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Sign up here for the Lisbon Treaty Debate on boards.ie - *no debating here*

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    #32
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    IrelandSpirit wrote: »
    I see you’re short on ‘no’ voters. I would love to get involved in this debate but need some straightforward guarantees first; else I feel we’ll only be wasting our time.

    To have a sober and coherent debate on a subject, one must first have a sober and coherent understanding of the subject at hand. Have any of you actually read and understood this treaty?

    (‘Understood’ being the operative word).

    Read, understood, compared to Nice, and summarised here.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #33
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    No moderation sounds positive.

    However, the debate I last saw, between the actual political proponents and opponents of Lisbon descended into a disturbing round of heckling and ad hominem attacks (Libertas are attempting to create a third Reich, Proinseas De Rossa doesn't know the truth if it bit him, McKenna has betrayed the Green Party, the No side are all loonies, the yes side all pro-NAMA fat cats)

    That was far from the worst of it, and was even without Dick Roche or Sinn Fein being present! Could it be any worse on Boards?

    Ultimately, I think the debates concerning Lisbon are almost always going to hit a brick wall because:
    a) The goalposts keep shifting.
    b) So much depends upon textual interpretation (which you don't need any Philosopher of Language to tell you is going to be deeply problematic).
    c) On the hypothetical implementation of the Treaty - including guarantees.
    d) And on the practical and ethical limits, and interpretation of the concept of 'representative' democracy [cough]
    e) Arguments on the no side which fundamentally attack elements of the EU Constitution which have been established by Maastricht
    f) Definition of the word 'federalism'
    g) Emotive responses to the use of historical analogies (or alternatively the use of historical analogy as a lazy oversimplification of the political topography of Europe) e.g. 'The EU stopped World War 3. Vote Yes' or 'The EU is the USSR. Vote No.'


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    #34
    skelliser
    Registered Users Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭skelliser


    i agree with the above.

    i would help the no side but i got banned for a tongue in cheek reply to a thread, iv gone back and looked at said thread and feel iv been vindicated by the rest of the replies. Its neither here nor there tho.

    Posters who are on the yes side saying they will argue on behalf of the no side makes a mockery of the whole thing.


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    #35
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    skelliser wrote: »
    i would help the no side but i got banned for a tongue in cheek reply to a thread,
    Not from the debate forum(s), you haven't....given that you're currently posting in Pathos, and you wouldn't have been able to post in Logos.
    Posters who are on the yes side saying they will argue on behalf of the no side makes a mockery of the whole thing.
    It seems to me they're offering to fill a space that actual proponents of the No side aren't willing to fill.

    Which is the bigger mockery...that No voters aren't willing to engage in a debate, or that someone offers to play Devil's Advocate so that a debate can take place?


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    #36
    edanto
    Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭edanto


    Just in the interests of making it easy to know how these debate plans are coming along, can we keep this thread just for people putting themselves forward and maybe put forward the actual arguments in other threads?

    It still looks like the No side is short one or two people that have confidently put themselves forward, even though there are a few people that said they would fill in if needed. I'll contact one prominent No campaigner that I know through facebook and ask if he'll join in the debate.

    A question about the debate - who will judge it?


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    #37
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    As a de-facto mod of this forum, I'll echo what edanto said - stop discussing the issue; this isn't the debate yet.

    I'm going to delete those posts that have pre-empted the debate. If someone who posted one of those wishes to put themselves forward for the debate proper, please post again to do so.

    I'll also delete future posts that pre-empt the debate, until someone tells me not to.


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    #38
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    I have just done so OB.

    Please put yourself forward the debate on this threads.... the debate happens next week!

    DeV.


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    #39
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    OK, so DeVore got there first :)


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    #40
    Dav
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,840 ✭✭✭Dav


    Folks, this thread is not for the debate - it's for saying "I would like to put myself forward for the debate" and stating which side you are on.

    Please keep it on topic - when the debate itself starts, this forum will be open for discussion by the public about what the teams are saying and we'll happily have all manner of back and forth here (once it's within the site rules).

    Dav


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    #41
    IrelandSpirit
    Registered Users Posts: 831 ✭✭✭IrelandSpirit


    Dav wrote: »
    Folks, this thread is not for the debate - it's for saying "I would like to put myself forward for the debate" and stating which side you are on.

    Please keep it on topic - when the debate itself starts, this forum will be open for discussion by the public about what the teams are saying and we'll happily have all manner of back and forth here (once it's within the site rules).

    Dav


    Ok, IrelandSpirit is in for the NO Vote. Please keep me informed as to when and where. Work and time permitting, I’ll be there…

    I’ll reiterate what I said earlier, and with all due respect, we are seriously short of no-siders here, and it’s therefore not the brightest idea to delete our previous posts – not if you want to attract traffic to this thread.
    There’s nothing wrong with a little pre-debate sparring, it’s a good opportunity to meet, form alliances and size each other up for next week. And more importantly, it will attract other potential participants to the debate.

    I ask you again to kindly restore all the posts you have deleted.

    Thank you.


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    #42
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    If you want a pre-debate debate, head to the European Union forum.

    In the meantime, please keep this on-topic.


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    #43
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    I;m looking forward to this.


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    #44
    FutureTaoiseach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭FutureTaoiseach


    Can the mods PM the persons who have been chosen for the yes/no panels?


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    #45
    G_R
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,023 Mod ✭✭✭✭G_R


    FutureTaoiseach wrote: »
    Can the mods PM the persons who have been chosen for the yes/no panels?

    and post the list here so people who haven't been chosen can see who to support. cheers


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    #46
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Is this debate public?


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    #47
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Is this debate public?

    Yes. But only the debaters will be able to post in the debating forums.

    The public can discuss the debate amongst themselves in this forum iirc.


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    #48
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    If there is a hole in the No side, count me in, I suppose. I can't guarantee availability though (and also I don't think I would be exhaustive in my approach to the Treaty itself - making my arguments perhaps a little brief for prolonged debate).


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    #49
    puffdragon
    Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭puffdragon


    Dont waste your time , go away and think up the line up of the next government


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    #50
    IrelandSpirit
    Registered Users Posts: 831 ✭✭✭IrelandSpirit


    puffdragon wrote: »
    Dont waste your time , go away and think up the line up of the next government


    I'm inclined to agree with you there puffdragon.

    Man, this thread is totally dead…

    We must thank Boards.ie, however, for ‘inviting people to address in simple terms why they should vote’ – and then deleting our responses.

    Go figure…

    Anyway, I’m out. Won’t make it here next week anyway, unless I get the time off which is looking increasingly unlikely.

    I wish you all a great evening debating, and remember: if Treaty so good, for why the politician speak with forked tongue?

    Shinny beads anyone? ;)


    See ya at the booths


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    #51
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    IrelandSpirit wrote: »
    We must thank Boards.ie, however, for ‘inviting people to address in simple terms why they should vote’ – and then deleting our responses.

    Go figure…
    I'll explain this as simply as I can. Pay attention now.

    There will be a structured debate on the Lisbon treaty held within the Debate forum, of which this subforum (Pathos) is the "public gallery".

    Since the structured debate hasn't started yet, this subforum is being used to invite people to express an interest in participating in the debate itself, once it does start.

    This, the public gallery of the debate forum, is not a debating forum. Please don't debate the issue here.

    If you want to debate the issue in advance of the structured debate, there's a specific European Union forum where an unstructured (but moderated) debate has been taking place since before the first Lisbon referendum.

    If you want to express an interest in participating in the structured debate, please do so in this thread. If you don't, please don't post here.

    If the above instructions are unclear in some way, I'm not sure what more I can do to help.


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    #52
    smegmar
    Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭smegmar


    is it too late to jump in on this.

    I'm voting no, at least at the machine, I'm sure cowan and co will turn that into a yes.


    so what now do I get a PM or something?

    oh wait today is Saturday not Friday, hurr durr I'm a hoars


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    #53
    IrelandSpirit
    Registered Users Posts: 831 ✭✭✭IrelandSpirit


    Can I make a quick suggestion? To avoid further confusion, perhaps change the thread’s title from: Lisbon Treaty Debate on boards.ie

    To maybe:

    Sign Up Here For The Lisbon Treaty Debate on boards.ie

    Or words to that effect…


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    #54
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Done, thanks for the suggestion.


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    #55
    IrelandSpirit
    Registered Users Posts: 831 ✭✭✭IrelandSpirit


    You're welcome.


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    #56
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Is this happening?


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    #57
    Dav
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,840 ✭✭✭Dav


    I'm picking the teams today - I was away from my computer all weekend. I'm aiming to have the teams chosen by close of business today.

    Thanks for the patience on this folks.

    Dav


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    #58
    Camille9
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭Camille9


    I thought the debate WAS today?
    Confused......


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    #59
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Dav wrote: »
    Hello all.

    We're less than two weeks away from the second Lisbon Treaty referendum so as well as setting up our Lisbon Treaty Answers forum, we've decided that as the dead line approaches, we're going to have a debate as the campaigns on both side come to a close in order to help out anyone who's still undecided or maybe change a few minds.

    The plan will work as follows:
    • We pick 2 teams of 4 people on each side of the debate.
    • We use the debating chamber forums here on boards:
      • Logos for the debate (only the team members can post here, but everyone will be able to read it as it goes on)
      • Ethos for the judges (We're looking at a team of 3 - this is a private forum for them to discuss the debate)
      • Pathos for the public to discuss how the debate is going (this forum will be moderated with the usual boards.ie rules).
    We're inviting people to put their names forward on this thread - state clearly if you're on the Yes or No side. We will review your relevant posts from boards and on Friday, we'll close applications and pick the 4 team members for each side.

    Each team will get a private forum where they can talk tactics and strengths/weaknesses over the weekend. This will require a committment of your time, so please be sure that you have the free time necessary to contribute before signing up.

    This debate is open to everyone - boards.ie Members, Moderators and Category Moderators are free to put their name forward for either side. boards.ie Admins and Staff are not allowed to enter.

    The debate itself will run from Monday 28th to Wednesday 31st (with an option to extend on till the Thursday should there be a need) and the judges are free to deliberate in a manner of their choosing. There will be no specific topics or questions asked of the teams, but if it looks like things are gone stagnant or are spinning around in circles, we may offer in a topic that the public are discussing (from the Pathos forum).

    Each team member will be allowed to post in Logos 5 times a day which means that what they say will have to be well constructed and not just a 1 line rebuttal. Because of the nature of this medium for debate, we expect to see links to studies/articles/etc to back up the points being made by either side. We would hope that there's no actual need to moderate the Logos forum, but if we see something that breaks site rules (e.g. Libel or Personal Abuse of an opponent), we may have to step in and edit. This will be as a measure of last resort though as we have no wish to interfere in the debate.

    Team members will of course be free to post as often as they like in their team's private forum.

    When the teams have been decided on, we'll announce them and the 3 judges on Friday (25th) of this week and the debate will begin on Monday at 10am.

    Dav

    [edit]
    Due to the extended site down-time on Wednesday, we're allowing an extra day to gather people for the teams and will now pick them on Friday instead of Thursday.

    Quite right, Camille.


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    #60
    G_R
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,023 Mod ✭✭✭✭G_R


    Whats the story Dav, i thought the debate was supposed to start today?


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    #61
    Dav
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,840 ✭✭✭Dav


    I've sent the PMs to the people we've picked for both teams - just waiting to hear if everyone's available and will post exact details tomorrow morning to say what's happening.

    Until then, I want to extend a big thanks to everyone for their input and volunteering to join us.


This discussion has been closed.
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