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Helmets - the definitive thread.. ** Mod Note - Please read Opening Post **

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    #2162
    Grassey
    Registered Users Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Grassey


    Nah, probably just ski/snowboarders and cars. You never know....


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    #2163
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,478 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i fully expect that the results of the testing will be that volvo will announce that the biggest factor relating to cyclist safety is that their cars are too big.


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    #2164
    doozerie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    Chips Lovell wrote: »
    Turkeys never vote for Christmas

    I used to believe that, and then ...Trump, Brexit, the real prospect of Boris Johnson becoming the mini-Trump of the UK, Peter Casey actually got some votes, etc.

    ...I'm searching the Internet for a sufficiently sad-faced emoji but can't find one as apparently we've not sunk so low as to need such a sad one before...

    It does occur to me though that the scientific integrity of Volvo's testing could benefit from some real-life dummies being used. Coincidentally I have the basis of a useful list of volunteers above.


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    #2165
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,478 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    carlsberg have shot an ad featurig mads mikkelsen on a bike. there's a UK and ROI only version where he's wearing a helmet.

    https://twitter.com/LkCycleDesign/status/1137479873272918016


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    #2166
    tigerboon
    Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭tigerboon


    rubadub wrote: »
    http://www.copenhagenize.com/2009/08/walking-helmet-is-good-helmet.html

    gohjelm.png



    http://casr.adelaide.edu.au/developments/headband/
    headband2.jpgheadband1.jpg

    Am I missing something here? I don't see anything suggesting this is a joke. How's NASA doing with the Mars exploration because I think I want to go there.


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    #2167
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,373 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    tigerboon wrote: »
    Am I missing something here?
    quite possibly you are, many are set in their ways, might depend on what age you are, when I grew up the notion of wearing helmet while cycling was utterly ludicrous, unless you were a pro and they wore flimsy ones at the time.
    tigerboon wrote: »
    I don't see anything suggesting this is a joke.
    I am genuinely not sure if the Danish one was meant to be legit, if not a government idea I would not think it is meant to be a joke. I know the bondi one is not legit but I do not consider it a joke, it is properly made to get people to actually bother to think for a minute.

    I would be interested in hearing you explain your comments a bit more, e.g. what activities do you think it advisable to wear a helmet or other protection doing, and what would you think to be laughable/"a joke" to wear some type of protection doing, and maybe explain the level of protection where it becomes a joke.


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    #2168
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,478 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    rubadub wrote: »
    I would be interested in hearing you explain your comments a bit more, e.g. what activities do you think it advisable to wear a helmet or other protection doing, and what would you think to be laughable/"a joke" to wear some type of protection doing, and maybe explain the level of protection where it becomes a joke.
    it may be arrogant for me to put words in tigerboon's mouth, but i suspect him expanding on his comments will basically involve 'i just said i think it looks stupid'. asking for a policy paper based on the comment above is a bit of a stretch.


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    #2169
    Daroxtar
    Registered Users Posts: 4,322 ✭✭✭Daroxtar


    I mostly come onto this forum to check in and chat about stuff that's enjoyable, look at nice scenery pics and bike porn so I usually stay out of threads like this or close passes or any other Joe Duffy type of flamey crap but just this once I'm going to dip my toe in. Or head as the case may be.

    As has been mentioned by me a few times, I got a nice wallop at the start of May. Touched wheels at about 40kmh and hit the road hard. 2 broken ribs, collapsed lung, hairline fracture of the elbow, grade 3 AC joint separation. 4 nights in hospital, 7 weeks (and counting) off work.

    I've replayed the crash over and over in my head and while the split seconds before it are vague, mostly due to their non-eventfulness, I can very clearly remember the bang. I can't tell you exactly what my angle of trajectory was but it was very much head and shoulder first. I distinctly felt the thump on the head just as much as the body. Sunglasses went in bits. But no head injury.

    Here's the outside of the helmet. 7qPmqiF.jpg

    Here's the inside. Not sure how clear that looks but it's cracked in 3 or 4 spots just around the temple.
    WcYOZ2x.jpg

    Without the helmet, best case scenario I'd have left my ear and half my scalp in Wicklow, and that is by far the best case scenario.

    Edit: forgot to mention that the helmet was 3 weeks old. Money well spent IMHO and Endura have a crash policy so I'll be buying another one soon.


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    #2170
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    I don't think the use of helmets by people cycling at 40km/h is all that controversial, to be honest. They're largely accepted to reduce linear accleration to a modest extent. It's the notion that they will prevent widespread head injuries that's in contention, because, based on population-level statistics, they don't *seem* to have any effect.

    Which isn't that suprising, perhaps, given that most serious head injuries for people who aren't racing or training arise from collisions with motorised vehicles.

    Glad to hear you're ok too.


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    #2171
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Something about that Carlsberg ad:
    https://twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1140034888588042245

    They did show the previous ad of him cycling on a banquet table (or something like that) unmodified.


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    #2172
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭plodder


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    Something about that Carlsberg ad:
    https://twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1140034888588042245

    They did show the previous ad of him cycling on a banquet table (or something like that) unmodified.
    Is this actually true? I have only seen the ad without the helmet.


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    #2173
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    I might have seen it on one of the UK channels. But I definitely never saw a helmet CGI'd onto him in that version of the ad.

    This one:
    http://www.adstasher.com/2017/04/carlsberg-danish-way-explained-by.html

    I had assumed till now that the CGI'd helmet version of the new ad was a UK ad, just carried over without modification to the Irish market, as is the usual practice. Not sure now.


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    #2174
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,494 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    I've only seen the helmetless ad, starting to suspect it's not a true story and someone in Carlsberg is getting free publicity


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    #2175
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    I did see the helmeted version. It did look CGI'd, but I only saw it out of the corner of my eye.


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    #2176
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,478 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    CramCycle wrote: »
    I've only seen the helmetless ad, starting to suspect it's not a true story and someone in Carlsberg is getting free publicity
    not the most effective way though really, it's not exactly gone viral except among cyclists, who wouldn't necessarily end up drinking more carlsberg as a result.


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    #2177
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,373 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    CramCycle wrote: »
    I've only seen the helmetless ad, starting to suspect it's not a true story and someone in Carlsberg is getting free publicity
    tomasrojo wrote: »
    I did see the helmeted version. It did look CGI'd, but I only saw it out of the corner of my eye.

    here it is
    https://twitter.com/LkCycleDesign/status/1137494268669562880


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    #2178
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    https://twitter.com/LkCycleDesign/status/1139079361989173250



    So, given how unlikely it was they gave the ASA of Ireland much, if any, consideration when deciding how to tailor the ad, they tailored the ad for the UK market. Maybe based on negative feedback from the previous ad. A lot of decisions based on depicting cyclists in advertising and entertainment seem to be based around avoiding charges of being irresponsible.


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    #2179
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭plodder


    So, it's true then. I think I've seen it on Sky and it didn't have the addition. Now, I think about it though, I remember an ad for milk (of all things) that had kids bouncing on a trampoline. After the ad was out for a while the trampoline suddenly acquired one of those safety nets. Crazy stuff imo.


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    #2180
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Podcast about the Irish Times 70% front-page story. I haven't listened to it yet; references the irishcycle.com article:
    Paul Cullen is the Health Editor of the Irish Times. His article headlined Almost 70% of cyclists without helmet at time of head trauma, appeared on the front page of IT last month.


    The article was sharply criticised in online discussion, including in this article by Cian Ginty.

    In our discussion, I mentioned a number of articles and scientific studies, including this analysis of the reporting of deaths of vulnerable road users by Joe Lindsey, and this study by Kelcie Ralph et al. I also mentioned that international and Irish studies indicate - contrary to popular imagination - motorists break traffic laws more frequently than cyclists.
    https://blog.hereshow.ie/2019/10/heres-how-93-bike-heads/#more-1529


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    #2181
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,478 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    bit of a mic drop in this thread about helmets:

    https://twitter.com/FrazerGoodwin/status/1189858532889374721


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    #2182
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,373 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    Wearing a cycle helmet may increase risk of injury, says new research


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    #2183
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,896 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    Smacked my head off a low overhead pipe today entering our car park.

    Helmet came in use for once


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    #2184
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,494 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    On my old cycle route there was a low bridge. Never hit it once without my helmet bit a few times when I did have one on, the helmet hit the arch as I went through. Nothing serious, just made contact.

    I always wonder, and there is no way to know, how many 'lucky I had my helmet on' stories simply wouldn't have happened if there was no helmet.

    A question with no possible answer, Pigeons, let me introduce Mr. Cat.


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    #2185
    Kander
    Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭Kander


    On the look out for a new helmet. Anyone have any experience on the below from halfords?

    https://www.halfords.ie/cycling/bike-helmets/adult-bike-helmets/boardman-rd-9-0-helmet-yellow-black


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    #2186
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,478 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    CramCycle wrote: »
    I always wonder, and there is no way to know, how many 'lucky I had my helmet on' stories simply wouldn't have happened if there was no helmet.
    how many head injuries are due to people wearing high heels?


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    #2187
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,494 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    how many head injuries are due to people wearing high heels?

    How many are due to cleats, to that cup of water/coffee you spilled but forgot to wipe up, a shower mat not being as effective as you might have thought. This is why I like population based statistics in these discussions over anecdotal stories (and I have loads). Yes, some helmets my have saved lives, conversely they may have added to an injury. On a case by case basis, it would still take a huge amount of investigation to be sure.

    My helmet story above, did I hit my helmet because my head was now bigger and my proprioception had only taken into account my own head size, was it because I was more risk taking with my helmet. Was it simply that I worked nights and coincidentally happened to not be as awake as I should have been. Was I lucky and would have hit my head that day regardless, there is no way to know, I have my opinions but they are misleading and unproveable.

    With population data analysis, there are huge confounding factors but they don't change the overall facts. The helmet data for places with mandatory helmet laws, the confounding factors are numerous and a wide scale survey might show some insight into why head injury rates / cyclist go up or don't change. There are loads of possibilities and would require alot of investigation. People like to look at these confounding factors as excuses for what the helmet law does and say that it is still a good idea, just read the comments on the article above.

    They do however forget the one thing that is not affected in measurement or analysis by a confounding factor, the one thing that does change and will have an affect on the population health. And that is the dramatic decrease in numbers. There are reasons for this, lots of people have opinions, most of them probably relate to some of them. The thing is though, it does not matter. This one fact is the only real indicator that is needed that mandatory helmet laws are a bad idea. Leave it upto a personal choice and stop annoying people who choose not too. They certainly are not causing any increase in risk to anyone else and there is no proof in the general population that they are either increasing or decreasing the risk to themselves. From a H&S perspective, it is a no brainer.


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    #2188
    mamax
    Registered Users Posts: 877 ✭✭✭mamax


    Kander wrote: »
    On the look out for a new helmet. Anyone have any experience on the below from halfords?

    https://www.halfords.ie/cycling/bike-helmets/adult-bike-helmets/boardman-rd-9-0-helmet-yellow-black

    I am currently using the older version of that one and watching a few online for the price to drop, decent helmet and fits me ok.

    I had a crash some months back on a group ride at almost 50kph and the helmet cracked in 3 places, my body was black and blue and covered in road rash, my head did not have a scratch, no concussion, and I remember being fully aware of everything.
    My opinion is you really won't understand how a helmet can prevent an injury unless you have been in a crash and see first hand the damage caused to the helmet upon impact, I believe if I wasn't wearing a helmet that day I would probably have suffered massive injuries to my head.
    I will never cycle without one.


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    #2189
    NeedMoreGears
    Registered Users Posts: 1,418 ✭✭✭NeedMoreGears


    I'm under no illusions as to the usefulness of a helmet if I am hit by a vehicle. It should reduce head injury - whether the reduction is enough to save me is not certain. There are also plenty of other ways such a collision could kill me without head trauma.

    Having said that, for me the helmet thing is fairly straightforward. I've had a number of falls from the bike, and in some of those I've hit my head fairly hard off the ground. I was wearing a helmet and I am convinced the helmet saved me from a lot of pain and stitches. That level of injury reduction is enough to make wearing a helmet worthwhile for me, even if wearing it makes me bump into things now and again.


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    #2190
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    mamax wrote: »

    I had a crash some months back on a group ride at almost 50kphand the helmet cracked in 3 places,
    .
    ..
    ...
    I will never cycle without one.

    Yes agree - if doing this type of cycling (sports cycling I would presume) then would certainly be advisable.


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    #2191
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,478 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Comparing cycling at 50km/h and at 20km/h is a sixfold difference in energy your body would have to absorb in the event of a crash.


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