Helmets - the definitive thread.. Mod Note - Please read Opening Post

Hurrache · 09-04-2019 10:15am

Oh dear.
https://twitter.com/nealerichmond/status/1115351543447019521

but this is a bit of sense
https://twitter.com/ConorAAIreland/status/1115540068830195712

But this eejit makes his obligatory appearance
https://twitter.com/CllrKRedmond/status/1115353433865953282

magicbastarder · 09-04-2019 10:21am

i threw my oar in.

https://twitter.com/JSWeetabix/status/1115545068688027649

Cookie_Monster · 09-04-2019 10:39am

NZ should be on that list, I thought NZ and Aus were the only two...
Wikipedia agrees, all others are not universally applied

rubadub · 27-04-2019 9:24pm

http://www.copenhagenize.com/2009/08/walking-helmet-is-good-helmet.html

This Danish campaign poster reads:

"A walking helmet is a good helmet"
"Traffic safety isn't just for cyclists. The pedestrians of Denmark actually have a higher risk of head injury. The Danish Road Safety Council recommends walking helmets for pedestrians and other good folk in high risk groups."

The slogan is catchy in Danish since it kind of rhymes. All in all it's a brilliant project. Let's save some lives.

The new walking helmets will be available in the Danish Cyclists Union's [Dansk cyklist forbund] shop. Although, as the Danish Cyclists' Union, the Road Safety Council and Trygfonden have been quick to point out:

"A bike helmet is a fine substitute for walking helmets, so there's no need to take it off when you get off your bike. Keep it on throughout the day for maximum safety."

http://casr.adelaide.edu.au/developments/headband/

The Centre has been evaluating the concept of a protective headband for car occupants. In about 44 percent of cases of occupant head injury, a protective headband, such as the one illustrated, would have provided some benefit. One estimate has put the potential benefit of such a device (in terms of reduced societal Harm) as high as $380 million, compared with $123 million for padding the upper interior of the car. This benefit derives from the fact that in a crash, the head strikes objects other than those that could be padded inside the car.

fryup · 28-04-2019 11:40am

^^^^^^^^^^^

helmets for monks?

rubadub · 28-04-2019 8:22pm

This was a great idea, sign is bogus (I had wondered if the Danish one was too.)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4163496/No-helmet-no-run-signs-spring-Bondi-Bronte.html

Grassey · 03-06-2019 7:48pm

could-volvo-and-poc-end-helmet-debate-

The Swedish brands have teamed up for what they claim is a "world-first" series of crash tests that will assess the impact on cycle helmets in collisions with cars – and, by comparing the results with those of existing regulations regarding pedestrian head protection, will enable them “to make a direct comparison between wearing a helmet and not wearing a helmet.”

I'd be surprised if the end result wasn't favouring elwearing helmets... Simply because the study is being done by a company that makes its money by selling helmets... Working with a car company whose safety feature a while back was high vis paint for cyclists.

Chips Lovell · 03-06-2019 9:31pm

Turkeys never vote for Christmas

rubadub · 03-06-2019 11:33pm

Could Volvo and POC end the helmet debate?

I am left wondering what the writer thinks the "helmet debate" is actually about.

buffalo · 04-06-2019 7:36am

Grassey wrote: »

I'd be surprised if the end result wasn't favouring elwearing helmets... Simply because the study is being done by a company that makes its money by selling helmets... Working with a car company whose safety feature a while back was high vis paint for cyclists.

The question is will they repeat the study for car occupants? And people using stairs... people drinking alcohol... people riding scooters...

Grassey · 04-06-2019 8:22am

Nah, probably just ski/snowboarders and cars. You never know....

magicbastarder · 04-06-2019 8:51am

i fully expect that the results of the testing will be that volvo will announce that the biggest factor relating to cyclist safety is that their cars are too big.

doozerie · 04-06-2019 10:38am

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Turkeys never vote for Christmas

I used to believe that, and then ...Trump, Brexit, the real prospect of Boris Johnson becoming the mini-Trump of the UK, Peter Casey actually got some votes, etc.

...I'm searching the Internet for a sufficiently sad-faced emoji but can't find one as apparently we've not sunk so low as to need such a sad one before...

It does occur to me though that the scientific integrity of Volvo's testing could benefit from some real-life dummies being used. Coincidentally I have the basis of a useful list of volunteers above.

magicbastarder · 14-06-2019 8:13pm

carlsberg have shot an ad featurig mads mikkelsen on a bike. there's a UK and ROI only version where he's wearing a helmet.

https://twitter.com/LkCycleDesign/status/1137479873272918016

tigerboon · 14-06-2019 11:33pm

rubadub wrote: »

http://www.copenhagenize.com/2009/08/walking-helmet-is-good-helmet.html

http://casr.adelaide.edu.au/developments/headband/

Am I missing something here? I don't see anything suggesting this is a joke. How's NASA doing with the Mars exploration because I think I want to go there.

rubadub · 15-06-2019 1:34am

tigerboon wrote: »

Am I missing something here?

quite possibly you are, many are set in their ways, might depend on what age you are, when I grew up the notion of wearing helmet while cycling was utterly ludicrous, unless you were a pro and they wore flimsy ones at the time.

tigerboon wrote: »

I don't see anything suggesting this is a joke.

I am genuinely not sure if the Danish one was meant to be legit, if not a government idea I would not think it is meant to be a joke. I know the bondi one is not legit but I do not consider it a joke, it is properly made to get people to actually bother to think for a minute.

I would be interested in hearing you explain your comments a bit more, e.g. what activities do you think it advisable to wear a helmet or other protection doing, and what would you think to be laughable/"a joke" to wear some type of protection doing, and maybe explain the level of protection where it becomes a joke.

magicbastarder · 15-06-2019 9:51am

rubadub wrote: »

I would be interested in hearing you explain your comments a bit more, e.g. what activities do you think it advisable to wear a helmet or other protection doing, and what would you think to be laughable/"a joke" to wear some type of protection doing, and maybe explain the level of protection where it becomes a joke.

it may be arrogant for me to put words in tigerboon's mouth, but i suspect him expanding on his comments will basically involve 'i just said i think it looks stupid'. asking for a policy paper based on the comment above is a bit of a stretch.

Daroxtar · 15-06-2019 10:15am

I mostly come onto this forum to check in and chat about stuff that's enjoyable, look at nice scenery pics and bike porn so I usually stay out of threads like this or close passes or any other Joe Duffy type of flamey crap but just this once I'm going to dip my toe in. Or head as the case may be.

As has been mentioned by me a few times, I got a nice wallop at the start of May. Touched wheels at about 40kmh and hit the road hard. 2 broken ribs, collapsed lung, hairline fracture of the elbow, grade 3 AC joint separation. 4 nights in hospital, 7 weeks (and counting) off work.

I've replayed the crash over and over in my head and while the split seconds before it are vague, mostly due to their non-eventfulness, I can very clearly remember the bang. I can't tell you exactly what my angle of trajectory was but it was very much head and shoulder first. I distinctly felt the thump on the head just as much as the body. Sunglasses went in bits. But no head injury.

Here's the outside of the helmet.

Here's the inside. Not sure how clear that looks but it's cracked in 3 or 4 spots just around the temple.

Without the helmet, best case scenario I'd have left my ear and half my scalp in Wicklow, and that is by far the best case scenario.

Edit: forgot to mention that the helmet was 3 weeks old. Money well spent IMHO and Endura have a crash policy so I'll be buying another one soon.

tomasrojo · 15-06-2019 2:00pm

I don't think the use of helmets by people cycling at 40km/h is all that controversial, to be honest. They're largely accepted to reduce linear accleration to a modest extent. It's the notion that they will prevent widespread head injuries that's in contention, because, based on population-level statistics, they don't *seem* to have any effect.

Which isn't that suprising, perhaps, given that most serious head injuries for people who aren't racing or training arise from collisions with motorised vehicles.

Glad to hear you're ok too.

tomasrojo · 16-06-2019 8:57am

Something about that Carlsberg ad:
https://twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1140034888588042245

They did show the previous ad of him cycling on a banquet table (or something like that) unmodified.

plodder · 16-06-2019 12:18pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Something about that Carlsberg ad:
https://twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1140034888588042245

They did show the previous ad of him cycling on a banquet table (or something like that) unmodified.

Is this actually true? I have only seen the ad without the helmet.

tomasrojo · 16-06-2019 12:33pm

I might have seen it on one of the UK channels. But I definitely never saw a helmet CGI'd onto him in that version of the ad.

This one:
http://www.adstasher.com/2017/04/carlsberg-danish-way-explained-by.html

I had assumed till now that the CGI'd helmet version of the new ad was a UK ad, just carried over without modification to the Irish market, as is the usual practice. Not sure now.

CramCycle · 16-06-2019 12:37pm

I've only seen the helmetless ad, starting to suspect it's not a true story and someone in Carlsberg is getting free publicity

tomasrojo · 16-06-2019 12:43pm

I did see the helmeted version. It did look CGI'd, but I only saw it out of the corner of my eye.

magicbastarder · 16-06-2019 1:37pm

CramCycle wrote: »

I've only seen the helmetless ad, starting to suspect it's not a true story and someone in Carlsberg is getting free publicity

not the most effective way though really, it's not exactly gone viral except among cyclists, who wouldn't necessarily end up drinking more carlsberg as a result.

rubadub · 16-06-2019 2:39pm

CramCycle wrote: »

I've only seen the helmetless ad, starting to suspect it's not a true story and someone in Carlsberg is getting free publicity

tomasrojo wrote: »

I did see the helmeted version. It did look CGI'd, but I only saw it out of the corner of my eye.

here it is
https://twitter.com/LkCycleDesign/status/1137494268669562880

tomasrojo · 16-06-2019 3:53pm

https://twitter.com/LkCycleDesign/status/1139079361989173250

So, given how unlikely it was they gave the ASA of Ireland much, if any, consideration when deciding how to tailor the ad, they tailored the ad for the UK market. Maybe based on negative feedback from the previous ad. A lot of decisions based on depicting cyclists in advertising and entertainment seem to be based around avoiding charges of being irresponsible.

plodder · 16-06-2019 5:29pm

So, it's true then. I think I've seen it on Sky and it didn't have the addition. Now, I think about it though, I remember an ad for milk (of all things) that had kids bouncing on a trampoline. After the ad was out for a while the trampoline suddenly acquired one of those safety nets. Crazy stuff imo.

tomasrojo · 12-10-2019 3:04pm

Podcast about the Irish Times 70% front-page story. I haven't listened to it yet; references the irishcycle.com article:

Paul Cullen is the Health Editor of the Irish Times. His article headlined Almost 70% of cyclists without helmet at time of head trauma, appeared on the front page of IT last month.

The article was sharply criticised in online discussion, including in this article by Cian Ginty.

In our discussion, I mentioned a number of articles and scientific studies, including this analysis of the reporting of deaths of vulnerable road users by Joe Lindsey, and this study by Kelcie Ralph et al. I also mentioned that international and Irish studies indicate - contrary to popular imagination - motorists break traffic laws more frequently than cyclists.

https://blog.hereshow.ie/2019/10/heres-how-93-bike-heads/#more-1529

magicbastarder · 31-10-2019 12:34pm

bit of a mic drop in this thread about helmets:

https://twitter.com/FrazerGoodwin/status/1189858532889374721

rubadub · 13-11-2019 10:40pm

Wearing a cycle helmet may increase risk of injury, says new research

Weepsie · 13-11-2019 11:09pm

Smacked my head off a low overhead pipe today entering our car park.

Helmet came in use for once

CramCycle · 14-11-2019 8:31am

On my old cycle route there was a low bridge. Never hit it once without my helmet bit a few times when I did have one on, the helmet hit the arch as I went through. Nothing serious, just made contact.

I always wonder, and there is no way to know, how many 'lucky I had my helmet on' stories simply wouldn't have happened if there was no helmet.

A question with no possible answer, Pigeons, let me introduce Mr. Cat.

Kander · 14-11-2019 12:07pm

On the look out for a new helmet. Anyone have any experience on the below from halfords?

https://www.halfords.ie/cycling/bike-helmets/adult-bike-helmets/boardman-rd-9-0-helmet-yellow-black

magicbastarder · 14-11-2019 12:18pm

CramCycle wrote: »

I always wonder, and there is no way to know, how many 'lucky I had my helmet on' stories simply wouldn't have happened if there was no helmet.

how many head injuries are due to people wearing high heels?

CramCycle · 14-11-2019 2:42pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

how many head injuries are due to people wearing high heels?

How many are due to cleats, to that cup of water/coffee you spilled but forgot to wipe up, a shower mat not being as effective as you might have thought. This is why I like population based statistics in these discussions over anecdotal stories (and I have loads). Yes, some helmets my have saved lives, conversely they may have added to an injury. On a case by case basis, it would still take a huge amount of investigation to be sure.

My helmet story above, did I hit my helmet because my head was now bigger and my proprioception had only taken into account my own head size, was it because I was more risk taking with my helmet. Was it simply that I worked nights and coincidentally happened to not be as awake as I should have been. Was I lucky and would have hit my head that day regardless, there is no way to know, I have my opinions but they are misleading and unproveable.

With population data analysis, there are huge confounding factors but they don't change the overall facts. The helmet data for places with mandatory helmet laws, the confounding factors are numerous and a wide scale survey might show some insight into why head injury rates / cyclist go up or don't change. There are loads of possibilities and would require alot of investigation. People like to look at these confounding factors as excuses for what the helmet law does and say that it is still a good idea, just read the comments on the article above.

They do however forget the one thing that is not affected in measurement or analysis by a confounding factor, the one thing that does change and will have an affect on the population health. And that is the dramatic decrease in numbers. There are reasons for this, lots of people have opinions, most of them probably relate to some of them. The thing is though, it does not matter. This one fact is the only real indicator that is needed that mandatory helmet laws are a bad idea. Leave it upto a personal choice and stop annoying people who choose not too. They certainly are not causing any increase in risk to anyone else and there is no proof in the general population that they are either increasing or decreasing the risk to themselves. From a H&S perspective, it is a no brainer.

mamax · 14-11-2019 3:25pm

Kander wrote: »

On the look out for a new helmet. Anyone have any experience on the below from halfords?

https://www.halfords.ie/cycling/bike-helmets/adult-bike-helmets/boardman-rd-9-0-helmet-yellow-black

I am currently using the older version of that one and watching a few online for the price to drop, decent helmet and fits me ok.

I had a crash some months back on a group ride at almost 50kph and the helmet cracked in 3 places, my body was black and blue and covered in road rash, my head did not have a scratch, no concussion, and I remember being fully aware of everything.
My opinion is you really won't understand how a helmet can prevent an injury unless you have been in a crash and see first hand the damage caused to the helmet upon impact, I believe if I wasn't wearing a helmet that day I would probably have suffered massive injuries to my head.
I will never cycle without one.

NeedMoreGears · 15-11-2019 11:48am

I'm under no illusions as to the usefulness of a helmet if I am hit by a vehicle. It should reduce head injury - whether the reduction is enough to save me is not certain. There are also plenty of other ways such a collision could kill me without head trauma.

Having said that, for me the helmet thing is fairly straightforward. I've had a number of falls from the bike, and in some of those I've hit my head fairly hard off the ground. I was wearing a helmet and I am convinced the helmet saved me from a lot of pain and stitches. That level of injury reduction is enough to make wearing a helmet worthwhile for me, even if wearing it makes me bump into things now and again.

what_traffic · 15-11-2019 11:57am

mamax wrote: »

I had a crash some months back on a group ride at almost 50kphand the helmet cracked in 3 places,
.
..
...
I will never cycle without one.

Yes agree - if doing this type of cycling (sports cycling I would presume) then would certainly be advisable.

magicbastarder · 15-11-2019 12:00pm

Comparing cycling at 50km/h and at 20km/h is a sixfold difference in energy your body would have to absorb in the event of a crash.

buffalo · 22-04-2020 8:49am

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2020/0422/1133041-breast-implant-shooting/

A woman's life was likely saved by her silicone breast implants after she was shot in the chest at close range while walking down a street in Toronto, doctors have said.

...

"Based on trajectory of bullet entry clinically and evaluation radiologically, the only source of bullet deflection of the bullet is the left breast implant," it said.

"This implant overlies the heart and intrathoracic cavity and therefore likely saved the woman's life."

I read this story and I immediately thought of all those people whose helmets saved their lives while cycling, which obviously means everyone should wear one all the time.

I'm making an appointment with a plastic surgeon immediately. I wonder how many male patients they get?

Hamsterchops · 14-05-2020 3:40pm

Darkglasses wrote: »

I'm very happy that in this country we can choose for ourselves whether to wear the helmet or not. Me personally, I always will, for various reasons.

I only tell other people to make their own decision for themselves

Helmet wearing should be compulsory, 100%.

As a family we would never be seen out & about on the roads without wearing helmets, just not worth the risk.

... of serious brain injury.

magicbastarder · 14-05-2020 3:50pm

you should have a read back of the thread. it's not as cut and dried as you might think; the dutch, for example would look at you quizzically.

tomasrojo · 14-05-2020 4:03pm

David Spiegelhalter and Ben Goldacre's editorial in the BMJ shows that people with expertise in risk and epidemiology can come to the conclusion that on balance they really don't make all that much of a difference:
https://www.badscience.net/2013/12/bicycle-helmets-and-the-law-a-perfect-teaching-case-for-epidemiology/

Naturally, they could be wrong, and you are free to disregard their opinion. But it's not a fringe belief.

Eamonnator · 14-05-2020 4:13pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Helmet wearing should be compulsory, 100%.

As a family we would never be seen out & about on the roads without wearing helmets, just not worth the risk.

... of serious brain injury.

And do you wear one when you're cycling?

plodder · 14-05-2020 4:20pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

And do you wear one when you're cycling?

I guess they do. If they aren't seen out and about walking on the roads without a helmet (due to the non-zero risk of serious brain injury), then I presume they wear one cycling too, but one shouldn't presume ..

rubadub · 14-05-2020 5:10pm

plodder wrote: »

I presume they wear one cycling too,

And of course in the car, seeing as they have already invested in helmets it would be utter madness to not wear them in the car, where they are said to offer even more protection. Ask any coroner or doctor who has had to deal with head trauma victims in car crashes if a helmet would have helped, they will invariably say yes. Even with seatbelts & airbags there are still PLENTY of head injuries in cars.

The most bizarre thing is many people driving already own cycling helmets, the style of which is meant to be very beneficial in cars, you do not need a full on rally helmet. So there is no excuse about expense or worried about their hair or "looking cool".

It would be a like a guy buying and wearing safety goggles while sawing wood with a handsaw, and then taking them off and donning a heat proof welders jacket and thick gloves to use and angle grinder on steel, but point blank refusing to wear the goggles! saying "ah sure don't I have a jacket & gloves, sure I'm safe enough, I've made a decent effort, I'll just squint a bit, that's enough eye protection", and the googles just laying there in another room.

Hamsterchops · 14-05-2020 7:09pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

And do you wear one when you're cycling?

Wonderful contribution in reply to my 1st post, very smart if a bit lacking in deduction, yes that's exactly what I meant by out and about (while cycling), honestly :rolleyes:

And then you get five thanks!
What kind of a forum is this?

smacl · 14-05-2020 7:13pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Wonderful contribution in reply to my 1st post, very smart if a bit lacking in deduction, yes that's exactly what I meant by out and about (while cycling), honestly :rolleyes:

And then you get five thanks!
What kind of a forum is this?

One that has looked at every aspect of the helmet debate in all its minutiae over many years, yet still has randomers regularly dropping by with the notion that they're some kind of authority on the issue. Seriously, read the thread, this is not the obvious argument you seem to think it is.

CramCycle · 14-05-2020 7:19pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Wonderful contribution in reply to my 1st post, very smart if a bit lacking in deduction, yes that's exactly what I meant by out and about (while cycling), honestly :rolleyes:

And then you get five thanks!
What kind of a forum is this?

You posted a statement, made a claim without proof, clearly have not read the entire thread and then wonder why no one thanked your post?

Helmets - the definitive thread.. ** Mod Note - Please read Opening Post **

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Helmets - the definitive thread.. Mod Note - Please read Opening Post