point I was addressing.

17-09-2018 12:16pm

Galway County Councillor Michael Connolly went on galway Bay FM this morning to complain about receiving texts, emails and letters, saying one particular constituent contacted a number of councillors saying he would not vote for them (different EA's) if they didn't support the feasibility study proposal

Queue a flood of text's to the show calling out the Councillor for not wanting to talk to constituents, not answering texts, calls and emails and ignoring the desires of the local electorate who are demanding a yes vote on the 24th of Sept when the feasibility proposal comes before Galway County Council for a vote again.

He then touted the WOT rubbish going so far as to talk about the line going from Athenry, to Tuam, to Sligo and on to Derry, and blatantly lied when challenged by text on the numbers WOT said would use the line.

Hilarious stuff but the one side benefit of it was that Keith couldn't cope with the volume of texts coming into the show so will be doing more coverage over the next few days to spread it out, yay more coverage

Muckyboots · 17-09-2018 12:50pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

In case you don't know all CIE's rail routes lose money and I seem to remember that years ago McKinsey & Co., pointed out the greatest losses were incurred on the busiest lines. As for answers, CIE/IE are not one and shouldn't be allowed to make any important decisions - the new platform at Limerick Junction being a case in point.

CIE/IR aren't allowed to make strategic decisions and yet they have a statutory responsibility not to turn a loss? Remembering "years ago" will solve nothing.

Del.Monte · 17-09-2018 1:01pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

CIE/IR aren't allowed to make strategic decisions and yet they have a statutory responsibility not to turn a loss? Remembering "years ago" will solve nothing.

I don't imagine anything has changed regarding which lines lose the most and CIE staggering from one crisis to the next is not the solution.

Ray Bloody Purchase · 17-09-2018 1:49pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

CIE/IR aren't allowed to make strategic decisions and yet they have a statutory responsibility not to turn a loss? Remembering "years ago" will solve nothing.

Is it not the NTA calling all the shots now?

eastwest · 17-09-2018 2:42pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

In case you don't know all CIE's rail routes lose money and I seem to remember that years ago McKinsey & Co., pointed out the greatest losses were incurred on the busiest lines. As for answers, CIE/IE are not one and shouldn't be allowed to make any important decisions - the new platform at Limerick Junction being a case in point.

Of course the greatest losses are incurred on the busiest lines, and of course a lot (but not all by any means) of public transport loses money, but that's not the point. The real comparator is the subsidy per passenger journey, still around €50 per passenger journey in the case of Ennis Athenry and over €400 per passenger journey in Ballybrophy.
It is blatantly obvious that if you gave any bus company even €10 per pasenger journey on Ennis Athenry they could provide a much more effective and faster service on the route. 20% of all public transport funding goes to rail, but rail only moves 1% of people. The subsidy therefore needs to be directed to areas of greatest need, where volumes are high and where the economy benefits directly from the subsidy.
By the way, I see that the figures for replacement bus services nationally have been made public, that is the provision of bus services where trains are not running for some reason. Ennis-Athenry accrued a further million euro in costs in this area last year, another €7.70 per passenger journey on top of all the other losses.

Lord Glentoran · 17-09-2018 5:18pm

eastwest wrote: »

Busy at times but not as busy as waterford. It won't really come into its own until the entire Dublin Galway greenway is comlete.

Compromising the operation of the railway section between Athlone and Galway, if one canvassed option backed by objecting landowners to the existing scheme comes through.

17-09-2018 5:18pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Rather hard to use the line given the almost non-existent timetable and you could make that argument about the DART lines if you time the only trains of the day at almost Midnight. :rolleyes:

Well, the closure of Broadstone station and the re-routing of almost all the other passenger services via Tullamore, killed the passenger numbers on the line.

At least that line has a better chance of reopening to rail traffic than the WRC as it could reduce congestion on the Kildare line.

Lord Glentoran · 17-09-2018 5:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, the closure of Broadstone station and the re-routing of almost all the other passenger services via Tullamore, killed the passenger numbers on the line.

At least that line has a better chance of reopening to rail traffic than the WRC as it could reduce congestion on the Kildare line.

The railway between Mullingar and Athlone is lost forever to commuter and inter city traffic.

Purely of course in my personal opinion, but having a cycle path on the rail alignment means land owners for any alternative route will make the cost of constructing an alternative path too onerous. The route speed on comparative railways next to cycle paths is restricted to twenty-five miles per hour, which at best would allow a heritage-type operation. Given the cold climate in the Republic for industrial heritage, it is difficult to see even this happening.

I would love to be wrong on all these points, but I don’t believe that I am.

westtip · 17-09-2018 5:43pm

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

The railway between Mullingar and Athlone is lost forever to commuter and inter city traffic.

Purely of course in my personal opinion, but having a cycle path on the rail alignment means land owners for any alternative route will make the cost of constructing an alternative path too onerous. The route speed on comparative railways next to cycle paths is restricted to twenty-five miles per hour, which at best would allow a heritage-type operation. Given the cold climate in the Republic for industrial heritage, it is difficult to see even this happening.

I would love to be wrong on all these points, but I don’t believe that I am.

Strangely LG I have advocated the re-opening of Athlone Mullingar as a railway many times and do believe it would make sense, I don't take your comment about restricting train services to 25 mph per hour due to greenway running alongside it as being an absolute necessity. A decent fence would negate this restriction. Also what about express trains that clatter through stations in the UK and all the good folk have is a yellow line on the platform and an announcement to say fast train approaching. Certainly Athlone Mullingar represented probably the best opportunity for train services to the west to be improved and for decent commuter services from the Midlands, and in fact for freight direct to Dublin Docks, sadly it didn't go anywhere near Claremorris so was never on the agenda for West on Track.

westtip · 17-09-2018 5:46pm

eastwest wrote: »

Busy at times but not as busy as waterford. It won't really come into its own until the entire Dublin Galway greenway is comlete.

And in a way I don't believe Tuam Athenry will come its own until the greenway is extended all the way to Sligo and onto Enniskillen and connects with the Dublin Galway greenway probably in Athenry.

With the attitude of the dinosaurs in Mayo coco though that could be 10 years away.

eastwest · 17-09-2018 6:33pm

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

The railway between Mullingar and Athlone is lost forever to commuter and inter city traffic.

Purely of course in my personal opinion, but having a cycle path on the rail alignment means land owners for any alternative route will make the cost of constructing an alternative path too onerous. The route speed on comparative railways next to cycle paths is restricted to twenty-five miles per hour, which at best would allow a heritage-type operation. Given the cold climate in the Republic for industrial heritage, it is difficult to see even this happening.

I would love to be wrong on all these points, but I don’t believe that I am.

There's plenty of room on most of the athlone mullingar alignment to build a railway line and a new greenway, should that be necessary.
Where additional slivers of land might need to be acquired, landowners won't have much difficulty since these are along the edge of holdings and not cutting farms or fields in two.

end of the road · 17-09-2018 7:22pm

eastwest wrote: »

Of course the greatest losses are incurred on the busiest lines, and of course a lot (but not all by any means) of public transport loses money, but that's not the point. The real comparator is the subsidy per passenger journey, still around €50 per passenger journey in the case of Ennis Athenry and over €400 per passenger journey in Ballybrophy.
It is blatantly obvious that if you gave any bus company even €10 per pasenger journey on Ennis Athenry they could provide a much more effective and faster service on the route.

they could, but that isn't any good to the rail users who would be using the existing bus services if they wanted to travel by bus.

eastwest wrote: »

20% of all public transport funding goes to rail, but rail only moves 1% of people.

It can move a hell of a lot more people if as a country, an integrated road-rail solution was the norm instead of a road centric one which isn't sustainible and which is going to cost us long term.

eastwest wrote: »

The subsidy therefore needs to be directed to areas of greatest need, where volumes are high and where the economy benefits directly from the subsidy.

that is what is already being done. the majority of the subsidy is going to areas of high volume, because they have more services and at a higher frequencye

eastwest · 17-09-2018 7:57pm

end of the road wrote: »

It can move a hell of a lot more people if as a country, an integrated road-rail solution was the norm instead of a road centric one which isn't sustainible and which is going to cost us long term.

In the case of the western rail trail/corridor, the people just aren't there.
If they were, the rail lines would never have closed in the first place.

17-09-2018 8:31pm

If you want to see rail user numbers increased, double track all the routes in and out of Dublin, Galway to Dublin being a prime example

Would avoid the farcical situation of stopping in the middle of nowhere to allow other trains to pass and would allow for an expanded timetable

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

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