New Defender - yah or nah?

pburns · 16-09-2019 10:24pm #1

Surprised in a way no thread on this already.

In two minds, honestly think it will be overpriced & a pure fashion icon. Despite it's capabilities most owners will be urban poseurs. A Lancruiser or Hi-lux is probably the spiritual successor to the original Defender (in many ways the Toyota legend has far surpassed Land Rover). Even the Discovery Sport is probably a less pretentious alternative.

However..another side of me really likes it, especially the 90. Maybe when they release the commercial versions it'll really earn it's stripes.

(BTW I have an old 4x4 Nissan pickup hack myself. It's a giant wheelbarrow & has even pulled an old chain-harrow recently for small bit of re-seeding.)

krissovo · 16-09-2019 10:36pm

Big thumbs up from me!

It’s modern and retro at the same time, but I would need to see one in the flesh and check out the mechanicals. Hopefully it would stick to the old recipe of simple and rugged mechanics with a galvanized shell.

There is a Toyota FJ Cruiser vibe going on which I grew very fond of when I lived in the States.

Atlantic Dawn · 16-09-2019 10:54pm

Yes can see Toyota FJ Cruiser in it.

They should make a more basic rugged version with not as much technology in it, can't see it taking the abuse of the old Defenders.

Voodoomelon · 16-09-2019 11:06pm

I like it a lot and I don't usually like Jeeps.

As above, I reckon it will be a lot more fragile than the original.

Jude13 · 17-09-2019 8:20am

After years spending a fortune on the electrics and air suspension on land rovers I gave up. They were some machines when they worked but you were always waiting for the next warning light and spending your holiday fund on the next fault which the LR mechanics usually took months to diagnose the real problem.

I have had two toyota's in the past five years, the landcruiser's little sister (the Colorado/150 series) and the full blown land cruiser (amazon) which blow the LR out of the water for reliability and cost.

DuckSlice · 17-09-2019 9:34am

Its a yah-nah from me. Looks good from some angles and not so good from others. I imagine it would look good in full off-road spec.

zilog_jones · 17-09-2019 9:54am

I don't get where it's supposed to fit in the Land Rover range now - the previous Defender was purely utilitarian, and now it's not. So besides the SWB version, what makes this different from say, a Discovery?

biko · 17-09-2019 9:59am

What it looks like etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHH5wnM8cvw

josip · 17-09-2019 10:33am

Jude13 wrote: »

After years spending a fortune on the electrics and air suspension on land rovers I gave up. They were some machines when they worked but you were always waiting for the next warning light and spending your holiday fund on the next fault which the LR mechanics usually took months to diagnose the real problem.

I have had two toyota's in the past five years, the landcruiser's little sister (the Colorado/150 series) and the full blown land cruiser (amazon) which blow the LR out of the water for reliability and cost.

Yep, if you want to go into the bush...

Jude13 · 17-09-2019 10:45am

Mainly used commuting and bringing the family around. I do use it camping/off roading. On road the Toyota is a beaut, though the engine on the LR 3 I had was the v8 with was lovely, when there were no warning lights.

Jude13 · 17-09-2019 10:50am

Damn it, after watching that video its really growing on me

R.O.R · 17-09-2019 12:45pm

I like, but it's a big departure from the old Discovery and I'm also not sure where it's going to fit.

Already had interest in it, so got some timelines.
First models appearing in showrooms March 2020 and they will all be 240ps S model 110's
200ps models available from June 2020
Defender 90 will be available later in 2020. Commercial 90 will be late 2020, possibly 2021.

No pricing yet, but not going to be cheap. I doubt it will hold it's value like the outgoing model either.

Ubbquittious · 17-09-2019 1:10pm

A defender with a PRNDL box is all sorts of wrong

Bluefoam · 17-09-2019 3:40pm

This thing is nothing like an FJ Cruiser. I've owned one & it's like driving an incredibly capable offroad van, I've also owned & customised a Jeep Wrangler... When you bust the bumper, you replace it with a metal one. When the suspension blows, you swap it out for a raised aftermarket variation. You drive it over and through things...

The New Defender has air sispension... Never ever take it off road. One day it will blow and cost you thousands to fix. This thing doesn't have a ladder chassis, it has a tub, derived from the Range Rover, with an extra gusset occassionally... DO NOT USE OFFROAD... you have any kind of ding and you're fooked. It doesn't have a hose down interior. Bumpers are colour matched (lol) not on an offroad vehicle. This is a pretentious soccer mom car, overpriced and less than useful. Is it ca[pable of being driven on a gravel track, yes, can it get through deep puddles, yes, can it manage some offroading, sure... should you do any of those things? no, never, neh!

I did a track day in Dubai with Jaguar & part of it was to try some Landrovers on a custom built offroad course... I took out a Freelander, with 3" bullet proof glass and full bombproof armour. It had allot of electronic gadgetry & it would drive itself down a 45degree slope without human input... but you had to know and understand a series of button pushes and sequences to make it do anything... We had great fun in it, but laughed at the suggestion of actually taking it offroad. Too complex, too delicate & too expensive to mess with...

Del2005 · 17-09-2019 3:59pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

This thing is nothing like an FJ Cruiser. I've owned one & it's like driving an incredibly capable offroad van, I've also owned & customised a Jeep Wrangler... When you bust the bumper, you replace it with a metal one. When the suspension blows, you swap it out for a raised aftermarket variation. You drive it over and through things...

The New Defender has air sispension... Never ever take it off road. One day it will blow and cost you thousands to fix. This thing doesn't have a ladder chassis, it has a tub, derived from the Range Rover, with an extra gusset occassionally... DO NOT USE OFFROAD... you have any kind of ding and you're fooked. It doesn't have a hose down interior. Bumpers are colour matched (lol) not on an offroad vehicle. This is a pretentious soccer mom car, overpriced and less than useful. Is it ca[pable of being driven on a gravel track, yes, can it get through deep puddles, yes, can it manage some offroading, sure... should you do any of those things? no, never, neh!

I did a track day in Dubai with Jaguar & part of it was to try some Landrovers on a custom built offroad course... I took out a Freelander, with 3" bullet proof glass and full bombproof armour. It had allot of electronic gadgetry & it would drive itself down a 45degree slope without human input... but you had to know and understand a series of button pushes and sequences to make it do anything... We had great fun in it, but laughed at the suggestion of actually taking it offroad. Too complex, too delicate & too expensive to mess with...

There's no market for proper off road vehicles in most countries, you can't buy the proper Land Cruiser in Europe, so why would a company spend millions developing a vehicle with no market? Look at the tyres on any 4x4 and you'll see what they are used for, not many have proper off road tyres and I'd hazard a guess that a good few that do are only for show.

Marcusm · 17-09-2019 4:34pm

It’s a Kia Soul with bits added on!

krissovo · 17-09-2019 4:44pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

This thing is nothing like an FJ Cruiser. I've owned one & it's like driving an incredibly capable offroad van

I owned one too, they are soooo similar. Big plastic bumpers, front bonnet ratio to window, wing mirrors, interior, white roof, door shape etc. They were ok off road but nothing to write home about when stock and compared to the old defender.

Bluefoam · 17-09-2019 5:01pm

krissovo wrote: »

I owned one too, they are soooo similar. Big plastic bumpers, front bonnet ratio to window, wing mirrors, interior, white roof, door shape etc. They were ok off road but nothing to write home about when stock and compared to the old defender.

Depends on what you do with them... FJ was the most capable offroader (out of the box) I've ever driven & I've driven allot. The old Defender was and is a fantastic overlander, but because of its powerplants, dated suspension, leaky body it is allot of fun but not as capable for more extreme activities.

krissovo · 17-09-2019 5:11pm

Ah I see desert off road, completely agree with you. They were great on the loose sand and gravel, rocky trails & bouldering was a different story.

Bluefoam · 17-09-2019 5:28pm

Rock trails... this road was about two kilometers through a mountain pass in Oman. Took us about three hours to navigate... FJ not in scene as it is out front. Rocks got bigger and more difficult to get over as we went on. Locals told us to turn back. Had to physically jump on the side of vehicles at stages to rock them over boulders. Apparently the rocks had washed over the cliff face during recent rain.

Lofidelity · 17-09-2019 6:26pm

Does this mean the Wrangler has the hardcore off road market to itself?
Theres a new shape one driving around Dublin 2 and its really growing on me. Matte grey and wide wheels.

Bluefoam · 17-09-2019 6:43pm

Lofidelity wrote: »

Does this mean the Wrangler has the hardcore off road market to itself?
Theres a new shape one driving around Dublin 2 and its really growing on me. Matte grey and wide wheels.

There's lots of capable pickups... The G Wagon is still good but very expensive... The Wrangler seems to be the way to go for a serious solid axel off-roader. I had the JK & it was ****e on road, bit savage off-road. I loved every minute of it.

TrailerBob · 17-09-2019 10:27pm

I hate to say it but I kinda like it for what it is... The 5 year old in me likes the Tonka truck appeal, and the designers have done a decent job. The tech list is impressive, But the question is what is it?

You won't see many if any at the mart with the cattle box.. nor will you find them with ESB logos or the like on them. They're not a utility truck. They're another fashion label... Double cab pickups are the darling in Ireland at the minute, and LR aren't interested in that market. I too am a Landcruiser driver, and love the versatility, reliability, toughness and day to day ease of use it brings. I just don't have to think about it. This new LR has too much thinking to be done and it wouldn't tempt me in any way to switch.

corkgsxr · 17-09-2019 10:31pm

Too tonka toy for me

Lashing some checkerplate pattern on it to try tie it to the original. Meh

17-09-2019 10:33pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

This thing is nothing like an FJ Cruiser. I've owned one & it's like driving an incredibly capable offroad van, I've also owned & customised a Jeep Wrangler... When you bust the bumper, you replace it with a metal one. When the suspension blows, you swap it out for a raised aftermarket variation. You drive it over and through things...

The New Defender has air sispension... Never ever take it off road. One day it will blow and cost you thousands to fix. This thing doesn't have a ladder chassis, it has a tub, derived from the Range Rover, with an extra gusset occassionally... DO NOT USE OFFROAD... you have any kind of ding and you're fooked. It doesn't have a hose down interior. Bumpers are colour matched (lol) not on an offroad vehicle. This is a pretentious soccer mom car, overpriced and less than useful. Is it ca[pable of being driven on a gravel track, yes, can it get through deep puddles, yes, can it manage some offroading, sure... should you do any of those things? no, never, neh!

I did a track day in Dubai with Jaguar & part of it was to try some Landrovers on a custom built offroad course... I took out a Freelander, with 3" bullet proof glass and full bombproof armour. It had allot of electronic gadgetry & it would drive itself down a 45degree slope without human input... but you had to know and understand a series of button pushes and sequences to make it do anything... We had great fun in it, but laughed at the suggestion of actually taking it offroad. Too complex, too delicate & too expensive to mess with...

Think you are being a bit ott. The new defender is built from scratch it’s nit based on anything. It will be excellent off road, possibly one of the best off roaders ever made.

Zubeneschamali · 17-09-2019 10:39pm

pburns wrote: »

A Lancruiser or Hi-lux is probably the spiritual successor to the original Defender (in many ways the Toyota legend has far surpassed Land Rover). Even the Discovery Sport is probably a less pretentious alternative.

I no more need a Land Rover then a JCB, and the JCB would be better in a crash, so...

Capra · 17-09-2019 10:44pm

Surely it is just going to take sales away from Land Rover and Jaguars other SUVs rather than capturing a new sector of the market? I can't see anyone who wasn't already considering some sort of JLR product looking to buy one of these. They really don't have a clue what they are doing and it's little wonder they are haemorrhaging money.

A utility vehicle would not cannibalise its own market and there would be a chance that they could sell some to farmers looking for a change. Now I know farmers are often said to not be adventurous, but I've seen enough of them buy Ford Rangers in the last couple of years to know that they can be tempted out of a landcruiser if they like the look of something.

Capra · 17-09-2019 10:49pm

Lukas Prehistoric Sushi wrote: »

Think you are being a bit ott. The new defender is built from scratch it’s nit based on anything. It will be excellent off road, possibly one of the best off roaders ever made.

Ah come here. That is nonsense. There are no serious off roader users even looking at these. Sure the Discovery used to be very popular with the off road enthusiasts but since the Discovery 3 (I think) came out they are never used in that scene. Yet the Land Rover marketing bull**** will tell you that it far surpasses any previous models. People who use off road vehicles have a very specific set of requirements and this meets very few of those. Anyone who turns up to an off road meet in one of these will be laughed (and towed) out of the place with some very expensive repairs required.

Wailin · 18-09-2019 12:06am

Lukas Prehistoric Sushi wrote: »

Think you are being a bit ott. The new defender is built from scratch it’s nit based on anything. It will be excellent off road, possibly one of the best off roaders ever made.

Seriously? No chance will it be one of the best off roaders ever made ffs! He talks a lot of sense actually. It's no different to the last discovery with it's fancy air suspension that's nothing but a gimmick.

road_high · 18-09-2019 10:02am

What’s it going to cost? A commercial 3 door Land Cruiser is around €45k I think
It looks smaller than one of those

Jude13 · 18-09-2019 10:18am

Does he compare it in the video to an FJ Cruiser? which are the 150 series with a different shell. Basically a prado or Irish version LC.

Though all of the earlier mentioned vehicles, toyota and jeep, are well more than enough for 99% of the target buyers, so they are just ignoring farmers and search and rescue, who can by a much cheaper Hilux double cab or a Fortunner.

jochenstacker · 18-09-2019 12:28pm

The Australians have a saying. If you want to go into the Outback, take a Landrover. If you want to come back, take a Landcruiser.

krissovo · 18-09-2019 1:20pm

What will be interesting is if the British Army test a variant or LR build a mil spec version, they have kept Landrover relevant for years. The wolf version of the defender was actually very reliable and had decent performance on and off road.

Stallingrad · 18-09-2019 1:21pm

It was always going to be a massive design hurdle, how do you re-invent a niche dinosaur and still make money?

I think what they have delivered is what the market now demands, and while some may feel it is too close to other JLR products in time it may once again be seen as something special.

I just wish that JLR would make their cars reliable. 20 years ago I worked in the middle east, and they would never venture into the dessert in a LR, it was always Nissan patrol or Landcruiser. It appears that nothing has changed which is a disgrace.

Bluefoam · 18-09-2019 2:36pm

Stallingrad wrote: »

It was always going to be a massive design hurdle, how do you re-invent a niche dinosaur and still make money?

I think what they have delivered is what the market now demands, and while some may feel it is too close to other JLR products in time it may once again be seen as something special.

I just wish that JLR would make their cars reliable. 20 years ago I worked in the middle east, and they would never venture into the dessert in a LR, it was always Nissan patrol or Landcruiser. It appears that nothing has changed which is a disgrace.

They still make the original Patrol especially for the Middle East (not cheap comparitively). The new Patrol is bloated and used for delivering kids to school and queuing at the McDonalds drive through. When Toyota announced they were discontinuing the FJ, they bought up an additional year of production just for the Gulf region. The FJ is the most capable and suitable car for the desert. Lots of people have Jeeps of all models, they are great fun, very capable & you can make them your own. If you have loads of money, you can own a landcruiser for offroading, imense 4x4's & luxurious, but expensive. Litterally no one drives any Land Rover or Range Rover in the desert... it is a silly idea and it's not what they are best at. They are designed for the higway and getting out of at the hotel valet.

Pickups are also hugely popular in the Middle East... F150's, Hilux, Rams, Rangers, Old Style Patrols...

It's often commented on that when you watch the news, you will always see militants and armys in pickups with a big read 'Toyota' across the tail gate... theres a reason for that, they are incredibly capable.

The Old Defender is still popular for expedition and overlanding... because the parts are easily available across the Middle East, Africa & the rest of the world, but the only reason they would be taken into extreme offroad conditions would be for nostalgia... They are capable but others are just more capable.

The new defender is unlikely to fit the criteria of a modern army, unless just used for ferrying passengers on road.

Some of the critera for traditional offroaders:
Ladder Chassis or similar. Easy to weld, fix, change
Flat body panels as much as possible. Easy to fix, weld, change
Simple bumper with end caps. Change for different style where necessary, broken ends can be taken off, or replaced. Winches etc.
Round headlights. Can be changed anywhere, by anyone, anywhere in the world (universal part). The ones I put on my Jeep JK were from Harley Davidson
Small wheels, big tyres. Surface area is king. Note the new Dender has 20" wheels and low profile tyres... Not made to go off the N11
Simple Access... I did allot of mods to my FJ & JK myself... wiring was relitively easy, as was access under floors etc. How would you wire a set of rooftop lights on the new defender & how would you fix additional buttons and switches to the dash?
On body towing points. These should be chassis mounted, or you'll rip your bumper off. This is not for towing, but for removing a vehicle from deep mud or sand... this is done under massive force and resistance using kenetic ropes that produce massive energy... threaded tow points are not adviseable, nore are bumer mounted points, or you're liable to lose a bumper.

The new defender is a lifestyle choice, not an offroad vehicle.

Stallingrad · 18-09-2019 3:00pm

For those with reliability concerns LR sell a "Get You Home' pack. You simply attach the winch to something solid before setting off into the wild.

[URL="https:///"]

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Atlantic Dawn · 18-09-2019 8:37pm

An interesting alternative still available on the South African market for circa £50k, 70 Series Toyota Land Cruiser.

Prices start at the equivalent of just under £50,000. Take into account the fact this thing may well outlive you, your kids and their kids, and that doesn’t sound so bad.

0101020201.namib_.exterior.1.jpg?itok=ZvzuDPkX

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/suvs/toyota-land-cruiser-namib-tremendous

Also on the horizon this...
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/suvs/ineos-grenadier-will-be-no-nonsense-british-4x4

TrailerBob · 18-09-2019 9:30pm

They've been selling the 70 series in various body styles, 7 seater, pick up, traybed, troop carrier etc in S.A and AUS for years.. the V8 diesel in them doesn't meet Euro emissions regs, so they can't sell them here new. You can of course personally import one second hand...

With the defender going the route it has, the 70 series is the last proper ladder frame multi-purpose truck out there. Of course, not many people here need that level of over engineering either

07Lapierre · 18-09-2019 9:48pm

I think the new Defender is everything the old defender was not. Anyone who knows the old Defender won't buy a new one. Why? Because they probably still own one of the old defenders!

krissovo · 18-09-2019 9:57pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

Because they probably still own one of the old defenders!

I know an old fella near me who has one of the last defenders off the production line in storage with less than 1000k’s on the clock. He is waiting for his current defender to die.

Jude13 · 19-09-2019 4:59am

Bluefoam wrote: »

They still make the original Patrol especially for the Middle East (not cheap comparitively). The new Patrol is bloated and used for delivering kids to school and queuing at the McDonalds drive through. When Toyota announced they were discontinuing the FJ, they bought up an additional year of production just for the Gulf region. The FJ is the most capable and suitable car for the desert.

I would query that, many firms/divisions have bought the new patrol (with a few mods, basically front and back bumpers, not to mention the armored version) solely for desert use after rigorous testing versus the LC. one saffa private security said they bring at least one new patrol to help out the LC's. Would have to disagree with the FJ being most capable on the said also. I will ask the BAE guys when I am back in KSA what they think of the new Patrol as they received a batch of them instead of the LC's.

I did the empty quarter in a LR many moons ago at it was cappable but nothing on the toyota's / nissans. The LR defender would be for getting stuck in electric picnic

jochenstacker · 19-09-2019 9:17am

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

An interesting alternative still available on the South African market for circa £50k, 70 Series Toyota Land Cruiser.

https://www.topgear.com/sites/default/files/styles/fit_1960x1102/public/images/news-article/carousel/2019/09/51ebe02f30b9c9750b7f9237c1b9d2ad/0101020201.namib_.exterior.1.jpg?itok=ZvzuDPkX

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/suvs/toyota-land-cruiser-namib-tremendous

Also on the horizon this...
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/suvs/ineos-grenadier-will-be-no-nonsense-british-4x4

That is a thing of beauty. I don't like new cars, flimsy crap with complicated mechanics that will all be broken well before 200k km* with crappy plastic exterior that will look good for about 3 years before any kind of shunt will bend it out of shape and it will never sit right again.
Gimme something like that that can still be repaired with a hammer, a screwdriver and a few spanners.
But how long before any kind of ICE vehicle is Verboten everywhere? We will be forced by law to buy that new shit and we won't have a choice as cars cost minimum €20k and they turn into scrap on the dot at 5 yeras old, because nobody will insure it anymore and they won't be allowed to be driven anywhere.
I guess leasing a car and sharing it between different parties, or maybe they will all be self driving and you just call one via app to take you where you want to go? Won't be a pretty future. Cars will be anonymous econo boxes that can be thrown on the garbage as soon as the first part lunches itself on the dot of 100k km like it was designed to do.

*
And I'm absolutely convinced with a few fatal flaws designed into it on purpose.
Those cars get ever more complicated and manufacturers have to save every penny. And they do so at the expense of the buyer. So it's ok to save a few cents on things like the fuel injection system, timing chain, clutch and a few other vital parts that will crap themselves at 5 years and basically write off the car, because all you can do is put in the same crap again and keep driving a ticking time bomb.

Old diesel · 19-09-2019 10:02am

Lofidelity wrote: »

Does this mean the Wrangler has the hardcore off road market to itself?
Theres a new shape one driving around Dublin 2 and its really growing on me. Matte grey and wide wheels.

If the claims being made for it are correct then this Defender can still do "hardcore off road".

That's a big IF though as the claims been made for the new Defender are pretty big.

Old diesel · 19-09-2019 10:20am

We can also be absolutely certain that people are going to directly compare the new Defender with the old off road .

Suspect the UK Land Rover magazines will do exactly that as soon as they can get their hands on a production model for long enough .

So frankly it would be ludicrous for Land Rover to make claims that will be very quickly tested.

TheBoyConor · 19-09-2019 2:38pm

The new defender might be able to compete with the old one or with other robust offroaders. But will it do it reliably for 10-20 years of hard driving, towing, mud, neglected servicing and occasional gunfire hits?? Not a chance! It's nothing more than a plastic Dalkey tractor. Coming to a school gate near you soon.

The real test of what is a capable off road utility vehicle is what the ESB have and what you see outside the mart on mart day.

Capra · 19-09-2019 3:27pm

Old diesel wrote: »

We can also be absolutely certain that people are going to directly compare the new Defender with the old off road .

Suspect the UK Land Rover magazines will do exactly that as soon as they can get their hands on a production model for long enough .

So frankly it would be ludicrous for Land Rover to make claims that will be very quickly tested.

I've never seen a magazine test an off road vehicle robustly. They take them out on a few manicured challenge loops that any skilled driver will make it over in most vehicles. Proper extreme off roading is rarely tested. The thing with the old defender is that it was easily modified and cheap to repair. This won't be either of those things. A Jeep Wrangler in 2019 is still a Jeep Wrangler despite a total overhaul. This is nothing like an original Defender in looks or concept.

TheBoyConor · 19-09-2019 4:11pm

That's exactly what they do. What looks like an off road challenge is just a carefully engineered course that has the bumps and dips at just the right pitch so the Jeep can get over them and look really impressive..

The real comparative test is to give a Hilux and a new defender to a hill farmer in deepest darkest Mayo in winter.

That'll sort the wheat from the chaff.

19-09-2019 5:06pm

My feeling is that’s it’s going to prove a lot of posters here wrong. I’m surprised at the negativity towards it, it’s much more positive elsewhere.

It retains its 3.5 tonne towing captivity also, while it might be used by some in cities etc this is a machine built for work too. I don’t see the issue with trying to cater for both markets, a landcruiser does it.

Old diesel · 19-09-2019 5:19pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

The new defender might be able to compete with the old one or with other robust offroaders. But will it do it reliably for 10-20 years of hard driving, towing, mud, neglected servicing and occasional gunfire hits?? Not a chance! It's nothing more than a plastic Dalkey tractor. Coming to a school gate near you soon.

The real test of what is a capable off road utility vehicle is what the ESB have and what you see outside the mart on mart day.

Jeep are pretty poor using that criteria as well though.

Of course the new Defender could well have poor reliability and durability

But this will only become apparent one way or the other with time.

TheBoyConor · 19-09-2019 5:28pm

Time will tell indeed.

I can't really envisage many of these turning up at marts, as site vehicles on motorway construction jobs.

Or as improvised fighting vehicles in places like Yemen or Somalia.

I speculate that like most land rover products, it'll be all pants and no trousers. Big talk of ruggedness and capability but will fail miserable when it comes to real world use, mostly because of land rovers notoriously shoddy reliability. Too many finicky gadgets and "features" that simply won't stand up to the abuse and hard work that say, an Isuzu dmax or Hilux could handle for years.

It's designed and built for soccer moms.

TheBoyConor · 19-09-2019 5:31pm

Body coloured bumpers and low profile tyres? And they are calling it a rugged workhorse built for off road?

I can't take that seriously.

I can't see the ESB or any utility that needs off road vehicles that are as reliable as they are robust buying this softie.

New Defender - yah or nah?

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